Quote from: Benoist;575379I actually find myself disgusted reading this thread.

Shut'er down!

Quote from: Just Another User;575371a silent image of what?

A hawk, just in case he saw my shadow on the ground I wanted there to be a plausible thing in the air that could've been casting that shadow. Why not a hawk since I can make my Hawk make actual hawk noises?

Quote from: Just Another User;575371a silent image of what?

Quote from: jeff37923;573194Panzerkraken, the hawk has dissappeared and been replaced by what appears to be a wizard on the back of a hippogriff who is casting a spell within 200 feet of you.

Quote from: MGuy;575363I just stopped concentrating on Silent Image. Concentrating is a standard action and when you stop concentrating your spell immediately ends.

Hmm, if Silent Image, was supposed to turn a Hippogriff and Rider into a Hawk, that is a clear violation of what the spell can do.

Silent Image is a Figment Illusion

As described here at WotC...

Quote from: WotCFigment: These spells create false sensations of creatures, objects, or forces. A figment always must create the impression of something new. It cannot make something seem to be something else. For example, you can use a figment to create an illusory cover for an open pit (more about this in Part Four). You cannot, however, use it to conceal a trap door since that would be making something seem like something else.

Quote from: WotCBeware of attempts to use figments as glamers. For example, you can use a figment to create an apple tree, but you can't use a figment to make your buddy look like an apple tree. You'd need a glamer spell to perform the latter trick.

What was the Silent Image supposed to be doing, because making a Hippogriff and Rider look like a hawk is simply not possible RAW.

Can't shut this one down until PanzerKraken finds out his GM is gone.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;575370Would have liked to see this one play out to finish, but I do think it was looking like things were going to go McGuy's way (barring any unusual rolls). For the fighter to win this scenario he really had to land the first strike (preferably up close) in my opinion.

That said the back seat GMing was getting tiresome. I realize it might not come accross that way to some of the newer folks here,but that kind of aggressive rules lawyering is something would get you booted from most tables here I believe. I do understand mcguy's desire to question any ruling that looks a bit off (especially in a scenario that is supposed to be RAW). But it was more in the delivery than anything else. See the difference between DeadDM's rules query to Jeff and McGuy's.

Were I at a normal table of play and not in some kind of arena style challenge things would ost definitely be different. I expect, if I'm going to participate in this kind of thing, that things be done by the book. That rules changes be made up front before play, that the rules be known by the GM, and that my actions actually occur.

I don't expect sudden rules changes, lying about whether I made a roll or not, nor not knowing how move + attacking works to occur when someone decides to ref. I understand that 3 dimensional aerial battles are hard and most people here don't expect the wizard to you know... use tactics along with their abilities but something as simple as my bats getting their AoOs or being summoned over/under him in range to move and attack things that are actual targets is not hard to adjuticate.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575392Stuff.

Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

Quote from: MGuy;575391A hawk, just in case he saw my shadow on the ground I wanted there to be a plausible thing in the air that could've been casting that shadow. Why not a hawk since I can make my Hawk make actual hawk noises?

well, for once, because silent image can't do that.

first silent image is not mobile

QuoteSilent Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level:    Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect:    Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration:    Concentration
Saving Throw:    Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance:    No

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Focus

A bit of fleece.

you can move the image inside those four + 1/level 10 feet cubes but you must choose that area when you cast the spell and if you move it don't follow. note, I'm not sure if this is relevant, from Jeff's description it sounded like the "hawk" was following Panzerkraken, but if you were actually just floating in mid-air waiting for him to reach you then ignore this part.

Second, and more important, Silent Image is a figment and figment "cannot make something seem to be something else" (invisibility is a glamour for a reason) you can't use the silent image of a cat to hide a horse, you can't make the image of a empty room to hide the fact that you are in that room, you can create the image of a wardrobe, or a cloud in your case and cover inside (note that you would be blind, because unless specified you can't see through your illusions) but you can't use Silent Image to look like an hawk (unless is a really, really big and almost stationary hawk).

Correct me if I'm wrong, please and that is for everybody.

edit: ninja'd, but no surprise.

Quote from: MGuy;575401Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

I'd have to rule against this if I was GM as it seems to little more than an end run around the limit of a Figment compared to an glamers. Thus it's using RAW in bad faith to begin with.

Further it's also a nearly a direct copy of the example when it's stated that a figment can't be used to conceal a trap door. MGuy's version could indeed do so- by covering it with a rug.

Quote from: MGuy;575401Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

Obviously someone is trying to dodge the issue using pure rhetoric.

Quote from: gleichman;575404I'd have to rule against this if I was GM as it seems to little more than an end round around the limit of a Figment compared to an glamers. Thus it's using RAW in bad faith to begin with.

Further it's also a nearly a direct copy of the example when it's stated that a figment can't be used to conceal a trap door. MGuy's version could indeed do so- by covering it with a rug.

If you take it to mean "It can't ever cover anything" then you literally can't put it up anywhere at all ever. Think about it, where could you put an illussion that didn't somehow block something from sight?

Quote from: Benoist;575405Obviously someone is trying to dodge the issue using pure rhetoric.

And Benoist is a mind reader.

It's more likely that MGuy understanding of the rule is incorrect. People don't always have bad intentions when they say incorrect things. Often they are simply wrong.

Quote from: MGuy;575401Sigh.. You can put up a screen around yourself. I don't need the image to be over me I can put it in front of me like a sheet. That sheet can look like anything I want it to look like and not be see through. SO all I have to do is paint a flying hawk over clear blue sky. Obviously someone here never played an illussionist.

beside everything else that could and almost certainly will be said, but, how did you know that Panzerkraken was here to cast solid fog at him? as you said the screen is not see-through. (and I doubt you can make a listen check at -16

Quote from: gleichman;575407And Benoist is a mind reader.

Aren't you supposed to have left the site like ... forever and ever? Is that an echo I'm hearing from afar?

Quote from: Just Another User;575402well, for once, because silent image can't do that.

first silent image is not mobile



you can move the image inside those four + 1/level 10 feet cubes but you must choose that area when you cast the spell and if you move it don't follow. note, I'm not sure if this is relevant, form Jeff's description it sounded like the "hawk" was following Panzerkraken, but if you were actually just floating in mid-air waiting for him to reach you then ignore this part.

Second, and more important, Silent Image is a figment and figment "cannot make something seem to be something else" (invisibility is a glamour for a reason) you can't use the silent image of a cat to hide a horse, you can't make the image of a empty room to hide the fact that you are in that room, you can create the image of a wardrobe, or a cloud in your case and cover inside (note that you would be blind, because unless specified you can't see through your illusions) but you can't use Silent Image to look like an hawk (unless is a really, really big and almost stationary hawk).

Correct me if I'm wrong, please and that is for everybody.

edit: ninja'd, but no surprise.

The range of the spell is Lon range in my case its 800ft (400+40ft/level) which is within the areas I was moving. The size of the image can't be bigger than the dimensions you bolded. And I already said this but if you assume that you can't hide anything behind an image then you literally can't make an image of anything anywhere. My image is the hawk + the sky. Not just the hawk to cover everything.
Also, if you know the image isn't real it becomes transparent so you can see through it.

Quote from: MGuy;575406If you take it to mean "It can't ever cover anything" then you literally can't put it up anywhere at all ever. Think about it, where could you put an illussion that didn't somehow block something from sight?

It's magic, and as such it operates as the rules controlling the said magic says it does. Those rules may or may not be rational, just as magic may or may not be rational.

In this case, to me- it's clear that a figment spell fails when ever it would interfere with an observer seeing something he would consider important. Like the warrior hiding behind a Figment Apple Tree, or a trap door under the rug. In such cases, for the viewer- the magic just fails because it's not powerful enough.