Quote from: Benoist;577752You are under the delusion that white-room scenarios akin to the "thunderdomes" on this board equate "actual game play".

It just isn't the case. Sorry.

If it's a real game then the horrible monster has even more power because I wouldn't have deadDM breathing down my neck making sure I'm playing fair.

Quote from: Fiasco;577722So if you are only needing RAW why all your panty twisting about any hint of the party being optimized for Bone Devils. I recall you complaining that Spike had a holy weapon in his core party because it smacked of meta gaming (as opposed to many people just liking the coolness of holy weapons irrespective of whether they are an optimal choice).

Wow, I have to delete half your post to get rid of all the irrelevant whining about how I'm a bad person based on your zero experience gaming with me.

I care about the party being built specifically for Bone Devils because by the book you face 4 encounters of appropriate CR a day, and if the parties dies on the fourth encounter, then clearly I am right. Now, as a general rule, most if not all of those encounters are going to be made without knowing in advance what you are facing.

So when I'm being super duper nice by using only one EL 9 encounter against a level 10 party in one day, instead of a EL 9, two EL 10s, and a EL 11. I think it's pretty silly to insist that they must also know exactly what they are facing, and have spent thousands of gp preparing specifically for it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;577552I don't think Kaelik indicated that infinite quantities were available everywhere...

Quote from: Kaelik;577397Because we are playing by the rules. And by the  rules, there is an infinite supply of all items, and the local supply is  determined 100% by price.

Now shut the fuck up.  How can there be an infinite quantity and not be available everywhere?  Goddamn it, you are a moron.

QuoteIf you think the D&D multi-verse is stupid, that's fine.  But I don't think that trying to derive the logical results of the world is stupid.  So if you don't like infinite items, probably the first thing you should do is get rid of 'infinite planes'.  

No, I think the full retard interpretations of you and your cohort are stupid.

QuoteWould you like a Ferrari if it were free?  

No.  What the fuck would I do with a Ferrari?  Pretend I am an independent roofing contractor.  Where would I put a ladder, let alone a full set of tools and shingles?  Maybe I train horses for a living.  Who do you suppose makes horse trailer hitches that fit on a Ferrari?  Instead, I am a long haul trucker; how many semi-trailers can a Ferrari pull?

I mean, holy shit, it's like nothing you do has any contact with the real world.  If it sounds vaguely reasonable to you, then it must be an axiom, right?  "Everyone wants a Ferrari" is only a shade less stupid than "there is an infinite supply of everything", but only a shade.

QuoteYou see, Demand can be graphed as the number of units DESIRED at a given cost.

Sure.  But you still need to track the supply, you fucking moron, or you can't determine a price.

QuoteSo, at the price of FREE, everyone wants at least one Ferrari.  

For a variety of reasons: no, they don't.  Like all the rest of the diarrhoea that dribbles off your keyboard, this is stunningly retarded.

QuoteBut if you're still confused, please feel free to ask the Econ 101 teacher at your local community college.

I'm guessing that is the only class you took there, because Econ 101 is the first casualty of reality when you move out of your parent's basement.  Check out this gem:

QuoteAt a price of $5,000,000, the Ferrari company would probably expand  their capability and produce more than the roughly 7,000 they sold in  2011.

Please, please, please tell me you don't think there were only 7,000 Ferraris made because they simply lacked the capacity to produce more.

I mean, is everything white-room theory for you Denners?  It's almost exactly like not a single one of you has ever left the confines of your own minds or something.

Quote from: Kaelik;577765Wow, I have to delete half your post to get rid of all the irrelevant whining about how I'm a bad person based on your zero experience gaming with me.

No, gaming has almost nothing to do with the determination that you are a shitty person

QuoteI care about the party being built specifically for Bone Devils because by the book you face 4 encounters of appropriate CR a day, and if the parties dies on the fourth encounter, then clearly I am right. Now, as a general rule, most if not all of those encounters are going to be made without knowing in advance what you are facing.

Oh, I don't think it would take too much to figure out you are facing an asshole DM who has a Bone Devil ice wall everything in sight and teleport around avoiding the party.

QuoteI think it's pretty silly to insist that they must also know exactly what they are facing, and have spent thousands of gp preparing specifically for it.

So, 'scry-and-die' is bullshit and Wizards aren't as powerful as you claim?

StormBringer please stop spazzing out. I think you've forgotten the point.

-If you are playing 3.5 you will face monster that have a CR equal to the party's level.
-If those monsters are played intelligently they will wipe out the party if they are limited to the core books
You can concede to this point or dispute it.
If you wish to dispute this point Kaelik or I are willing to run a scenario with and impartial arbiter to prove our point.

Otherwise stop spazzing out about rules minutia

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577771StormBringer please stop spazzing out. I think you've forgotten the point.

No, I think you have forgotten the point.  You and your Denner cohort are a bunch of full retard theory-players that haven't sat at an actual table and rolled dice.

QuoteYou can concede to this point or dispute it.

In fact, I don't have to do either of those things.  You made the assertion, it's up to you to prove it, not me to disprove it.  Simply making noises with your blowhole doesn't mean it is automatically the truth.

QuoteOtherwise stop spazzing out about rules minutia

I think you mean, "Stop making the Denners look like idiots because reality".  You didn't think I was really 'debating' anything with you morons, did you?  I mean, there are invertebrate animals out there with more smarts than the lot of you put together.  I am just pointing out the ever increasing levels of stupidity expressed by your ship of fools.

Quote from: StormBringer;577775No, I think you have forgotten the point.  You and your Denner cohort are a bunch of full retard theory-players that haven't sat at an actual table and rolled dice.

It's more like I'm sempai's cohort. Anyway I'm in a game right now. My experiences there aren't relevant to this particular point.

Quote from: StormBringer;577775In fact, I don't have to do either of those things.  You made the assertion, it's up to you to prove it, not me to disprove it.  Simply making noises with your blowhole doesn't mean it is automatically the truth.

We've made a claim and we have some evidence to prove it. It was clear to me that the Bone Devil was going to grind out Spike's party if you think you could do better both Kaelik and I have a standing offer to prove our point with something more concrete than name calling and bad logic, which seems like all you're good for.

Quote from: StormBringer;577775I think you mean, "Stop making the Denners look like idiots because reality".

No StormBringer you are the idiots.

Quote from: StormBringer;577766How can there be an infinite quantity and not be available everywhere?  Goddamn it, you are a moron.

Hey remember those infinite planes? I ask because you are stupid and forget everything as soon as it occurs, but when you divide an infinite supply of items across an infinite distance you can very easily get a finite number of items in a given location.

Quote from: StormBringer;577768Oh, I don't think it would take too much to figure out you are facing an asshole DM who has a Bone Devil ice wall everything in sight and teleport around avoiding the party.

Well, it probably would, because asshole DM or no, he's not limited to a Bone Devil only. As I said, there are lots of other monsters that can TPK the party as well. So you could be facing a Slaad, Hezrou, Greater Earth Elemental, ect.

Quote from: StormBringer;577768So, 'scry-and-die' is bullshit and Wizards aren't as powerful as you claim?

I never claimed Wizards are particularly powerful. What is it with so many RPGsiters being literally incapable of differentiating people from other people?

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577778It's more like I'm sempai cohort. Anyway I'm in a game right now. My experiences there aren't relevant to this particular point.

Your experiences anywhere aren't relevant, because you are a shitty player.

QuoteWe've made a claim and we have some evidence to prove it.

No, you really don't.

QuoteIt was clear to me...

Protip:  This has nothing to do with 'evidence'.

Quote...that the Bone Devil was going to grind out Spike's party if you think you could do better both Kaelik have offer to prove are point

You don't have a point, you have whining.

Quotewith something more concrete than name calling and bad logic, which seems like all you're good for.

You don't even grasp that the argument isn't mine to disprove, which demonstrates the height and breadth of your vaunted 'logic'.

QuoteNo StormBringer you are the idiots.

I'm not plural, and you are still an idiot.

Quote from: Kaelik;577780Hey remember those infinite planes? I ask because you are stupid and forget everything as soon as it occurs, but when you divide an infinite supply of items across an infinite distance you can very easily get a finite number of items in a given location.

Wow.

QuoteWell, it probably would, because asshole DM or no, he's not limited to a Bone Devil only. As I said, there are lots of other monsters that can TPK the party as well. So you could be facing a Slaad, Hezrou, Greater Earth Elemental, ect.

Notice how "I said" is different than "I proved"?

QuoteI never claimed Wizards are particularly powerful. What is it with so many RPGsiters being literally incapable of differentiating people from other people?

Perhaps because once you folks reached a certain level of stupidity, the categories didn't really matter very much.

We can't know for sure what would've happened because Spike ragequit but he had no counter for see in darkness no counter for wall of ice spam, and no counter for major image. If Kaelik had been alowed to continue I don't see how Spike could have won.

You don't get to play rectorical games here either man up and face the thunderdome or conced the argument.

Stop whinging, seriously.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577784If Kaelik had been alowed to continue I don't see how Spike could have won.

Still not 'evidence'.

QuoteYou don't get to play rectorical games here either man up and face the thunderdome or conced the argument.

That's the point, junior.  You don't have an 'argument'.  The best that could be said is that you have something like a 'statement', although it's pretty clear even that statement is based on wildly stacking things in your favour.

QuoteStop whinging, seriously.

Start making arguments, seriously.

Quote from: StormBringer;577786Still not 'evidence'.

Then what would be evidence I'm not going to debate a phantom here.

Our position is that in this scenario
-4 10th level PCs core only. Played by somone from this site.
-facing an unknow CR~10 monster. Played by either sempai or myself.

the monster wins ~90% of the time even though the book says it should lose 100% of the time.

Do you dispute this claim.

Quote from: StormBringer;577766Now shut the fuck up.  How can there be an infinite quantity and not be available everywhere?  Goddamn it, you are a moron.

Kaelik already addressed it, but usually you're too dense to catch it the first time.  If the planes are infinite (which is more than REALLY BIG) then there really is an infinite supply of everything.  If the number of Prime Planes is infinite, and each of them has one Tarrasque, the number of Tarrasques is also infinite.  

Quote from: deadDMwalkingOriginally Posted by deadDMwalking  
I don't think Kaelik indicated that infinite quantities were available everywhere...

Oh, here it is:

Quote from: Kaelik;577406As for the rules about the supply of magic items, that's on pg. 137, under Community Wealth and Population. Which says that they most likely have any item under their gp limit, and that they have enough to max out the value on any item set they have.

So literally, you can walk into any Small City with 12,000 people and buy 9,000,000gp worth of 8,000gp items (or 1125) or 9,000,000gp worth of 12,000gp items (or 750).

Yep.  He's not saying you can buy infinite numbers of any particular item - he's saying the limit (there is one) is determined by the community wealth and population.  So you could be 1125 items that cost 8,000 GP.  1125 is significantly less than infinite.  

Therefore, while the total supply might be infinite (because of the infinite planes and what not) the local supply need not be infinite.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577766No.  What the fuck would I do with a Ferrari?  Pretend I am an independent roofing contractor.  Where would I put a ladder, let alone a full set of tools and shingles?  Maybe I train horses for a living.  Who do you suppose makes horse trailer hitches that fit on a Ferrari?  Instead, I am a long haul trucker; how many semi-trailers can a Ferrari pull?

Man, I don't want to call you retarded, but stop acting like it.  Let's pretend that you are an independent roofing contractor.  You probably already have a truck or van to carry all your stuff.  So, do you take that car to the restaurant?  How about on a date.  You find me a roofing contractor that WOULDN'T take a free ferrari - even with a gas guzzling performance engine, the gas mileage is still probably better than their work truck, and it sure would impress a date a lot more.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577766I mean, holy shit, it's like nothing you do has any contact with the real world.  If it sounds vaguely reasonable to you, then it must be an axiom, right?  "Everyone wants a Ferrari" is only a shade less stupid than "there is an infinite supply of everything", but only a shade.

It's true that not everyone wants a Ferrari, even if it's free.  Most people do (several, possibly) but everyone is clearly an exaggeration.  There are some people that can't drive cars or won't drive cars.  There are some people that object to motorized vehicles for environmental or religious reasons.  But feel free to provide me the exact numbers.  Go ask 100 of your high school 'friends' if they'd accept a free Ferrari and you tell me how many of them say no.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577766Sure.  But you still need to track the supply, you fucking moron, or you can't determine a price.

You must be pretty pissed off.  I notice that you use a lot more personal insults when you start to realize that you're indefensibly wrong.  When you draw a supply and demand graph, you have units on one axis and price on another axis.  You can graph the price from any point, even from a point where supply equals zero.  Recognizing that doesn't make me a fucking a moron.  Failing to recognize how a two-axis graph works or a basic supply-and-demand graph doesn't make you a fucking moron, either.  Insisting you know how it works and then showing you don't is what makes you a fucking moron.  And a dumbass.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577766I'm guessing that is the only class you took there, because Econ 101 is the first casualty of reality when you move out of your parent's basement.

Wow.  I must really have hit a nerve.  Actually, I took Econ 102, too.  And I haven't lived with my parents since the summer after my Freshman year in college (that was 1998).  I haven't lived in the same state as my parents since 2001.  I own my own home; it's very nice.  What does that mean?  

I guess you want me to be a miserable excuse for a human being since you don't like me being right.  For your sake, I'm sorry that my life is pretty damn decent.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577766Please, please, please tell me you don't think there were only 7,000 Ferraris made because they simply lacked the capacity to produce more.

No.  I don't.  If you want to talk about maximizing profits and creating scarcity, we could.  But if they could have sold 10,000 units for $5 million each, they would have.  If they could have sold 20,000 units for $10 million each, they would have.  But supply and demand don't work that way.  If they had manufactured 20,000 units, they'd get significantly less than the approximately $1 million per unit they made from the approximately 7,000 units they sold in 2011.  With more units available, there would be less 'pressure' to bid up the price.  With excess supply, the price would fall.  I thought we covered that in our first post about supply and demand.  

Though how supply and demand in the real world is supposed to relate to supply and demand in a game that actually has an infinite number of wish granting creatures is anyone's guess.  Why did you bring it up again?  Is it because you were so upset that you were losing an argument about 'rules' that you decided to bring 'common sense' into a game about real magic, even though you don't understand basic economic theory?  That's how I remember it going down.  

Quote from: StormBringer;577766I mean, is everything white-room theory for you Denners?  It's almost exactly like not a single one of you has ever left the confines of your own minds or something.

After interacting with your clearly disordered mind, that has some appeal.  But no, seriously, where is the 'white room theory' coming in here?  It's a game.  The contention can be proven 'in game'.  Clearly, Kaelik deduced this contention by experiencing 'the game', because thinking about it WITHOUT doing it, might cause you to miss something.  Then when his observation was challenged, he provided an opportunity to show others his observation in as close to a 'real game' environment as is possible considering the limitations in communication based on posting time and geographical distance.  

But tell me this - if you don't care about 'white room theory', then why do you keep insisting the party would have avoided a TPK?  

Oh - and in case you forgot since it was more than 2 paragraphs up the page - you're a fucking moronic dumbass.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;577792awesome post

Seriously deadDM I couldn't say it better myself.