Quote from: deadDMwalking;575287In my opinion, this is something of a coordinated effort to dismiss Kaelik's victory.

I disagree.

At least with spoilers, we have something to read outside of links to die rolls.

Private Messages to ask questions on rulings should be okay.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;575296DeadDM. Kaelik won in the same way that McBride defeated Tyson. We are happy to acknowledge a clear defeat. But it just wasn't one by any reasonable measure. Spike certainy shouldn't have quit but it says nothing about Kaelik or Kaelik's arument about bonedevils. I really think this is quite obvious. If kaelik wants a real victory, we need to see some of this actually play out. Kaelik's "victory" is the sort that satisfies the likes of Don King, but not anyone who genuineoy appreciates the sport. Kaelik presents himself as a true 3E sportsman, and if he wants bragging rights he at least needs to come to blows with the opponent. This is a TKO with an enormous asterisk.

Indeed, an impartial judge would have said "Victory, Kaelik", and let it go at that. He and Kaelik continuing to post on what a big deal it is seems like some sort of coordinated effort, it's pretty small on their part.

As far as the PM's and Spoiler things go...the objections are pretty good, and I don't see any way around it. Just run it like last time, except put a sane time limit on it. We all know the devil can just teleport home, wait 1,000 years, and win every bit as legitimately over JA as with Spike.

I just wanna see this wizard snuffed in 1 round, leading to a TPK fight already....you know, what was actually discussed. Another dull-a-pallooza answers nothing.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;575287In my opinion, this is something of a coordinated effort to dismiss Kaelik's victory.  And that may be human nature, but that's also pretty small.

Kaelik won the round because Spike stepped off.  Good for him, it, however, does not prove his case.

He claimed 100% TPK rate with a Bone Devil vs. a Core 10th level party.  He didn't even inflict a point of damage.  You claiming otherwise is moronic.

TKO is not TPK.  He won the Thunderdome, however, his victory is proof that Spike took a dive and that's it.

If he was a man, he'd declare victory against Spike, call him a pussy, and then ask someone else to step up so he could lay his 100% Guaranteed TPK Bone Devil Smackdown.  But he won't, because he needs the party to be stupid enough to take damage from Walls of Ice, he needs the party to be stupid enough to never disbelieve, he needs the party to be stupid enough to separate after their opponent has already showed the ability to cast Wall of Ice, he needs.... Holy Shit! He needs conditions!  Which means whether the Bone Devil wins or not is conditional on stuff, kind of like...every single person in the thread besides Team Den in that thread was saying.

So yeah, unless he steps up, stops the quivering in his boots and rules lawyering the definition of a plane long enough to actually bring the Bone Devil to inflict damage, he pretty much got an empty victory.  It's pretty evident though, he's the type of person that needs those, so again, good for him.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575334Kaelik won the round because Spike stepped off.  Good for him, it, however, does not prove his case.

He claimed 100% TPK rate with a Bone Devil vs. a Core 10th level party.  He didn't even inflict a point of damage.  You claiming otherwise is moronic.

TKO is not TPK.  He won the Thunderdome, however, his victory is proof that Spike took a dive and that's it.

If he was a man, he'd declare victory against Spike, call him a pussy, and then ask someone else to step up so he could lay his 100% Guaranteed TPK Bone Devil Smackdown.  But he won't, because he needs the party to be stupid enough to take damage from Walls of Ice, he needs the party to be stupid enough to never disbelieve, he needs the party to be stupid enough to separate after their opponent has already showed the ability to cast Wall of Ice, he needs.... Holy Shit! He needs conditions!  Which means whether the Bone Devil wins or not is conditional on stuff, kind of like...every single person in the thread besides Team Den in that thread was saying.

So yeah, unless he steps up, stops the quivering in his boots and rules lawyering the definition of a plane long enough to actually bring the Bone Devil to inflict damage, he pretty much got an empty victory.  It's pretty evident though, he's the type of person that needs those, so again, good for him.

Blarg! I hate when monsters don't immediately attack PCs as well! I mean a monster being CAREFUL? What the fuck is this nonsense that Kaelik was playing at?!

Quote from: MGuy;575343Blarg! I hate when monsters don't immediately attack PCs as well! I mean a monster being CAREFUL? What the fuck is this nonsense that Kaelik was playing at?!

Being careful is fine, but when your claim is inflicting a TPK, that means...actually inflicting a TPK.  Also if your TPK is conditional on such careful preparations, then it is...conditional, not absolute, as was claimed.

You proved your point, he did not.

Quote from: gleichman;575220I'm more worried about cross-talk on the thread not using spoiler tags that reveal something.

I agree with this concern.

Quote from: jibbajibba;575216I think Kaelik and Justin are both able to avoid reading spoiler tags.

I don't have any problem with Kaelik having access to everything I say. My understanding is that the point of the exercise is to let Kaelik demonstrate how he would DM the bone devil while using an independent DM to stop Kaelik from being the whiny, biased cheater his PMs pretty strongly demonstrate that he is. As DM he would have legitimate access to all the actions proposed by the PCs.

But the result of this is an unbalanced field of play that's still admitting Kaelik's bias: Kaelik badgered the DM for favorable rulings on every single action proposed by Spike. Spike was able to defend himself against those attempts when they were made publicly. But Kaelik was also badgering the DM for favorable rulings on all of his secret actions as well.

I was fairly impressed with deadDMwalking's willingness to ignore Kaelik's whining, which is why I didn't insist on a new DM. But if I was watching a sporting event where one team (and only one team) was allowed to periodically take the umpires into a private room and badger them for favorable rulings, there would be no perception of fairness in that event (regardless of what the umpires actually ruled).

Kaelik and deadDMwalking both want a portion of an event which is supposed to openly demonstrate the bone devil's superiority to instead be a black box that absolutely no one else is allowed to look in. Their bizarro world objections ("the observers will cheat by sending you information!" and "I can't be fair and open because it will only allow people to accuse me of not being fair and open!", respectively) only serve to confirm that they have no interest in an open or fair process.

Quote from: Kaelik;575116The fact that you not only demand that the Monster must be a Bone Devil...

Here's a really special breed of stupidity: Kaelik wants to use a monster other than a bone devil to confirm that a bone devil will TPK a party 100% of the time.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575334He claimed 100% TPK rate with a Bone Devil vs. a Core 10th level party.  He didn't even inflict a point of damage.  You claiming otherwise is moronic.

CRKrueger, I challenge you: You play the heroes, I'll play the bone devil.

...

Okay, I forfeit.

Looks like this thing is a 1-1 tie between heroes and bone devils, folks.

I'd just like to congratulate you, CRKrueger, on your amazing accomplishment here. I think you've clearly demonstrated the vulnerability of the bone devil. And I hope we don't see any kind of "coordinated" effort to discredit your victory.

:rolleyes:

Shut'er down!

Quote from: Justin Alexander;575366Kaelik badgered the DM for favorable rulings on every single action proposed by Spike. Spike was able to defend himself against those attempts when they were made publicly.

Name a single instance in the Thunderdome where I said that Spikes idea was wrong and he actually wasn't. Just tell me you believe that Spike was right.

Was Spike right that his characters could have 14 ranks in skills? Was Spike right that Stoneskin has a duration of 10 hours? Was Spike right that Clerics can cast all their spells in an eight hour period, then immediately afterword pray and regain those same slots they just cast?

That's literally every single time I "badgered" them to follow the rules about Spike's characters.

It's not badgering if it was correct and there was universal and uncontested agreement amongst all three parties that it was correct.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;575366Here's a really special breed of stupidity: Kaelik wants to use a monster other than a bone devil to confirm that a bone devil will TPK a party 100% of the time.

Quote from: me in the thread that spawned thisif you play monsters as even remotely intelligent and by the book, you can probably TPK every core party I've ever seen.

Emphasis added.

Quote from: CRKrueger;575256Without an agreed upon GM or method of GMing, and pretty sure everyone is going to want to see the Bone Devil which the Denners will try to weasel out of, might as well shut this whore down too Dan, no Design, Development or Gameplay is gonna happen.

Nah, you guys can argue in this thread 'till doomsday.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;575610whining

I'm refusing a rematch because one of your conditions is that you get to cheat.

I explained that I don't trust anyone on this fucking forum, least of all you. (Well, least of all Benoist, then Spike, then you.) Any condition which makes it significantly more likely that you are cheating is bad. Any condition that is allegedly to prevent me from badgering deadDM, but doesn't do that, and does require telling a bunch of people every action I take so that you can cheat even more so.

Quote from: Kaelik;575716I'm refusing a rematch because one of your conditions is that you get to cheat.

I explained that I don't trust anyone on this fucking forum, least of all you. (Well, least of all Benoist, then Spike, then you.) Any condition which makes it significantly more likely that you are cheating is bad. Any condition that is allegedly to prevent me from badgering deadDM, but doesn't do that, and does require telling a bunch of people every action I take so that you can cheat even more so.

You have every right not to want to rematch. But I really think people have expressed valid concerns about the badgering. I would suggest you try to imagine it from other peoples' point of view. Read your PMs to deadDM, but imagine the exchange was between Justin and Jeff. I also think there is little point in doing these sorts of things with people you say you don't trust. It is only a made up contest on the internet, not a competition for real gold and glory. If people feel they have to cheat to impress the five posters actually reading the thread, that is just sad. But I think both you and Justin can refrain from doing that.

Aother solution is to allow Kaelik to Pm on the condition he doesn't argue with DeadDM, call him names, accuse him of taking sides, etc. I think if you removed that part of his PMing, it would have been fine. And since this stuff would all be posted after the fact, it ca be checked. So if the Pming is deemed essential here, that seems like a fair solution to me. But it is ultimately up to Justin and Kaelik if that is acceptible.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;575717But I really think people have expressed valid concerns about the badgering.

And I think they have not. They admitted that deadDM never ruled in my favor even once on any contested issue, but need to read everything I post anyways because... definitely not so that metagaming could happen... some other reason.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;575717I would suggest you try to imagine it from other peoples' point of view. Read your PMs to deadDM, but imagine the exchange was between Justin and Jeff.

I know Justin and Jeff are dishonest assholes who would both cheat for the "victory" in a Thunderdome, and I watched jeff do just that.

Since everyone here has largely admitted that deadDM is not going to cheat on my behalf, the situation does not compare.

Okay this is done.

You can can't have a test where the two sides don't trust each other to participate honestly.
Kaelik, i stood up for you guys but now you just look like a bit of a douche, sorry mate.