I am preparing a GURPS fantasy campaign and thinking about rules that I remember  that could use a bit of modification.

Overall, I really like the combat system. The way sequence works and some situations that have cropped up in past campaigns have given me the idea to change the standard sequence method for initiative just a bit.

Per the rules, the highest sequence combatants go first. The faster people get to act before the slower ones. This makes sense generally so I don't want to change that. For Monty Python fans, what I'm trying to fix is the Lancelot problem.

Here is the problem:

There is an encounter happening between fighter A and fighter B. Fighter A walking slowly with a loaded crossbow at the ready. His sequence is 5. Fighter B is moving slowly forward with a broadsword. His sequence is 6.

Both fighters are aware of imminent danger and neither is surprised. Fighter B rounds a corner and sees fighter A 18 feet away......and we enter combat sequence.

Fighter B goes first and promptly (with his speed of 6) runs right up to fighter A and slices into him with a wild swing. Meanwhile fighter A stands there with a loaded ready crossbow and watches fighter B run right up and gut him. Despite not being surprised, fighter A has no option but to watch fighter B close and kill him due to sequence. Had combat been started earlier then fighter A could have set up opportunity fire on an area and gotten to shoot before fighter B could take a step.

My proposed solution is to retain sequence order but tier move maneuvers below the others. Everyone in sequence would get a maneuver (including one step) before the move manuvers are executed. The move actions would then take place in sequence order. So choosing to cover more ground before doing something else means that your action will happen later.

In the example above, this means that fighter B still gets to act first, but IF he chooses to move in and attack, fighter A will have a chance to fire (but not aim) before he gets there. He could choose to hurl his sword at fighter A instead and thus attack first.

So really the option to do something first still resides with the higher sequence fighters, but covering a shitload of open ground won't be one of them.

Thoughts, pitfalls?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;594233There is an encounter happening between fighter A and fighter B. Fighter A walking slowly with a loaded crossbow at the ready. His sequence is 5. Fighter B is moving slowly forward with a broadsword. His sequence is 6.

Both fighters are aware of imminent danger and neither is surprised. Fighter B rounds a corner and sees fighter A 18 feet away......and we enter combat sequence.


Fighter B goes first and promptly (with his speed of 6)

Nope Fighter A goes first. If he walking slowly with a loaded crossbow he doing a step (moving at 1 yd/sec) and wait maneuver with his wait action "covering" the area ahead of him. This is one Page 360 GURPS Book2 Campaigns. If Fighter A was standing still he could use the opportunity fire rules on page 390 to cover a much larger area.

THe only time Fighter B would go first if he also moving carefully by performing a step and wait. In which case it makes perfect sense that the faster fighter would go first if they are being equally careful.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;594233runs right up to fighter A and slices into him with a wild swing.

In GURPS 4e Wild Swings are limited to blindshot to the left, right, and rear of the fighter. What you are describing is a Move and Attack, which is at a -4 to skill with a cap of 9. Plus he cannot use retreat as a defense option and is limited to Dodge and Block for Active Defense. Page 366.

If you use the Extra Effort optional rules and GURPS Martial Arts, Fighter B could expend a Fatigue point and execute a Heroic Charge. He can attack at full skill although still has the defense limitation noted above.

In short Fighter B in a bad situation and is making a desperate attack to get out of it with multiple disadvantages to him if he doesn't pull it off.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;594233Thoughts, pitfalls?

I think GURPS covers the situation you described. And that it is logical if that both fighters are being equally careful that the faster one would move.

Quote from: estar;594273Nope Fighter A goes first. If he walking slowly with a loaded crossbow he doing a step (moving at 1 yd/sec) and wait maneuver with his wait action "covering" the area ahead of him. This is one Page 360 GURPS Book2 Campaigns. If Fighter A was standing still he could use the opportunity fire rules on page 390 to cover a much larger area.

THe only time Fighter B would go first if he also moving carefully by performing a step and wait. In which case it makes perfect sense that the faster fighter would go first if they are being equally careful.

Not quite. How can fighter A be waiting when neither character has had a turn? You don't get to choose a maneuver until combat begins. So if we start and A is already waiting then he got a turn before B got to act.

If there is no surprise then the call to go into sequence is when combatant's can start choosing maneuvers. If A can say he was already waiting then a mage can say he was already concentrating, etc.

Quote from: estar;594273In GURPS 4e Wild Swings are limited to blindshot to the left, right, and rear of the fighter. What you are describing is a Move and Attack, which is at a -4 to skill with a cap of 9. Plus he cannot use retreat as a defense option and is limited to Dodge and Block for Active Defense. Page 366.

Yes. I was using 3E terminology. Oops.

Quote from: estar;594273I think GURPS covers the situation you described. And that it is logical if that both fighters are being equally careful that the faster one would move.

Oh the faster one should certainly get to act first in any case. My point was that in the 1 second time frame if that action involves covering open ground then the faster fighter is giving up going first to do an extended move. Not counting supers I can't see a regular guy covering 15-20 feet and getting a melee attack before someone can pull a trigger or release a drawn arrow unless there was combat paralysis or mental stun involved.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;594328Not quite. How can fighter A be waiting when neither character has had a turn? You don't get to choose a maneuver until combat begins. So if we start and A is already waiting then he got a turn before B got to act.

Remember GURPS is about realistic emulation. Anything you can do in real life you are able to do in GURPS. Whether you are formally in combat or not, you can still be moving slowly, "waiting" for something to happen. The very thing the step and wait maneuver is designed to handle.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;594328If there is no surprise then the call to go into sequence is when combatant's can start choosing maneuvers. If A can say he was already waiting then a mage can say he was already concentrating, etc.

And the player of the mage can do just that, except after a second for most spells the Mage has to make a spell skill roll and blow the fatigue. If you are generous you can say that he breaks his own concentration which dumps the spell roll but he still has to expend the fatigue. So after a few seconds he going to be too tired to be any use to the party.

So there is natural consequences built in that prevent the player of a mage from declaring, "I am always concentrating".

Quote from: Exploderwizard;594328Oh the faster one should certainly get to act first in any case. My point was that in the 1 second time frame if that action involves covering open ground then the faster fighter is giving up going first to do an extended move. Not counting supers I can't see a regular guy covering 15-20 feet and getting a melee attack before someone can pull a trigger or release a drawn arrow unless there was combat paralysis or mental stun involved.

A Move and Attack is a sudden explosive movement ending in a desperate attack in ONE SECOND.

Fighter A with the crossbow has to aim with a snapshot and pull the trigger at a target barreling at him at full speed. If he not as quick then Fighter B is going to be into him. It very much plausible.

And something I experienced myself on both sides in a decade and a half of Society of Creative Anachronism and Boffer Live-Action roleplaying. And earlier still I played football and got experience in just how fast and far people can move and react in a second.