Hi there. I'm new to this site. This is my first ever post... and in the interest of full disclosure: one I copied almosts verbatum from another RPG site I posted on for the first time today. I did stop to correct some grammatical errors, though. Anyway I'm just trying to cast a wide net. I anticipate making frequent returns both there and here.

I'm creating a tabletop RPG. I have all the core mechanics down I've established some guidelines balancing whatever content can be thought up. Basically I've got a complete system that is only lacking content. Unfortunately it's still lacking quite a bit and I've fallen into a creative rut.

While my game does allow players to pick and choose from a variety of classes that are open to all characters, I also want each race to have some meaningful differences that will really influence how that character is played. Elves, dwarves, and orcs all look pretty human, but they're definitely not. Each has some extraordinary traits that really set them apart not just from humans, but other races as well. This is something I want to give players the opportunity to accentuate and improve upon, making their characters more elven, more dwarven, or more whatever race they picked. I call these race specific classes "Legacies."

At the moment I have a lot of playable races planned for my game: Dragons, Dwarves, Elves, Gnolls, Gnomes, Goblins, Humans, Kobolds, Ogres, Orcs, and a few original ideas I'll keep to myself for now.

So tell me what you imagine the Legacy of one or more of these races would be. And races can certainly have more than more. To get the ball rolling I'll provide some examples of what I've done so far.



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Kobold Dragon Clan Legacy.
It’s a well known fact that kobolds are distantly dragons. With proper meditation, alchemical treatment, or ingestion of dragon blood a kobold can awaken this latent connection, manifesting an increase in size, strength, intellect, and magic. Those truly dedicated to stoking the fires within may eventually develop fiery breath and wings as well.

Kobold Viper Clan Legacy.
It was recently discovered that ancient Basilisk blood also runs through the veins of most koboldkind. When this forgotten heritage is activated a kobold's reflexes, agility, and flexibility will dramatically increase. Those who dig deep into this mysterious, long forgotten aspect will also develop large fangs, a venomous bite and equally venomous magics, along with enhanced senses and eventually a cobra like hood to stun and mesmerize weak minded foes.

Both of these legacies are mutually exclusive--that is, if you pick one you can't choose the other.
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That's about the level of detail I'm looking for: just a rough concept to build from. You can format it however you want and narrative content is totally optional--you don't have to include stuff like "It was recently discovered basilisk blood blah, blah, blah" unless you want to. I'm just kind of out of ideas at this point. I need help to get my creatives juices flowing again.

I don't want you to constrain your thinking to game mechanics, which is why I haven't mentioned any, and I certainly don't want you to feel limited by existing stereotypes, either. Dwarves usually live in mountains, right? But what if they were seafaring pirates and vikings instead? Could "warchief" be an orcish legacy? Sure! Just as long as they still feel like dwarves or orcs, make up whatever you want.

I would also like to request help specifically with Gnomes, Goblins, Gnolls, and Ogres. I'm just drawing a blank for all of them and giving serious thought to removing them altogether. So tell me what you think it means to be one of these races--what makes them unique.

The only trouble with Race as Class is that there is some confusion when dealing with members of the race who are also in another class.

That sounds far more confusing than I meant it to sound.

What I mean is that if you have Goblin as a Class, how do you get a Goblin Fighter, Goblin Cleric, Goblin Shaman or whatever? Are they multi-class, with Goblin at a fixed level and the other class increasing? Do you just say that other races cannot have non-race classes, so no Goblin Fighters?

Quote from: soltakss;906085...if you have Goblin as a Class, how do you get a Goblin Fighter, Goblin Cleric, Goblin Shaman or whatever? Are they multi-class, with Goblin at a fixed level and the other class increasing? Do you just say that other races cannot have non-race classes, so no Goblin Fighters?

Yes, it would basically work like multiclassing. You could have a kobold with 3 levels in the Fighter class and 4 levels in the Dragon Clan legacy.

There will be a variety of near universal class options that all but a few races can choose from, just like D&D. A few of the more unique races will have more limited options; it would be difficult for a Dragon to take the Fighter class, for example, since swords and shields are more of a humanoid thing, but magical classes like Cleric, Potatomancer, or Wizard would still be open to them.

Quote from: Sporknuggets;906088... it would be difficult for a Dragon to take the Fighter class, for example, since swords and shields are more of a humanoid thing, but magical classes like Cleric, Potatomancer, or Wizard would still be open to them.

I know it's just an example, and I tend to avoid literal classes as game mechanics, but I think it does make sense to have dragons who are fighters versus dragons who are wizards, if that's something dragons in your world can do. Hmm, Puff the dragon potatomancer...

My issues with class mechanics tend to be more about disagreeing about what's appropriate for everyone. That is, the rule details tend to be inaccurate, it seems to me.

While species or race certainly is a class in the sense of nearly all members have certain properties or tendencies, what does it add to call them a "class" or to add the "multiclass" idea? Are you thinking of listing experience levels for races?

Quote from: Skarg;906180While species or race certainly is a class in the sense of nearly all members have certain properties or tendencies, what does it add to call them a "class" or to add the "multiclass" idea?

Think of the orcish stereotype: big, angry, strong, savage, usually green; the Incredible Hulk. Now think of the elven stereotype: graceful, calm, all skill and style; the Legolas.

A Legacy should help a character live up to those archetypes. Here are some orcish examples...

Orc Berserker. No armor, an axe in each hand--the way an orc was meant to be. Unleash your bloodlust on the enemy: let the pain fuel your frenzy and hack them to bits in them to bits until your dying breath. Strike fear into the hearts of others with your mighty roar before you beat their friends to death with their own corpse.

Orc Warrior. Inch thick armor, pauldrons like fortress battlements, and a weapon the size of horse. All but the most well placed or dishonorably sneaky attacks bounce off your plate without notice. Shield allies with your invulnerable frame and make your enemies pay for thinking their pointy little sticks are any match for a real weapon!

Orc Warchief. Charging into battle is for lesser orcs--battles are fought by warriors, but won by leaders. If your allies wish to prevail they will do as you command without hesitation; if they falter you will remind them of their strength and courage or humiliate them forward with your own. The enemy is as much your tool as the warriors at your side: cleave them in twain and hurl their bits at the pitiful, cowering wretches who once follow them--make them believe their struggle is futile and it will be so.

Orcs are big, angry, strong, and savage. All three of these example legacies emphasize those traits in different ways, fulfilling three different "character fantasies," that really mesh with the big, angry, strong, savage archetypal orc.

Quote from: Skarg;906180Are you thinking of listing experience levels for races?

No. Race is just a word you put on your character sheet. A legacy is a set of traits and abilities (exactly like a class) that are only available to a particular race.

You will never level up your race; you will be able to level up the legacies your race has access to.

Quote from: Skarg;906180I know it's just an example, and I tend to avoid literal classes as game mechanics, but I think it does make sense to have dragons who are fighters versus dragons who are wizards, if that's something dragons in your world can do. Hmm, Puff the dragon potatomancer...

I agree with this with one proviso. Well, two really. When a set of abilities is common to the race, they don't need specialists in that area, ergo no justification for class. Like Elf Rangers. I don't think a forest-frolicking race needs a specialized forester class. It's kind of redundant. The other is far less controversial--obviously you don't allow classes that are the antithesis of the race either. An anti-magical race isn't going to have practicing mages.

Quote from: Sporknuggets;906241No. Race is just a word you put on your character sheet. A legacy is a set of traits and abilities (exactly like a class) that are only available to a particular race.

You will never level up your race; you will be able to level up the legacies your race has access to.

Unless I'm missing something, this is kind of like old school Paladins and Monks, which are human-only classes. So now there are exclusive classes for other races as well. Which raises the question--do you have any plans of creating human legacy classes?

Quote from: Lunamancer;906243Which raises the question--do you have any plans of creating human legacy classes?

Yes. In fact that is exactly the point of this thread. I am asking for help in coming up with legacies.

I do appreciate thoughts and critiques about my game--and don't think I won't appreciate more--but it's not actually what I'm looking for.

I am struggling to come up with ideas for legacies. I am asking for help in coming up with more.

Tell me what you think being an orc is about. Or a gnoll, human, dragon, ogre, etcetera. Then tell me how you would build a class around that idea.

Quote from: Sporknuggets;906088A few of the more unique races will have more limited options; it would be difficult for a Dragon to take the Fighter class, for example, since swords and shields are more of a humanoid thing, but magical classes like Cleric, Potatomancer, or Wizard would still be open to them.

Dragons don't need swords and shields, they had teeth and claws. I would give them the Fighter Class but restrict weapons to natural weapons - Claws, teeth, wing buffet, fire breath and so on.

Oh I see, so just classes that are race-specific. Maybe you could even be a human who was raised by orcs to be an Orc Warrior, but you'd need to distinguish if any traits of the class are really race-specific, or make a sub-class of "Human raised as Orc Warrior"... if you even get into that at all.

I thought I would have this ready sooner, but today turned out to be busier than I thought.

Here is a link to a document summarized legacies of the races I've mentioned so far: Click!

As an aside, I hope posting outgoing links isn't against the forum rules. I did quickly peruse the rules, but if I missed that part I can certainly post everything here instead.

You've got a real good start there, lots of fun opportunities for classes. I won't dive into everyone of them, just highlight some points that I felt stuck out.

Overall I like the different approach to classes. I'd say you could easily go for a game where race and class is integrated, with no real need for 'core' classes that anyone can take. If there's a dwarf-fighter variant, an elf-warrior legacy, a human-warrior legacy etc. I don't see the need for a generic warrior-legacy. The player picks a race and sticks to what classes that race allows.

I like your Kobold variant legacies. Especially the Scavenger I like. Kobolds are pretty popular too, good to see a game that gives them some love.

The Gnomes and the Goblins kind of cross over a lot. I've never really liked gnomes personally, so I haven't thought out what themes might fit them. How about a leprechaun/Tom Bombadil variant, a nature spirit with close ties to animals, good luck magic and... stuff.
The Goblins I'd run as a kind of Siberian/Mongol pastiche, with good riding skills, bows and clever tactics to make up for their lack of armor and powerful knightly heavy cavalry. Maybe a kind of ranger/barbarian combo?

Dwarves, elves and humans seem fine. I like the twist on dwarfs as a sea-folk, maybe ramp up the contrast between dwarves and elves with the dwarves having big, slow turtle ships and emphasizing trade and skill - a merchant/specialist class with some navigation related bonusses? Then give the elves fast attack craft and a tendency to flamboyant action. The Errol Flynn variant of pirate, fencing and acrobatics should be part of such a class.

Dragons... to me they've always been a kind of force-of-nature, huge unknowable ancients more like Lovecraft's eldritch gods than a truly comprehensible race as such. Don't know how handle them as player characters, unless the game was specifically crafted for it.

Ogres - there's the distinct disparity between Ogre mages and regular smash-and-tear ogres. I've seen the Ogres done with some resemblance to Japanese Oni (as depicted in popular culture, not in actual Japanese myth). A barbarian Ogre, an Ogre Mage and a katana-wielding blademaster kind of legacy would make a nice trio of legacies fulfilling distinct roles in-universe.

Another thought - RPG classes tend to be about culture & training, so I might think classes wouldn't be so much divided by race as by nation or region/culture (with some other prereqs which might include race). Or, that classes would not be fundamentally race-limited, but could/would often be limited by various prerequisites, which might include race but really would be limited by place. To use an Earth example, Ninjas were available in medieval Japan but not elsewhere, and in Japan some were Samurai but none were Knights or Voodoo Obeamen or Viking Berserkers.

Of course historically (back to B/X D&D or so) the racial class model has worked out fine. The problem is that all characters of the same type tend to be similar unless a bunch of variants are created. (E.g. elven fighter, elven wizard, elven fighter-wizard, elven cleric, and so on.) That can be a lot of work, but if you get it developed should play well.

Quote from: soltakss;906085The only trouble with Race as Class is that there is some confusion when dealing with members of the race who are also in another class.

That sounds far more confusing than I meant it to sound.

What I mean is that if you have Goblin as a Class, how do you get a Goblin Fighter, Goblin Cleric, Goblin Shaman or whatever? Are they multi-class, with Goblin at a fixed level and the other class increasing? Do you just say that other races cannot have non-race classes, so no Goblin Fighters?

I was tinkering with something like this the other day for a potential Dresden Files game I want to run. I want to have players have the chance at being bitten by a vampire or werewolf and introducing a "vampire class" and a "werewolf class" into my game.

My thought is to give vampire and werewolf hit dice type and a sequence of powers which can be gained with level advancement. So, a person could be a 2nd level fighter/3rd level vampire (for example) and gain abilities from each "class" appropriate to the levels gained. If the person is fine with progression as a vampire, say, by 10th level he might be a fighter-7/vampire-3 or if he wants to unlock more vampire powers he might be a fighter-5/vampire-5 or fighter-2/vampire-8 or whatever.

A bit of work, perhaps, but it could make for interesting character decisions. The drawback might be that some races (goblin, for example) might not have many cool abilities to unlock so players might not advance very far before they decide they aren't going to gain enough benefits to continue advancing in a racial "class" any more. The solution here might be to develop racial classes a few levels above that of the standard monster. (So if typical vampire is 9th level maybe a vampire "class" could go to 11th or 12th level. If goblin is a 1st level monster maybe a goblin "class" could go to 3rd-4th level. That kind of thing.)

Just me thinking out loud....

This is sort of how the Adventurer, Conqueror, King System (ACKS) handles race/class.  Each race has its own set of dedicated classes (elven bladedancer, dwarven craftpriest, etc) that highlight different aspects of what sets that race apart from humans.  Being a human-centric world, all of the "default" classes (fighter, cleric, mage, etc.) assume that the character is human. If not, they are one of the race-specific classes (some of whom mimic the "human" class equivalent, with a tweak or two).

I was thinking the same thing. Between the ACKS core book and the Player's Companion there are about 30-ish classes developed. Mostly, human, but elves and dwarves have 5 classes each, and there are a fewo one-offs for gnomes, lizard men and such. The ACKS Player's Companion has a custom class toolkit that allows the GM or player to create their own classes. One of the concepts used there is the idea of racial build points in constructing classes.  At the basic race build level there are attributes gained that are common to all members of the race. As you increase the race build points used to create a class, the xp cost goes up, but the class starts to reflect more and more the archetype of that race. A class built with "Dwarf 4" has more proficiencies and is better at them than a class built with "Dwarf 1". A class built with "Elf 4" is better at magic than one built with "Elf 2". The OP might consider doing something similar.