Quote from: Lord Mistborn;576987Sweet Byakuren on a rice cracker.

StormBringer if darkvision is so important to you Extended Darkvision is a 3rd level spell and it lasts all day. No need to spend ~20% of your WBL on some item. I can not belive you are arguing for custom items that like the frist thing that DMs come down on, you should really know better.

If you can't believe it I suggest rereading the last few posts between him and Kaelik while contemplating the fact that people on this site call you derogatory names for knowing the rules. Storm is a particularly odd case because he seems to think he's able to dictate how rules work even when he does not know what he's talking about.

I mean he seriously argued with me about how rules for a game I'm writing work even after I straight up told him he was wrong and why he wrong. Totally not kidding.

Quote from: MGuy;576991I mean he seriously argued with me about how rules for a game I'm writing work even after I straight up told him he was wrong and why he wrong. Totally not kidding.

and they call us rules wankers

Not understanding how increasing demand INCREASES price is pretty stupid.  I didn't figure Stormbringer for a high school student, but now I'm pretty much forced to.  

A Ferrari is more expensive because EVERYONE wants one.  If they cost $15,000, everyone would buy one.  But they don't make enough, so people keep bidding the price up until only a very few people can afford to buy them.  

The demand for Ferraris is not 'people with enough money to afford them' - it is 'people who want a car'.  It just happens that competition for a limited resource drives the price beyond what 99% of the market could bear.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;577051Not understanding how increasing demand INCREASES price is pretty stupid.  I didn't figure Stormbringer for a high school student, but now I'm pretty much forced to.  

A Ferrari is more expensive because EVERYONE wants one.  If they cost $15,000, everyone would buy one.  But they don't make enough, so people keep bidding the price up until only a very few people can afford to buy them.  

The demand for Ferraris is not 'people with enough money to afford them' - it is 'people who want a car'.  It just happens that competition for a limited resource drives the price beyond what 99% of the market could bear.

Wow.  You really think that everyone wants a Ferrari?  They are good for long haul trucking, moving furniture, and getting a load of wood out of the back 40?

I am going to let the last couple of posts just stand as they are, because they say more than I could ever draw out of you lot.

Just a few quickies, though, for the Milton Friedmans on the thread:

Demand, all by itself, doesn't increase the cost.

Quote

• If demand increases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price and higher quantity
• If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and lower quantity.
• If supply increases and demand remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and higher quantity.
• If supply decreases and demand remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price and lower quantity.

Ferraris don't cost $100,000 because "everyone wants one".  Ferraris cost $100,000 because not everyone can get one.  The supply is very much smaller than the supply for a Taurus.  Also, quality, prestige, and name recognition have parts to play.  You folks didn't honestly think it was just "everybody wants one", right?  I mean, your cohort has failed at everything else pretty hard, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Also, your game?  I was trying to offer some advice about how you were already fucking it up, but you want to charge ahead like a bull in a china shop.  Have fun with that.

Quote from: Kaelik;576980Are you and idiot? What the fuck are you talking about. Darkvision is a  spell which has a duration of one hour per level. The fact that you can  change that duration by casting a level 5 spell does not make items of  it cheaper.

And... you still can't read. Why are you dividing in half? Because you  personally want to pay half as much for all your items? Eat shit and  die. By the book you don't get to just halve the price for no reason.

Oh, yeah, and this piece of genius.  I was hoping I wouldn't have to re-create the whole chart, so I will just provide a link (once again), and hopefully you can get someone to read it to you:

QuoteTable: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Spell Effect section
Line Item 5:
Use-activated or continuous | Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp(3)

3. If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration  measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell  is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10  minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour  duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

Now, that could reasonably be considered that a duration of hours/level is multiplied by 1.  Or, getting a 12th level Wizard to cast the Extended version also gives the spell a "24-hour duration".  Of course, there aren't a whole lot of details on how to make any given spell 'continuous' for a magic item, but presumably that is part of the costs given for the line item 'Use-activated or continuous'.  If it makes things easier for your simple thought processes, we can just say it is 'use-activated' for the three hours a day the minimum 3rd level Wizard would need to cast it into the ring.

And the bit about having 50 charges:

QuoteTable: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Spell Effect section
Line Item 3:
50 charges, spell trigger | Spell level × caster level × 750 gp

Quote from: Kaelik;576980But now you are unhappy that Dungeons are dark and  that monsters use their SLAs... Stop being such an idiot. Play by the  book, and stop trying to pile arbitrary advantages on top of arbitrary  advantages.

Oh, you mean using the spells in the core books is an arbitrary  advantage?  Noted.  In other words, the only way you can play a monster  'intelligently' is if the PCs are played like complete morons.  Got it.

QuoteThat is the price of Continuous Use Permanency, because you keep  talking about items with Permanency as if they are cheaper.

"Continuous Use Permanency"?  You do know what 'permanent' means, right?

QuoteNo, incorrect. The Darkvision can still be dispelled. Only the permanency cannot.

So, you are the asshole DM that you keep whining about.  Got it.  Unless  you were to suddenly have a change of heart and point to something in  the rules that backs up your assertion?  No, it's ok, I know you can't.

Quote from: StormBringer;577063Unless  you were to suddenly have a change of heart and point to something in  the rules that backs up your assertion?  No, it's ok, I know you can't.

Oh right, that's why I was ignoring you. Because you are a dishonest shit who doesn't quote the part where I quoted the rules and explained them to you, and then lies about whether I pointed to something in the rules.

Same issue for the rest of your post.

Remember this:

Quote from: Stormbringer the idiotI would probably reduce the price somewhat if it were a general item rather than only usable by spiders. Are you familiar with 'economics'?

Quote from: High School Level EconomicsIf demand increases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price and higher quantity

So if an item had the same supply, but had a greater demand, you would reduce the price. High School Economics disagrees.

Quote from: StormBringer;577063Oh, you mean using the spells in the core books is an arbitrary advantage? Noted. In other words, the only way you can play a monster 'intelligently' is if the PCs are played like complete morons. Got it.

No, I mean that we've proven that you can't use the spells in the core books to do what you think you can, because you don't know the rules. So I'm not going to grant one more favor to the party that I've already granted so many by making all the hallways magically lite without any resources expended by the party like you begged for, just because you are too stupid to figure out how to get Darkvision on your party.

For fucks sake, even Spike was smart enough to figure out how to do that, and he couldn't even beat a single Wall of Ice. You should be endeavoring to do better than him, not asking for favors even he didn't have to ask for.

Quote from: Kaelik;577069So if an item had the same supply, but had a greater demand, you would reduce the price. High School Economics disagrees.

So, you are saying that an item usable by spiders only has a greater demand?  Or would the Ring of Darkvision, usable by anyone, have the greater demand?

demand have nothing to do with price in magic creation guidelines, game balance has.

So the question is, a magic item usable only by X is more or less powerful/useful than a item usable by everyone?

also, a 7 level wizard can't use permanency.

And if anyone cares, the original occupants of the tomb (at least, at the point when the Bone Devil was summoned) did need light to see, and the whole tomb was lit.  Removing all the light sources was the FIRST thing that the Bone Devil did.

Quote from: Just Another User;577129demand have nothing to do with price in magic creation guidelines, game balance has.

So the question is, a magic item usable only by X is more or less powerful/useful than a item usable by everyone?

Which is true, of course.  An item that can only be used by spiders(?) is clearly less useful than one that any PC race can use, although the players might find a dupe on which to offload it, or possibly a sentient spider that would trade for another magic item or information.  The value is pretty situational.

Quotealso, a 7 level wizard can't use permanency.

Apparently, they were assuming a scroll before making the argument that a scroll is ridiculously expensive.  And even then, I don't think it could be used, by the rules.  The spells affected by permanency chart starts at 9th level, so it would take a bit of fiddling for some of them.  Darkvision shouldn't be a problem, because the Wizard should at least be able to cast it.  Other spells that are higher than 4th level would probably also need to be scrolls, but that is entirely houseruling the situation.  Equally valid is saying a 7th level Wizard just can't use permanency, scroll or otherwise.

Quote from: Kaelik;577069So if an item had the same supply, but had a greater demand, you would reduce the price. High School Economics disagrees.

Why would there be the same supply of 'spider only' rings as 'anyone can use them' rings?  Do you think there is some huge market for arachnid magic items that needs catering to in most campaigns?  Some mystical law that every general purpose magic item must have a matching 'spiders only' magic item?  You practically blew a gasket over a piddly 1000xp to cast permanency, but you assume Wizards are shitting a magnitude of order more than that whipping out items for for the incredibly un-lucrative 'spiders only' market?  Arachnid Wand of Web?  Arachnid Slippers of Spider Climbing?  Arachnid Cloak of Arachnida?

So, for every 99 regular Rings of Darkvision, some goofball makes one usable only for spiders.  If the demand is in fact the same for the two items, which one is going to be more expensive?
(Hint #1:  It's the one that says "If supply increases and demand remains unchanged...")
(Hint #2: Pretend the general use ring is a Taurus, and the spider only ring is a Ferarri.  Which one costs less?)

Quote from: StormBringer;577309Why would there be the same supply of 'spider only' rings as 'anyone can use them' rings?

Because we are playing by the rules. And by the rules, there is an infinite supply of all items, and the local supply is determined 100% by price.

So if you claim that a Ring of Darkvision (anyone) costs less a Ring of Darkvision (Spider) then by the rules, it has a greater supply. Which is of course incompatible with it having a lower price, given the increased demand.

But I can understand why you wouldn't have thought of that, because you don't actually know the rules.

Like for example the rules that specifically state that an item that can be used by fewer people, say, only those of a specific class or alignment, or having a specific skill, cost less than the base price, not more.

Quote from: Kaelik;577397Because we are playing by the rules. And by the rules, there is an infinite supply of all items, and the local supply is determined 100% by price.

So if you claim that a Ring of Darkvision (anyone) costs less a Ring of Darkvision (Spider) then by the rules, it has a greater supply. Which is of course incompatible with it having a lower price, given the increased demand.

But I can understand why you wouldn't have thought of that, because you don't actually know the rules.

Like for example the rules that specifically state that an item that can be used by fewer people, say, only those of a specific class or alignment, or having a specific skill, cost less than the base price, not more.

Could you give some reference pages on those rules?

The rules for restrictions changing prices is all on DMG pg. 282, in the "Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Values" sidebar under the heading "Other considerations."

Now, those rules are widely considered to be fucking stupid and/or DM only, because for damn sure when Saldar the Neutral Good Wizard with 13 Ranks in Concentration wants to craft a Cloak of Charisma that only works for Neutral Good Wizards with 13 Ranks in Concentration, he doesn't get to have it cost 70% less.

But since the rules are very specific that restrictions make items cheaper, something like Spider only is exactly the kind of thing that makes the items sell for less when PCs find them.

As for the rules about the supply of magic items, that's on pg. 137, under Community Wealth and Population. Which says that they most likely have any item under their gp limit, and that they have enough to max out the value on any item set they have.

So literally, you can walk into any Small City with 12,000 people and buy 9,000,000gp worth of 8,000gp items (or 1125) or 9,000,000gp worth of 12,000gp items (or 750).

Which means that in a given small city, there are two thirds as many Darkvision (anyone) items as there are Darkvision (Spider) items. And so their increased price makes sense with their increased demand and decreased supply.

If you instead assume that regular Darkvision items cost less than Spider ones, you have to explain why there are more of them, and a greater demand for them, and they cost less.

Quote from: Kaelik;577406So literally, you can walk into any Small City with 12,000 people and buy 9,000,000gp worth of 8,000gp items (or 1125) or 9,000,000gp worth of 12,000gp items (or 750).

Which means that in a given small city, there are two thirds as many Darkvision (anyone) items as there are Darkvision (Spider) items. And so their increased price makes sense with their increased demand and decreased supply.

If you instead assume that regular Darkvision items cost less than Spider ones, you have to explain why there are more of them, and a greater demand for them, and they cost less.

So when you were bragging about your vast knowledge of economics, you forgot to mention it all came from the Dungeon Master's Guide and your own stupidity.

Quote from: StormBringer;577427So when you were bragging about your vast knowledge of economics, you forgot to mention it all came from the Dungeon Master's Guide and your own stupidity.

No dumbass. When I was pointing out that high school economics tells you that obviously something with the same demand has a higher price, and you were being an idiot and saying that you would pay twice as much for something half as useful, I knew that the supply of all items is equal, because I know the rules, and you were talking out of your ass, because you can't even manage to figure out the rules for making an item of darkvision while reading them.