TheRPGSite

So.. for those of you who haven't been sitting on the edge of your seats watching the drama unfold, here's some background quotes:

Spoiler

Quote from: Panzerkraken;568653I'll make that claim.  My claim is that a 10th level fighter with a +2 Strength +3 Composite longbow and +2 arrows, without any bow feats or specs (meaning 2nd or 3rd edition, yes) would probably smoke an equivalently statted 10th level wizard in a normal combat environment (meaning that there's more going on than just a duel between the two).  And god only help the poor wizard if the Fighter gets in close to him.

Quote from: MGuy;568660Well firstly while you probably want to exclude 3rd edition from your claim that a fighter stands on even ground with a wizard in a normal combat situation because a straight fighter can't handle higher level encounters in his CR racket in high level play without perhaps being optimized to do so (I say perhaps because if we're talking Core Fighter he's completely screwed) while a wizard operates fine at all CRs. The fact that you bash charOp when the Fighter in 3rd demonstrably needs Optimization just to survive immediately puts your entire post under suspicion.  So you may be able to make the claim for 2nd though there've been some arguments against that by people who know 2nd better than I (or at all) that even in 2nd it may not be true.

Quote from: CRKrueger;568702Thunderdome!
:popcorn:

Quote from: jeff37923;568737Put up or shut up.

Kaelik was all talk and no action, which left Spike and the rest of us very disappointed, don't be like Kaelik. Will you be the one to redeem the Denners?

Quote from: MGuy;568749I don't like Kaelik and I'm not going to "redeem" anyone. I need to know what the ground rules are before I can participate in anything though.If this is another one of those "Your wizard spawns next to the fighter with no equipment, running buffs, final destination" encounters people have cooked up on here then I'm going to opt out.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;568763Ground rules then, itemized:

Stats are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 place to suit.

Hit points to be rolled by the adjudicator or someone who can show a verified source (I don't play PbP games, so idk what a verifiable source is, but there's some around.)

Everything comes only from the 3.5 PHB and DMG with all errata at the point of last printing.  All class and feats as presented in the book, no house rules or common adjustments.

Single class characters only.  You = Wizard, Me = Fighter

Level is 10.  Experience is 45,001.  

Player wealth from the DMG for starting characters at the given level.  That means 49,000gp

You receive the baseline spells in your book from the wizard class as well as the automatic 2 spells that you have access to at the point when you level up, per level.  If you want more, you can buy them with starting gold.  Per the DMG it costs 20g x Spell Level x Caster level (pg 198 and 107 of the DMG).  It's fair to assume you can find someone of the absolute minimum caster level for a given spell.

I have to buy anything that I want to have, obviously, with the same starting money.  Included in my equipment will be a +2 Composite +3 Strength Longbow and +2 arrows.  Archery will NOT be the defined focus of my character's feats.

The builds and magic item purchases are reviewed for being 'playable' by the adjudicator.   Playable means that it's not a one shot pony.  The character could reasonably be said to be an adventurer, and their selection of feats and skills represents someone who would actually be a functioning member of a party.

If you have any additions?

Quote from: MGuy;568918I have a major hate on for rolling HP but I'll let that one slide because I only care about it enough to make the gripe.

Everything else except the no "one shot pony" thing is clear cut for me. I'm a wizard. I can prepare for one encounter or a dozen in a given day and can take steps (especially if I'm a solo adventurer) to make sure I have about as many encounters as I want in a given day. You have to give me conditions for which I'm going to be doing battle. Do I know I'm fighting today? Do I plan on having multiple fights or am I going to skate by fights? Also how many win conditions are there? Do I HAVE to kill the fighter in question or do I have options to end the fight on other terms? IE: Fighter can no longer effectively fight me, becomes my slave, is put out of commission long enough for me to get on with my day, and any assortment of other not particularly lethal fight ending conditions.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;568923Rolling for HP is one of the basic concepts of the game, per the PHB.  For a fighter, the potential access to higher hp is one of their class advantages, and a limiter for Wizards, so it's part of the overall setup.  That's not a snipe, just a clarification.

To me, the question of spell selection seems like one for the adjudicator, but to reasonable defeat sounds fine to me.  There's no reason to limit a wizard to pure damage output.  

However, in the context of the setup, I think we could say it's at an early point in a day during a battle where we are both clearly defined as being on opposing sides, but where the major units of the combat aren't directly involved.  Think Samurai from opposing factions encountering each other.  

Neither of us knows that we're going to be specifically fighting the other, it's not a scheduled duel (even though we are doing just that...) and so equipment and spell selection should reflect that (i.e. I won't blow the whole wad on an amulet of spell resistance 19 to give myself ~45% resistance to your spells)  

In spell selection terms, it would depend on the base concept that you're working with, even for something like this there has to be some kind of character concept other than 'You're a wizard, Harry' to guide the selection.  But even in the scope of a battle it would be kind of silly of a wizard to be rolling with Domination in all his slots using various Metamagic feats. (obtuse example)

Also, who's gonna call this thing?  Can we get a David Bowie walk in scene?

(http://www.digitalbusstop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/David-Bowie-in-Zoolander.jpg)

That was just so I could reuse the zoolander pic :)

Quote from: MGuy;568974Cool, cool, and cool. I will claim now to be a conjurer then because I like summoning stuff. For the benefit of the battle I won't bring preconjured stuff to the table (though I would regularly for the purposes of a big fight I happen to be on because conjuring shit early saves me spells during the day).

Quote from: Opaopajr;569095Shouldn't Wish/Limited Wish be banned from this? Not all that up to date on 3e, so I don't know if a 10th lvl MU would have it yet, but you'd think this'd be an issue. Oh, what am I saying! There's probably swords out there with wish charges, too. Carry on!

Quote from: deadDMwalking;569107Limited wish is a 7th level spell, so Wizards don't get access until 13th level, though they could probably afford a scroll of it.  That said, it's main effect is to duplicate any other wizard spell of 6th level or lower (or non-wizard spell of 5th level or lower), so it's usually worthwhile just to have the spell you actually want.  

Quote from: MGuy;569154More accurately its just not worth using in a random one off battle against a creature that is about as dangerous to a wizard as a particularly dedicated golem.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;569202

Quote from: omegonthesane;569200The requirement is that you have access to the spell. If you can cast Limited Wish and use it to cast the spell... you have access to the spell. I could understand making it harder to craft with Limited Wish than crafting with the actual spell, to make up for the increased versatility, but I cannot see where you get the idea that it should be outright forbidden.

For the purposes of this?  For the same reason as I haven't spent 10000gp on a battalion of archers.  It breaks the scenario.

QuoteAnd this is why WBL was a noble experiment - having a common reference point for what the stats assume you have at each level, rather than relying on an unguided DM's whim to decide "how easy they are to come by".

I really only consider it useful at all when you're talking about an a) inexperienced DM who needs that sort of guideline  or b) making a character at a level higher than 1 where the DM can't be present to hold the player's hand through the whole thing.  I guess if you need that sort of thing, you do, but there's no reason to imply that the WBL process is inherently superior to a competent DM making decisions about his game and its power level.

QuoteYour lack of 3.5 knowledge is showing - as I said before, the +1 arrows do nothing if you already have a +1 bow, the enhancement bonuses specifically do not stack. So, a +1 composite longbow "only" costs 2400 GP, which at 5th level is reasonably likely if you have access to WBL.

Honestly, I've played every edition of D&D since 1e, and I never noticed that difference from 2e to 3e before.  And everyone I've ever played with has played it the same way; that the enhancement bonus on bows was just to hit and on arrows was just to damage.  Bully for you on picking up that glaring oversight on their part.  I'll make sure to let everyone that plays with me in the future know that it doesn't run like that in my games, in case they're someone who came into it late like you.

QuoteHowever it's telling that you think "half your disposable income on this one thing" isn't breaking the bank for a fighter's secondary weapon.

And what SHOULD I be spending it on?  Stocks?  Rental properties in Greyhawk?  It's wealth, not starting cash.  A fighter's wealth depends on his livelihood, which depends on his weapons.  So yeah, I like to splurge a bit on them.  Call me crazy.

In my games, even if I'm busy and can't guide someone through what equipment they start with, I insist that if they have a wealth level they're only allowed to start off with the starting cash for a character, everything else has to be spent on 'stuff'.  They're adventurers, not investment bankers.  

I'm sure that some random exploit of a purchase would have been a much more economical and power capable, but like we discussed in the earlier parts of the challenge, it's designed around making two characters who are adventurer quality, not some set of white-box stats.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;569269*Edit*  As an aside, I'm disappointed that once again this whole "fighter vs mage" thing has gone to just about 3e only.  When you only talk about 3e, you've fallen into their trap and validated their preconceived notion that the only edition prior to 4e is 3e.  So what's going to happen is these guys will once again start with the whole "Prior to 4e, the magic user was way more powerful than any fighter, we have this whole thread to prove it!" because they managed to only talk about 3e.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;569287Actually, I only choose 3.5 for our engagement because that's what I have the resources here for.  Well.. I have Hackmaster 5 as well, but that just seemed a little obtuse...  I would've been just as happy with 1e or 2e for the example.

Speaking of which, we still need a ref.  Noone wants to sit in for it?

Quote from: MGuy;569302How is it a trap when I specifically said he shouldn't use 3E as a bouncing board for the idea that fighters can keep up with wizards at higher level?

Anyways, I haven't even made the character yet. When and where am I suppose to put his stat block up at? All the notes I have so far is that he's going to be a conjurer, that apparently this is happening on a battlefield of some sort where after the fight my wizard has plans to do other things, and for some reason has it out for this particular fighter.

Quote from: jeff37923;569303I offer my services.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;569310I'd be willing to accept you if MGuy is.



My thought on it was that for review, so that we're not revealing things to each other, we'd send the character sheet to the Ref for review, and he can post them for public display once he's decided if they're acceptable or not.

Like I mentioned above, mine is done already (he's only a Fighter, after all).

Quote from: MGuy;569595If jeff is it I'll accept. I'll have it done sometime today (Thursday) after I get done running around.

In non-contextual review then, here's the specifics of what we're making the characters based on.  If you need clarification, it's in the Spoiler.

QuoteStats are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 place to suit.

Hit points to be rolled by the adjudicator or someone who can show a verified source (I don't play PbP games, so idk what a verifiable source is, but there's some around.)

Everything comes only from the 3.5 PHB and DMG with all errata at the point of last printing.  All class and feats as presented in the book, no house rules or common adjustments.

Single class characters only.  You = Wizard, Me = Fighter

Level is 10.  Experience is 45,001.  

Player wealth from the DMG for starting characters at the given level.  That means 49,000gp

You receive the baseline spells in your book from the wizard class as well as the automatic 2 spells that you have access to at the point when you level up, per level.  If you want more, you can buy them with starting gold.  Per the DMG it costs 20g x Spell Level x Caster level (pg 198 and 107 of the DMG).  It's fair to assume you can find someone of the absolute minimum caster level for a given spell.

I have to buy anything that I want to have, obviously, with the same starting money.  Included in my equipment will be a +2 Composite +3 Strength Longbow and +2 arrows.  Archery will NOT be the defined focus of my character's feats.

The builds and magic item purchases are reviewed for being 'playable' by the adjudicator.   Playable means that it's not a one shot pony.  The character could reasonably be said to be an adventurer, and their selection of feats and skills represents someone who would actually be a functioning member of a party.

Jeff will be the referee.  He takes care of all the die rolls hopefully using an online roller where he can post the rolls for people who want to audit the combat to see.  Once he's reviewed the characters, he will hang them on here.  Idk how Mguy is going to do his, but mine is a .pdf because I used an auto-calculating and tabulating sheet that I put together.

MGuy, have I missed anything?

If someone can suggest a good online die roller that will allow spectators to see the results, I'd appreciate it. With that we can begin.

Quote from: jeff37923;569665If someone can suggest a good online die roller that will allow spectators to see the results, I'd appreciate it. With that we can begin.

Easy to find this thread it was. Need die roller for HPs and I'll start on making my conjurer. Also are there any other important details about the scenario I should know? Like how long I've been on the battlefield prior? I need to know that so I know if I should be starting off with some spells missing other than the 10 hour long + buffs I'd likely be running. Other things like how dedicated I am to engagement? Am I on the battlefield as a contractual thing or do I care about the outcome of the battle outside of the one on one fight with the fighter?

Point of fact because Jeff is a liar. I did show up as soon as I found out, and then Spike just never actually did anything.

Quote from: MGuy;569682Easy to find this thread it was. Need die roller for HPs and I'll start on making my conjurer. Also are there any other important details about the scenario I should know? Like how long I've been on the battlefield prior? I need to know that so I know if I should be starting off with some spells missing other than the 10 hour long + buffs I'd likely be running. Other things like how dedicated I am to engagement? Am I on the battlefield as a contractual thing or do I care about the outcome of the battle outside of the one on one fight with the fighter?

I think that it would be better for the example to assume we both have a stake in the outcome of the battle, to prevent the 'well, I just teleport/ride away.  Noone wins, nyah nyah' effect.  Quitting the field should be considered to be acceptance of defeat.

On the subject of the setting, unless Jeff has come up with a different visualization of it (which I'll accede to if it's the case) I don't think that you need to spend spell slots on previous engagements, nor should you be thinking  that there's further engagements that you'll have to take part in if you don't want to, as I said, it's sort of like two samurai meeting on the battlefield in an anime or something, the rest of the battle is just backdrop as an excuse.

Couple of things.

Each combatant comes into the Thunderdome fresh, so you don't have to worry about missing spells.

I'd like to run at least three scenarios and then use the best two out of three for deciding who is the winner. The scenarios will each have a different map set-up, including one in which there will be very clear fields of fire and a more traditional cramped quarters dungeon environment. Do you both agree with this?

And now I have to run off to work. More later.

Fine with me

I have to say, using 3e rules, my money is on the wizard.  Using 1e, his only chance is for the fighter to fail a save or die (or hold person, etc).

If this was AD&D 1st the Druid would rule both their asses.

Likely it is going to boil down to the right choice of Magic Items especially in light of the requirement that they are both limited to a single class each. The right magic items will plug the gaps in your character abilities.

Quote from: estar;569795If this was AD&D 1st the Druid would rule both their asses.

If you think the 1e Druid would do that just try on the monstrosity that is the 3x Druid, that character class is quite possibly the strongest in the game in ANY version you put up.

Quote from: jeff37923;569788Couple of things.

Each combatant comes into the Thunderdome fresh, so you don't have to worry about missing spells.

I'd like to run at least three scenarios and then use the best two out of three for deciding who is the winner. The scenarios will each have a different map set-up, including one in which there will be very clear fields of fire and a more traditional cramped quarters dungeon environment. Do you both agree with this?

And now I have to run off to work. More later.

Its fine with me, Changes in the field actually don't effect my spell selection much though if in a dungeon it should be noted I would have the place already scouted, have found the fighter, and be seeking to straight up ambush him since the rest of whatever is of little/no importance to me.

Quote from: estar;569797Likely it is going to boil down to the right choice of Magic Items especially in light of the requirement that they are both limited to a single class each. The right magic items will plug the gaps in your character abilities.

Magic item wise I'm going with a non shenanigan style approach where I don't do things like completely abuse Use Magic Device. I'd like this to highlight my character's actual abilities instead of highlighting the potential abuses of WBL and Magic Item usage. If I relied too heavily on items I would feel like it would obscure the point.

Quote from: MGuy;569826Magic item wise I'm going with a non shenanigan style approach where I don't do things like completely abuse Use Magic Device. I'd like this to highlight my character's actual abilities instead of highlighting the potential abuses of WBL and Magic Item usage. If I relied too heavily on items I would feel like it would obscure the point.

Likewise, mine are pretty straightforward as well, we weren't talking about "I could totally just set a fighter up with a horn of blasting and negate your mage totally!" we were talking about if the characters would be an even match or not.

Quote from: estar;569797Likely it is going to boil down to the right choice of Magic Items especially in light of the requirement that they are both limited to a single class each. The right magic items will plug the gaps in your character abilities.

You may be correct, which is why I wanted to make it 2 out of 3 in different terrain environments. It occurred to me that detection of your opponent may also become a factor, as in ambushes or sniping.

Quote from: MGuy;569825Its fine with me, Changes in the field actually don't effect my spell selection much though if in a dungeon it should be noted I would have the place already scouted, have found the fighter, and be seeking to straight up ambush him since the rest of whatever is of little/no importance to me.

In all scenarios the characters will come in cold, without prior knowledge except for a brief overview given. Use of diviniation magic will happen at the scenario start (so they must be allocated for in the spell load-out) - while this does give advantage to the Wizard, does it seem fair to allow the Fighter to ask a specific yes or no question for each diviniation spell cast?

Quote from: jeff37923;570006In all scenarios the characters will come in cold, without prior knowledge except for a brief overview given. Use of diviniation magic will happen at the scenario start (so they must be allocated for in the spell load-out) - while this does give advantage to the Wizard, does it seem fair to allow the Fighter to ask a specific yes or no question for each diviniation spell cast?

I'm not sure why a fighter "would" get a random yes or no question. Its more of a common sense safety thing for my apparently soloing wizard (who happens to have a scroll of arcane eye since he doesn't have a team to help scout for him) to some how probe around dungeons, battlefields, etc at a safe distance before choosing to engage specific threats. It would of course be the first thing I'd do once the dungeon is entered to attempt to get to know the contents of it. Otherwise going dungeoneering alone would be foolish for him.

And yes, I did give him items that would be useless in the particular battle but useful for things like traveling, exploration, and quick escapes.

Quote from: MGuy;570084I'm not sure why a fighter "would" get a random yes or no question. Its more of a common sense safety thing for my apparently soloing wizard (who happens to have a scroll of arcane eye since he doesn't have a team to help scout for him) to some how probe around dungeons, battlefields, etc at a safe distance before choosing to engage specific threats. It would of course be the first thing I'd do once the dungeon is entered to attempt to get to know the contents of it. Otherwise going dungeoneering alone would be foolish for him.

And yes, I did give him items that would be useless in the particular battle but useful for things like traveling, exploration, and quick escapes.

Good point, I'm keeping it in mind and want to get panzerkracken's input as well.

Quote from: jeff37923;570135Good point, I'm keeping it in mind and want to get panzerkracken's input as well.

I'm fine with the situation.  I don't need any special considerations.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570220I'm fine with the situation.  I don't need any special considerations.

Done and done, then.

Gentlemen, if you will kindly PM or email me your character sheets we will begin within 12 hours of my reception of them.

EDIT:  I got Panzerkracken's.

I now have both character sheets and will review them over dinner, this thunderdome starts tonight!

It's been a long time since I've last seen this song and dance routine

 If you guys are letting MGuy scout with divinations I don't see him losing this. Genraly for arena matches the combatants appear out of thin air with 10ft between them and any buff spells they can make last all day. If MGuys wizard gets a suprise round It's not going the a fight it's going to be a slaughter

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;570357It's been a long time since I've last seen this song and dance routine

 If you guys are letting MGuy scout with divinations I don't see him losing this. Genraly for arena matches the combatants appear out of thin air with 10ft between them and any buff spells they can make last all day. If MGuys wizard gets a suprise round It's not going the a fight it's going to be a slaughter

Agreed.  

That said, the people that have been advocating that the Fighter will win the fight have insisted that the world need to be somewhat realistic.  You can't learn anything from an arena match because there is little for the Fighter to use to his advantage - terrain, tactics, etc.  

Those of us who have pointed out that the Fighter gains no benefit from 'a real game situation' have pointed out that he has no abilities that are useful outside of a fight (like divination/scouting ability) so he's WORSE OFF outside of an arena match.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;570366Agreed.  

That said, the people that have been advocating that the Fighter will win the fight have insisted that the world need to be somewhat realistic.  You can't learn anything from an arena match because there is little for the Fighter to use to his advantage - terrain, tactics, etc.  

Those of us who have pointed out that the Fighter gains no benefit from 'a real game situation' have pointed out that he has no abilities that are useful outside of a fight (like divination/scouting ability) so he's WORSE OFF outside of an arena match.

Nitpick: Dungeons & Dragons and realism do not do together very well together.  At all.  They probably mean "mundane" or "down to earth," like a Material Plane world instead of some crazy extraplanar terrain.

Now here's some fitting music for the prelude to battle!  THUNDERDOME! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5rF67v_q84&feature=related)

Ladies, Gentlemen, and trolls! The first field of battle for this Thunderdome pits the MGuy playing a 10th level Wizard against the Panzerkracken playing a 10th level Fighter using the D&D 3.5 rules!

The contested grounds for this event will be the Shoshawnee Savannah, a plains area with two copses of trees near the middle. The map is attached to this post, the two copses of trees are green, and the scale is 1 square = 180 feet. Flight ceiling for this scenario will be 1500 feet.

As the contest proceeds, if higher resolution is needed, then we will zoom in with another map.

MGuy shall enter the map from the NorthWest corner while Panzerkrcken shall enter from the SouthEast corner.

Scenario #1, begin!

:popcorn:

I figure it should be best of 3, in 3 different environments perhaps.

Like
"Inside a dungeon" limited space and blind corners
"Within dense woods" rough terrain and cover
"The ruins of a skycastle over a volcano" cool fantasy imagery and terrain hazards.

Quote from: Rum Cove;570387:popcorn:

I raise your :popcorn: with butter and a large box of red licorice.  "Proceeds to pull up her lawnchair taking a seat, crossing her legs and settles in for the show".

@Ogrebattle, very good idea, I'm sure Jeff has it well in hand though. :)

P.S. This whole thing reminds me of "Top Gun" if we could get a shirtless Val Kilmer in the mix I would be in heaven.

I'll be riding in from the Northwest on my Hippogriff (Luxury Item: Wondrous Figurine: Ebony Fly, 12 hour summon period) 100 ft off the ground. Initiative Roll: 9 http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3649975/. If I go first I will reach into my Haversack and cast Solid Fog on the gound where the fighter enters.

Quote from: MGuy;570399I'll be riding in from the Northwest on my Hippogriff (Luxury Item: Wondrous Figurine: Ebony Fly, 12 hour summon period) 100 ft off the ground. Initiative Roll: 9 http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3649975/. If I go first I will reach into my Haversack and cast Solid Fog on the gound where the fighter enters.

Wow thats quite impressive. At the map scale shown you could lob that spell perhaps a little further than 1 square from your starting position.

:cheerleader:

Quote from: OgreBattle;570393I figure it should be best of 3, in 3 different environments perhaps.

Like
"Inside a dungeon" limited space and blind corners
"Within dense woods" rough terrain and cover
"The ruins of a skycastle over a volcano" cool fantasy imagery and terrain hazards.

See post #6, where I agree with your assessment.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;570405Wow thats quite impressive. At the map scale shown you could lob that spell perhaps a little further than 1 square from your starting position.

With a range of 200ft for the Wizard casting Solid Fog, this is true.

However, the choice of venue here was deliberate to allow for detection possibility, time to set up for tactical advatage, and the use of long-range spells.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;570405Wow thats quite impressive. At the map scale shown you could lob that spell perhaps a little further than 1 square from your starting position.

:cheerleader:

If I were on the ground i could've lobbed it from off map and then some. But I figure I'd be flying around if I'm on flat and featureless planes because the view is better from the air (that and my mount is faster in the air than on the ground). But really I'm waiting to get shot down and go from there.

I don't have a dice roller (I tried to register for invisible castle, it's not working for some reason...) so I'll go with whatever Jeff comes up with for initiative for me.

I'll enter at about 500 feet off the ground riding my Pegasus (Leadership Feat Cohort Mount) to minimize possible ambushes by archers.  When I see the Hippogriff I'll sling my shield and draw my bow from the quiver of Ehlonna, and direct my mount go gain altitude sharply and swing to the East.  I want to try to put the sun behind me to him.

I'll also turn on the 'Danger Zone' music.

And for Marley:

  (http://www.twitsnaps.com/share/photo/99637_web.jpeg)

*snerk*

I like how the big 'pro-wizard' argument has long been that they have all these cool 'innate powers' that give them the advantage in the fight...like, you know, Flying... and MGuy's wizard comes in on a flying mount magic item more or less available to anyone.

:popcorn:

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570409I don't have a dice roller (I tried to register for invisible castle, it's not working for some reason...) so I'll go with whatever Jeff comes up with for initiative for me.

I reregistered on a different email account and was able to find it this time.  So here's my initiative roll

Initiative roll Round 1 (1d20+4=10) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650041/)

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570414I reregistered on a different email account and was able to find it this time.  So here's my initiative roll

Initiative roll Round 1 (1d20+4=10) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650041/)

Yeah, this is the one I will be using.

If I can ever get a confirmation email, that is.

Quote from: jeff37923;570426Yeah, this is the one I will be using.

If I can ever get a confirmation email, that is.

Check your junk mail, it came from 'mailman'

When you get in there, if you set the campaign as 'Thunderdome' it'll integrate and make all the rolls searchable; I just searched mine and found out that Kaelik used the same campaign name too, his rolls showed up

Quote from: Spike;570410*snerk*

I like how the big 'pro-wizard' argument has long been that they have all these cool 'innate powers' that give them the advantage in the fight...like, you know, Flying... and MGuy's wizard comes in on a flying mount magic item more or less available to anyone.

:popcorn:

Luxury item, as I said. I like to travel in style and its close enough to being a summon for my conjurer to want it.

You know the real funny thing is I contemplated using Leadership cheese but I had decided against thinking it would be in poor taste but ahh well. We all make mistakes.

Anyways, he beat me in initiative and is too far away and in the air so this changes my tactics quite a bit considering Solid Fog can't reach (If I'm doing the math on his maneruvering right). Instead I'll land near the trees in te center of the battle field (might as well make use of the landscape instead of just flying above it right?). Then I suppose I'll land and cast Silent Image to create a large swirling orb of black with which I can gain Total Concealment and bide my time for now. I'll make the orb have say a... 30ft radius? Yea I'll go with that for now.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570434Check your junk mail, it came from 'mailman'

Crap on a cracker, I think I deleted the damn thing.

Trying again....

Quote from: MGuy;570437Luxury item, as I said. I like to travel in style and its close enough to being a summon for my conjurer to want it.

You know the real funny thing is I contemplated using Leadership cheese but I had decided against thinking it would be in poor taste but ahh well. We all make mistakes.

Anyways, he beat me in initiative and is too far away and in the air so this changes my tactics quite a bit considering Solid Fog can't reach (If I'm doing the math on his maneruvering right). Instead I'll land near the trees in te center of the battle field (might as well make use of the landscape instead of just flying above it right?). Then I suppose I'll land and cast Silent Image to create a large swirling orb of black with which I can gain Total Concealment and bide my time for now. I'll make the orb have say a... 30ft radius? Yea I'll go with that for now.

You still both have to detect each other first.

Once I get the range rolled for the terrain, I can let you know a minimum distance. Which will be once I get registered on the dice-roller site. It still has not sent me an email, I may have to wait until someone checks it.

Quote from: MGuy;570437Luxury item, as I said. I like to travel in style and its close enough to being a summon for my conjurer to want it.

You know the real funny thing is I contemplated using Leadership cheese but I had decided against thinking it would be in poor taste but ahh well. We all make mistakes.

Leadership cheese would be if you landed and my squad of Ranger followers popped up from spider holes and murdered you with bows :)  It would've been just as easy to buy a flying mount, but didn't fit as well as having a companion.  It made for some nice history for him.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570443Leadership cheese would be if you landed and my squad of Ranger followers popped up from spider holes and murdered you with bows :)  It would've been just as easy to buy a flying mount, but didn't fit as well as having a companion.  It made for some nice history for him.

Or I could have had another caster as my cohort and really expanded my combat options without spending hardly any gold on their equipment, Even 3 or 4 levels behind would still provide me with a wealth of extra options for both attack and defense, I avoided doing so because I wanted this to be a measure of what the classes can do. Even the mount I have is just a luxury piece that I got cause I got tired of buying scrolls and didn't wan't to tempt myself into UMD shennanigans. I could've summoned a hippogriff or even a griffon and have ridden it to the battle field. However this wildly expensive one that can't fight ever seemed cooler.

TL: DR: I didn't use Leadership because this is supposed to highlight the difference of power between the classes and I felt getting a leg up through the wildly unbalanced leadership feat would've muddied things.

Quote from: MGuy;570445Or I could have had another caster as my cohort and really expanded my combat options without spending hardly any gold on their equipment, Even 3 or 4 levels behind would still provide me with a wealth of extra options for both attack and defense, I avoided doing so because I wanted this to be a measure of what the classes can do. Even the mount I have is just a luxury piece that I got cause I got tired of buying scrolls and didn't wan't to tempt myself into UMD shennanigans. I could've summoned a hippogriff or even a griffon and have ridden it to the battle field. However this wildly expensive one that can't fight ever seemed cooler.

TL: DR: I didn't use Leadership because this is supposed to highlight the difference of power between the classes and I felt getting a leg up through the wildly unbalanced leadership feat would've muddied things.

Leadership is a feat.  Part of what makes up a Fighter's class is a ton of feats and what you can use them for.  As I pointed out to Jeff when I sent him the character for review, and as I said before, I could've just BOUGHT a flying mount and cleared out another feat slot for something else, since even a purchased pegasus is totally loyal for life to a good or neutral rider, and by the book values it's only 3000gp to buy the egg and have it raised and trained.  But I have a ton of feats, as part of my class, and a pure-strain fighter does well with some options.  This guy is a mounted-knight type.  He has the previously discussed longbow, but as we said in the setup, that's not his focus, mounted combat is, and in a vaguely medieval setting, that means that he's a leader.

But if you think I've taken an unfair advantage, you're welcome to withdraw.


.

:popcorn:

Go on boys I'm mildly interested but would either of you like some cheese with that whine? Just checking. :)

Quote from: Marleycat;570455:popcorn:

Go on boys I'm mildly interested but would either of you like some cheese with that whine? Just checking. :)

Apparently I have enough already :D

This is just the back and forthing while we wait for the GM to find his dice...

Quote from: MGuy;570437Anyways, he beat me in initiative and is too far away and in the air so this changes my tactics quite a bit considering Solid Fog can't reach (If I'm doing the math on his maneruvering right). Instead I'll land near the trees in te center of the battle field (might as well make use of the landscape instead of just flying above it right?). Then I suppose I'll land and cast Silent Image to create a large swirling orb of black with which I can gain Total Concealment and bide my time for now. I'll make the orb have say a... 30ft radius? Yea I'll go with that for now.

This is nitpicking (mostly), but you can't do that. Silent image have a maximum area of 4 10 feet squares +  1 10 feet square for level, i.e 14 10 feet squares foot. a (half) sphere of 30 radius would be bigger than that.
a 15' radius half sphere would be possible or to be more precise, you have 14 10 feet squares to play with.

I don't get it. Spell selection, Feats, magic items, etc.. are essentially random when two people stumble across each other and begin a battle.

Isn't one person going to have a random advantage?



Something a simple as 'how good is the fighters will save, or is he immune to enchantment magic' will make or break the battle.

A fighter that gets a critical early might gank the wizard, etc...

Quote from: Bill;570466I don't get it. Spell selection, Feats, magic items, etc.. are essentially random when two people stumble across each other and begin a battle.

Isn't one person going to have a random advantage?



Something a simple as 'how good is the fighters will save, or is he immune to enchantment magic' will make or break the battle.

A fighter that gets a critical early might gank the wizard, etc...

Yeah a lot of shit can happen. I believe the claim in question is that a wizard will dominate every single time and a fighter stands no chance. IMHO this claim usually comes from people that don't actually follow the limitations and rules of magic which gives them an inflated opinion of the wizard's capabilities.

Quote from: Bill;570466I don't get it. Spell selection, Feats, magic items, etc.. are essentially random when two people stumble across each other and begin a battle.

Isn't one person going to have a random advantage?



Something a simple as 'how good is the fighters will save, or is he immune to enchantment magic' will make or break the battle.

A fighter that gets a critical early might gank the wizard, etc...

 the thing is with his vast selection of spells the wizard needs to worry about one thing, HP damage from weapons but their is a vast number of things the fighter hast to counter with only what he can buy with his wealth by level.

even if he can make fort save vs baleful polymorph and will save vs dominate person still needs to reach a flying wizard in the air, see an invisible wizard, escape solid fog, not be mauled by summoned monsters, and not die in two rounds to maximized scorching ray.

if anyone wants I can write up a 10th level wizard that can do all of that in core

Apparently I've recently gained a few more levels in the Shit-Stirrer prestige class without noticing, if one toss-off observation (with the popcorn smiley ta boot!) manages to bring up a half dozen posts of justifying flying mounts and random accusations of cheese. All entirely accidentally.

Entertain me, motherfuckers.

Quote from: Spike;570473Apparently I've recently gained a few more levels in the Shit-Stirrer prestige class without noticing, if one toss-off observation (with the popcorn smiley ta boot!) manages to bring up a half dozen posts of justifying flying mounts and random accusations of cheese. All entirely accidentally.

Entertain me, motherfuckers.

Isn't the point of the entire hobby, and therefore by extension the point of posting here, shared entertainment?

I'm happy to oblige, I'm enjoying myself :cool:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;570468Yeah a lot of shit can happen. I believe the claim in question is that a wizard will dominate every single time and a fighter stands no chance. IMHO this claim usually comes from people that don't actually follow the limitations and rules of magic which gives them an inflated opinion of the wizard's capabilities.

This isnt exactly the case (bolding mine).

Quote from: PanzerkrakenI'll make that claim. My claim is that a 10th level fighter with a +2 Strength +3 Composite longbow and +2 arrows, without any bow feats or specs (meaning 2nd or 3rd edition, yes) would probably smoke an equivalently statted 10th level wizard in a normal combat environment (meaning that there's more going on than just a duel between the two). And god only help the poor wizard if the Fighter gets in close to him.

That was the original claim.  In retrospect, when we finalized the terms, I didn't stand exactly by that statement, since I said 'without any bow feats or specs', but the terms it was worded as 'my primary focus will not be', and I did take one feat that has to do with archery.

and this was the reply:

QuoteWell firstly while you probably want to exclude 3rd edition from your claim that a fighter stands on even ground with a wizard in a normal combat situation because a straight fighter can't handle higher level encounters in his CR racket in high level play without perhaps being optimized to do so (I say perhaps because if we're talking Core Fighter he's completely screwed) while a wizard operates fine at all CRs. The fact that you bash charOp when the Fighter in 3rd demonstrably needs Optimization just to survive immediately puts your entire post under suspicion. So you may be able to make the claim for 2nd though there've been some arguments against that by people who know 2nd better than I (or at all) that even in 2nd it may not be true.

I didn't say that I was going to be suffering from all of the classic handicaps of a Fighter, though, such as being an immobile lump with a 20' movement and a melee attack.

Magic may seem more advanced, and capable of so many things outside just dealing damage, but then so were the Chinese in relation to the Mongols.  Magic will carry you a long way, but there's honestly no way you can be effectively prepared for EVERYTHING.  So yes, you all can sit and armchair at MGuy and I about our decisions.  You can even make statements about the vague capability and how you could build it better.  But he's in here and fighting it, so I think that's better than not. :hatsoff:

I think that either way though, it's going to be a good showing.  And I promise that I'll give him a nice funeral.

:boohoo:

Quote from: Spike;570473Apparently I've recently gained a few more levels in the Shit-Stirrer prestige class without noticing, if one toss-off observation (with the popcorn smiley ta boot!) manages to bring up a half dozen posts of justifying flying mounts and random accusations of cheese. All entirely accidentally.

Entertain me, motherfuckers.

So why do you have time to post in this Thunderdome thread but not time to post in the Thunderdome that you lost to me by forfeit?

Seems like if you have enough time here you could have posted in that thread since we've been waiting on you for over two weeks.

This has been a misunderstanding. I'm not griping that you used Leadership. I'm griping that I did not and that I had actually thought about doing so. I misunderstood what this challenge was supposed to represent and didn't go full on in bending the system over backwards in order to make my point. I still have the utmost confidence that I will indeed win even if you've given yourself the option of flying.

You being out of range for my my favored tactics just means either I play the waiting game or I just have my wizard leave. Were this an actual campaign I doubt my mission would be "Come to a random open field and kill meaningless fighter" in the first place. If the mission were anything that happens in an actual campaign like "go here find artifact", "defend person from stuff". "Sneak into place", "Take over kingdom" or something that actually happens in a campaign this "fight" would be meaningless in the grand scheme of what my wizard has to do.

What's more is because this isn't a campaign and I am not allowed to expand my spellbook (which is trivially easy to do in 3rd edition if you can find the spells et al') I would have done so and thus had more options which is why if I had used leadership I'd have almost double the options I have right now. Getting a flying mount by using the leadership rules doesn't bother me at all. It's just indicative of how little the fighter can do on their own (and is one of the points I made in the thread). Getting equipment that's more interesting than everything on the fighter's plate is just not something that's off putting. It's what I expect and, again, just highlights the weaknesses of the class. Without fear of ruining the mystique of my character he only has about 2 items that aren't stat boosters and are things that he can't already do with magic. Big hint that one of them is something to heal himself with.

As for the silent image orb you are correct, I made it too big. I misremembered the number of 10ft cubes I get. However, since we're waiting on the judge to determine the actual conditions of this combat I may be retracting my moves wholesale anyway. If nothing changes I'll shrink down to a 10ft radius hemisphere which I believe is doable.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570479Magic may seem more advanced, and capable of so many things outside just dealing damage, but then so were the Chinese in relation to the Mongols.

...and that story ends with the Fighter turning into a higher level Wizard with wizard henchmen. Let me start from the beginning:

So, Genghis Khan invaded the Jin dynasty in 1211. At that time there were two China's (well three, but everyone ignores the Xia), the Jin and the Song, and they were locked in war. The Mongols invaded, made some headway, but they couldn't conquer the Jin quite like that, and the Jin decided "the Mongols are pretty nasty, but we really gotta focus on fighting the Song", which they did, the Mongols were 2ndary priority. The Jin, in the middle of fighting Mongols in the west and the Song in the south, even had a little civil war to decided the next emperor. In all of that chaos, they still remained the Jin and the Mongols were just sitting at the border.

Genghis Khan dies in 1227 while fighting the Xia dynasty. The Mongols absorb Xia soldiers and gain more Chinese technology. Things start changing.

In 1232, the Mongols ally with the Song dynasty, and their combined force crushes the Jin within a year. They then start fighting each other over the Jin territory.

What happens is, the Mongols absorb all of the Jin troops, gaining the Jin heavy cavalry, Chinese logistical skills, and more technology (like gunpowder and stuff), and begin pushing south. They hit the Song navy... Mongols don't know shit about naval warfare, so they got Chinese admirals to do that for them.

What you have now is the Mongol+Xia+Jin+Song defectors, vs the Song remnants. A large amount of the 'Mongol' soldiers were Chinese, fighting with Chinese weapons and technology. A large amount of their generals were Chinese, pretty much all their admirals were Chinese. The Mongol general who decisively defeated the Song was a Chinese, his name is Zhang Hongfan, he was born in a non-Song dynasty

In 1279, 68 years after their first battle with the Jin, the 'Mongol' (and Jin, and Xia, and Song defector) forces defeat the Song dynasty.

The Mongols won by learning from their foes, turning the defeated into allies, and becoming better Chinese generals than China had. In order to battle a more advanced Empire, they had to become MORE ADVANCED THAN THEM, and they DID.

So if the Mongols are Fighters, they fought the Wizards by getting a ton of Wizard cohorts, then raised their next two generations of kids as Wizards, then fought the Wizards who were also fighting Wizards and got the defeated Wizards to join them. They could only defeat the Wizards by becoming better Wizards themselves.

If anything, the Mongols are Wizards and what they did to Russia, the Middle East, and Europe (who only have Fighters) in the space of Genghis Khan's lifetime is like what happens when a Wizard blows his wad in one encounter (and then he teleported away...)


I like history, and I think the Mongol/China conflict is one of those things that is grossly misinterpreted by too many folks. So now ends this commercial break to return to your regularly scheduled death match.

*and then after 60 years of fighting, the Mongols ruled for 90 years until the Ming rose up and cut their dicks off (they really, literally did that)

Quote from: MGuy;570495

I had a huge response, but I was proofreading it and realized something.  I was getting caught up in the whole participation thing and had forgotten that you have a mind that can't comprehend why we play role playing games.  You're totally focused on the numbers, not the joy or challenge of it, or the purpose behind the characters who aren't casters.

And no, I won't help you understand.  You do or you don't, that's all there is to it.

Quote from: OgreBattle;570500brickotext

sorry for not including a specific date in that, I was pretty much specifically talking about early fights between the Mongols as a cavalry force and Chinese city-states, using the modern definition of China to clearly identify to those people without direct familiarity with the conflicts in question.

for even more clarity, I meant the hit and run tactics they would use prior to their establishment of a dismounted levy force.

So, as a descriptive example: Fighter Rides Horse and Shoots Arrows at Wizard.

Sorry for leaving too much open for interpretation.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570457This is just the back and forthing while we wait for the GM to find his dice...

And the GM is getting mighty pissed that so far there has been no response on all four of his Yahoo email accounts with Invisible Castle.

I'm going to try and set up a gmail account and try that. Hopefully, they just don't like Yahoo.

Quote from: jeff37923;570511And the GM is getting mighty pissed that so far there has been no response on all four of his Yahoo email accounts with Invisible Castle.

I'm going to try and set up a gmail account and try that. Hopefully, they just don't like Yahoo.

gmail is what I used, it wound up in the spam folder there.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570506I had a huge response, but I was proofreading it and realized something.  I was getting caught up in the whole participation thing and had forgotten that you have a mind that can't comprehend why we play role playing games.  You're totally focused on the numbers, not the joy or challenge of it, or the purpose behind the characters who aren't casters.

And no, I won't help you understand.  You do or you don't, that's all there is to it.

I'm sure you wrote some long diatribe that most likely fails to address any of the points I actually made about fighter v caster power disparity and instead you invented your own conversation about feelings and enjoyment so you can actually argue something that cannot be argued with. However, I don't know why you would think that I would be totally focused on numbers based on what I wrote here where I was pointing out how I am lamenting deliberately gimping myself on the number of options I could have had while using a very unoptimized wizard to fight in this challenge while allowing you to increase your options in a shity way by using a feat I specifically avoided using to keep in the spirit of the challenge

As for "Fighter rides horse --> Shoots wizard" I must note that again, I can just straight up "leave" this competition as there is nothig keeping my wizard here. If I want this land I'll scout it out, teleport in and take it later, after the fighter has settled in with his family. I could do it under my own power (not needing to go looking for a cohort or paid magical intern to do it for me) and would be more able to do it on my own if this were an organically grown wizard who would of course have more options for pulling it off (because again, researching new spells is easy).

I can "right now" completely keep you from harming me at all if I want and sit around in this field indefinitely (occassionally teleporting out to get food and rest).

Or, if I had any other goal than having to chase a fighter around I could be going to do IT and any number of more important things that being able to bend reality to my will allows me to do instead of faffing about in an unmarked, strategically unimportant plot of land that the fighter couldn't keep me from taking at a later date.

However, I will be satisfied in simply proving that I can beat this fighter in combat and I'm determined to do it without an instnt kill spell.

Quote from: MGuy;570515Blah Blah Blah

However, I will be satisfied in simply proving that I can beat this fighter in combat and I'm determined to do it without an instnt kill spell.

:idunno: Bring it.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570518:idunno: Bring it.

Just waiting on the ref.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650598/

29x40 = 1160 ft detection range for spot check (slightly over 6 squares). You guys might want to close a bit.

(Goddamn, but I fucking hate using gmail.)

Very well, retracting the earlier post,

Spoiler

Nothing to see here!.

Should we be declaring actions via PM or here or with spoilers and the honor system?

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570528Very well, retracting the earlier post,

Spoiler

I'll proceed into square G9 from the lower diagonal at 500' altitude and an 'overland' rate of speed for my mount, keeping an eye out for threats.  I'm mostly watching for ground soldiers.  

I have my lance out and my shield on my arm normally, it's the Knightly way to travel.

Should we be declaring actions via PM or here or with spoilers and the honor system?

Let's go for PMs, that way it will be a better surprise.

Quote from: jeff37923;570531Let's go for PMs, that way it will be a better surprise.

I'll assume you have my action for this first bit then :)

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570532I'll assume you have my action for this first bit then :)

That is correct.

MGuy, you're up!

Quote from: jeff37923;570533That is correct.

MGuy, you're up!

He went first. I don't know the situation. I need to know what I saw before I can react to it (assuming we both have to be in the detection range to act at each other I'll send my Pm assuming I have not found him and he hasn't found me.

Quote from: MGuy;570536He went first. I don't know the situation. I need to know what I saw before I can react to it (assuming we both have to be in the detection range to act at each other I'll send my Pm assuming I have not found him and he hasn't found me.

Yup, both of you are not in detection range as of yet. You are both closing.

Panzerkraken is a deployed serviceman?

This should be interesting...

OK, you are both within detection range of each other and I need those Spot checks.  MGuy, I need a 20 from you to spot your opponent and Panzercracken, I need a 25 from you since you are primarily looking for ground targets and not aerial ones.

Quote from: jeff37923;570541OK, you are both within detection range of each other and I need those Spot checks.  MGuy, I need a 20 from you to spot your opponent and Panzercracken, I need a 25 from you since you are primarily looking for ground targets and not aerial ones.

I wonder if those trees are happy down there.. all in their nice little clumps.  What makes trees happy anyway? ......

1d20-1=3 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650669/)

Quote from: jeff37923;570541OK, you are both within detection range of each other and I need those Spot checks.  MGuy, I need a 20 from you to spot your opponent and Panzercracken, I need a 25 from you since you are primarily looking for ground targets and not aerial ones.

15 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650677/) I'd forgotten that I put ANYTHING in spot. Not that this matters but add 3 onto that cause I forgot about the bonus my Hawk (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650679/), who did make the check, gave me.

OK, you are both still unawares of each other so far....

The distance between the two of you is now 800 ft, spot checks are needed. MGuy needs an 18 while PanzerKracken needs a 23.

Quote from: jeff37923;570546OK, you are both still unawares of each other so far....

The distance between the two of you is now 800 ft, spot checks are needed. MGuy needs an 18 while PanzerKracken needs a 23.

Got it (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650720/)

Quote from: jeff37923;570546OK, you are both still unawares of each other so far....

The distance between the two of you is now 800 ft, spot checks are needed. MGuy needs an 18 while PanzerKracken needs a 23.

1d20-1=7 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650708/)

Still cruising along.

My mount has a +8 Spot and a 10 Int, up to you if he notices the huge black fly and does anything.

Invisible Castle is giving me ERROR results for a simple d20 roll.

There we go. 3+8 = 11, your pegasus notices nothing.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650758/

Quote from: jeff37923;570553Invisible Castle is giving me ERROR results for a simple d20 roll.

There we go. 3+8 = 11, your pegasus notices nothing.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650758/

it's the 1 in front of the d20, I have the same problem with half my rolls

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570555it's the 1 in front of the d20, I have the same problem with half my rolls

Yup, that was killin' me.

This music's playing in my head right now as I picture the encounter.  It should be playing in yours as well. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twRv1qR6rVw)

OK everybody, I have to go to work now so this Thunderdome will be suspended until I return in about 14 hours.

Quote from: Libertad;570564This music's playing in my head right now as I picture the encounter.  It should be playing in yours as well. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twRv1qR6rVw)

I had this YouTube vid and music in mind, actually. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AphxyjrH4SE)

Quote from: Kaelik;570481So why do you have time to post in this Thunderdome thread but not time to post in the Thunderdome that you lost to me by forfeit?

Seems like if you have enough time here you could have posted in that thread since we've been waiting on you for over two weeks.

Because I didn't post or read here for over a week? because I'd already made the utterly trivial changes requested of me? Because I'm not entirely sure I trust DeadDM to be impartial as a DM?

Take your pick.


Eh: Apparently I'd made the skill changes and then... not saved the post.  Whatever, if I can keep a bone devil from one-shotting the mage (and then be able to actually hurt him with my worthless non-mage characters) because of 1 extra skill point then the math is truly fucked.

I'm back and waiting for MGuy's PM response about his action.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;570469the thing is with his vast selection of spells the wizard needs to worry about one thing, HP damage from weapons but their is a vast number of things the fighter hast to counter with only what he can buy with his wealth by level.

even if he can make fort save vs baleful polymorph and will save vs dominate person still needs to reach a flying wizard in the air, see an invisible wizard, escape solid fog, not be mauled by summoned monsters, and not die in two rounds to maximized scorching ray.

if anyone wants I can write up a 10th level wizard that can do all of that in core

A wizard in general, has the advantage. Mainly due to horribly overpowered spells like improved invisibility, stoneskin, etc.. A fighter with poor gear is toast.

But,

A wizard is supposed to win in a situation where he is able to cast a few spells. A prepared wizard is a beast.

A fighter is supposed to win against a wizard in a fair fight. Fair being the fighter might win initiative and drill the wizard with a bow, or dual strike him into the next life.  Maybe the fighter should buy some Con reducing poison for his weapons?

I don't see it as a problem of 'who is more powerful'

The wizard is uber when he has time to prepare; either a few rounds of casting, or a day to pick the right spells.

A fighter is uber when backstabbed, or in a tiny tunnell, etc...

At 10th level the Wizard Starts in the air because his fly spell lasts all day
In the best case scenario you have intitiative 3-4 points better than the Wizard (in core out of core yer right boned due to nerveskitter). Solid Fog Is a real thing one you need a counter for or the wizard gets 3-4 rounds to cast whatever. Improve Invis is also a thing hope you packed potoins of see invis.
But I don't have to tell you guys I can show. I promised you a wizard Build so I think I'll deliver

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;570757At 10th level the Wizard Starts in the air because his fly spell lasts all day
In the best case scenario you have intitiative 3-4 points better than the Wizard (in core out of core yer right boned due to nerveskitter). Solid Fog Is a real thing one you need a counter for or the wizard gets 3-4 rounds to cast whatever. Improve Invis is also a thing hope you packed potoins of see invis.
But I don't have to tell you guys I can show. I promised you a wizard Build so I think I'll deliver

This battle is between mcguy and panzer.

I think if you want to participate in a thunderdome scenario or offer up a build,  you should start a new thread or wait until jeff has had a chance to resolve this encounter.

As Promised

Awesome McWizardington, Pwner of Fighters
Human Evoker 6/ Red Wizard 4
Str 8/Dex 18/ Con 18/Int 22/Wis 10/Cha 8 (8/16/16/18/10/8 pre-items 32pb)
AC 19 HP 66 Fort +8 Ref +8 Will +9
Feats Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Tatto Focus (Evocation), Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, I dunno Weapon Focus Ray or somthing (core only ;_; )
Skills Concentration +17 Spelcraft +21 Spot +6 Listen +6 Knowlage(Arcana) +21 Craft (underwater basketweaving) +9

Spells 4/6+1/6+1/4+1/4+1/3+1 (banned schools Abjuration and Necromancy)
5th- Maximized Scorching Ray, Overland Flight, Dominate Person (DC 21), Summon Monster V The Wizard Strikes Back
4th- Empowerd Schorching Ray, Solid Fog, Evards Black Tentacles 2x Summon Monster IV A New Hope
3rd- Fireball 2x Haste 2x Summon Monster III Revenge of the Summoners.
2nd- 3x Scorching Ray 2x Invisibility, Minor Image
1st- 3x Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat. 2x Silent Image

Item are Gloves of Dex +2 Amulet of Health +2 Headband of Int +4 Ring of Protection +1 Cloak of Resistance +1 Rod of Extend (used to make mage armor and Overland Flight last all day)
Edit tuns out theirs WBL left over so he has Premanent Arcane Sight as well

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;570760This battle is between mcguy and panzer.

I think if you want to participate in a thunderdome scenario or offer up a build,  you should start a new thread or wait until jeff has had a chance to resolve this encounter.

Dear God, I don't know whether to look forward with glee or horror that this might become 'a thing' in this forum.

Oh well, might as well fire up the old skool riffs:
Throw down boss music. Y's - Holders of Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h56yYJ0xC0&feature=related)

Quote from: Opaopajr;570769Dear God, I don't know whether to look forward with glee or horror that this might become 'a thing' in this forum.

Oh well, might as well fire up the old skool riffs:
Throw down boss music. Y's - Holders of Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h56yYJ0xC0&feature=related)

The idea wasn't because thunderdome battles are fun or good. It was more about having a release valve for some of the more pendandic thread derailments (so people can actually put mechanical questions into practice rather than debate hypotheticals endlessly). Personally, I think if you are actuallly playing the game, you don't need thunderdome. You know how well these things work or do not work for you from experience.

Edit: also if we did get to a point where you had three or more at a time, they should probably be shuffled to another part of thhe forum.

Well the build is up it took me 5 min to make it. If anyone thinks they can beat it with core warrior classes go ahead and post a build you even have my list of preped spells.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;570774Well the build is up it took me 5 min to make it. If anyone thinks they can beat it with core warrior classes go ahead and post a build you even have my list of preped spells.

LM: please wait until mcguy and panzer have finished running their encounter. You have to have your character okay'd by the GM and abide by any character creation ground rules established by him and the participants.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;570757At 10th level the Wizard Starts in the air because his fly spell lasts all day
In the best case scenario you have intitiative 3-4 points better than the Wizard (in core out of core yer right boned due to nerveskitter). Solid Fog Is a real thing one you need a counter for or the wizard gets 3-4 rounds to cast whatever. Improve Invis is also a thing hope you packed potoins of see invis.
But I don't have to tell you guys I can show. I promised you a wizard Build so I think I'll deliver

Start another thread, please.

This is the Thunderdome for MGuy and Panzerkracken.

I'm about to declare this scenario a forfeit by MGuy. He has been requested to do a DC 10 Concentration check and a DC 10 Ride check to cast a spell with a somatic componant while riding through the air on a hippogriff. So far, MGuy has made the DC 10 Concentration check and is waffling on making the DC 10 Ride check.

EDIT: I have to go to work at 3pm.

Don't disrupt the thread, Lord Mistborn.

Quote from: jeff37923;570885So far, MGuy has made the DC 10 Concentration check and is waffling on making the DC 10 Ride check.

Did he fall off his mount?!

I MGuy's Wizard Mr. Magoo or something?

Grossly overestimating spell ranges/areas of effect. Falling off his Hippogriff.

I'm guessing when he hits dirt the Keystone Kops are going to start chasing him.

Quote from: jeff37923;570885I'm about to declare this scenario a forfeit by MGuy. He has been requested to do a DC 10 Concentration check and a DC 10 Ride check to cast a spell with a somatic componant while riding through the air on a hippogriff. So far, MGuy has made the DC 10 Concentration check and is waffling on making the DC 10 Ride check.

EDIT: I have to go to work at 3pm.

May I ask why you're asking for a ride check?  The mount doesn't require a ride check to continue flying.  

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm

Quote from: SRDCheck
Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem.

The following tasks do require checks.

...List of Tasks...

Quote from: deadDMwalking;570970May I ask why you're asking for a ride check?  The mount doesn't require a ride check to continue flying.  

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm

Quote from: SRDCheck
Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem.

The following tasks do require checks.

...List of Tasks...

I'd bet it's a guide with knees or control mount in combat roll, considering he said it's only DC 10

Riding a donkey around backwards, firing spells at butterflies and songbirds, "Taste my dweomercraft lowly Fighter!"

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570977I'd bet it's a guide with knees or control mount in combat roll, considering he said it's only DC 10

Control with knees is DC 5, and unless we've skipped a whole bunch of people flying toward each other, it seems we're too early for a Fight With Mount roll.  Considering Mguy's mount doesn't actually have any attacks, I can't think of a single reason to call for that roll.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;570989Control with knees is DC 5, and unless we've skipped a whole bunch of people flying toward each other, it seems we're too early for a Fight With Mount roll.  Considering Mguy's mount doesn't actually have any attacks, I can't think of a single reason to call for that roll.

it's DC10 bareback, if he didn't buy an exotic saddle for his fly.

"Waste my WBL on a saddle? Are you insane!!!"

Quote from: Panzerkraken;570992it's DC10 bareback, if he didn't buy an exotic saddle for his fly.

That seems pretty unreasonable.  The figurine of wondrous power seems like it should come with reasonable gear (considering it is not, in fact, a hippogriff).  But it doesn't say in the SRD.  I'll look it up in the DMG tonight to see if it has additional description.

Edit - Nothing in the DMG.  Haven't had a chance to look for errata.  But since it is in statue form before you activate it, and it's made to be ridden, it seems like it would be carved with the appropriate saddle...

Quote from: deadDMwalking;570999That seems pretty unreasonable.  The figurine of wondrous power seems like it should come with reasonable gear (considering it is not, in fact, a hippogriff).  But it doesn't say in the SRD.  I'll look it up in the DMG tonight to see if it has additional description.

I looked, it doesn't, even the ones specifically designed to be a mount (Goat of Traveling, Obsidian Steed) don't make any mention of riding trappings.  It's probably left up to the GM to decide if they come with anything or not, and depending on the interpretation of how the creature works (thinking of the way Salvatore treated Driz's cat) they either exist on a spiritual plane or are just animated critters from the statuette itself.  So they might or might not have trappings according to GM whim.

I'm just guessing based on the call for a DC10 ride though.

I suggest waiting to get Jeff's response to the question. Looking at the chart the two possibilities seem to be the saddle issue or he simply made a mistake about the fight with warhorse rule. No point in you guys looking up stuff if jeff decides no roll is required. If he wants to go forward with it best to know his reason first then address that.

I am almost tempted to suggest each side should be able to designate a rules lawyer for this kind of stuff :)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;571001I suggest waiting to get Jeff's response to the question. Looking at the chart the two possibilities seem to be the saddle issue or he simply made a mistake about the fight with warhorse rule. No point in you guys looking up stuff if jeff decides no roll is required. If he wants to go forward with it best to know his reason first then address that.

I am almost tempted to suggest each side should be able to designate a rules lawyer for this kind of stuff :)

Lol!

We were just passing time :D

The end all of the matter is: GM says roll your dice.  Do it or take a duck to the face at 200 knots.

My two cents, looking at the SRD: ordinary saddles are 'set dressing' so far as the rules are concerned. A military saddle provides a bonus to ride checks.

To avoid made up rules, a smart flyer uses an exotic (for flying mount) military saddle, keeping him from falling off his mount 75% of the time (and I note that the mounted combat rules seem to indicate unconciousness as the only reason people fall off horses. Silly, perhaps, but RAW).

Thus I am forced to agree that I don't grasp the need for the ride check at this time, but I would also say MGuy should probably roll it and then ask Jeff to explain why its needed.

(Extra bonus: Ride skill points out that bareback is a -5 to DC checks, and there is an easy (5) 'stay in saddle' check for taking damage, and a DC 10 check to fight with a warhorse.... So this is probably a 'guide with knees, bareback' check at DC 10.)

Wow I seem to have missed quite a bit at work. A few things:

1) I was at work for most of this day so that's that.

2) I gave him my ride check I made it 1d20+4. Result 6 + 4 = 10. Edit: Bam by the way (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650800/)

3) Yes I bought an exotic military saddle for it.

4) Yes I spent some of my wealth by level on a saddle. I didn't even spend all my wealth. I still had like 14,000 or so left.

5) I did ask and disagree that it was necessary. He said it was because casting though nowhere in the rules does it say I have to especially when I haven't even been attacked and the situation so far isn't tense. However I went along with the roll anyway.

Quote from: MGuy;571116Wow I seem to have missed quite a bit at work. A few things:

1) I was at work for most of this day so that's that.

2) I gave him my ride check I made it 1d20+4. Result 6 + 4 = 10. Edit: Bam by the way (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3650800/)

3) Yes I bought an exotic military saddle for it.

4) Yes I spent some of my wealth by level on a saddle. I didn't even spend all my wealth. I still had like 14,000 or so left.

5) I did ask and disagree that it was necessary. He said it was because casting though nowhere in the rules does it say I have to especially when I haven't even been attacked and the situation so far isn't tense. However I went along with the roll anyway.

I didn't click on the link MGuy provided and apologize. That one was my bad. I was an idiot.

MGuy does have an exotic saddle, so that is not the issue.

I requested the Ride check because his wizard is casting a spell with a somatic componant while on a hippogriff that is flying. The achieved Concentration check means his spell goes off successfully. The achieved Ride check means that his wizard remains in control of his flying mount while casting the spell.

I'm likening this to riding a horse at full gallop while trying to perform lasso tricks, except worse because of the whole flying and spellcasting part. That is why I gave it a DC of 10 for both. I understand how this may be disagreed with, but I don't think that controlling a hippogriff in flight while gesticulating in order to cast a spell would be so easy as to forego a skill check.

DC 10 is nothing don't let Mguy fake you. I would have done DC
15 or 20. I'm a bitch so deal with it and move along already.

MGuy, Panzerkracken, the distance between you both is now 440 ft. Panzercracken, you need a DC 20 Spot check to see anything in the air with you.

Quote from: jeff37923;571148MGuy, Panzerkracken, the distance between you both is now 440 ft. Panzercracken, you need a DC 20 Spot check to see anything in the air with you.

Air?  What air?

1d20-1=1 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3653132/)

I swear, there's only been like 2 rolls over 6 so far for either of us :)

God help me, I have an unholy love for players who roll ones on spot checks.

Its such a fucking theme at my table that I've had players roll spot checks that I didn't even ask for (seriously: My players love to roll dice before I ask for rolls. Generally this is bad for them, as I only pay attention to the failed rolls... Why do they do it to themselves??? WHY???).

So: Five players see thirty orcs in a crowded hallway. Four players start fighting orcs while one player scratches his balls and wonders why everyone is shouting because he rolled a one. that I didn't even ask for.  Because it is fucking funny.

thank you, Panzerkracken. Thank you for bringing the 'hey, lookit the pretty, pretty butterflies' for me.

Quote from: Spike;571160thank you, Panzerkracken. Thank you for bringing the 'hey, lookit the pretty, pretty butterflies' for me.

You're welcome, also, as you can clearly see from my spot checks, there's no 'c' in panzerkraken :)

And I rolled a 2, dammit!  Modifiers don't make you fumble!

Sorry, any screen name longer than my own gives me troubles. You're lucky I didn't call you panzywasteits? ;)

I do admit I may have missed something.  Why a dc 20 spot check to see a big flying thing? Also: did the wiz have to make a spot check?

Bah, I need to shut up and eat mah poppencorn.




EDIT::: I apparently rolled a 1 to 'read pun'. Damnit!

Quote from: Spike;571162EDIT::: I apparently rolled a 1 to 'read pun'. Damnit!

:rotfl:

Quote from: jeff37923;571142I'm likening this to riding a horse at full gallop while trying to perform lasso tricks, except worse because of the whole flying and spellcasting part. That is why I gave it a DC of 10 for both. I understand how this may be disagreed with, but I don't think that controlling a hippogriff in flight while gesticulating in order to cast a spell would be so easy as to forego a skill check.

Just observing, but I'd think the Concentration check is appropriate, but the 'guide with knees' DC 5 would be the only required check.  He's not making the mount do anything it doesn't want to do, anyway.

This thread reaffirms just why I think 3rd edition is a bloody holocaust, and that people who enjoy it are soulless, hermetic aspie shitwiches who need to find another hobby.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571208This thread reaffirms just why I think 3rd edition is a bloody holocaust, and that people who enjoy it are soulless, hermetic aspie shitwiches who need to find another hobby.

Opinions are like assholes.  Everyone's got one, and don't mind hearing it now and then, but everyone else thinks they stink.

/shrug  I've enjoyed a lot of 3rd edition games, but I don't find myself soulless, hermetic or aspie, although shitwich might be accurate, I guess.

But I don't need another hobby.  Maybe if you don't like the content you just shouldn't read the thread.  It's a lot more mature than popping in to tell us all you hate us.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571208This thread reaffirms just why I think 3rd edition is a bloody holocaust, and that people who enjoy it are soulless, hermetic aspie shitwiches who need to find another hobby.

That's cool.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571159Air?  What air?

1d20-1=1 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3653132/)

I swear, there's only been like 2 rolls over 6 so far for either of us :)

Gods, I think this dice roller hates you.

OK, MGuy - what is your action?

Well Declan expresses his POV with over the top, offensive language, but I basically agree with his point: this thread just shows how anal-retentive, rules-lawyery some players can be, and how 3rd ed becomes a nightmare to play under these conditions.

I acknowledge some people see some fun in counting modifiers and checking the rules book for every move they make, since for them the rules system pretty much IS the game, but I never found any fun in that, personally, even while running 3rd ed myself.

I was fortunate enough to have players who didn't care about such things. I play 3rd ed with like-minded people now. It can be fun. Under certain conditions. The approach displayed here is pretty much antithetical to anything I consider fun in an RPG. I did break game systems, I did optimize characters outrageously in my day, like pretty much any gamer I'd expect. And yet... I just don't find it any fun anymore. It's too easy, and kind of pointless when the GM can outgun you in pretty much every case, if he's so willing.

It's not in my nature to bitch that "the game isn't fair". I like a good challenge. I like that the GM can throw pretty much anything at me and keep me on my toes. That's the way I have the most fun with the game. When I have to overcome significant obstacles and deal with the situation, whatever it may be. I like to play low-level magic users in particular because I like the challenge. Some gamers will never get that. I'm fine with it.

I'll shut up and let you go on with the thunderdome now.

Quote from: Benoist;571252Well Declan expresses his POV with over the top, offensive language

Declan is just trying to troll this thread because I make his penis feel small.

Quote from: Benoist;571252I'll shut up and let you go on with the thunderdome now.

Thank you.

13 pages in and nary a drop of blood. Just like the actual gaming table I suppose. If this were B/X it would have been settled by now. :cool:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;57126213 pages in and nary a drop of blood. Just like the actual gaming table I suppose. If this were B/X it would have been settled by now. :cool:

Blah, blah, blah, if this wasn't being done over the internet, was at a tabletop, and I didn't have to work for a living this would have been done in an hour. :rolleyes:

Quote from: jeff37923;571269Blah, blah, blah, if this wasn't being done over the internet, was at a tabletop, and I didn't have to work for a living this would have been done in an hour. :rolleyes:

Or less.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571290Or less.

Definitely less.

Quote from: jeff37923;571255Declan is just trying to troll this thread because I make his penis feel small.

That's weird. Your wife has been complaining about how much I stretch her out.

Anyway...I just wanted to let you and your friends know that you're a bunch of assholes who are turning D&D into M:tG and now the hobby sucks because of you. Also, I hope your 3.5 reprints come with free anthrax.

I'll let you get back to your McJob now.

Quote from: Benoist;571252I was fortunate enough to have players who didn't care about such things. I play 3rd ed with like-minded people now. It can be fun. Under certain conditions. The approach displayed here is pretty much antithetical to anything I consider fun in an RPG. I did break game systems, I did optimize characters outrageously in my day, like pretty much any gamer I'd expect. And yet... I just don't find it any fun anymore. It's too easy, and kind of pointless when the GM can outgun you in pretty much every case, if he's so willing.

Yeah but at that point you might as well be playing AD&D 1, if you're not in it for the autistic number fellating.

Here's the problem with 3rd edition...the people for whom it is the game of choice are assholes.

Just to be clear...I'm not stating that playing the game makes them assholes...merely that the game appeals to them precisely BECAUSE they are assholes.

D&D 3rd edition takes all of the shittiest gamer traits and rewards them. That game is written for rules lawyers, and munchkins, and powergamers...just running the game at upper levels is a rules mastery arms race, or else whoever has the most sourcebooks is just going to bully the rest of the table around. This is the target audience for 3E...the most whiny, petulant, entitled, self-centered, antisocial gamers out there. The fact that it appears to be the most popular just goes to show how utterly feculent the hobby has become, and why it deserves to die.

And rest assured...it will die. Eventually the shitwalll barring entry will become so impenetrable that no one new will join...and the old guard will all die of renal failure. We aren't keeping it alive...we're keeping it hooked up to machines like Terry Schiavo. I give it two agonizing decades of lingering, rotting, slow death.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571320Yeah but at that point you might as well be playing AD&D 1, if you're not in it for the autistic number fellating.

Here's the problem with 3rd edition...the people for whom it is the game of choice are assholes.

Just to be clear...I'm not stating that playing the game makes them assholes...merely that the game appeals to them precisely BECAUSE they are assholes.

D&D 3rd edition takes all of the shittiest gamer traits and rewards them. That game is written for rules lawyers, and munchkins, and powergamers...just running the game at upper levels is a rules mastery arms race, or else whoever has the most sourcebooks is just going to bully the rest of the table around. This is the target audience for 3E...the most whiny, petulant, entitled, self-centered, antisocial gamers out there. The fact that it appears to be the most popular just goes to show how utterly feculent the hobby has become, and why it deserves to die.

And rest assured...it will die. Eventually the shitwalll barring entry will become so impenetrable that no one new will join...and the old guard will all die of renal failure. We aren't keeping it alive...we're keeping it hooked up to machines like Terry Schiavo. I give it two agonizing decades of lingering, rotting, slow death.

Gonna take this to its own thread wait.

EDIT - Done. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23744)

Quote from: Benoist;571325Gonna take this to its own thread wait.

EDIT - Done. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23744)

Good, you and McMuffin can fellate each other somewhere else and stop being a site disruption on this thread.

MGuy, Panzerkracken, the distance between you both is now 240 ft. Panzercracken, you need a DC 15 Spot check to see anything in the air with you.

Quote from: jeff37923;571634MGuy, Panzerkracken, the distance between you both is now 240 ft. Panzercracken, you need a DC 15 Spot check to see anything in the air with you.

Well, it's something

1d20-1=17 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3654936/)

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My god...what a fucking boring, awful, soulless way to play.

How can you stand yourselves? Seriously. are you aware that people are actually out there living life while you are busy fastidiously moving numbers between columns for the sake of a stupid game.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

I'll tell you how this little exercise ends...you ALL lose by virtue of wasting your time on this aspie bullshit.

Shouldn't the mounts get perception checks too? They're probably better at seeing dangerous flying things then their riders are.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571675My god...what a fucking boring, awful, soulless way to play.

How can you stand yourselves? Seriously. are you aware that people are actually out there living life while you are busy fastidiously moving numbers between columns for the sake of a stupid game.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

I'll tell you how this little exercise ends...you ALL lose by virtue of wasting your time on this aspie bullshit.

C'mon, DMM, Ben made a whole thread for you to abuse us in, can you keep it there?  I promise I'm reading it, so I'm not missing out on you at all.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571691C'mon, DMM, Ben made a whole thread for you to abuse us in, can you keep it there?  I promise I'm reading it, so I'm not missing out on you at all.

Yes please. I wanna see how many pages it takes just for these guys to detect each other and the random hate bombs just keep throwing off the page count.

Quote from: jeff37923;571633Good, you and McMuffin can fellate each other somewhere else and stop being a site disruption on this thread.

You mean like you read in diagonal in that other thread and get mad at stuff people are actually not saying? Oh, okay. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Benoist;571705You mean like you read in diagonal in that other thread and get mad at stuff people are actually not saying? Oh, okay. :rolleyes:

Keep shitting up this thread, O Site Disruption.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571636Well, it's something

1d20-1=17 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3654936/)

There is a high flying hawk above you that you see.

Quote from: jeff37923;571740There is a high flying hawk above you that you see.

Those can't be that uncommon, but since I'm nearing those copses of trees, I'll drop my altitude and pick up speed a bit, arcing around them in a lazy S to see if there's any scouts hiding in them.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;571701Yes please. I wanna see how many pages it takes just for these guys to detect each other and the random hate bombs just keep throwing off the page count.

Seems to me that in a good game this could all be sorted out with an initiative roll.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;571770Seems to me that in a good game this could all be sorted out with an initiative roll.

Threadcrapping at its best from MacAnus...

MGuy, it is your move.

Gaaawwwd....this is boring as fuck.

Are you playing 3.x or Spot Check: The Watchin-ing?

I wonder if Jeff's real life players cut themselves at his table to cure the monotony...

I've just registered here specifically to tell you guys how much fun I'm having looking in on your dinky little war. The tension really is something else. It's like those wonderfull games of chess you sometimes see in the movies(like bladerunner iirc) except with little wizards and shit. Can't wait 'til it starts...

My thunderdome is rolling right along. In fact we've gone thirty six hours forward, then 24 back, then...

Well, at least I'm casting magics...and my dice are working about as well as usual (Only I can fail my one and only divination with an 80% chance of success... and my scrying, and my... well, lets not talk about the Commune spell. Its very sad...)

It's seriously not worth putting a lot of work into doing this. Even if/when I kill this fighter no one's opinion about anything will change. At this point though I don't think there's anything else I need to say about the Wiz v Fighter. Everyone in the original thread has admitted openly to actively ignoring/changing the rules of the game to suit them such that any actual difference in power is obscured by those changes or by giving the fighter enough magic equipment that he's practically a magical character anyway.

This challenge has already shown that my intentionally poorly made conjurer can beat the best fighter panzer can make in combat (since combat is all the fighter can do effectively). The only thing is just that I have to get within casting distance (because for the sake of this challenge I care about killing the horse riding fighter) then win the fight. Rince and repeat for the next two scenarios.

Now I'm lost...

Is Jeff90210 stalling so that a fight never actually breaks out?

Or is MGuy just running away with his tail inbetween his legs?

Which party is bitching out here?

OK, if you want to quit this exercise, than let me know now.

I understand this is taking a long time. I work for a living and cannot access this site from my workplace, so it takes awhile to do the turns.

Quote from: jeff37923;572589OK, if you want to quit this exercise, than let me know now.

I understand this is taking a long time. I work for a living and cannot access this site from my workplace, so it takes awhile to do the turns.

Get a grownup job so you can spend half your day doing things other than what they actually pay you for like the rest of us.

I'm supposed to be running root cause analyses and updating technical process specs right now. Instead I'm shitting on your thread and checking out the indian girl a few cubicles over. For money.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;572598checking out the indian girl a few cubicles over.

Pics or it didn't happen.

MGuy, are you quitting?

Quote from: Rum Cove;572654MGuy, are you quitting?

He doesn't have a fellow BMX-Zealot as GM like Kaelik does, so he's worried now.

I got the definite impression that he intends to defeat the Fighter in three different scenarios; he just recognizes that nobody will change their mind.  

Of course, he's right.  Once the Wizard makes the Fighter look completely useless, people will once again point out that it doesn't matter since they're supposed to be on the same team, and even if the Fighter's contribution is UNNECESSARY, he can still contribute SOMETHING (even if it's just a pair of hands).  But let's keep that in the right thread, shall we?  

Mguy will get this done.  I know he's putting his moves in PMs.  Probably can't reveal them publicly because the Fighter still doesn't see him.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;572715I got the definite impression that he intends to defeat the Fighter in three different scenarios; he just recognizes that nobody will change their mind.  

Of course, he's right.  Once the Wizard makes the Fighter look completely useless, people will once again point out that it doesn't matter since they're supposed to be on the same team, and even if the Fighter's contribution is UNNECESSARY, he can still contribute SOMETHING (even if it's just a pair of hands).  But let's keep that in the right thread, shall we?  

Mguy will get this done.  I know he's putting his moves in PMs.  Probably can't reveal them publicly because the Fighter still doesn't see him.

Pretty much this. I don't know how people read what I wrote as "I quit"

Well, that was a lot of typing... So what's MGuy's move? Or is Jeff still waiting?

MGuy, if you don't understand why people think you were quitting, I'll help ya out.

Quote from: MGuy;572468It's seriously not worth putting a lot of work into doing this.

Reads a lot like "I'm done".


 

QuoteAt this point though I don't think there's anything else I need to say about the Wiz v Fighter.

Also reads a lot like "I'm done".

 

Quoteor by giving the fighter enough magic equipment that he's practically a magical character anyway.

This doesn't, but I'd like to reflect on the fact that every D&D character gets enough magical items to practically be a magical character anyway. That this happens to be more useful to melee types than magic types in no way means that mundane melee types are somehow inferior.  Heck, I could turn it around and point out that being deliberately gimped in Hit Points and useable items in return for innate spell casting is actually weaker in D&D level progression scheme, where almost any spell you want and or need is available in a magic item.

I don't because I respect men who like to wear dresses for their lifestyle choices.

QuoteThis challenge has already shown that my intentionally poorly made conjurer can beat the best fighter panzer can make in combat (since combat is all the fighter can do effectively).

Now: This reads like "I'm declaring myself the winner, so I'm done."

Now, maybe you've managed to do something cool that NO ONE but you and Jeff have seen so far.  But to the rest of us? It looks a lot like you and Panzer flying around blindly... or maybe just Panzer (since I still never saw you make a spot check...)


See all those phrases you used, just in one short post that can all be easily read as "I'm done"?

That might just be why people, including the GM, thought you were quitting.

So are you quitting or not guys? I hope not, I want to see it kick off. And the weekends here now so... etc... etc...

The hawk has banked is following you in your flight.


Panzerkraken, it is your move.

Panzerkraken has turned his mount towards the hawk and is closing with it while making ready a bow.

MGuy, your move.

If he's closed in then you already know my move. We were... 244ft apart before I made my last move to close in. If I'm in range you already know what my plan is.

Quote from: Spike;572958MGuy, if you don't understand why people think you were quitting, I'll help ya out.

M'k

QuoteReads a lot like "I'm done".

Only if you read "Don't put much work into it" as "I quit", and I'm sure to some people it may, I can lazily do a play by post and I'm not going to rush jeff along for this largely pointless exercise. Also, considering this was in response to the match taking too long I doubly don't see how this would = I quit.

QuoteAlso reads a lot like "I'm done".

It reads like "I'm done with the wiz v fighter thread/conversation" considering that's what I was saying.

QuoteThis doesn't, but I'd like to reflect on the fact that every D&D character gets enough magical items to practically be a magical character anyway. That this happens to be more useful to melee types than magic types in no way means that mundane melee types are somehow inferior.  Heck, I could turn it around and point out that being deliberately gimped in Hit Points and useable items in return for innate spell casting is actually weaker in D&D level progression scheme, where almost any spell you want and or need is available in a magic item.

A few things, which I'm sure I've already pointed out. You use the word "more useful" for melee types. No, it's more necessary period for those who don't have awesome. Magic items are less necessary for wizardy casting types but still very useful. Were I inclined to show off what I could do by bending wealth by level over my knee I would have, but this is a match that's supposed to show what the classes can do. In it I intend to prove that the CLASS itself without any overt shennanigans (wealth by level magic items shennanigans, planar binding cheese, cohort help, etc) can beat the best fighter that this guy can make in core. He chose to make a cohort aided flying archer and so I have to just beat that.

What's more is I don't know what edition you're referring to because a melee fighter in third can't do melee in third without charOP or serious magic item allotment. at higher levels The former requires that the fighter resort to one button tactics and have access to more books and the latter may not even help enough. Then it sticks more because the higher level you are the less the fighter can actually do melee without the dreaded "character builds".

QuoteI don't because I respect men who like to wear dresses for their lifestyle choices.

Not sure what your transgender phobia has to do with what's going on here but your disrespect for other people's harmless life choices is noted.

QuoteNow: This reads like "I'm declaring myself the winner, so I'm done."

Then let me clarify. Best plan that the fighter here could come up with is to get on a flying cohort horse and specifically stay as far away from me as possible so he can't possibly get into a melee fight hoping that my wizard would stand still and die while he plunks him with arrows from far away. Not exactly the smartest plan considering all the options I have for evasion and escape, but of course to the fighter there is no "escape" from battle or avoiding it to do something smarter. There is only direct conflict. So I'm playing into the fighter's arena style combat that he's beholden to because there's nothing else the fighter can do.

QuoteNow, maybe you've managed to do something cool that NO ONE but you and Jeff have seen so far.  But to the rest of us? It looks a lot like you and Panzer flying around blindly... or maybe just Panzer (since I still never saw you make a spot check...)

The fact that while panzer was flying around and couldn't see me while I'm doing things in secret should enlighten you like it did DeadDM that I am probably approaching this carefully as I think my character would. I mean didn't your little party just now "get" to the caves they are s'posed to be exploring? Didn't you have your caster do up some auguries or some shit? Complaining about how I have to get in range to do stuff at all is an odd thing considering it wasn't my choice to start off this far away.

QuoteSee all those phrases you used, just in one short post that can all be easily read as "I'm done"?

That might just be why people, including the GM, thought you were quitting.

I just think it's funny that DeadDM read it exactly the way it was intended AND was able to accurately tell what I was probably doing and why. Hell the only reason jeff was confused is because he didn't see me give him the Ride Check he asked for. So no, your reasoning and the other's do not seem like they have any real weight to them.

Panzerkraken, the hawk has dissappeared and been replaced by what appears to be a wizard on the back of a hippogriff who is casting a spell within 200 feet of you.

MGuy, I need to know the center of your spell.

Quote from: jeff37923;573194Panzerkraken, the hawk has dissappeared and been replaced by what appears to be a wizard on the back of a hippogriff who is casting a spell within 200 feet of you.

MGuy, I need to know the center of your spell.

I'd like to make a ride check to try to evade; wingover and drop altitude in a dive.

There's no reflex save for this spell. I center it right in front of his mount.

A Solid Fog spell has been cast and has formed in front of Panzerkraken's mount. He is in the midst of it. The fog is a 20 foot radius spherical cloud that obscures Panzerkraken from sight within it and prevents him from seeing MGuy outside of it (total concealment).

Panzerkraken, it is your move.

Quote from: jeff37923;573274A Solid Fog spell has been cast and has formed in front of Panzerkraken's mount. He is in the midst of it. The fog is a 20 foot radius spherical cloud that obscures Panzerkraken from sight within it and prevents him from seeing MGuy outside of it (total concealment).

Panzerkraken, it is your move.

So with the mount being unable to maintain forward momentum (required to fly) what happens?  Does the mount start falling requiring the Reflex saves to regain control of flight?

Quote from: jeff37923;573274A Solid Fog spell has been cast and has formed in front of Panzerkraken's mount. He is in the midst of it. The fog is a 20 foot radius spherical cloud that obscures Panzerkraken from sight within it and prevents him from seeing MGuy outside of it (total concealment).

Panzerkraken, it is your move.

Continue the dive, albeit slower.  My mount only has average maneuverability, so since he can only move at 5'/rd, then that's about the only choice.  I'll come out of it in a corkscrew dive and try to gain some distance.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573275So with the mount being unable to maintain forward momentum (required to fly) what happens?  Does the mount start falling requiring the Reflex saves to regain control of flight?

I was already expecting to be diving, so we'll just continue that and I'll reassure him that he just needs to keep his dive going when we come out the bottom.  He has a 10 INT

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573275So with the mount being unable to maintain forward momentum (required to fly) what happens?  Does the mount start falling requiring the Reflex saves to regain control of flight?

Mount should begin falling. I'm assuming there's gonna be a Ride Check for staying in the saddle as the horse falls. Reflex save for the horse to recover. 20 I believe is the reflex save though the GM may rule that it should be higher considering the armor laden man on his back. I don't think it matters much either way as I assume he has something feather fall-ish since he has a flying mount.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;573278I was already expecting to be diving, so we'll just continue that and I'll reassure him that he just needs to keep his dive going when we come out the bottom.  He has a 10 INT

Can't. He can only move 5ft a round in solid fog. He can't "dive" out of the cloud since "diving" is him moving. He can only fall and try to recover after falling out of it. He has to fly 5ft before making a dive and 5ft is all he can move.

Quote from: MGuy;573283Can't. He can only move 5ft a round in solid fog. He can't "dive" out of the cloud since "diving" is him moving. He can only fall and try to recover after falling out of it.

Shhh. You can GM some other time.

In clarification, I want him to rotate himself so he has his nose pointed downward, and fold his wings so that when we leave the cloud, he's diving.  He won't be moving any faster than the cloud will allow, which gives him plenty of time to flutter his wings and wriggle around to change his facing.

Hey McGuy,

How about letting the GM do his job. Do you behave like this at the gaming table?

Jeff called for an action from Panzerkraken without providing any information about what was happening - other than he was in a solid fog spell.  

Now, maybe Jeff sent a PM explaining what that means, but those of us in the audience didn't see it.  

It's fair to offer our interpretation of what would happen and ask if the GM considered this rule or that rule - because three-dimensional flying combat probably doesn't happen that many times in a typical campaign.

He also won't fall out of the sky either, not really.  Solid fog cushions falling characters in the spell description, and I'd suggest that Panzer and his mount are limited to falling to 5' a round.

My question is, of course, if the fog itself falls.

Quote from: Spike;573304He also won't fall out of the sky either, not really.  Solid fog cushions falling characters in the spell description, and I'd suggest that Panzer and his mount are limited to falling to 5' a round.

My question is, of course, if the fog itself falls.

LOL.  That would be hilarious.

Quote from: Spike;573304He also won't fall out of the sky either, not really.  Solid fog cushions falling characters in the spell description, and I'd suggest that Panzer and his mount are limited to falling to 5' a round.

My question is, of course, if the fog itself falls.

Clearly falling THROUGH it cushions you.  But if you penetrate the cloud (which may take a few rounds at the rate you're moving) that's when you might start REALLY falling.  

As for whether the spell falls, I don't think so, but I guess the DM's interpretation might be different.  The spell cloudkill which is similar in many respects specifically talks about how it sinks to the lowest point (filling pits and such), but there's nothing like that in the description of solid fog.  I'd tend to think of it as basically 'fixed in space' for the duration - anything else should result in filling low spaces.  If they went through the trouble to describe it for cloudkill and not copy/paste it for the description of solid fog, it seems like that was not the designer's intention.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573302Jeff called for an action from Panzerkraken without providing any information about what was happening - other than he was in a solid fog spell.  

Now, maybe Jeff sent a PM explaining what that means, but those of us in the audience didn't see it.  

It's fair to offer our interpretation of what would happen and ask if the GM considered this rule or that rule - because three-dimensional flying combat probably doesn't happen that many times in a typical campaign.

Three dimensional combat comes up more often than you think at higher levels when half of the opposition can fly. I've often felt 3 dimensional combats were a pain in the ass to run but flying is cool.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573310Clearly falling THROUGH it cushions you.  But if you penetrate the cloud (which may take a few rounds at the rate you're moving) that's when you might start REALLY falling.  

As for whether the spell falls, I don't think so, but I guess the DM's interpretation might be different.  The spell cloudkill which is similar in many respects specifically talks about how it sinks to the lowest point (filling pits and such), but there's nothing like that in the description of solid fog.  I'd tend to think of it as basically 'fixed in space' for the duration - anything else should result in filling low spaces.  If they went through the trouble to describe it for cloudkill and not copy/paste it for the description of solid fog, it seems like that was not the designer's intention.

Well certainly.

Though: If he can only fall 5' per round (or, given how falling damage is treated, falls at half speed, but then too, what is the stall speed/glide ratio of a hippogriff?), but the FOG is falling at full speed (and will disperse when it gets to 31mph of falling speed from the wind sheer.... technically the fog falls faster than he can, and if he and the hippogriff can just maintain altitude for a round or two they'll be out of the fog just by letting it drop away.


In theory. There are at least three variables that only the DM (Jeff) can answer.

Quote from: Spike;573315Well certainly.

Though: If he can only fall 5' per round (or, given how falling damage is treated, falls at half speed, but then too, what is the stall speed/glide ratio of a hippogriff?), but the FOG is falling at full speed (and will disperse when it gets to 31mph of falling speed from the wind sheer.... technically the fog falls faster than he can, and if he and the hippogriff can just maintain altitude for a round or two they'll be out of the fog just by letting it drop away.


In theory. There are at least three variables that only the DM (Jeff) can answer.

There are a number of ways to rule it beyond three but I'm assuming it just worked and is in place since jeff didn't say different when he asked for Panzaer's turn.

I said three variables. The potential rulings are theoretically infinite, though a vast majority of those would have everyone on both sides asking Jeff what he was smoking.

And I was ballparking the variables.

Also: Panzerkrakens avatar is Toshiro Mifune. Looks to be from Yojimbo, but could be the sequel (whose name escapes at hte moment.)

How about letting the DM decide. I'll repeat the question: do you guys act like this at an actual gaming table?

Quote from: Benoist;573322How about letting the DM decide. I'll repeat the question: do you guys act like this at an actual gaming table?

As a general rule, at an actual table you don't have to wait several hours for the DM to speak while casting offensive spells against another player who will of course have a reason to interpret your result differently.

Quote from: Kaelik;573324As a general rule, at an actual table you don't have to wait several hours for the DM to speak while casting offensive spells against another player who will of course have a reason to interpret your result differently.

Still. Do you feel compelled to point out these kinds of things and debate away while the DM looks up something behind the screen or is at the loo? That's your usual MO at a game table?

What if the DM had just said what Jeff posted in his last post. Would you interrupt the game in this way?

Quote from: Benoist;573330Still. Do you feel compelled to point out these kinds of things and debate away while the DM looks up something behind the screen or is at the loo? That's your usual MO at a game table?

What if the DM had just said what Jeff posted in his last post. Would you interrupt the game in this way?

In what way? I assume no one would be asking about table MOs, so I would not feel the need to point out that the DM usually takes less than three hours to make a decision.

Quote from: Kaelik;573331In what way? I assume no one would be asking about table MOs, so I would not feel the need to point out that the DM usually takes less than three hours to make a decision.

In the way you just did here, at an actual game table. If the DM had just said what Jeff just posted and nothing more, saying to MGuy across the table "your move", would you have intervened like you just did here talking about the spell and what it ought to do with Panzer's mount?

Well, to be honest, I'm just as guilty as Kaelik, but your analogy is flawed.

See, we're watching Bobby Fischer vs Kasparov (or something) from the audience and analyzing their moves.

Kaelik (and I) are not in the game, so talking about how we'd act as if we were is disingenious at best.


And since there is, like, Forum Pride or something on the line, a frank and open discussion about rulings... which are subjective... will make after action reviews much less acrimonious, as we'll have already stated our opinions up front about various calls made.

And since the forum is already choked with thunderdome threads, trying to force everyone who WANTS to chat from the sidelines into new threads is probably a non-starter.  Besides, I'd rather have Kaelik talking about the spell than Declan McManus flinging shit at everyone. Again.

I thought the whole point was actual play. My mistake.

The Solid Fog remains stationary at the point where the spell was targetted. It is essentially a solid cloud in the sky and thus a terrain feature for its 200 minute duration.

Falling or flying, Panzerkraken can only move 5 feet per round while inside the 20 foot radius Solid Fog cloud. However, that produces a new concealment problem.

MGuy, you know that Panzerkraken is inside the cloud, however with every combat round his location inside that cloud moves to an unknown spot within a sphere expanding by a 5 foot radius per combat round. The soonest he can escape the Solid Fog is 4 combat rounds, but he could decide to stay in there for as long as it lasts.

I'd rule that a flyer could maintain altitude in a cloud of solid fog if it wanted – if it's thick enough to block the flyer's movement to 5' per round, it's thick enough for the flyer to essentially swim in.

Also, since these experiments are attracting attention both trollish and actual. It is my intention to do an open after scenario analysis like you would do any combat exercise for those interested in the actual play.

Quote from: Imp;573347

I'd rule that a flyer could maintain altitude in a cloud of solid fog if it wanted – if it's thick enough to block the flyer's movement to 5' per round, it's thick enough for the flyer to essentially swim in.

Pretty much what I thought since it would take a 11 mph or 21+ mph wind to move a Solid Fog.

Well, I obviously disagree about the Solid Fog floating, but I certainly agree that the Hippogriff wouldn't be falling wildly out of control (if very slowly...). But I'm not the DM, and I certainly wouldn't contest the flying fog ruling at the table.

Mostly because if I hate the DM's rulings all the time I just run a game where I can rule the way I think is right. :p


But, to clarify: I do think it is a reasonable call. Just not MY call.

Quote from: Spike;573370Well, I obviously disagree about the Solid Fog floating, but I certainly agree that the Hippogriff wouldn't be falling wildly out of control (if very slowly...). But I'm not the DM, and I certainly wouldn't contest the flying fog ruling at the table.

Mostly because if I hate the DM's rulings all the time I just run a game where I can rule the way I think is right. :p


But, to clarify: I do think it is a reasonable call. Just not MY call.

Thing is, we all have different styles of DMing. That is one of the great things about tabletop RPGs that I enjoy. It is always different every time.

Quote from: jeff37923;573396Thing is, we all have different styles of DMing. That is one of the great things about tabletop RPGs that I enjoy. It is always different every time.

So the decision stands. In that case, with the fighter disposed of for effectively the entire time it would take to have an actual combat (if there were of course another objective) I'd claim victory right here and right now considering I just shut the fighter and everything he could possibly do right now in a single move. I negated the possibility of him ever shooting me in the previous, long and drawn out move. However I'm really sure, that I will be demanded to actually kill the fighter to make my point (even though I have no reason to and he effectively can't do shit to me right now or for four turns) and can't just choose this time to leave this completely disabled threat right?

Quote from: MGuy;573424So the decision stands. In that case, with the fighter disposed of for effectively the entire time it would take to have an actual combat (if there were of course another objective) I'd claim victory right here and right now considering I just shut the fighter and everything he could possibly do right now in a single move. I negated the possibility of him ever shooting me in the previous, long and drawn out move. However I'm really sure, that I will be demanded to actually kill the fighter to make my point (even though I have no reason to and he effectively can't do shit to me right now or for four turns) and can't just choose this time to leave this completely disabled threat right?

This is the Thunderdome.

Two men enter. One man leaves.

Actually: your obsessive desire to keep every one of your actions, with the exception of that single spell, confined to a PM hurts your case. We can't, as witnesses, objectively measure what you did fairly since, just like we can't measure your character as we haven't see it, we don't actually know.

Further: unless the stated goal was 'can I annoy the fighter for four rounds' you haven't made the case for anything yet. I could, for example, prove victory based on the conditions you declared simply by... not showing up to the fight.

You seem to suffer from premature exclamation.

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Quote from: Benoist;573338In the way you just did here, at an actual game table. If the DM had just said what Jeff just posted and nothing more, saying to MGuy across the table "your move", would you have intervened like you just did here talking about the spell and what it ought to do with Panzer's mount?

Benoist, stop being an idiot for six whole seconds.

Would I have intervened like I just did here to talk about the spell and what it ought to do?

I don't know Benoist, can you point to any place in this thread where I, at any point, talked about what the Solid Fog spell would do?

Can you point to any such instance?

No, you can't. Stop being an idiot.

Huh, I didn't know delaying someone for four rounds in 3e counts as victory. This will be useful next time I play it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;573462Huh, I didn't know delaying someone for four rounds in 3e counts as victory. This will be useful next time I play it.

Mguy points out that if his mission were anything other than killing his opponent, four rounds is enough time to claim victory.  If the fighter were guarding the Jeweled McGuffin, at the back of the cave, or on the ground below him, Mguy could grab it and go.  If the Fighter were guarding a prisoner, they could make good their escape.  

Thunderdome has a very different 'victory condition' than most D&D fights.  You don't usually need to KILL every wandering monster.  Disabling the monster long enough to bypass it usually is fine, too.  Most PCs do KILL the monster, but that's just because they can.  

If Mguy had any mission other than 'kill the Fighter' or possibly 'take something the Fighter has on his person', he could complete that mission while the Fighter was incapacitated.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573467Mguy points out that if his mission were anything other than killing his opponent, four rounds is enough time to claim victory.  If the fighter were guarding the Jeweled McGuffin, at the back of the cave, or on the ground below him, Mguy could grab it and go.  If the Fighter were guarding a prisoner, they could make good their escape.  

Thunderdome has a very different 'victory condition' than most D&D fights.  You don't usually need to KILL every wandering monster.  Disabling the monster long enough to bypass it usually is fine, too.  Most PCs do KILL the monster, but that's just because they can.  

If Mguy had any mission other than 'kill the Fighter' or possibly 'take something the Fighter has on his person', he could complete that mission while the Fighter was incapacitated.

If the item or prisoner was near the fighter he has achieved diddly squat.

So far all I've seen is the wizard expend some limited resources. In a real game that matters (as opposed to the 'denners' reality where he wizard always has a full load).

Don't get me wrong, MGuy does gain a tactical advantage. There are a number of way he can use the four rounds.

Just as there are a few ways Panzerkraken can do things too. If PK leaves the fog from an unaticipated angle it could be a tactical wash for MG. If PK just... hangs out with a readied action, waiting for the fog to clear it could be a wash, or he could be setting himself up for further abuse.

But lets not mistake that slowing someone to 5' a turn, flying or not, in a solid fog is anything other than a significant advantage.

Victory, however, still needs to be actually claimed.

nitpick: feel free to ignore


 the spell description say that it spread in "20 feet radius 20 feet high", not 20 feet deep. the description assume the spell is cast at ground level, but I still think the cloud is actually only 20 feet high.
So, either there is no fog under Panzerkraken's mount or there is only 10 feet or it, it depend if you read the center of the spell as the geometrical center or as the origin point.

Yeah, sorry.

Quote from: Spike;573321Also: Panzerkrakens avatar is Toshiro Mifune. Looks to be from Yojimbo, but could be the sequel (whose name escapes at hte moment.)

Since I haven't got my permanet Kudo yet, nor have I been told I was dead wrong, the movie who's named escaped me just came to me: Sanjuro.

I won't attempt to remember the character's name as he gives a different, obvious lie, in each movie.

Quote from: Spike;573504Since I haven't got my permanet Kudo yet, nor have I been told I was dead wrong, the movie who's named escaped me just came to me: Sanjuro.

I won't attempt to remember the character's name as he gives a different, obvious lie, in each movie.

You were correct on the first count of the actor, and the second of the movie, and it IS Toshiro Mifune, as Thirty Years Old in Sanjuro.

Sorry, I've been pretty much ignoring the peanut gallery in this thread.  You kudo will go in my sig, and I'll swap back to my OTHER esoteric avatar.

I choose to use Mifune because of all the old west people, I thought I'd draw on some of the real roots of those movies like the Magnificent Seven and such.

Huzzah!!

I love Mifune, especially with Kurosawa.... or the other way 'round.

And yojimbo, of course, is one of the most copied of all his movies, yet sanjuro was, I think, somewhat superior... if a bit less universal a tale.

Quote from: Spike;573523Huzzah!!

I love Mifune, especially with Kurosawa.... or the other way 'round.

And yojimbo, of course, is one of the most copied of all his movies, yet sanjuro was, I think, somewhat superior... if a bit less universal a tale.

I definitely prefer Sanjuro, but my favorite is The Hidden Fortress, its a classic formula.  But that's off topic.

Quote from: jeff37923;573429This is the Thunderdome.

Two men enter. One man leaves.

I figured as much. Just laying it out there.

And don't worry Spike. After the battle(s) end I'm sure jeff wouldn't mind letting you know just how simple the tactics I am using are.

You obviously missed the point of my comment.  Not surprising at all.

Quote from: Spike;573430Actually: your obsessive desire to keep every one of your actions, with the exception of that single spell, confined to a PM hurts your case. We can't, as witnesses, objectively measure what you did fairly since, just like we can't measure your character as we haven't see it, we don't actually know.

Sounds a lot like saying you can't take measure of what I'm doing because I'm being secretive. "You'll see afterward" seems like the appropriate response to that idea.

QuoteFurther: unless the stated goal was 'can I annoy the fighter for four rounds' you haven't made the case for anything yet. I could, for example, prove victory based on the conditions you declared simply by... not showing up to the fight.

You seem to suffer from premature exclamation.

I felt no need to comment on this part because I know I've already covered this ground, but let'sdo this dance again. To start this is a "surprise" fight. If my wizard had been scheduled to fight the fighter (like you know, known in advanced I would be for some reason flying around to some useless location to fight somebody that could never, on his own, stop me from doin anything I wanted to be doing) I wouldn't have started 1000ft away from him, I would've teleported in with my summons already called and gangraped him before he could even make the spot check to identify everything I brought with me. So this already isn't a real fight. These aren't "adventure" characters either because if mine was one my spell selection would've logically been bigger because that's the common fucking sense thing for me to do and it is trivially easy to do so. So right out the ate I'm more awesome than the fighter despite conditions that specifically favor him.

Beyond that I gimped myself purposefully to make a point. I didn't spend all of my wealth, didn't grab lesser planar binding on a scroll, didn't get a cohort wizard, didn't break use magic device over my knee to make it my bitch. So I specifically kept my abilities save for 2 items, in the realm of things my conjurer can do on his own. So not only am I playin in the fighter's conditions I'm doing so while relying on things my character can do with shit on his character sheet without getting things that I can't actually use from outside sources.

Now the real kicker about why I am "prematurely" claiming victory is that I effectively disabled the fighter. He literally (and I'm betting he doesn't have a magic item to counter this) can't do shit to me right now. If I knew where he lived I could teleport to his home and destroy everythin he ever cared for and he wouldn't even be able to see me leave to do it. Were I in his position though I'd still have options both offensive and defensive. What's worse (for him) is I'm a conjuerer. 4 Rounds with uninterrupted shennanigans? That benefits ME. So what if I can't see him. I don't need to because I'm a fucking wizard and even aainst invisible threats I have options.

These thins are the factors that make the fighter shit. These thins were the point I was making in the Fighter vWizard thread. The fact that I specifically asked about victory conditions before the battle is because this is what I expected. I have to completely compete with the fighter on the only terms a fighter can participate. Battle. I've effectively negated the fighter's ability to DO battle. That is why I'm already counting a personal victory. Killing him is just going to have to be the final nail in this stupid fucking coffin.

Quote from: MGuy;573578Robble Robble Robble

So what you're saying is that you're the winner whether you win or lose, since you've already set all the conditions and purposefully gimped yourself so that if you DO lose, it's because you didn't have a chance to adequately prepare etc etc etc?

If you're the winner either way, why are you wasting your time?  Proving your point can't be THAT important, since if you DO lose you'll just say it was because you were gimped by the restrictions (that you agreed to pretty much at face value at the beginning of this).

So it's fine, declare yourself the victor and ride off into the sunset

(http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/wimplobleeding2.jpg?w=450)

The idea that he could lose seems ludicrous.  

But his point again seems to be lost.  If this were a competition of any kind other than 'kill the other guy' (like get the item first, get past the guard without being noticed, go murder this guys whole family) then he could do that while the Fighter is stuck in a solid fog.  

When he does win, you should understand that he could have won 'even harder' if he had done some actual character optimization.  He didn't.  He's not trying to show that 'it's easy to break the game with optimization'.  That could certainly be true, but again - not the point.  His point is that a non-optimized Wizard is better than an optimized-Fighter in every arena.  Combat (the one the Fighter is supposed to be good at), exploration, social interaction.  

There's no 'both are good in different ways' - there's just the Wizard being better in all aspects of the game.  And this is still Level 10.  It gets worse the higher the level is.

I realized in my own Thunderdome that by trying to under-optimize (instead of just making solid characters) by doing things like shorting bonus spells, thousands of gold in treasure and so forth that I was setting an unfair condition on Kaelik and robbing him of the ability to crow his 'inevitable' victory... so I fixed it.

Me? I'd like to get to the actual encounter some day, but I do feel vaguely obligated to go through the motions so that no one will be tempted to jump up and say that I didn't make a serious effort of it.

Nope: If he gets his TPK fair and square, it'll be fair and square, and not because I gave it too him.


The reason for openness is so that everyone can fairly evaluate, in real time (so to speak) what is actually going down.  True double blind play doesn't really happen at the table anyway.

We can't actually evaluate how fairly you got the drop on PK unless we see the ruling, nor can we evaluate your various tricks. We can GUESS what's going on, but an after the fact report isn't the same thing.


Not to mention incredibly boring.  You do realize that you are here to entertain me, don't you? Motherfucker?

Quote from: Spike;573609Me? I'd like to get to the actual encounter some day, but I do feel vaguely obligated to go through the motions so that no one will be tempted to jump up and say that I didn't make a serious effort of it.

Just pointing out that, per your request, I won't assume you move deeper into the dungeon unless you say so.

Quote from: Kaelik;573458Benoist, stop being an idiot for six whole seconds.

U mad? :)

Quote from: Benoist;573625U mad? :)

Hey Benoist, remember that time you said that Hitler was your hero and you can't wait to kill all the Jews?

U mad? :)

There, do I fit in now, I'm doing just like the mod, lying about what people said and then using 4chan terminology as if that excuses it.

Quote from: Kaelik;573626Hey Benoist, remember that time you said that Hitler was your hero and you can't wait to kill all the Jews?

U mad? :)

There, do I fit in now, I'm doing just like the mod, lying about what people said and then using 4chan terminology as if that excuses it.

Meh. You have to hone your skill, padawan. That's too over the top.

I think it says more about your perception bias than it does about me, in fact.

Quote from: Just Another User;573495nitpick: feel free to ignore


 the spell description say that it spread in "20 feet radius 20 feet high", not 20 feet deep. the description assume the spell is cast at ground level, but I still think the cloud is actually only 20 feet high.
So, either there is no fog under Panzerkraken's mount or there is only 10 feet or it, it depend if you read the center of the spell as the geometrical center or as the origin point.

Yeah, sorry.

No, I actually did consider this when the spell was cast. I just came to the conclusion that having a 20 foot radius sphere of a terrain feature would be more interesting. No worries.

Moves are being made via PM and I am waiting for a bit of clarification.

I also have to go to work again, so sit tight true believers!

Kaelik, you can take your pissing contest with Benoist to another thread and quit shitting up this one.

Quote from: jeff37923;573653Kaelik, you can take your pissing contest with Benoist to another thread and quit shitting up this one.

That would require him to stop starting shit in this thread. After all, I was telling you how Solid Fog should work... somewhere in here, Benoist is sure of that.

Kaelik, I don't give a fuck about what you have to say to Benoist. Just say it in another thread.

MGuy has summoned five Fiendish Dire Bats in the Solid Fog. Four of them will appear 5 feet or 10 feet away from Panzerkraken, although one will appear right next to him and his pegasus.

 Fight!

Quote from: jeff37923;573674MGuy has summoned five Fiendish Dire Bats in the Solid Fog. Four of them will appear 5 feet or 10 feet away from Panzerkraken, although one will appear right next to him and his pegasus.

 Fight!

I'll keep my bow in my off hand and pull my sword out of the quiver with my move action, then take a swing at the rat near me with my attack action.

Here's my results (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3661160/)

Edit:  Fair enough, Kaelik.  Obscuring Mist (1d100=56) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3661199/)

You probably should have rolled a miss chance too.

EDIT: Probably should have specified low or high as bad, for the future, but either way that should pass, unless jeff knows something (relevant) I don't know.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;573743I'll keep my bow in my off hand and pull my sword out of the quiver with my move action, then take a swing at the rat near me with my attack action.

Here's my results (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3661160/)

Edit:  Fair enough, Kaelik.  Obscuring Mist (1d100=56) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3661199/)

I would expect the conjurer to win.

Point of order. All 5 of them should be able to attack when they appear. They appear at the beginning of my turn and would all get their actions.

Quote from: Kaelik;573626Hey Benoist, remember that time you said that Hitler was your hero and you can't wait to kill all the Jews?

U mad? :)

There, do I fit in now, I'm doing just like the mod, lying about what people said and then using 4chan terminology as if that excuses it.

Actually, if a member had indeed said that, he would have been kicked.

Quote from: CRKrueger;573826Actually, if a member had indeed said that, he would have been kicked.

I obviously choose that on the principle that as a general rule, no one would make the mistake of thinking I actually thought he had said that.

Because the entire point is that Benoist claimed I said something, and then when I pointed out I didn't and asked him to provide proof, he responded with a stupid 4chan thing you say when you are obviously in the wrong but too stupid to admit it.

Now you really are just threadcrapping.  

Could we please request that you take your shitflinging somewhere else?  WvF needs more posts.

Quote from: MGuy;573765Point of order. All 5 of them should be able to attack when they appear. They appear at the beginning of my turn and would all get their actions.

Only one is in range of Panzerkraken to attack, the other four are 10 feet, 10 feet, 10 feet, and 15 feet away from him in a Solid Fog which is giving him and them total concealment (50 % miss chance) along with a -2 to melee attacks and damage.

The one in range of Panzerkraken is within 5 feet of him and may attack with the same -2 to hit and -2 damage and a 20 % miss chance for concealment. The bats do get to go first.

Of course, you could give them the advantage of dropping the Solid Fog which hinders them as well as it does Panzerkraken.

Quote from: jeff37923;573966Only one is in range of Panzerkraken to attack, the other four are 10 feet, 10 feet, 10 feet, and 15 feet away from him in a Solid Fog which is giving him and them total concealment (50 % miss chance) along with a -2 to melee attacks and damage.

The one in range of Panzerkraken is within 5 feet of him and may attack with the same -2 to hit and -2 damage and a 20 % miss chance for concealment. The bats do get to go first.

Of course, you could give them the advantage of dropping the Solid Fog which hinders them as well as it does Panzerkraken.

And I was just getting my action rolled and out of the way so that if I wasn't up when Jeff got around to responding, it wouldn't be waiting on me.

On a humorous note, I really saw 'Rats' and had pictures of them swimming in the cloud the whole time, then imagined the squeaks of terror if you dropped the cloud...

lol

listen to those squeaks.

ANYway,

I'm thinking about the bat's sonar. If the Solid Fog is thick enough to provide concealment and slow movement or break a fall, then it would logically seem to me to be opaque to echolocation.

Of course, that would make this exercise far less fun, so it effects sonar only as effectively as it does sight. :D

Quote from: jeff37923;573971I'm thinking about the bat's sonar. If the Solid Fog is thick enough to provide concealment and slow movement or break a fall, then it would logically seem to me to be opaque to echolocation.

Of course, that would make this exercise far less fun, so it effects sonar only as effectively as it does sight. :D

interesting special effect, I'll have to remember that for my own game, it didn't specifically state that it affected sounds, but that would be a pretty neat descriptor

"Suddenly it becomes silent, except for a low moaning sound, and you can't seem to make any noise either"

It would have a nice downside on verbal components for spellcasters, similar to deafness

So you were thinking you'd just start cheating for Panzer in a really obvious really stupid way that doesn't even matter so that your colors are really out in the open?

Solid Fog limits movement and provides concealment like Fog Cloud. Blindsense allows knowing where things are from far away.

Also, when Summoned monsters are summoned, they gain a full rounds worth of actions on their turn. Which means that all the ones 10ft away can move 5ft and then make an attack action.

For god sakes, it's a bunch of CR 2 monsters with a +5 attack. They only hit on a 20, save your cheating for when it actually matters.

Quote from: Kaelik;574011So you were thinking you'd just start cheating for Panzer in a really obvious really stupid way that doesn't even matter so that your colors are really out in the open?

Solid Fog limits movement and provides concealment like Fog Cloud. Blindsense ignores concealment.

Also, when Summoned monsters are summoned, they gain a full rounds worth of actions on their turn. Which means that all the ones 10ft away can move 5ft and then make an attack action.

For god sakes, it's a bunch of CR 2 monsters with a +5 attack. They only hit on a 20, save your cheating for when it actually matters.

They have +7 to hit (augmented) and I don't care about hitting panzer's character rright now. I want them to go after his ride (much easier to hit, bigger and meatier target and they happen to share the same space and is something all of them can reach without hassle) and I'm spending my turn summoning more of them.

Quote from: MGuy;574021They have +7 to hit (augmented) and I don't care about hitting panzer's character tight now. I want them to go after his ride (much easier to hit, biger and meatier target and they happen to share the same space and be somethin all of them can reach without hassle) and I'm spending my turn summoning more of them.

Isn't it a foregone conclusion the conjurer will win?

Have the fight in a 10' square room instead.

Also forgot their attack rolls (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3662133/) and Damage Rolls (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3662139/) for the ones that can move the 5 ft and attack:




1d20+7 → [15,7] = (22) 1d8+6 → [7,6] = (13)
1d20+7 → [10,7] = (17) 1d8+6 → [4,6] = (10)
1d20+7 → [20,7] = (27) <-- Crit threat --> Doesn't go through (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3662137/) Damage --> 9 (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3662138/)
1d20+7 → [9,7] = (16) 1d8+6 → [3,6] = (9)

Edit: Forgot Miss Chance. I usually try to roll over Miss Chance keeping the bottom numbers for misses.

Results: First Attack Misses (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3662142/)

Quote from: Bill;574023Isn't it a foregone conclusion the conjurer will win?

Have the fight in a 10' square room instead.

Apparently not.  Quite a few people here seem to think that the Fighter can pull special abilities out of his ass.  In the 'wizard tactics thread', Panzerkraken seemed to think that getting into this situation would be exceedingly rare if not impossible.  The Wizard would never succeed in getting close, and if he did, he'd reveal his presence by casting a spell, and a single charge action later, he'd be toast.  OR the Fighter would use ranged attacks at up to 10 incremments and kill the Wizard long before he could get into spell casting range.  

So let's see how it goes.  

I will point out that if Panzerkraken has Mounted Combat he can negate a single hit against his mount with a Ride Check (ie, his Ride Check becomes the mount's AC against one attack).  For the sake of simplicity, that should probably apply to the first HIT (not necessarily the first attack).

Quote from: MGuy;574029Edit; Forgot Miss Chance. I usually try to roll over Miss Chance keeping the bottom numbers for misses.

I mean, I know they are a joke attack, but you are really just going to concede that your Dire Bats with Blindsense suffer a concealment miss chance even though the explicit wording of Blindsense is "This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature"?

At some point, the conjurer HAS to summon some scorpions. ;)

Quote from: MGuy;574021They have +7 to hit (augmented) and I don't care about hitting panzer's character rright now. I want them to go after his ride (much easier to hit, bigger and meatier target and they happen to share the same space and is something all of them can reach without hassle)

They're INT 3, non-language-speaking dire bats in the middle of solid fog; I personally would not rule that you could direct their attacks precisely.

Quote from: Imp;574170They're INT 3, non-language-speaking dire bats in the middle of solid fog; I personally would not rule that you could direct their attacks precisely.

I would say that he could direct their attacks precisely if he could communicate with them. It looks like he cannot though, according to his character sheet.

More later when I get home from work.

There's a few ways to run it.  The spell states that they attack Mguy's enemies to the best of their ability, but he can direct them more precisely if he can speak to them.  

I don't know what armor Panzerkraken is wearing, but his mount most likely looks like the easier target (ie, it's AC is lower, and they'd know that).  

Additionally, it's quite possible that they'd attack the larger creature.  However, for simplicity, Panzerkraken is 'assumed to take up his mount's full space', ie, 10-ft.x10-ft.  As such, any direbat that could attack the mount could also attack the Fighter.  

Of course, when there are enough of them, it may cease to be relevant.

I'd give them more or less a 50-50 chance of attacking mount or rider. Int 3, solid fog, they aren't going to recognize armor until they chew on it for a few rounds. The best of their ability is not very much.

(popcorn) Part of the problem with summon monster spells in 3e is that you can choose exactly what you're summoning...

If the bats are not able to use their sonar effectively then it should not that easy for them to move in the right direction to attack either mount or warrior.

Also I can't see how the wizard can direct them to do anything given he can't speak to them or even see what is going on in there.

EDIT

Ah it's been ruled they can see. Fair enough.

Remember that even the pegasus get to attack.

Quote from: Kaelik;573626Hey Benoist, remember that time you said that Hitler was your hero and you can't wait to kill all the Jews?

U mad? :)

There, do I fit in now, I'm doing just like the mod, lying about what people said and then using 4chan terminology as if that excuses it.

There's limits to what kind of shit you can say about people even on here.  Direct and entirely unfounded accusations of things like racism, anti-semitism, or a few other equally heinous activities are not on.

The fact is that you said it to a mod, and he didn't choose to mention it to me or take any action against you, so neither will I.  But don't pull this shit again.  Next time call him a sack of shit or something if you want to... but while we're at it, be careful you don't just keep doing that, either.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;574304There's limits to what kind of shit you can say about people even on here.  Direct and entirely unfounded accusations of things like racism, anti-semitism, or a few other equally heinous activities are not on.

The fact is that you said it to a mod, and he didn't choose to mention it to me or take any action against you, so neither will I.  But don't pull this shit again.  Next time call him a sack of shit or something if you want to... but while we're at it, be careful you don't just keep doing that, either.

So to be clear, the following things are accepted and worthy of praise and reward:

1) Being a lying sack of shit and making unfounded accusations.

2) Saying mean things to people RPGPundit doesn't like.

And the following things are bannable offenses:

1) Not making unfounded accusations and specifically saying that Benoist isn't an Anti-Semite.

2) Saying mean things about people RPGPundit likes.


I'll keep in mind that when you say "free speech" you mean it exactly like every dictator means it.

Quote from: Kaelik;574329So to be clear, the following things are accepted and worthy of praise and reward:

1) Being a lying sack of shit and making unfounded accusations.

2) Saying mean things to people RPGPundit doesn't like.

And the following things are bannable offenses:

1) Not making unfounded accusations and specifically saying that Benoist isn't an Anti-Semite.

2) Saying mean things about people RPGPundit likes.


I'll keep in mind that when you say "free speech" you mean it exactly like every dictator means it.

I ask again, if you want to start shit, do it in another thread.  Pundit only brought it up here because this was where your original monkey-shit throwing post was.

It you want to make a public stand and become a ban-martyr so you can run back to the Den and have a smuggly hug party with your buddies, at least have the decency to do it in a post that they can sticky apart from our Thunderdome.

Quote from: Fiasco;574265If the bats are not able to use their sonar effectively then it should not that easy for them to move in the right direction to attack either mount or warrior.

Also I can't see how the wizard can direct them to do anything given he can't speak to them or even see what is going on in there.

EDIT

Ah it's been ruled they can see. Fair enough.

Jeff's actual ruling was that they see at the same reduction as visual.  I know it can be hard to tell sometimes with all the armchair-DM'ing going on.

Quote from: Fiasco;574265If the bats are not able to use their sonar effectively then it should not that easy for them to move in the right direction to attack either mount or warrior.

Also I can't see how the wizard can direct them to do anything given he can't speak to them or even see what is going on in there.

EDIT

Ah it's been ruled they can see. Fair enough.

Yes he's ruled. I don't get how I can't relay orders to something with superior hearing like bats but I'd wager they'd go after the bigger target anyway. It's easier (and not just by meta standards it's large, suspended in the air, and can't fly as effectively as they can). What's more he said that their sonar was hampered not negated so they can still tell the general direction of the big ass target which be enough for them to target it. In either case I'm sure something will give. If I have to I'll just summon more. For now I have to complete this set of summoning and then I'll see what the results are.

Quote from: MGuy;574427Yes he's ruled. I don't get how I can't relay orders to something with superior hearing like bats but I'd wager they'd go after the bigger target anyway. It's easier (and not just by meta standards it's large, suspended in the air, and can't fly as effectively as they can). What's more he said that their sonar was hampered not negated so they can still tell the general direction of the big ass target which be enough for them to target it. In either case I'm sure something will give. If I have to I'll just summon more. For now I have to complete this set of summoning and then I'll see what the results are.

I think that the relayed orders bit was because you don't speak bat?  Not sure if you took any outsider languages, since they're Fiendish they might understand Infernal, but they're only animal intelligence anyway.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;574429I think that the relayed orders bit was because you don't speak bat?  Not sure if you took any outsider languages, since they're Fiendish they might understand Infernal, but they're only animal intelligence anyway.

Yes I have Infernal and "Eat big thing" isn't really a complicated order.

Quote from: MGuy;574439Yes I have Infernal and "Eat big thing" isn't really a complicated order.

And so it was that the bats zoomed upwards, attacking the invisible red dragon who was minding her own business... :p

Quote from: MGuy;574439Yes I have Infernal and "Eat big thing" isn't really a complicated order.

I still like the idea that even sound slows down to 5'/rd inside the cloud :) Maybe that's why he's saying they can't receive the orders...

Point of fact, Fiendish Animals speak Common. Anything with Int 3 knows at least one language, and if the language isn't specified, it is common.

Meh doesn't matter something will happen or it won't.

Quote from: Kaelik;574453Point of fact, Fiendish Animals speak Common. Anything with Int 3 knows at least one language, and if the language isn't specified, it is common.

Quote from: SRDFiendish creatures dwell on the lower planes, the realms of evil, although they resemble beings found on the Material Plane. They are more fearsome in appearance than their earthly counterparts.

This would seem to imply that they would speak the language of the plane that they're summoned from.  Probably Infernal or Diabolic.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;574456This would seem to imply that they would speak the language of the plane that they're summoned from.  Probably Infernal or Diabolic.

That would seem to imply that language isn't specified, so they speak Common. It's a fine houserule to say they speak fiendish, but they do speak Common.

Quote from: Kaelik;574457That would seem to imply that language isn't specified, so they speak Common. It's a fine houserule to say they speak fiendish, but they do speak Common.

So you're saying that an extraplanar creature wouldn't be able to speak the dominant language on its own plane?  Doesn't that sound a bit illogical to you?

Quote from: Panzerkraken;574452I still like the idea that even sound slows down to 5'/rd inside the cloud :) Maybe that's why he's saying they can't receive the orders...

Maybe they're getting a dismal ping on their echolocation?

Quote from: Panzerkraken;574458So you're saying that an extraplanar creature wouldn't be able to speak the dominant language on its own plane?  Doesn't that sound a bit illogical to you?

Umm, you realize this exact kind of thing is the reason for the last 7000 posts, right?  Logic does not matter.  The rules state...
1. Every creature with Int 3 speaks one language.
2. If not specified, the language is common.
3. Therefore since Infernal is not specified, Infernal Bats speak Common and not Infernal.

Is it 100% Full Retard? Sure, but it's the rules (according to Kaelik, no way I'm double-checking that one).
Mguys speaks Infernal anyway, so it's immaterial, all that matters is how far away he is, and Jeff has that under control I assume.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574466Umm, you realize this exact kind of thing is the reason for the last 7000 posts, right?  Logic does not matter.  The rules state...
1. Every creature with Int 3 speaks one language.
2. If not specified, the language is common.
3. Therefore since Infernal is not specified, Infernal Bats speak Common and not Infernal.

Is it 100% Full Retard? Sure, but it's the rules (according to Kaelik, no way I'm double-checking that one).
Mguys speaks Infernal anyway, so it's immaterial, all that matters is how far away he is, and Jeff has that under control I assume.

Yup, my statement was 100% rhetorical, and I agree, Jeff is the ultimate authority on it.

Quote from: MGuy;574427Yes he's ruled. I don't get how I can't relay orders to something with superior hearing like bats but I'd wager they'd go after the bigger target anyway. It's easier (and not just by meta standards it's large, suspended in the air, and can't fly as effectively as they can). What's more he said that their sonar was hampered not negated so they can still tell the general direction of the big ass target which be enough for them to target it. In either case I'm sure something will give. If I have to I'll just summon more. For now I have to complete this set of summoning and then I'll see what the results are.

Your bats are in a Solid Fog cloud that is about 160 feet away, that is why you cannot communicate with them. Sound won't work. They speak Infernal, so you can use a spell to communicate with them if you have one.

EDIT: I should have said that sound won't work unless you get a lot closer.

Quote from: jeff37923;574492Your bats are in a Solid Fog cloud that is about 160 feet away, that is why you cannot communicate with them. Sound won't work. They speak Infernal, so you can use a spell to communicate with them if you have one.

You just invalidated the whole thing Jeff.  We've already established they cannot speak Infernal (despite being from that plane) only Common, can't you read Kaelik?  Now they have a Full Retard point to hang an appeal on.  :p

Now, the attacking bats have three possible targets due to the concealing nature of the Solid Fog - Panzerkraken, Panzerkraken's mount, and each other (possible).

Panzerkraken has not been hit. Panzerkraken's mount has been hit by one of the Fiendish Dire Bats for 10 points of damage. No Fiendish Dire Bat has struck another.

Panzerkraken has hit the nearest Fiendish Dire Bat for 11 points of damage.

Three more Fiendish Dire Bats have been summoned into the Solid Fog sphere. It is getting crowded in there.

I need a DC 5 Ride check from Panzerkraken to see if he stays onboard the pegasus while it was attacked (the check is low since he has 3 mounted combat oriented feats, and would be used to this).

Next actions? I am assuming that the Fiendish Dire Bats are continuing to attack whatever target is near.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574493You just invalidated the whole thing Jeff.  We've already established they cannot speak Infernal (despite being from that plane) only Common, can't you read Kaelik?  Now they have a Full Retard point to hang an appeal on.  :p

Kaelik can suck it, I put him on ignore awhile ago because he gibbers like an eight year old on a diet of Red Bull and Pixie Sticks.

An Infernal Dire Bat not speaking Infernal makes no sense to me.

EDIT: I have this image of these Infernal Dire Bats being all scary looking, but having voices that sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Quote from: jeff37923;574497Kaelik can suck it, I put him on ignore awhile ago because he gibbers like an eight year old on a diet of Red Bull and Pixie Sticks.

An Infernal Dire Bat not speaking Infernal makes no sense to me.

Mother-May-I-Magical-Tea-Party-Mother-Fucker y u cokblocin' yo?

(Ok, sorry, I'll let you get on with it. :D)

Quote from: jeff37923;574496Now, the attacking bats have three possible targets due to the concealing nature of the Solid Fog - Panzerkraken, Panzerkraken's mount, and each other (possible).

Panzerkraken has not been hit. Panzerkraken's mount has been hit by one of the Fiendish Dire Bats for 10 points of damage. No Fiendish Dire Bat has struck another.

Panzerkraken has hit the nearest Fiendish Dire Bat for 11 points of damage.

Three more Fiendish Dire Bats have been summoned into the Solid Fog sphere. It is getting crowded in there.

I need a DC 5 Ride check from Panzerkraken to see if he stays onboard the pegasus while it was attacked (the check is low since he has 3 mounted combat oriented feats, and would be used to this).

Next actions? I am assuming that the Fiendish Dire Bats are continuing to attack whatever target is near.

continuing to move towards the bottom of the cloud, trying to get out of there (it IS getting crowded with 8 large creatures flying in there!)  If we're passing in reach of one I'll make a full attack action against it.

Also, for the purpose of my miss chance rolls, a 20% miss chance means if I roll less than 20...

Ride Check (1d20+12=15) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3663052/)

Attack action (1d100, 1d20+15, 1d8+1d6+6=[89], [6, 15], [6, 2, 6]) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3663053/)
Second Attack (1d100, 1d20+10, 1d8+1d6+6=[83], [12, 10], [2, 5, 6]) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3663054/)

Remember that the pegasus can attack, too. it can ever do a full attack because he don't need to move, just let himself fall out of the cloud

Quote from: Just Another User;574509Remember that the pegasus can attack, too. it can ever do a full attack because he don't need to move, just let himself fall out of the cloud

He's an NPC, I'll let Jeff handle him.

If the fiendish dire bats haven't used their Smite ability, they should.  Whether the target is good or not, they're not going to be around long enough to care.  They should always use it as soon as possible (fighting to the best of their ability).  

3 Intelligence isn't bright - but it isn't mindless either.  The creature should be clever enough to guess which creature is easier to hit.  Creatures with metal armor are hard to hit.  Creatures that are big are easier to hit.  I don't know Panzerkraken's stats (or his mounts), but I assume that there's a significant difference between AC.  Unless there was something to indicate the mount was more difficult to hit than anticipated, they'd know their attacks would be most effective against it.  

As far as the possibility of the bats attacking each other - it does say they attack Mguy's enemies to the best of their ability, but that to direct them to a specific enemy or to direct them not to attack a specific enemy requires communication.  Any interpretation that has them attacking each other (his allies) is far more restrictive than any I've ever seen at the gaming table.  

Just saying.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574567If the fiendish dire bats haven't used their Smite ability, they should.  Whether the target is good or not, they're not going to be around long enough to care.  They should always use it as soon as possible (fighting to the best of their ability).  

3 Intelligence isn't bright - but it isn't mindless either.  The creature should be clever enough to guess which creature is easier to hit.  Creatures with metal armor are hard to hit.  Creatures that are big are easier to hit.  I don't know Panzerkraken's stats (or his mounts), but I assume that there's a significant difference between AC.  Unless there was something to indicate the mount was more difficult to hit than anticipated, they'd know their attacks would be most effective against it.  

As far as the possibility of the bats attacking each other - it does say they attack Mguy's enemies to the best of their ability, but that to direct them to a specific enemy or to direct them not to attack a specific enemy requires communication.  Any interpretation that has them attacking each other (his allies) is far more restrictive than any I've ever seen at the gaming table.  

Just saying.

While i do think jeff should have them fight mcguy's enemies to the best of their ability, i really don't think a three int creature is always going to go for the easier target. Probably just goes for the closest or most obvious target (or maybe the target that acted more aggressivley). Nor do I think they would have any understanding of armor.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574571While i do think jeff should have them fight mcguy's enemies to the best of their ability, i really don't think a three int creature is always going to go for the easier target. Probably just goes for the closest or most obvious target (or maybe the target that acted more aggressivley). Nor do I think they would have any understanding of armor.

Since people are putting in their two cents...

I think the mount would be the likely target with it's huge flapping wings and otherwise large size. But frankly the bats likely would consider the rider/mount to be but a single creature and thus the attack could come from any direction (i.e. through the rider).

I'd roll a D6 for each bat, 1-2 rider and 3-6 mount.

Quote from: gleichman;574572Since people are putting in their two cents...

I think the mount would be the likely target with it's huge flapping wings and otherwise large size. But frankly the bats likely would consider the rider/mount to be but a single creature and thus the attack could come from any direction (i.e. through the rider).

I'd roll a D6 for each bat, 1-2 rider and 3-6 mount.

Something like this might work well. 3 isn't mindless but it is still only a point above a dog or ape. Their attacks are going to be a lot more instinctual than thought out.

Either way, they should be attacking the foes of Mcguy (though IMO mcguy should be doing less passenger seat driving here).

Well how was MGuy supposed to know that the DM has ruled that sound doesn't exist in his campaign.

The DC to hear and understand someone yelling from 160ft away is 16 and the bats have a +12 Listen modifier. Obviously they would hear his orders if sound existed.

Quote from: jeff37923;574497Kaelik can suck it, I put him on ignore awhile ago because he gibbers like an eight year old on a diet of Red Bull and Pixie Sticks.

An Infernal Dire Bat not speaking Infernal makes no sense to me.

EDIT: I have this image of these Infernal Dire Bats being all scary looking, but having voices that sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

Hilarious.

Ladies and gentlemen of the audience, I am not nerfing the bats. I am taking into account that they have just been summoned into a Solid Fog with the command to attack what is inside. There is going to be a lot of confusion in there, that works against everything in the spell's area of effect - it isn't selective.

I have not had the bats Smite Good yet because according to the description given to me they cannot Detect Good, so they do not automatically know yo use that against them until after one of them attacks, hits, and then realises that the target "tastes like good". The bat that hit the pegasus on the first round will be able to Smite Good on the second, and be able to communicate this to the other seven bats in there.

"Tastes like Good"

I am going to have to use that in a game.

Fitting for a vampire or a succubus sampling various adventurers.

It is weird in there.

The pegasus has Detect Evil up to 60 feet radius, which is probably the best sensor in the Solid Fog, but cannot communicate with Panzerkraken about what it is sensing.

This fight inside the Solid Fog is about as close as you can get to a classic "hairy furball" of an aerial dogfight.

I'm not doing any side seat GMing. I'm just throwing in my 2 cents like everyone else (and barely that). Yes, it is true I wasn't expecting all of the rule changes and decisions that have occured so far (raised ride check, bats not being able to hear in silent fog, mount bein able to control itself in flight when it can't get its proper move speed, possibility of my summons attacking each other, etc) but I'm not griping about them at all nor am I attempting to tell jeff what to do. I agreed to have him be the arbiter and I'm not going to bitch about his decisions now. What happens happens. People can make their own opinions about his rulings but even with all of the changes made the fighter is still disadvantaged and I'm confident that I will win this little contest.

Anyways, the bats are at 8 now. I assume that all but maybe 1 get their attacks based on the description of the situation. Since I don't need to do anythin with this turn (yet) I'm going to attempt to tell them to attack the big meaty horse or whatever infernal word I can shout at them to attack the thing with the wings. I'll get closer if necessary to do this.

Here are their attacks  (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3663474/)and damage rolls (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3663483/) (smite not included) I'm not sure which ones get flanking.
1d20+7 → [8,7] = (15)
1d20+7 → [11,7] = (18)
1d20+7 → [9,7] = (16)
1d20+7 → [7,7] = (14)
1d20+7 → [5,7] = (12)
1d20+7 → [11,7] = (18)
1d20+7 → [15,7] = (22)
1d8+6 → [7,6] = (13)
1d8+6 → [1,6] = (7)
1d8+6 → [6,6] = (12)
1d8+6 → [1,6] = (7)
1d8+6 → [4,6] = (10)
1d8+6 → [4,6] = (10)
1d8+6 → [3,6] = (9)

Edit: Forgot Miss Chance (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3663488/)
1d20 → [14] = (14)
1d20 → [8] = (8)
1d20 → [16] = (16)
1d20 → [7] = (7)
1d20 → [11] = (11)
1d20 → [20] = (20)
1d20 → [2] = (2)
Last attack misses.

Quote from: MGuy;574723Yes, it is true I wasn't expecting all of the rule changes and decisions that have occured so far

OK, lets look at these:

Quote from: MGuy;574723raised ride check

Your character has no mounted combat type feats and only a single rank in Ride skill while on the back of a hippogriff trying to cast spells with somatic components.

I've overlooked the fact that an Ebony Fly has the stats of a hippogriff, but is a giant fly which you are riding.

Quote from: MGuy;574723bats not being able to hear in silent fog

Your character is 160 feet away yelling into a combat inside of a Solid Fog which is solid enough to hinder movement and falling. Sound will be dampened, get closer and they will hear you.

Quote from: MGuy;574723mount bein able to control itself in flight when it can't get its proper move speed

A pegasus does not fly like an airplane, so airspeed is not a factor for lift. The Solid Fog hinders movement and falling, all the pegasus has to do is tuck in its wings and it can still fall at 5 feet per round.

Quote from: MGuy;574723possibility of my summons attacking each other

They have appeared in a Solid Fog, coming from Hell and looking for a fight. They are going to be disoriented by the Solid Fog, but still attacking. Here in another round, they will know that a morsel in here "Tastes like Good!" and try to converge on it.

Now I have to go to work. This will continue when I get home.

Quote from: jeff37923;574746OK, lets look at these:
Your character is 160 feet away yelling into a combat inside of a Solid Fog which is solid enough to hinder movement and falling. Sound will be dampened, get closer and they will hear you.

...

They have appeared in a Solid Fog, coming from Hell and looking for a fight. They are going to be disoriented by the Solid Fog, but still attacking. Here in another round, they will know that a morsel in here "Tastes like Good!" and try to converge on it.

My two cents is that these two rulings are poorly considered. I would have ruled otherwise.

That BTW is what makes an exercise like this so difficult. Little things like difference in GM style can change everything.

Solid Fog has great acoustics. That's why it's solid enough to reduce falling to 5' a round. It's just like when my friends ashore yell at me to do something when I'm submerged in water. It's all perfectly clear, all the time. :D

Quote from: jeff37923;574746Stuff
Now I have to go to work. This will continue when I get home.

You are the GM, the ref for this exercise. As I said, what happens happens. I disagree with some of the rulings and would have made slight, not significant, changes to some of the things I did and prepared for when making the character had I known these things would be happening but what has happened has happened and there's no reason to complain about it now. I was just listing the unexpected rules changes that were made to indicate what I was not expecting.

Yeah you're not complaining, you're just making a laundry list of rulings you can blame a defeat on if by some crazy twist of fate, you lose.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: CRKrueger;574782Yeah you're not complaining, you're just making a laundry list of rulings you can blame a defeat on if by some crazy twist of fate, you lose.  :rolleyes:

That's unfair.

MGuy is bringing his set of game assumptions to the table (which unless I'm wrong here- is basically the game should be played RAW), and is agreeing to abide by the rulings of jeff37923 who is on record as not believing that the game should be played RAW.

That MGuy would even agree to do this at all is to my to my mind amazing. I never would. If he stays till the bitter end under such conditions, it will be even more amazing.

That he should list the differences between jeff37923's ruling and RAW should not be held against him, and is in fact an excellent way of seeing how the two approaches affect the game.

If he loses, I'm sure that he will blame jeff37923's non-RAW rulings to some degree. That's also to be expected. He may well be correct, and the only recourse is to run the battle again with RAW style GM.

In any case, apply some humility here. He's playing by therpgsite's rules and on its ground. That deserves some respect out of the gate. Wait until it's over before smacking for taking the results badly- for the simple reason that he may not.

Moved to actual-play forum.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574782Yeah you're not complaining, you're just making a laundry list of rulings you can blame a defeat on if by some crazy twist of fate, you lose.  :rolleyes:

If I lose I lose. If you're going to peg me for claiming things are slanted for the fighter I HAVE a laundry list of things you can choose form:

1) My goal is randomly to kill the fighter.

2)I'm fighting the fighter in the only arena the fighter is any good at.

3) I revealed I was going to be a conjurer before the battel began.

4) I am actually combating the fighter with things that fight instead of blowing him up from space or casting save or dies until he and his mount die (Cloud Kill is a conjuration spell).

5) Meeting him in an open nearly featureless plain of no value at all where his apparent game plan of shoot me from the next town over would've been at its best.

6) I specifically avoided shennanigans or methods of fighting that would have been "too" overpowered. Such as: summoning all my shit then teleporting into range with them buffed and ready to kill.

7) No cohorts, no planar binding, no use magic item shennanigans.

8) Didn't spend all of my wealth.

jeff deciding to change a bunch of rules on me is no where on my list but you are free to pick and choose from shit that IS on my laundry list to pick apart.

my 2c.

hearing someone talking is a DC 0

but to understand what he is saying they must beat the DC by 10.

Add that they must be able to hear him while in the middle of a battle, or at least in a really confused situation (+5?)

+ 16 for the distance

+2 (the DM's friend) for being in solid fog. if it solid enough to slow a horse falling it is solid enough to dampen sound.
Total.

DC 33
dire bats have listen of 12

i think it is a fair call.

I was going to mention the Listen check, but then I started weeping uncontrollably at what I had become.

Quote from: Just Another User;574815my 2c.

hearing someone talking is a DC 0

but to understand what he is saying they must beat the DC by 10.

Add that they must be able to hear him while in the middle of a battle, or at least in a really confused situation (+5?)

+ 16 for the distance

+2 (the DM's friend) for being in solid fog. if it solid enough to slow a horse falling it is solid enough to dampen sound.
Total.

DC 33
dire bats have listen of 12

i think it is a fair call.

So let's get this straight.  Totally RAW...

DC 0 to hear modified by distance = DC 16
DC to understand speech +10 = DC 26
So decent chance, but not guaranteed at all considering a Listen of 12.
That about right?

Quote from: Rum Cove;574817I was going to mention the Listen check, but then I started weeping uncontrollably at what I had become.

Don't reject it.  Embrace it.  Your ability to call up minor details about the rules is a gift, not a curse.

You can use it for good (to help fellow players remember important details, find good options, etc), or for evil (to rules-lawyer and interpret the letter of the rules to their most ridiculous conclusions and break the game).  With great power comes great responsibility.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574874So let's get this straight.  Totally RAW...

DC 0 to hear modified by distance = DC 16
DC to understand speech +10 = DC 26
So decent chance, but not guaranteed at all considering a Listen of 12.
That about right?

DC to hear someone talking 0.

DC to hear someone yelling: Not 0.

The d20 SRD has Listen DC for people talking and people whispering, but nothing specific for people yelling. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm)

It does have a DC for the sounds of a battle, although it's vague in that I'd expect some battles/attacks to be louder than others.  The table appears to be a rough estimate for individual groups to use as a reference.

While all figuring out the the various DC values is cute and all, I must ask a simple question.

Does 3.x require listen checks to hear other PCs in your group shout advice or pass information to each other?

Do you typically play it that way in a battle as in:

Sarah: "I want to tell Grond the Fighter something
DM: Grond, make a listen check please at a DC of 17 (understand speech plus battle noise plus something for range just because).

DM: Sorry Sarah, you he can't hear you. But you can again next round, now Grond what do you....


Just curious of that's what the rules require, or if there's anyone who plays it that way.

Quote from: gleichman;574911While all figuring out the the various DC values is cute and all, I must ask a simple question..

Hmm, which is it, RAW or not RAW?  One the one hand we get told that the Infernal Bats don't speak Infernal but do speak Common because RAW, on the other hand we're supposed to handwave the fact that according to RAW, they may not hear the commands in the first place?

Or is it only ok to nitpick and pixelbitch the RAW when it advantages "Team Den"?  Don't answer, that one's obvious.

I don't play 3e, but for all the empty boasts of Wizard Supremacy, and all the claims that Fighters are useless after 4th level, etc, I would have expected these fights to be over near instantaneously.

Instead, all we're getting is tedious, boring, point-whoring type behavior, like the guy that tries to win Scrabble using words from West Midlands dialect of Middle English.  It's Death by Accountant.

Can the next Thunderdome take place in a regulation american football stadium, with off the field being out of bounds?

Or an regulation whatever the correct name is soccer field?

Quote from: CRKrueger;574926Hmm, which is it, RAW or not RAW?  One the one hand we get told that the Infernal Bats don't speak Infernal but do speak Common because RAW, on the other hand we're supposed to handwave the fact that according to RAW, they may not hear the commands in the first place?

Oh don't whine. I don't care who wins this fight, I just want to know the answer (as I don't know 3.X rules).

Is it RAW to roll listen checks between PCs in a battle or not? If it is, is there anyone who plays that way?

Quote from: gleichman;574911While all figuring out the the various DC values is cute and all, I must ask a simple question.

Does 3.x require listen checks to hear other PCs in your group shout advice or pass information to each other?

Do you typically play it that way in a battle as in:

Sarah: "I want to tell Grond the Fighter something
DM: Grond, make a listen check please at a DC of 17 (understand speech plus battle noise plus something for range just because).

DM: Sorry Sarah, you he can't hear you. But you can again next round, now Grond what do you....


Just curious of that's what the rules require, or if there's anyone who plays it that way.

Being a little disingenuous aren't we?  There is a bit of a difference between shouting an instruction to a companion 10 feet away and directing bats you can't even see from 160 feet away.

As GM would I require a check for companions near each other? No. If they are 100plus feet away and in battle? Definitely.

The bats not hearing me clearly isn't a big deal. It's inconvenient at best (as this whole exercise has been). It's even supported by RAW so -shrugs-.

As for rolling listen. I house rule a take 10 on the check unless someone specifically says they are making one. Saves time and dice rolling.

Quote from: MGuy;575029The bats not hearing me clearly isn't a big deal. It's inconvenient at best (as this whole exercise has been). If it's even supported by RAW so -shrugs-.

Jesus man, what are you, like 17?

Quote from: CRKrueger;575030Jesus man, what are you, like 17?

You can bitch about anything can't you?

Quote from: MGuy;575035You can bitch about anything can't you?

You're the "Even though I nitpick every move and point, none of it means anything" guy, complete with attempts to claim victory rather then play out the scenario (you jackasses wanted to call it over after Solid Fog :rotfl:), and constant talk about how meaningless and useless the whole thing is just in case you lose, now complete with 'shrugs'.

You're a character from The O.C. from chrissakes.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575040Stuff

All you had to say was: Yes, I can.

Quote from: Rum Cove;574817I was going to mention the Listen check, but then I started weeping uncontrollably at what I had become.

One Of Us!
One Of Us!
One Of Us!
One Of Us!

Marleycat is getting bored.  Come on guys get to it already! Blood and death I like these things.:)

(Did I mention I moved to Fantasy Craft because of this minutia)?

Quote from: Marleycat;575087Marleycat is getting bored.  Come on guys get to it already! Blood and death I like these things.:)

(Did I mention I moved to Fantasy Craft because of this minutia)?

Liz Phair's nipples aren't bored, so how could you be?   :D

MGuy, only 4 of your bats are in position to engage Panzerkraken. They are also limited to a movement of 5 feet per round by the Solid Fog, remember?

Three of the Fiendish Dire Bats have attacked and missed Panzerkraken while the one that had attacked his pegasus has hit it again and used Smite Good to cause 9 points of damage. That bat has also screeched that pegasus "Tastes Like Good" and promises delicious eating.

Panzerkraken has hit the same bat for 23 points of damage. The pegasus, now engaged in battle, attacks the bat and hits as well for 7 points of damage. That bat will never bite a pegasus again as its corpse becomes dust and its spirit returns to Hell.

Attack rolls. (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664669/)
Miss chance roll. (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664671/)

I need to know your next moves, gentlemen.

Quote from: Fiasco;575023Being a little disingenuous aren't we?

No, I'm asking what the RAW says about communication between players and if anyone does or does not follow the RAW on the subject.

Good lord, why is that such a big deal. You'd think I asked you about beating your girlfriend or something.

Quote from: Fiasco;575023As GM would I require a check for companions near each other? No. If they are 100plus feet away and in battle? Definitely.

Since you say "As GM", I take it then that your ruling above is not supported by RAW and is your personal gaming style.

How often are PCs in your campaigns 100+ feet apart? What DC modifier do you apply for Yelling?

Edit: Actually don't answer here- I'll take this to another thread to avoid cross talk in this one.

Jeff,

Let us know if you mind us pointing out minutia of the rules - just trying to help with fairness, and while you may have already hit everything correctly, reminders aren't meant to be offensive.

In solid fog you're limited to 5-feet of movement, but that is not a 5-ft. step.  It counts as movement, and therefore provokes Attacks of Opportunity from anyone threatening.  

You may have already been aware and applied those attacks.  If so cool.  If you were not aware and would like more information on this, let me know and I'll point you to the relevant sections of the SRD.

Quote from: jeff37923;575097MGuy, only 4 of your bats are in position to engage Panzerkraken. They are also limited to a movement of 5 feet per round by the Solid Fog, remember?

Three of the Fiendish Dire Bats have attacked and missed Panzerkraken while the one that had attacked his pegasus has hit it again and used Smite Good to cause 9 points of damage. That bat has also screeched that pegasus "Tastes Like Good" and promises delicious eating.

Panzerkraken has hit the same bat for 23 points of damage. The pegasus, now engaged in battle, attacks the bat and hits as well for 7 points of damage. That bat will never bite a pegasus again as its corpse becomes dust and its spirit returns to Hell.

Attack rolls. (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664669/)
Miss chance roll. (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664671/)

I need to know your next moves, gentlemen.

Still continuing to move.  If there's another bat within reach I'll attack it.

First Attack (1d100, 1d20+15, 1d8+1d6+6=[7], [18, 15], [3, 2, 6]) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664832/)
Second Attack (1d100, 1d20+10, 1d8+1d6+6=[70], [19, 10], [1, 2, 6]) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664834/)
Threatened Critical (1d20+15, 1d8+6=[20, 15], [3, 6]) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664838/)

Stupid miss chance.  I threatened a crit with both attacks, but one just flat misses.  This was why I got rid of miss chance for my games and just gave them AC bonuses instead.

Quote from: jeff37923;575097MGuy, only 4 of your bats are in position to engage Panzerkraken.

I just summoned three more at the beginning of my last turn at the bottom of the cloud (inside of it). He's been in the cloud for 3 turns now I believe going straight down, The ones I just summoned should've been able to move up and attack his pegasus on my last turn. They should also be in the way of his downward movement by now.

Also yes I believe he's right. Upon rereading Solid Fog he gets no 5ft steps so there should have been quite a few Attacks of Opportunity by now, at least 2 by the bat he just killed at the very least (since he spend both of his turns since engaging them moving). That is about 8 Opportunity Attacks (I believe) from the four that was engaging him the last two rounds.

In either case I will have them continue to attack and as I did last round I will continue to close in until I'm circling around the lower edge of the fog. Still giving them orders to kill the pegasus in whatever infernal words I can use.

Anyway here's the 8 missing Attack of Opportunity (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664988/) / Damage (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664993/) Rolls:

1d20+7 → [5,7] = (12)-->1d8+6 → [8,6] = (14)
1d20+7 → [3,7] = (10) -->1d8+6 → [1,6] = (7)
1d20+7 → [15,7] = (22) -->Miss 1d8+6 → [7,6] = (13)
1d20+7 → [13,7] = (20)-->1d8+6 → [7,6] = (13)
1d20+7 → [15,7] = (22)-->1d8+6 → [1,6] = (7)
1d20+7 → [14,7] = (21)-->1d8+6 → [4,6] = (10)
1d20+7 → [9,7] = (16)-->1d8+6 → [3,6] = (9)
1d20+7 → [14,7] = (21) -->Miss 1d8+6 → [8,6] = (14)
Miss Chance (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3664991/)
1d20 → [20] = (20)
1d20 → [10] = (10)
1d20 → [15] = (15)
1d20 → [3] = (3)
1d20 → [15] = (15)
1d20 → [8] = (8)
1d20 → [7] = (7)
1d20 → [4] = (4)

There shouldn't be any for this turn because he shouldn't be able to move downward any farther with the dire bats I summoned below him. Also you already have the attack rolls of these bats from last turn so I don't have to reroll the attacks they already should have had. So here are the 7 rolls for this turn (since his passage down should be blocked, the one that couldn't reach him before should've caught up) without any potential flanking bonuses.

Attack (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3665003/)/ Damage (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3665005/)
1d20+7 → [14,7] = (21)--> 1d8+6 → [3,6] = (9)
1d20+7 → [1,7] = (8) -->Miss / Fumble1d8+6 → [7,6] = (13)
1d20+7 → [4,7] = (11)-->1d8+6 → [2,6] = (8)
1d20+7 → [14,7] = (21)-->1d8+6 → [7,6] = (13)
1d20+7 → [19,7] = (26)-->Miss 1d8+6 → [3,6] = (9)
1d20+7 → [8,7] = (15)--> 1d8+6 → [4,6] = (10)
1d20+7 → [15,7] = (22) --> Miss 1d8+6 → [8,6] = (14)

Miss Chance (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3665007/)
1d20 → [14] = (14)
1d20 → [2] = (2)
1d20 → [7] = (7)
1d20 → [11] = (11)
1d20 → [1] = (1)
1d20 → [18] = (18)
1d20 → [2] = (2)

Out of curiosity - why was the Solid Fog said to be a problem for the Fighter's mount to remain flying and not for the flying bats?

Quote from: Rum Cove;575291Out of curiosity - why was the Solid Fog said to be a problem for the Fighter's mount to remain flying and not for the flying bats?

Bats have good flying while the pegasus and my hippogriff have average. So the bats don't have a minimum movement they need to perform to stay up.

I'm done.

My life is more important to me.

Quote from: jeff37923;575306I'm done.

My life is more important to me.

Huh...? I must've missed something here. Shame, it was getting good.

So... the GM just walked away from Thunderdome?

Pity no one took me up on my bet that this one would fall apart too. Dang. :(

Quote from: gleichman;575315Pity no one took me up on my bet that this one would fall apart too. Dang. :(

Does that mean you won?

Quote from: gleichman;575315So... the GM just walked away from Thunderdome?

Pity no one took me up on my bet that this one would fall apart too. Dang. :(

At least this one was developing some trajectory by the end though.

In this case, the rules are clear, no 5-ft step allowed in Solid Fog, so every 5ft movement does provoke an AoO when leaving a threatened square.

BTW, has everyone been applying the -2 hit and damage rolls? :D

Crap, this one too, huh?  Well, my guess would be Jeff got tired of Mguy DMing himself.  Pointing out the rules of AoO are one thing, rolling for all of them before the call was made, was just dickform.

Still, it's clear at this point, unless the Fighter has some other means of flying, this one is done.  The never-ending squadron of bats are going to Smite the Pegasus into oblivion.

No surprise, however.  A one-on-one in 3.5 with a Wizard who both picks all the spells in his spellbook and the ones he has memorized that day knowing he is going to do a one-on-one?  This thing was over before it began.

BTW, was Mguy making concentration rolls for every summoning spell cast on Hippoback?

Quote from: CRKrueger;575326BTW, was Mguy making concentration rolls for every summoning spell cast on Hippoback?

Not without complaints.

Quote from: Rum Cove;575327Not without complaints.

Complaints?

Quote from: SRDVigorous Motion
If you are riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, below-decks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

Clear as crystal...oh yeah forgot, RAW when favorable only. :rotfl:

Quote from: Rum Cove;575327Not without complaints.

Umm I never questioned the concentration check. Only thing I've questioned is Ride Check sir.

Quote from: gleichman;575315So... the GM just walked away from Thunderdome?

Pity no one took me up on my bet that this one would fall apart too. Dang. :(

3 Dimensional air battles are HARD especially with me summoning like 8 bats. Still I kept notes on where, when, and in what formation I summoned the bats. The AoO thing I even missed. I read he could only move 5ft in solid fog but I glossed over the part where he couldn't make a 5ft step (error on my end as well as everyone else's except DeadDM). I don't see how going back, making the missed AoO rolls was asshattery especially when the rules clearly allow them. Nor do I find it "wrong" to remind the GM where the fuck I summoned my god damned summons when he's making claims that they can't get their attack in. Minor random rules changes with no forwarning I'll let slide. Purposefully gimping my summons (not once but twice) so that they don't get their regular attacks are a no go.

This little Thunderdome has taught me something. People who haven't played in truly high level scenarios (such as 3 dimensional aerial combat) shouldn't GM them.

Quote from: MGuy;575338Umm I never questioned the concentration check. Only thing I've questioned is Ride Check sir.

I assume Jeff ruled you were using Guide With Knees to cast while riding.

Anyway, congrats on the win.

However, no matter whether I think it's over, Panzerkraken didn't walk away, so if someone wants to step up as DM and keep going, go for it.

I would, but it would be reading the SRD every move, would take forever.

Quote from: MGuy;575339This little Thunderdome has taught me something. People who haven't played in truly high level scenarios (such as 3 dimensional aerial combat) shouldn't GM them.

And shitheads who have flying mounts but only allocate 1 skill rank to Ride, who only want the effects of Solid Fog to come into play when it helps them after they have cast it, keeps gimping their own summoned monsters by dumping them inside the same Solid Fog, and fucking whine at everygoddamn thing that doesn't go their way shouldn't play the game.

You know you could have won this in one round if your pokemage had bothered to memorize Fireball? You had surprise, but didn't have the spell because you got it in your head that your spell selection of multiple Monster Summonings was a slam dunk. It is never a slam dunk, cupcake. It always depends on how you use what you have.

I got tired of your whiney bullshit. If this had been at an actual game table, I would have thrown you out sooner.

You know I just have 3 questions about Panzer's character. If he can answer them I'll just walk away from the rest of this mess:

1) Do you have any alternate mode of flight or a feather fall contingency for when/if your mount would've died?

2) If yes (flight) how fast was it? If yes (feather fall) did you have some way of increasing your move speed once grounded? If no do you think you could've survived the drop?

3) Have you in, at any capacity realized how many more options I have than your fighter? That I have more options as this wizard in the realm of stealth, navigation, recon, offense, defense, logistics, even retreating than your fighter even when I don't have as full a spell selection as a regular in game caster would and all by myself.

My point was proven at Solid Fog. As I said, the rest is just clean up. An honest answer to these questions would be all I need to satisfy me and he can have the victory.

Quote from: jeff37923;575348And shitheads who have flying mounts but only allocate 1 skill rank to Ride, who only want the effects of Solid Fog to come into play when it helps them after they have cast it, keeps gimping their own summoned monsters by dumping them inside the same Solid Fog, and fucking whine at everygoddamn thing that doesn't go their way shouldn't play the game.

You know you could have won this in one round if your pokemage had bothered to memorize Fireball? You had surprise, but didn't have the spell because you got it in your head that your spell selection of multiple Monster Summonings was a slam dunk. It is never a slam dunk, cupcake. It always depends on how you use what you have.

I got tired of your whiney bullshit. If this had been at an actual game table, I would have thrown you out sooner.

1 rank in Ride because with my +4 bonus total I can get all the simple checks I need for regular riding unless the GM ups the DC on me without warning.

No fireball because I said I'd be a conjurer and I like summoning things. Since I like summoning stuff I did that. I gimped my bats in the solid fog so he'd have NO CHANCE in hell of ever actually getting to me or threatening my character ever. Eventually the bats would eat him alive and I'm not incredibly in a hurry so why not play it safe?

Lastly I wouldn't want to play under your table because your limited grasp of the rules and my actions in general, and the fact that you are willing to change the rules on the fly without fore warning/forget where I summoned my shit/claim that I didn't make a roll when I fucking did would prevent me from doing so.

I'm sorry I brought up the Attacks of Opportunity for movement.  I had mostly assumed they were being done where I couldn't see, but figured I'd mention it mostly for the benefit of the members of the peanut gallery unfamiliar with 3.5 rules.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575326No surprise, however.  A one-on-one in 3.5 with a Wizard who both picks all the spells in his spellbook and the ones he has memorized that day knowing he is going to do a one-on-one?  This thing was over before it began.

That is actually unfair. Mguy used silent image, solid fog and summon monsters IV and V, none of those spells are tailored for one-on-one.

Mguy, I suppose this don't really count as a spoiler anymore but could you tell me how did you suddenly appear  in message #167

Quote from: jeff37923;573194Panzerkraken, the hawk has dissappeared and been replaced by what appears to be a wizard on the back of a hippogriff who is casting a spell within 200 feet of you.

it sound like invisibility but that "the hawk has disappeared and been replaced" sound a little weird. (and why turn it off if it was invisibility?)

Quote from: Just Another User;575358That is actually unfair. Mguy used silent image, solid fog and summon monsters IV and V, none of those spells are tailored for one-on-one.

Mguy, I suppose this don't really count as a spoiler anymore but could you tell me how you how did you suddenly appear  in message #167



it sound like invisibility but that "the hawk has disappeared and been replaced" sound a little weird. (and why turn it off if it was invisibility?)

I just stopped concentrating on Silent Image. Concentrating is a standard action and when you stop concentrating your spell immediately ends.

Good fucking god...

I can't believe people actually play like this.

What a boring, soulless bog of aspie bullshit.

All three of you need to find a new hobby.

Would have liked to see this one play out to finish, but I do think it was looking like things were going to go McGuy's way (barring any unusual rolls). For the fighter to win this scenario he really had to land the first strike (preferably up close) in my opinion.

That said the back seat GMing was getting tiresome. I realize it might not come accross that way to some of the newer folks here,but that kind of aggressive rules lawyering is something would get you booted from most tables here I believe. I do understand mcguy's desire to question any ruling that looks a bit off (especially in a scenario that is supposed to be RAW). But it was more in the delivery than anything else. See the difference between DeadDM's rules query to Jeff and McGuy's.

Quote from: MGuy;575363I just stopped concentrating on Silent Image. Concentrating is a standard action and when you stop concentrating your spell immediately ends.

a silent image of what?

I actually find myself disgusted reading this thread.

Quote from: Benoist;575379I actually find myself disgusted reading this thread.

Shut'er down!

Quote from: Just Another User;575371a silent image of what?

A hawk, just in case he saw my shadow on the ground I wanted there to be a plausible thing in the air that could've been casting that shadow. Why not a hawk since I can make my Hawk make actual hawk noises?

Quote from: Just Another User;575371a silent image of what?

Quote from: jeff37923;573194Panzerkraken, the hawk has dissappeared and been replaced by what appears to be a wizard on the back of a hippogriff who is casting a spell within 200 feet of you.

Quote from: MGuy;575363I just stopped concentrating on Silent Image. Concentrating is a standard action and when you stop concentrating your spell immediately ends.

Hmm, if Silent Image, was supposed to turn a Hippogriff and Rider into a Hawk, that is a clear violation of what the spell can do.

Silent Image is a Figment Illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm)

As described here at WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a)...

Quote from: WotCFigment: These spells create false sensations of creatures, objects, or forces. A figment always must create the impression of something new. It cannot make something seem to be something else. For example, you can use a figment to create an illusory cover for an open pit (more about this in Part Four). You cannot, however, use it to conceal a trap door since that would be making something seem like something else.

Quote from: WotCBeware of attempts to use figments as glamers. For example, you can use a figment to create an apple tree, but you can't use a figment to make your buddy look like an apple tree. You'd need a glamer spell to perform the latter trick.

What was the Silent Image supposed to be doing, because making a Hippogriff and Rider look like a hawk is simply not possible RAW.

Can't shut this one down until PanzerKraken finds out his GM is gone.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;575370Would have liked to see this one play out to finish, but I do think it was looking like things were going to go McGuy's way (barring any unusual rolls). For the fighter to win this scenario he really had to land the first strike (preferably up close) in my opinion.

That said the back seat GMing was getting tiresome. I realize it might not come accross that way to some of the newer folks here,but that kind of aggressive rules lawyering is something would get you booted from most tables here I believe. I do understand mcguy's desire to question any ruling that looks a bit off (especially in a scenario that is supposed to be RAW). But it was more in the delivery than anything else. See the difference between DeadDM's rules query to Jeff and McGuy's.

Were I at a normal table of play and not in some kind of arena style challenge things would ost definitely be different. I expect, if I'm going to participate in this kind of thing, that things be done by the book. That rules changes be made up front before play, that the rules be known by the GM, and that my actions actually occur.

I don't expect sudden rules changes, lying about whether I made a roll or not, nor not knowing how move + attacking works to occur when someone decides to ref. I understand that 3 dimensional aerial battles are hard and most people here don't expect the wizard to you know... use tactics along with their abilities but something as simple as my bats getting their AoOs or being summoned over/under him in range to move and attack things that are actual targets is not hard to adjuticate.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575392Stuff.

Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

Quote from: MGuy;575391A hawk, just in case he saw my shadow on the ground I wanted there to be a plausible thing in the air that could've been casting that shadow. Why not a hawk since I can make my Hawk make actual hawk noises?

well, for once, because silent image can't do that.

first silent image is not mobile

QuoteSilent Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level:    Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect:    Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration:    Concentration
Saving Throw:    Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance:    No

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Focus

A bit of fleece.

you can move the image inside those four + 1/level 10 feet cubes but you must choose that area when you cast the spell and if you move it don't follow. note, I'm not sure if this is relevant, from Jeff's description it sounded like the "hawk" was following Panzerkraken, but if you were actually just floating in mid-air waiting for him to reach you then ignore this part.

Second, and more important, Silent Image is a figment and figment "cannot make something seem to be something else" (invisibility is a glamour for a reason) you can't use the silent image of a cat to hide a horse, you can't make the image of a empty room to hide the fact that you are in that room, you can create the image of a wardrobe, or a cloud in your case and cover inside (note that you would be blind, because unless specified you can't see through your illusions) but you can't use Silent Image to look like an hawk (unless is a really, really big and almost stationary hawk).

Correct me if I'm wrong, please and that is for everybody.

edit: ninja'd, but no surprise.

Quote from: MGuy;575401Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

I'd have to rule against this if I was GM as it seems to little more than an end run around the limit of a Figment compared to an glamers. Thus it's using RAW in bad faith to begin with.

Further it's also a nearly a direct copy of the example when it's stated that a figment can't be used to conceal a trap door. MGuy's version could indeed do so- by covering it with a rug.

Quote from: MGuy;575401Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

Obviously someone is trying to dodge the issue using pure rhetoric.

Quote from: gleichman;575404I'd have to rule against this if I was GM as it seems to little more than an end round around the limit of a Figment compared to an glamers. Thus it's using RAW in bad faith to begin with.

Further it's also a nearly a direct copy of the example when it's stated that a figment can't be used to conceal a trap door. MGuy's version could indeed do so- by covering it with a rug.

If you take it to mean "It can't ever cover anything" then you literally can't put it up anywhere at all ever. Think about it, where could you put an illussion that didn't somehow block something from sight?

Quote from: Benoist;575405Obviously someone is trying to dodge the issue using pure rhetoric.

And Benoist is a mind reader.

It's more likely that MGuy understanding of the rule is incorrect. People don't always have bad intentions when they say incorrect things. Often they are simply wrong.

Quote from: MGuy;575401Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

beside everything else that could and almost certainly will be said, but, how did you know that Panzerkraken was here to cast solid fog at him? as you said the screen is not see-through. (and I doubt you can make a listen check at -16

Quote from: gleichman;575407And Benoist is a mind reader.

Aren't you supposed to have left the site like ... forever and ever? Is that an echo I'm hearing from afar?

Quote from: Just Another User;575402well, for once, because silent image can't do that.

first silent image is not mobile



you can move the image inside those four + 1/level 10 feet cubes but you must choose that area when you cast the spell and if you move it don't follow. note, I'm not sure if this is relevant, form Jeff's description it sounded like the "hawk" was following Panzerkraken, but if you were actually just floating in mid-air waiting for him to reach you then ignore this part.

Second, and more important, Silent Image is a figment and figment "cannot make something seem to be something else" (invisibility is a glamour for a reason) you can't use the silent image of a cat to hide a horse, you can't make the image of a empty room to hide the fact that you are in that room, you can create the image of a wardrobe, or a cloud in your case and cover inside (note that you would be blind, because unless specified you can't see through your illusions) but you can't use Silent Image to look like an hawk (unless is a really, really big and almost stationary hawk).

Correct me if I'm wrong, please and that is for everybody.

edit: ninja'd, but no surprise.

The range of the spell is Lon range in my case its 800ft (400+40ft/level) which is within the areas I was moving. The size of the image can't be bigger than the dimensions you bolded. And I already said this but if you assume that you can't hide anything behind an image then you literally can't make an image of anything anywhere. My image is the hawk + the sky. Not just the hawk to cover everything.
Also, if you know the image isn't real it becomes transparent so you can see through it.

Quote from: MGuy;575406If you take it to mean "It can't ever cover anything" then you literally can't put it up anywhere at all ever. Think about it, where could you put an illussion that didn't somehow block something from sight?

It's magic, and as such it operates as the rules controlling the said magic says it does. Those rules may or may not be rational, just as magic may or may not be rational.

In this case, to me- it's clear that a figment spell fails when ever it would interfere with an observer seeing something he would consider important. Like the warrior hiding behind a Figment Apple Tree, or a trap door under the rug. In such cases, for the viewer- the magic just fails because it's not powerful enough.

Quote from: Benoist;575410Aren't you supposed to have left the site like ... forever and ever? Is that an echo I'm hearing from afar?

I never claimed to leave forever and ever. I just left.

And I'll leave again when I want to.

Quote from: gleichman;575413And I'll leave again when I want to.

Just let me know if I can help to make this happen. I'll be happy to.

I'd be leery about 'hawk+sky' but as far as hiding behind the illusion, I don't have a problem with that.

If you are standing in an empty room and you create an illusion of the wardrobe, it would have to block 'line of sight' to the wall.  If the caster then steps behind the wardrobe, it would block line of sight to him as well.   At least, until someone recognizes it as an illusion.

Quote from: gleichman;575412It's magic, and as such it operates as the rules controlling the said magic says it does. Those rules may or may not be rational.

In this case, to me- it's clear that a figment spell fails when ever it would interfere with an observer seeing something he would consider important. Like the warrior hiding behind a Figment Apple Tree, or a trap door under the rug. In such cases, for the viewer- the magic just fails because it's not powerful enough.

That is one interpretation. But who's to say that a trap door is important to someone who doesn't know  it exists? What's more is that it has to be able to be placed somewhere and no matter where you place an image something is going to be behind it/under it/etc. I interpret it as meaning I can't hide my hippogriff by making it look like a hawk, meaning I can't jsut warp what my mount and I look like. Instead I created a big ass screen that had a hawk and the sky behind it.

Quote from: MGuy;575401Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

So a big blue tarp with a moving painting of a hawk on it...how is that going to cast a shadow of a hawk as you intended?  That's going to cast the shadow of a tarp.

Quote from: jeff37923;571740There is a high flying hawk above you that you see.

Quote from: jeff37923;572986The hawk has banked is following you in your flight.  Panzerkraken, it is your move.

This isn't the "DaVinci quality painting of an empty hallway to cover a door" crap, this is a non-transparent blue sheet with a hawk on it.

Whether or not you can even move the sheet and move the hawk on the sheet as the same illusion is debatable in itself.

Not to mention any chances for PanzerKraken to see the sun blotted out by a blue sheet instead of a hawk.  Since you were above him.  :D

I have lots of experience with Illusions, back when you actually had to be good with them, because they were in their own class.  Thinking a low-level illusion can do more then it can, is classic n00bsauce.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575418So a big blue tarp with a moving painting of a hawk on it...how is that going to cast a shadow of a hawk as you intended?  That's going to cast the shadow of a tarp.





This isn't the "DaVinci quality painting of an empty hallway to cover a door" crap, this is a non-transparent blue sheet with a hawk on it.

Whether or not you can even move the sheet and move the hawk on the sheet as the same illusion is debatable in itself.

Not to mention any chances for PanzerKraken to see the sun blotted out by a blue sheet instead of a hawk.  Since you were above him.  :D

I have lots of experience with Illusions, back when you actually had to be good with them, because they were in their own class.  Thinking a low-level illusion can do more then it can, is classic n00bsauce.

That wasn't my call. If you're going to bug out about how jeff made the call I'm sure he has a complaint box somewhere. I also am sure that I stuffed it full.

Anyways work time.

Quote from: MGuy;575411The range of the spell is Lon range in my case its 800ft (400+40ft/level) which is within the areas I was moving. The size of the image can't be bigger than the dimensions you bolded. And I already said this but if you assume that you can't hide anything behind an image then you literally can't make an image of anything anywhere. My image is the hawk + the sky. Not just the hawk to cover everything.

"You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect."

see the part of the spell description where it says "effect"

also compare with the description of major image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorImage.htm)

QuoteAlso, if you know the image isn't real it becomes transparent so you can see through it.

yes, that is true.

Quote from: Benoist;575414Just let me know if I can help to make this happen. I'll be happy to.

Can't handle people disagreeing with you huh? Would rather they go away and leave your excesses unchallenged.

Must be rough.

I have a suggestion that might help, you could post to threads with a non-admin account so that I could put you in my ignore list. It would assist you greatly in this matter.

Quote from: MGuy;575419That wasn't my call.

Fair enough.  But since you're not contesting the assertions that it was an incorrect one, I wonder how that would have changed your attack plan?

Quote from: gleichman;575422Can't handle people disagreeing with you huh? Would rather they go away and leave your excesses unchallenged.

Must be rough.

Not really. I just wish I could help you.

Quote from: gleichman;575422I have a suggestion that might help, you could post to threads with a non-admin account so that I could put you in my ignore list. It would assist you greatly in this matter.

Hm. Can't handle people disagreeing with you?
How many do you have on your ignore list now?

Quote from: MGuy;575417That is one interpretation. But who's to say that a trap door is important to someone who doesn't know  it exists?

You're trying to make magic rational again. By the RAW in this case, it's not. And as someone playing by RAW in this case, you'd just have to suck it up.

Quote from: Benoist;575424Not really. I just wish I could help you.

That was not the implication of what you wrote- and you know it.

Quote from: Benoist;575424Hm. Can't handle people disagreeing with you?
How many do you have on your ignore list now?

I read everyone I have on my ignore list. It merely serves as a reminder to me that the person isn't worth replying to.

Quote from: gleichman;575426That was not the implication of what you wrote- and you know it.

You're a mind reader too? Awesome! (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=575407#post575407)

Quote from: gleichman;575426I read everyone I have on my ignore list. It merely serves as a reminder to me that the person isn't worth replying to.

OK. Good to know for later reference. If it's any consolation, I'll have you know that, just as you cannot put me on your ignore list, I actually don't use the ignore feature of the site myself. That'd run contrary to my role as moderator on the site. So if you have to suffer my own posts (I'm sorry about that), rest assured that I do have to suffer yours as well. Namaste.

Quote from: Benoist;575429You're a mind reader too? Awesome! (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=575407#post575407) .

Dude, it doesn't take a mindreader to understand that when

Person A Says: I'll leave when I want to
Person B replys: Let me know I can make that happen

Is being an ass. That's like a core english idiom that nearly everyone knows.

Quote from: Benoist;575429OK. Good to know for later reference. If it's any consolation, I'll have you know that, just as you cannot put me on your ignore list, I actually don't use the ignore feature of the site myself. That'd run contrary to my role as moderator on the site. So if you have to suffer my own posts (I'm sorry about that), rest assured that I do have to suffer yours as well. Namaste.

Hmm, shouldn't that be "I don't have to suffer yours as well".

In truth, you could put me on ignore and just respond to reports of misbehavior. It's your choice to handle it the way you're doing.

Quote from: gleichman;575436Dude, it doesn't take a mindreader to understand that when

Person A Says: I'll leave when I want to
Person B replys: Let me know I can make that happen

Is being an ass. That's like a core english idiom that nearly everyone knows.

You can kill people with your brain too, right?

Quote from: gleichman;575436Hmm, shouldn't that be "I don't have to suffer yours as well".

In truth, you could put me on ignore and just respond to reports of misbehavior. It's your choice to handle it the way you're doing.

Way to misread a post! It takes a special kind of mind reader to develop such skill.

Quote from: Benoist;575440Way to misread a post!

Yes, I did acutally misread that.

But the point still stands. You don't have to read my posts. You can just respond to reports. The choice is still in your hands, one that I don't have.

Quote from: gleichman;575443But the point still stands. You don't have to read my posts. You can just respond to reports. The choice is still in your hands, one that I don't have.

You'll have to live with the fact that I made a choice for myself, and it's not what you want. Just like I have to deal with the fact you don't want my help to decide whether you'll keep hanging around here and go on your private little crusade against the RPG Site, or not.

Quote from: Benoist;575446You'll have to live with the fact that I made a choice for myself, and it's not what you want.

Frankly I don't care if you read my posts or not. As I said, that's your choice.

But what this what this comes down to is that you are willing to using your power as a moderator (rather than using a different account for non-moderator posting) to prevent people from putting you on their ignore list.

I find that a interesting insight into your personality.

I love you too, Brian.

Benoist and Gleichman, why don't you two start your very own thread and shit that one up instead?

Ben, as a mod you really should rise above this crap no matter the level of the douche trying to push your buttons.

Well, if that's that, then that's that.  No, i don't care to start another 40 page process to continue this.  It's been more than enough already.

My thoughts:

1) The cloud should've been a 20' diameter sphere, with me at the center I would've been out of it in 2 rounds, at which point it would've been chase on and nothing out there was as fast as my pegasus.

2) Even if the diameter of the cloud was large enough to hold all those bats, they can only get 6 around the pegasus, they're large creatures without reach.

My character sheet is attached if you like.

Also MGuy was meta gaming by just sending bats below you which his character had no way of knowing. Having the fighter climb UP or Forward would have been legitimate responses.

Quote from: Fiasco;575545Also MGuy was meta gaming by just sending bats below you which his character had no way of knowing. Having the fighter climb UP or Forward would have been legitimate responses.

He was working with what he felt the logical response would be from his character's point of view.. that the pegasus loses the ability to maintain flight and starts dropping out of the bottom.  

My plan was that I should have come out of the bottom of the cloud and gone immediately into a double move dive to clear distance, then pulled up and circled to fight the bats.  And the wizard, when I got a chance, but mostly it would've been getting out of the bats to start.

I haven't followed all of the thread but it sounds like you guys quit?

Mguy was relying on the fact that due to the type of Flyer the Pegasus was, it could not keep itself aloft due to insufficient forward momentum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm) due to being stuck in the Solid Fog.

Quote from: Marleycat;575554I haven't followed all of the thread but it sounds like you guys quit?

Jeff gave up on it, he got frustrated with answering to half a dozen people who weren't playing about DM calls.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;575558Jeff gave up on it, he got frustrated with answering to half a dozen people who weren't playing about DM calls.

Well that's too bad but I don't blame him if that's the situation.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;575558Jeff gave up on it, he got frustrated with answering to half a dozen people who weren't playing about DM calls.

He should have just not answered them. I wouldn't have.

Gold Medal: DeadDMwalking (for staying the course)
Silver Medal: Panzerkraken (good sportsmanship)
Bronze Medal: Kaelik & Mguy can fight over it

Quote from: Planet Algol;575598Gold Medal: DeadDMwalking (for staying the course)
Silver Medal: Panzerkraken (good sportsmanship)
Bronze Medal: Kaelik & Mguy can fight over it

Hmmph.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mPR-XGGAhSM/UCT1o3_HLwI/AAAAAAAAEKg/wpZ2xDiWTuY/s1600/Unimpressed-girl-McKayla-Maroney-meme-1.jpg)

Okay than, Kaelik and Mguy can have a PM argument over who gets silver and who gets gold...

Quote from: Planet Algol;575635Okay than, Kaelik and Mguy can have a PM argument over who gets silver and who gets gold...

What kind of bonuses do they give?

Quote from: Rum Cove;575636What kind of bonuses do they give?

+10 Bling (Equipment bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff) for Gold (Will save vs DC 10+ Bling Rating to avoid addiction.. failure and you must continue to collect Bling at a rate of +1 per week or go into Bling Withdrawl, but each week you have to save vs Bling (using Fort after addiction) or you'll OG)

Protection from Lycanthropes for Silver

Quote from: Just Another User;575421"You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect."

see the part of the spell description where it says "effect"

also compare with the description of major image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorImage.htm)


yes, that is true.

I think you are right here actually. I may have goofed on how far I can move the image but ahh well.

Also, I only "give up" if my questions are answered. If they are not going to be then I do not declare defeat. Though I don't think it matters much at this point.

And yes I was expecting solid fog to make him drop. Since it did not the bats were going to take care of things (always another way). I could always solid fog him again if things got hairy. He wasn't that much faster than my hippogriff that I couldn't keep with the cloud tactics (had two scrolls of it for just such a sticky situation). Also he's wrong. On the ground a medium creature can be attacked by up to 8 creatures. So too for a large creature vs large creatures (even without reach that's just if they are adjacent). Remember diagnolly the first square is 5ft. In the air that number increases by 18 because of 3 available dimensions to attack from. I can have up to 26 large creatures with no reach attacking a single large creature in the ait by forming a cube around that creature.

I don't know about the diameter thing I probably would've ruled that it expanded in the air myself but there ya go.

Wow, hassling a GM to the point he quits. That's a new way to win, I see. It even tops a bone devil waiting for its opponents to die of old age. This has been quite enlightening...

Quote from: Opaopajr;575921Wow, hassling a GM to the point he quits. That's a new way to win, I see. It even tops a bone devil waiting for its opponents to die of old age. This has been quite enlightening...

I assume by "enlightening" you meant "disappointing" if so, I agree.