Quote from: Kaelik;577435No dumbass. When I was pointing out that high school economics tells you that obviously something with the same demand has a higher price, and you were being an idiot and saying that you would pay twice as much for something half as useful, I knew that the supply of all items is equal, because I know the rules, and you were talking out of your ass, because you can't even manage to figure out the rules for making an item of darkvision while reading them.

I am legitmately surprised that you didn't peg him for refering to high school economics as "Vast Knowledge".

Quote from: Kaelik;577435I knew that the supply of all items is equal, because I know the rules...

This is quite literally impossible, no matter what the rules say.  But at least we have pinpointed your OCD-like adherence to the rules as the core of your constant failure in interpreting anything related to D&D.

Quote from: StormBringer;577449This is quite literally impossible, no matter what the rules say.  But at least we have pinpointed your OCD-like adherence to the rules as the core of your constant failure in interpreting anything related to D&D.

Indeed, truly, how dare I adhere to the rules in a discussion of by the book gaming. What a grievous sin I have committed.

Stormbringer IS sounding a little confused but there is no doubt that Kaelik is getting his panties in a fearful twist at the prospect of this Thunderdome.

Incidentally, wouldn't the bag of continually lit stones be a very legitimate solution to this issue. It's a very old school tactic applicable in many, many situations including dealing wih dark dungeons. Or did 3.5 do away with that?

Quote from: Fiasco;577468Incidentally, wouldn't the bag of continually lit stones be a very legitimate solution to this issue. It's a very old school tactic applicable in many, many situations including dealing wih dark dungeons. Or did 3.5 do away with that?

No, you can freely bring your assorted stones. But that's just basically another torch for the purposes of letting Demons/Slaads/Elementals seeing you ahead of time. Except it costs real money.

So this is a tactic that only really helps against Devils and hurts against everything else compared to just having Darkvision.

Quote from: Kaelik;577466Indeed, truly, how dare I adhere to the rules in a discussion of by the book gaming. What a grievous sin I have committed.

Yeah I don't get this one either.

Sempai do you think you can wipe a party built to kill Bone Devils or are you going to need a new monster.

I think the people here have latched on to the Bone Devil thing, and have sort of forgotten the purpose of this exercise.

I think we've repurposed this exercise to help educate Stormbringer.  We can't make him understand his textbooks, but if he spends enough time quoting them in support of our point, instead of in support of his own, he MIGHT just come to learn something.

Earlier it sounded like victory was conditional on a party not prepared for a bone devil (or the tactics the GM intended to use) in particular, which was why a second monster was called for. I'd posit the thunderdome was a poor choice to begin with then, since all parties know the monster and could easily deduce it's tactics.

Why not just start a RAW-tight 3x game with no point to prove as a way of gaining shared experience that can be used to illustrate points later? Maybe start at a "broken" level (6+) with mixed classes but minimized build options (since that standard party would cover a lot of the larger arguments' ground) and just see what happens?

Quote from: beejazz;577522Earlier it sounded like victory was conditional on a party not prepared for a bone devil (or the tactics the GM intended to use) in particular, which was why a second monster was called for. I'd posit the thunderdome was a poor choice to begin with then, since all parties know the monster and could easily deduce it's tactics.

Why not just start a RAW-tight 3x game with no point to prove as a way of gaining shared experience that can be used to illustrate points later? Maybe start at a "broken" level (6+) with mixed classes but minimized build options (since that standard party would cover a lot of the larger arguments' ground) and just see what happens?

Not the worst suggestion but there is too much bad faith on both sides. Also there is no getting away from the fact that play by post is painfully slow.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577483Yeah I don't get this one either.

Sempai do you think you can wipe a party built to kill Bone Devils or are you going to need a new monster.

I think the people here have latched on to the Bone Devil thing, and have sort of forgotten the purpose of this exercise.

Well, it probably depends on the party. I think if they are literally built from the Ground up knowing specifically what the tactics/environment is for the Bone Devil fight, and knowing they will never face anything else, then they could probably build a core party that, using like 3 or four days, successfully kills the CR 9 Bone Devil.

Of course, that same party could walk into the same dungeon and face a Vrock and lose, because it would be so built for dealing with Bone Devils.

Also there is some possibility that a party of Druid/Druid/Druid/Wizard might be capable of dealing with multiple monsters, but they would still have to know in advance they are facing a Bone Devil. But of course, it would be cute if they admitted Caster disparity in order to try to Thunderdome a Bone Devil.

I'm also really certain that they can't make a level 10 party, no matter how much preparation in advance for specific monsters that can face 4 appropriately ELed encounters in the same day without TPKing like they are supposed to under the rules.

But it's sort of a moot point at this point, because Justin refuses to engage in anything in which other people don't read my actions and tell him what I am doing, and no one else was ever willing to do it, at least in part because they don't know 3e.

Quote from: Kaelik;577469No, you can freely bring your assorted stones. But that's just basically another torch for the purposes of letting Demons/Slaads/Elementals seeing you ahead of time. Except it costs real money.

So this is a tactic that only really helps against Devils and hurts against everything else compared to just having Darkvision.

Can't win either way it looks. Either the party is meta gaming because they all have dark vision to foil the devil or they are meta gaming by having a standard adventuring trick like a bag full of glowing stones (which are apparently useless than anything except devils). Neat.

Quote from: Fiasco;577524Not the worst suggestion but there is too much bad faith on both sides. Also there is no getting away from the fact that play by post is painfully slow.

People can always do skype. Might improve the bad faith issue because it is hard to be rude when you are actually talking and gaming together.

However I think there is little point testing the bone devil scenario as many of us misunderdtood what kaelik was seeking to prove (it doesn't look like anyone objects to the claim that intelligently played bone devils CAN tpk a party.)

Quote from: Kaelik;577466Indeed, truly, how dare I adhere to the rules in a discussion of by the book gaming. What a grievous sin I have committed.

This is where your OCD truly trips you up.  If the rules state something that is clearly impossible, like everything is available in infinite quantities and supply is exactly the same everywhere, the rules need to be ignored.

Assuming those rules even exist in the first place.  I think a request was made for you to point out where it says 'supply is infinite' and 'demand is the same everywhere for everything'.  I assume this stems from your bizarro world claim that 'everyone wants a Ferarri'.

Quote from: Kaelik;577526Well, it probably depends on the party. I think if they are literally built from the Ground up knowing specifically what the tactics/environment is for the Bone Devil fight, and knowing they will never face anything else, then they could probably build a core party that, using like 3 or four days, successfully kills the CR 9 Bone Devil.

Of course, that same party could walk into the same dungeon and face a Vrock and lose, because it would be so built for dealing with Bone Devils.

Also there is some possibility that a party of Druid/Druid/Druid/Wizard might be capable of dealing with multiple monsters, but they would still have to know in advance they are facing a Bone Devil. But of course, it would be cute if they admitted Caster disparity in order to try to Thunderdome a Bone Devil.

I'm also really certain that they can't make a level 10 party, no matter how much preparation in advance for specific monsters that can face 4 appropriately ELed encounters in the same day without TPKing like they are supposed to under the rules.

You haven't actually played D&D, have you?

Quote from: Fiasco;577529Can't win either way it looks. Either the party is meta gaming because they all have dark vision to foil the devil or they are meta gaming by having a standard adventuring trick like a bag full of glowing stones (which are apparently useless than anything except devils). Neat.

Stop being a lying shitface. I never said it was metagaming to have Darkvision. That's just good sense. It just happens to be the case that Stormbringer has difficulty understanding how the rules do or do not allow you to get Darkvision.

Bringing a bag full of stones is 1) costly, and 2) Doesn't help you against anything that is not a devil. So yes, it's probably metagaming if you do that, but I don't care because if a party doesn't know they are facing specifically a Bone Devil in advance, they can metagame against a Bone Devil as much as they want, and feel stupid when they face a Vrock.

Quote from: StormBringer;577532Assuming those rules even exist in the first place.

I already told you were those rules are. It's not my fault you don't own a 3.5 DMG and can't look them up.