TheRPGSite

For the folks who haven't been following along, the "By The Book..." thread was sidetracked by a discussion of how terrible 3E's CR system is. Specifically, Kaelik claimed:

Quote from: Kaelik;555102It is not the case, according to the book, that PCs need to know about the Demon in advance or parlay with him or die. A Party of 4 level 9 PCs is supposed to have a 100% chance of defeating a Bone Devil. 100%. But instead they will lose and die.

There was a brief back-and-forth, then he posted a sketch of an encounter where four tenth-level characters set out to explore an undead-infested former lich lair, and died to a single Bone Devil in a dungeon. There were some quibbles with his initial lack of detail, and Spike eventually mounted a series of serious challenges to Kaelik's scenario. Eventually, someone reduced it to "put up or shut up," and suggested running through the scenario a couple times to see what the actual outcome was. I volunteered to referee, and Kaelik and Spike each agreed, so this thread will hopefully act as thunderdome.

Because the idea is not to actually run a roleplaying game, it's to test the rules / mechanics of one in a specific circumstance, this thread is in the forum for talk about games.

---------------------------------
Okay, so with that out of the way, here's how I'm recommending this goes down:
 - I pick a dungeon map which is a reasonable floorplan for a lich's lair
 - Kaelik looks at the map and gives me a rough "day in the life" schedule of what he's doing , in which rooms throughout the day
 - Spike picks a time to start his dungeon excursion and goes on in, poking and prodding away
 - I provide a progressively more revealed map to Spike, and eventually (based on the time of day, etc) one will spot the other, and get to react accordingly.

I recommend that most of this stuff just goes behind spoiler tags, so it's easier for anyone following along. If Kaelik and Spike aren't happy with that, I'll track it via PMs and repost the results after.
I see two things that still need to be hashed out:
 - How do you want to handle rolls?
 - What rules are you using (exactly)?
 - What does "core" party mean? I like the idea of pulling the four that Kaelik listed from the relevant DMG (but then, I'm also lazy).

The major problem you have using the four sample characters from the DMG is that they use (IIRC) NPC cash, so would need re-equipping. Other than that, that sounds reasonable to me (not that I have any say in the matter).

As always in these theoreticals any re-building runs into problems with how much rebuilding/relevant prep is reasonable and what prepared spells they have will also modify the scenario. I'm not sure how you fairly adjudicate that - but good luck.

EDIT: fixed to remove tips since I probably shouldn't help either side.

Quote from: fectin;556214I see two things that still need to be hashed out:
 - How do you want to handle rolls?
 - What rules are you using (exactly)?
 - What does "core" party mean? I like the idea of pulling the four that Kaelik listed from the relevant DMG (but then, I'm also lazy).

Three!  Three things that need to be hashed out...  :)

Most people like the Invisble Castle (http://invisiblecastle.com/) for online games, either real-time or PbP.  It's always available, and it keeps track of your rolls for you.

Example:
   5d6 → [6,3,1,4,3] = (17) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3593730/)

Setting up an account provides a campaign name and additional notes on the rolls.

YOU are the DM choosing the map and all, fectin? Hardly neutral, IMO.

I'm down to stat up a four member vanilla party (nothing fancy, just a fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard... though I really do think Kaelik should do the wizard... for reasons explained).

Oh DM: How much cash should the pc's have for their magic goodies and what stat method do you prefer I use?

Quote from: StormBringer;556220Three!  Three things that need to be hashed out...  :)

Oops.

Quote from: Benoist;556221YOU are the DM choosing the map and all, fectin? Hardly neutral, IMO.

a) They each agreed.
b) I'm not deciding anything except the map, everything else is just applying the rules they select, and possibly arbitrating (not adjudicating) any disputes over how the rules work.
c) The specific map shouldn't make a lot of difference. My plan was to google around until I found a medium-size one that looked like an underground lab with spots for undead, or possibly go through my own disorganized piles.
d) Even if those points weren't true, Kaelik having argued in the past doesn't mean I'm going to sabotage him just for funsies. Suggesting that's a normal course of action says more about you than me.

Quote from: Spike;556223I'm down to stat up a four member vanilla party (nothing fancy, just a fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard... though I really do think Kaelik should do the wizard... for reasons explained).

Oh DM: How much cash should the pc's have for their magic goodies and what stat method do you prefer I use?

Hey, I said I'd referee, not run it. You and Kaelik need to agree what an average core party looks like. If it isn't the pregens though, I'd suggest using the elite array, 49k gold each (3.5 WBL) and remember that part of the setup was that the party doesn't expect to run into the Bone Devil (i.e. if you optimize for fighting Devils, you may not be proving much).

I usually expect that "10th level" actually means "enough xp to be at 10th level," so you can use that to power item creation feats. Again, depends on Kaelik's concurrance that that's still "average core". You may want to avoid custom items though, if just to avoid arguments on them.

Well, I've established that I'm down with being sub-optimal, given that the bone devil is hardly the terrific threat that Kaelik made it out to be.

I can certainly make sure the party is optimized for an undead lair.

Quote from: fectin;556232Oops.

Just giving you the Spanish Inquisition.  :)

Hey, count me in for an arbiter, if needed.  I would like to see this thing through.

Also, a couple of suggestions:
Min, avg, and max hit points for the Bone Devil on three different trials.
Similarly, weak, avg and strong party.  Do the combinations and see what shakes out.

Somebody summon Windjammer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;556281Somebody summon Windjammer.

Anál nathrach,
orth' bhais's bethad,
do che'l de'nmha

Quote from: StormBringer;556282Anál nathrach,
orth' bhais's bethad,
do che'l de'nmha

:)

I think you have to assume for the test that the PCs have consulted a sage and know there is a devil in the tombs.

This was something that Spike said he would do in a real game and that would explain the meta-knowledge of the party.
It also gives the party a chance to select appropriate spells.

Now I think you have to allow the 3e expedition to pick items (through magic marts) and spells in the 3e way which is to say selection and not random. You woudl need a methodology in terms of available cash/xp to spend on kit. I doubt the GD Posse will object as they have always supported that methodology on threads about limiting Wizards v Fighters. The forum should have the right to see the builds to keep them honest.

Now this will put the party at the top end of the power track. They know there is a devil and they they have had some Prep. To weigh it the other way I think it would be acceptable for Fectin to switch out the Bone Devil for another CR9 devil/demon on the basis that the Sage is unlikely to have have seen the creature and so is going on Hearsay. I say this because the Bone Devil was only ever one of a range of CR9 creatures that Kaelik claimed would toast a 10th level party. The unknownness should keep the party from coming in too laser focused and keep the test at least to some part impartial.

We have to remember that this is a in situ test and not an arena duel so to set the context to be one of a "dungeon" Fectin has the right to run it like a dungeon. He can spook the party with false encounters, he can chuck in environmental elements that could theoretically split the party is they run stupid. However, as its a test he can't arbitarily kill them with a Grimtooth trap, so sealing them in a room and flooding it with Green dragon breath is out as is dropping the ceiling on them with no warning.

Seem fair ?

Hey, I'm not up for a solo game of online D&D here... I have other hobbies to see too.

Beside, if that was the case, I'd probably geek my own rogue and replace him with something more fun...

In a quarter-century of D&D I've never done anything but dice for PCs, so I'm guessing the elite array mentioned is: 15/14/13/12/10/8?  It seems low for PCs, but I'll allow it's fair.   I'll have four posted tonight, complete with unnecessary back story... because I can.

Fighter 9d10 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594010/)
Cleric 9d8 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594011/)
Wizard 9d4 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594012/)
Rogue 9d6 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594013/)

Quote from: Spike;556317In a quarter-century of D&D I've never done anything but dice for PCs, so I'm guessing the elite array mentioned is: 15/14/13/12/10/8?  It seems low for PCs, but I'll allow it's fair.   I'll have four posted tonight, complete with unnecessary back story... because I can.

Fighter 9d10 roll for hp (http://http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594010/)
Cleric 9d8 roll for hp (http://http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594011/)
Wizard 9d4 roll for hp (http://http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594012/)
Rogue 9d6 roll for hp (http://http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594013/)

:) all in favour of unnecessary backstory.
would be hysterical if he party fail because the rogue has been sleeping with the fighter's wife though and they start arguing and get into a scrap half way down a dark corridor :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;556294:)

I think you have to assume for the test that the PCs have consulted a sage and know there is a devil in the tombs.

I disagree with this. While I have seen parties do this at times, I've seen a great many not do this, for any number of reasons (no time, think it's unnecessary, place protected, etc.).

Yeah, even if they knew there was a devil, they'd also know there's a ton of undead...for every devil-specific item/spell, they should have at least two that are undead-specific.

Quote from: Bobloblah;556361I disagree with this. While I have seen parties do this at times, I've seen a great many not do this, for any number of reasons (no time, think it's unnecessary, place protected, etc.).

I know but Spike said he would have and it gives a backstory in character reason why they can expect the Devil they know is there.

Otherwise you have this daft position of only allowing them to devote an arbitary 1/3 of their resources to the enemy they know is coming.

Prefer to put it out in the open and if the moster is as tough as Kaelik says then it will be able to win despite the prep and we have a watertight case for the Devil.

And liek Brendan and I said running the scenario a coupel of tiems with different participants is valid so if the party win on round 1 due to one particular hyper item, helm of brilliance/cube of force, then we can exclude that from the next run through.

Quote from: Spike;556317In a quarter-century of D&D I've never done anything but dice for PCs, so I'm guessing the elite array mentioned is: 15/14/13/12/10/8?  It seems low for PCs, but I'll allow it's fair.   I'll have four posted tonight, complete with unnecessary back story... because I can.

Fighter 9d10 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594010/)
Cleric 9d8 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594011/)
Wizard 9d4 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594012/)
Rogue 9d6 roll for hp (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3594013/)

You got double HTTPs in your quotes, fixed 'em.

Quote from: jibbajibba;556384I know but Spike said he would have and it gives a backstory in character reason why they can expect the Devil they know is there.

I said they'd prepare knowing that it was a lich's lair, not for a devil specifically.

To be honest, I'm not really trying to hard to optimize them for devils or even  undead per se, I'm trying to build somewhat realistic 10th level characters that have a 'closet troll' DM, which, of course, means aware.  I'm a bit upset with the magic items, as it is obvious that I'm buying toys on a budget rather than collecting them more organically, but c'est la vie.  

If it weren't for the fact that they apparently JUST hit 10th level, I'd be doing some permanency spells for the party, but then I'm illegally spending xp, so no-go.   I just have a few last details to hammer out, and I should have them posted within the hour or so (had to BBQ up a steak. Mandatory today.)

I think that makes much more sense. I also think that Kaelik was specifically talking about a party that wasn't tooled up to fight a Demon/Devil; that was part of his point. You kit them out to do so and it renders the exercise rather meaningless.

Quote from: Spike;556415I said they'd prepare knowing that it was a lich's lair, not for a devil specifically.

To be honest, I'm not really trying to hard to optimize them for devils or even  undead per se, I'm trying to build somewhat realistic 10th level characters that have a 'closet troll' DM, which, of course, means aware.  I'm a bit upset with the magic items, as it is obvious that I'm buying toys on a budget rather than collecting them more organically, but c'est la vie.  

If it weren't for the fact that they apparently JUST hit 10th level, I'd be doing some permanency spells for the party, but then I'm illegally spending xp, so no-go.   I just have a few last details to hammer out, and I should have them posted within the hour or so (had to BBQ up a steak. Mandatory today.)

Absolutely the right way to approach it.

I would suggest rolling magic items randomly but it might take an age.

You could roll 55 random magic items - 1 for 1st level, 2 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd etc
then divide them across the group. The problem however might be that those rolls really dictate your success. Roll a vorpal sword, great , roll a cube of force, great, roll a cursed sword -2 boo hoo (do those exist in 3x?) ... and that really makes the case for characters being too reliant on kit and the whim of the DM.

I think it would be an interesting exercise to generate a random 'magic' parcel and see how it compares to the 'average parcel'.

To be honest I am not sure how the magic economy in 3x works having rejected the game very early because I thought it relied too much on system mastery.

It's not a realistic 3/3.5 game with straight up class levels, no prestige classes or multiclassing by level 9.  These characters shouldn't necessarily be CharOp board optimized, but so few people plan their characters out as single-classed that it isn't a realistic example of actual play in this edition.  I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a single-class character at the table at this level excepting casters that are shooting for one of the PrC that require high-level spell access as a prereq.   The plethora of classes, prestige classes, is so baked into D&D 3/3.5 that it shouldn't be ignored here.

As for selecting gear for characters starting higher than first level, there are rules for this in the DMG.  Page 199 of the 3.5 DMG is the section in question.  The chart for overall wealth by level is on page 135.  9th level characters have 36,000gp.  Characters with Magic Item Creation Feats can spend their XP to have created magic items as well (presumably reducing them to below 9th level without reducing their wealth per level down a notch).

I disagree that any foreknowledge should play into the scenario as well.  From my own experience there is almost never any information available about encounters in a given adventure/dungeon other than the big bad itself.

Quote from: Bobloblah;556423I think that makes much more sense. I also think that Kaelik was specifically talking about a party that wasn't tooled up to fight a Demon/Devil; that was part of his point. You kit them out to do so and it renders the exercise rather meaningless.

But he did go one to expound on how awesome the deveil was anyway. I think that Spike has the right approach but would be happy to see a team of devil slayers take the stand, provided they didn't have an Arrow of Slaying Bone Devils of course.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;556426It's not a realistic 3/3.5 game with straight up class levels, no prestige classes or multiclassing by level 9.  These characters shouldn't necessarily be CharOp board optimized, but so few people plan their characters out as single-classed that it isn't a realistic example of actual play in this edition.  I'm not sure I've ever actually seen a single-class character at the table at this level excepting casters that are shooting for one of the PrC that require high-level spell access as a prereq.   The plethora of classes, prestige classes, is so baked into D&D 3/3.5 that it shouldn't be ignored here.

The trouble is that I'm pretty sure Kaelik agrees with you on this, but that wasn't his assertion: he was talking about CR and how it relates to Core, non-optimised characters.

Quote from: jibbajibba;556427But he did go one to expound on how awesome the deveil was anyway. I think that Spike has the right approach but would be happy to see a team of devil slayers take the stand, provided they didn't have an Arrow of Slaying Bone Devils of course.

I get what you're saying, and I think we're mostly on the same page. I just think that kitting someone out for the specific task proves nothing. That's not what CR was supposed to represent, regardless of whether or not you think it was broken (and I do - particularly at higher levels - but that's less about CR than it is about the whole game).

Even the scenario described isn't necessarily all that representative. Yes, it could work out this way, but it still seems to be assuming all factors are in the Devil's favour.

Dag Hammerskojld:

Half Orc, Fighter 10, CG, worships Pelor (Mechanically unimportant for this contest)

Stats: STR 19 (23), Dex 10 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 6
HP 73   AC: 21    Attack: +16/+11  Saves: 9/4/8
Weapon: +1 Holy Heavy Flail (+22/+17 d10+10 (+2d6), 17-20/x2)
Armor: +3 Full Plate
Misc Magic: Belt of Ogre Str (+4), Cloak of Resistance (+1), 3 potions cure moderate, 1 potion silversheen,
Misc other: Random mundane equipment

Feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical, Blind Fight, Iron Will, Leadership (5th level paladin guarding the mules outside...)

Skills: Climb 10 , Ride 4, Intimidate 10, Swim 4 (raw, don't expect they'll be used)

Dag was born to a human mother in a mixed orc/half-orc semi-nomadic tribe that wandered the arid lands to the east of wherever. The harsh sun was placated by the tribe in primative rituals, but they still lost animals and people, including Dag's mother.  Fascinated by the cities they could often see in the distance, Dag left the tribe and found work as a sword-for-hire, a process that brought him quickly into adventuring.  Having linked up with a priest of Pelor, who taught him better ways to venerate the Sun, Dag now is a very enthusiastic follower of the Sun-lord, and wants nothing more than to serve him in the afterlife kicking all kinds of monster butt.  He loves the heavy flail the church granted him because it allows him to kick even more monster butt... but more importantly, he feels the golden glow of it makes him look even more heroic.  His full plate was once shiny and new, but is now heavily battered and fire-blackened, which he views with great pride, for he's survived the 'gaze of the Sun' a few too many times... though what he means by that is anyone's guess.  Motivation: Glory.

Jurgen Hammerskoljd: Human, Cleric 10 of Pelor, NG
Str: 10, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 13
HP 76   AC 22   Attack: +7/+2  Saves: 9/2/10
Weapon: Hvy Mace +1 (+8/+3 D8+1/x2)
Armor: +2 Full Plate, +2 Light Shield
Misc Magic: Circlet of Blasting, Minor (3d8/6d6 ranged touch 1/day), Goggles of Night, Medallion of Thoughts, 2 vials of silversheen,
Misc Other: Gold holy symbol, back up holy symbol (wood).  Holy water vials (4).  Holy scripture, Tabard, misc adventuring gear.
Feats: Improved Init. Spell Penetration,  Spell Focus:Conjuration, Augment Summon, Quicken Spell
Skills: Concentration 13 (15), Diplomacy 10 (11), Know:Religion 10 (11), Spellcraft 8(9)
Domains: Healing, Travel
Spells:  
0- Create water, Detect Magic (3), Guidance, Read Magic
1- (Cure Light), Detect Evil (2), Bless (2)
2- (Cure Moderate) Align Weapon, Conscrate, Spiritual Weapon, Summon II
3- (Fly) Summon III, Searing Light, Dispell Magic
4- (Dimension Door) Dismissal, Death Ward, Restoration
5- (Cure Light, Mass) Summon V, True Seeing

(note: Had this been a real game, I might have gone with Gond, Planning Domain and (thus) Heroes Feast as a 5th level domain spell....)

Jurgen was the third son of a minor noble, and thus entered the church at a young age. Luckily, he found the scholarly life far more to his liking than the life of a squire might have been, and he prospered. Once he was Ordained, he deliberately chose a mission to the Nomads of the East, looking for the tribe that had murdered his mother when he was a babe.  What he found was a far more complex story of betrayal, escape, love and tragedy and all that other good shit. He also found he had a savage half brother, whom he eventually tracked to the nearby cities. WIthout revealing their shared blood, he befriended the hulking brute and found he enjoyed smiting evil with a good team of professional adventurers. WHile his half-brother's enthusiasm for slaughter and general lack of civilized education dismay's him, he does care for 'the lad', and has eagerly inducted him into the faith.
Jurgen is a slender, slightly weedy, pale young man who is rarely without his polished and inlaid armor and sun-shaped shied and mace. He has an excellent singing voice. Motivation: Faith, Family.

Ambrose the Awesome, CN, Human Wizard, follower of Amen-bro-thep.
Str 8 Dex 13 Con 14(16), Int 17(19), Wis 12 Cha 10
HP 60 AC 14  BaB: +4 Saves: 7/4/8
Weapons: none
Armor: Light coat of baby oil.  
Misc Magic: Amulet of Health, 1 bead of force, toga (cloak) of displacement, sweatband of Intellect, Potion of cure moderate (2)
Feats: Greater Spell Penetration, Extend Spell, Combat Casting, Spell Mastery Familiar (rat), Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell
Skills: Concentration 13 (16/20), Spellcraft 13 (17), Profession: Bro 13 (14), Decipher Script 13 (17), Knowledge: Arcana 6 (10)
Spells: 0- don't actually care: Mage hand 3 Disrupt undead 3
1- Ray of Enfeeblement (2), Feather Fall, Magic Missile
2- Darkvision, Knock, False Life, Mirror Image
3- Fly, Blink, Fireball
4- Invis-Greater, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles
5- Extended Stoneskin, Prying Eyes

No one at the mage academy thought Ambrose would graduate, for he was far too interested in booze and chicks to study.  At best they figured he'd wash out, at worst he'd blow himself up. Surprisingly, neither happened.  Ambrose is particularly obnoxious, almost always has booze on him somewhere, and will hit on anything remotely humanoid and female, friendly or not. He's been kicked out of several adventuring groups, and more than one has tried to murder him.  Since the Hammerskojld Boys have lost a couple of mages along the way, they're willing to tolerate his boorish behavior... though they wish he'd put some damn clothes on!   Ambrose worships a mysterious deity, the Ultimate Brah, and he plans on getting powerful enough to one day steal a divine spark from Azathoth so he can party with Amenbrothep for the rest of eternity. Motivations: Brah!

Gareth Three-Fingers, the Fifth: Dwarven Rogue 10, CN, Worships Filthy Lucre
Str 12 Dex 17 (19), Con 15 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 6
HP 57 AC 18 (19) BaB 8/3 or 12/6 (ranged)  Saves: 5/11/5 Init:+8
Weapon: Heavy Crossbow +1 (+13, d10+1, 19-20/x2
Armor: +2 Mithril Shirt of Shadow/Silent Moves (+5 each)
Misc Magic: Gloves of Dex+2, Iron Bands of Bilaro,
Misc Other: Thieves tools, various dungeon crawling gear (piton, rope, crowbar, chalk etc). Ten Each Cold Iron, Alchemical crossbow bolts. 5 Adamantium Crossbow bolts
Feats: Alertness, Improved Init, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Crippling Strike, Evasion, Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak Attack +5d6
Skills:  Hide 13 (22) Move Silent 13 (22) Listen 13 (15) Spot 13 (15) Search 13 (13), Open Locks 13 (17) Disable Device 13 (15) Appraisal 13 (15) Tumble 13 (17) Use Magic Device 13 (11)

Gareth comes from a big clan of dwarven outcasts (all thieves) who follow a strange code of honor, adopting the name and duties of fallen kin. Thus "Gareth Three-Fingers the Fifth" is actually some other Dwarf who is the fourth replacement for a dwarf named Gareth Three-Fingers. He has inherited his progenitors favorite heavy crossbow, and like all the previous Gareths, he has an overwhelming love of gold and a crappy attitude. He's a decent enough thief for all that, but he has an unfortunate tendency to be more aggressive to harmless townspeople and landscaping construction than towards monsters. The Gareth Three-Fingers that proceeded him were all very aggressive, and 'The Fifth' is determined to survive, so he is far more cautious than his peers were.  Motivation: Family Honor and Filthy Lucre.



Note: Everything came from core (actually, the SRD), and I played it simple with equipment and skills, even shorted myself bonus spells, so fuck you.  Presumably Ambrose has more spells than listed, I just put the memorized ones in.  Likewise, Jurgen will happily use Augery and Divination days before entering a dungeon to avoid nasty shocks, then pray for the list above or one like it, depending on what's in store. I was tempted, just for the hell of it, to pool character wealth to buy an Apparatus of Kwalish, but I figured that would be rude.  Likewise, there are at least four pack mules and some hirelings, led by the fifth level cohort waiting outside the dungeon.

Party uses the 20 turn (3 1/2 hour) timer on Ambrose's Stoneskin for 'daily duties', planning to be in and out of undead lairs long before the sun goes down. Likewise, Ambrose's Rat will talk to dungeon-native rats for clues to what lies ahead (plus the ten hour flying eyeball spell).  Jurgen will use his detect thoughts medallion to check rooms and corners, and alternating with detect evil (or detect undead, which he should have as his bonus spell) if a room/corridor seems oddly empty.

Gareth wil remain sneaky whenever possible and is responsible for door checking (traps, listening and locks... in that order).

Note that this party does not need a light source. Ambrose can darkvision himself if necessary, and will probably be helped along by the other party members as necessary (they are all slow buggers compared to the naked guy, so that's hardly an issue).

As an aside: For remarkably 'deep' dungeons with good choke points/linear design, the support 'party' would follow the PC' to set camp at the 'end' of the duty day.

Feel free to check my math. Four 10th characters in a blitz from the SRD is prone to glitches, bitches.


EDIT::: seven minutes late! I fail at life....

On PrC: As a Rogue I don't honestly see the point much, as the class abilities really do stack well, and many rogue PrC's seemed weaker (except assassin, but a lot of GM/players won't allow that...).

As a Fighter (my preferred class), I do tend towards two weapon fighting, which makes Tempest a must, but that's a tiny class (5 levels), and anything beyond that is for fun (I've done tempest/templar before. Loads of fun!), but some of it is personal.

Its the spell casters who seem to get the most out of PrC's in my opinion, since the core 'strength' of their class is 'spell casting' and most caster PrC's keep full Spell casting but add tasty class abilities.

But honestly, I really just wanted to keep this simple core.  I'll admit to some dissatisfaction with spell lists, but I usually play fighters, and my caster experience grew the list organically around what the GM threw at us (and we used the Spell Compendium, so I had a LOT more options. Aura/summon cleric was brutal and very safe!).  

Tl;dr: I don't think PrC's measurably alter the Thunderdome. I could get wider 'swing' just by using a different mix of core classes (swapping a barbarian for a fighter, a sorcerer for a wizard and so forth. In a low/no-trap environment, a Ranger instead of a Rogue works well... greater HP/Dmg, plus pet and spells...)

Looks pretty reasonable to me, for what that's worth. As long as you and Kaelik can agree that it's good, I really don't care though. (That's actually the reason I suggested the elite array: no-one ever thinks it's too much).

Likewise, if you and he agree that "10th level" means halfway to the next level and full of tasty xp for crafting/contingencies/permenancies, I have no objection. When I said it, I meant to remind you it was an option, not remove n option from you.

Here are some thoughts:
Which of the magic items glow? That's normally about as important as what color they are, but you two spent a while arguing over who saw who, when. IMHO, if you're choosing them, you get to choose whether they glow.

I don't see any reason you wouldn't get those bonus spells. You've got 19 INT, that gives you bonuses of 0/1/1/1/1/0 for total spells at levels 0-5 of 4/5/5/4/4/2. Cleric has 17 WIS, and should end up with 4/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1.

You might consider using prying eyes the night before, and prepping something else day-of. If you do that, you'll learn that it gets dark fairly quickly inside, and that the ceiling isn't very high.

One of wizards' strengths normally is that they can cart around a bunch of scrolls of spells that you nearly never need. That's also true for clerics, but less so. Generally, I'd suggest carrying scrolls of e.g. Knock instead of memorizing it, because it's so situational.

I assume you have the component for True Seeing (it's $250), but you may want to list it explicitly. Same thing for Stoneskin.

If you're just using fly as "Immunity to Dire Bears," levitate fills that role too, and is a level lower.

You may want to reevaluate including Glitterdust in your lineup. It's a 2nd level AoE will save against blindness, which incidentally reveals invisible things. Similarly, Solid Fog doesn't have a save and locks down a whole area. Either is pretty awesome against zombie hordes.

Hit points are much higher in 3E than in previous editions, so fireball is much less good. Zombies and other undead double down on that by having even higher HP. However, Major Image is very nearly an auto-win against mindless undead, and no slouch against everything else either. I suspect that Kaelik will object if you just skybox opponents (I know I would), but it's still great.

As an aside, Frank's list of "Spells That Fvcking Kill People" is a good resource for casters: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962

It looks like you're saying the whole party gets stoneskinned, but that only affects one target. Not sure if that changes your tactics any.

Since you've selected Dismissal: how do you all think that works for targeting invisible creatures? per the SRD, "You must be able to see or touch the target", but people frequently play that you can select a square to hit anything invisible in it.

On which note: I still don't know which rules this is happening under. Pure SRD? SRD + swift actions? Etc?

Actually, I tossed a three plus hour stoneskin in as a hidden fuck you against Kaelik's weird assertion that the only Mage Buff was Mage Armor (which I didn't even take!).

Its meant to keep the theoretically squishy mage safe against closet trolls, but yes, I get that the spell list is a bit crap. The eyes have a massive duration (10 hours I believe), which brings in odd questions of casting, resting and using the remaining time on the eyes to scout around.  Finding out it's too dark for them would be (possibly) part of the whole scry/divination/augery process... though it also leads to synergy questions, which lie entirely beyond the scope of Thunderdome. I'll revise the spells a bit when I get to work in the morning. Its midnight here so I'm off to bed.

Also: Fly is actually on there so the melee guy gets to play whack-a-mole with flying opponents. I'm half tempted to drop some of his stuff for a cape of the mountbank (which proved very useful in a campaign... loot I had taken as a 'well, I guess if no one else wants it, I got an open back slot...).  I honestly expected to have more movement stuff... but I think, aside from some tweaks, that the gruesome foursome have some synergistic possibilities.

Edit: Damnit, I forgot the glowy bit.  For amusement I tossed in the glowing holy weapon, normally I never want glowy items. I'm assuming they make him toss a bag over the head of the flail when they're snooping around (with two guys in full plate...).

And for flavor: Gareth Three-Fingers the Fifth, ironically, has all his fingers but a peg leg and one eye. No mechanical changes. He is just that sneaky on that damn peg leg. Its heroic, see?

THird Edit? Geeze!: Notice that I deliberately skipped my bonus spells. The point isn't to be super optimal, its to be sorta averaged. If an average joe party can win more than they lose against assassin-demon (or whatever other CR9 threat kaelik wants), then obviously the myth is busted!

QuoteAs an aside, Frank's list of "Spells That Fvcking Kill People" is a good resource for casters: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962

If you were allowing Dragonlance 3E then Mindspin is even more fun than Weird.

Quote from: Spike;556528Actually, I tossed a three plus hour stoneskin in as a hidden fuck you against Kaelik's weird assertion that the only Mage Buff was Mage Armor (which I didn't even take!).

Its meant to keep the theoretically squishy mage safe against closet trolls, but yes, I get that the spell list is a bit crap. The eyes have a massive duration (10 hours I believe), which brings in odd questions of casting, resting and using the remaining time on the eyes to scout around.  Finding out it's too dark for them would be (possibly) part of the whole scry/divination/augery process... though it also leads to synergy questions, which lie entirely beyond the scope of Thunderdome. I'll revise the spells a bit when I get to work in the morning. Its midnight here so I'm off to bed.

Also: Fly is actually on there so the melee guy gets to play whack-a-mole with flying opponents. I'm half tempted to drop some of his stuff for a cape of the mountbank (which proved very useful in a campaign... loot I had taken as a 'well, I guess if no one else wants it, I got an open back slot...).  I honestly expected to have more movement stuff... but I think, aside from some tweaks, that the gruesome foursome have some synergistic possibilities.

Edit: Damnit, I forgot the glowy bit.  For amusement I tossed in the glowing holy weapon, normally I never want glowy items. I'm assuming they make him toss a bag over the head of the flail when they're snooping around (with two guys in full plate...).

And for flavor: Gareth Three-Fingers the Fifth, ironically, has all his fingers but a peg leg and one eye. No mechanical changes. He is just that sneaky on that damn peg leg. Its heroic, see?

THird Edit? Geeze!: Notice that I deliberately skipped my bonus spells. The point isn't to be super optimal, its to be sorta averaged. If an average joe party can win more than they lose against assassin-demon (or whatever other CR9 threat kaelik wants), then obviously the myth is busted!

Great stuff both you and Fectin.

I much prefer to see a set of rules tested like this than I do seeing people get all pissy and trying to bitchslap each other down an ethernet cable.

I will get the popcorn ready :0

Just a heads up: Kaelik implied that he had a bunch of stuff going on, back in the other thread. We may need to wait a couple days.

Quote from: Spike;556480On PrC: As a Rogue I don't honestly see the point much, as the class abilities really do stack well, and many rogue PrC's seemed weaker (except assassin, but a lot of GM/players won't allow that...).

As a Fighter (my preferred class), I do tend towards two weapon fighting, which makes Tempest a must, but that's a tiny class (5 levels), and anything beyond that is for fun (I've done tempest/templar before. Loads of fun!), but some of it is personal.

Well, even excluding prestige classes a more realistic 'rogue' build would be something like Ranger 2/Rogue 8 for someone shooting for high level rogue abilities.  Not that there aren't rogue oriented PrC that get Sneak Attack, the number one reason most players would be compelled to stick with the class.

A Fighter/Tempest would be a more realistic, non-optimized build, since two-weapon fighting is non-optimal in this edition.  It's still something people play anyway though.

Quote from: Spike;556480Its the spell casters who seem to get the most out of PrC's in my opinion, since the core 'strength' of their class is 'spell casting' and most caster PrC's keep full Spell casting but add tasty class abilities.

There are several PrC in the same book as the Tempest PrC that both continue spellcasting ability and rogue abilities for multiclassed rogue/casters.  One of the most popular rogue PrCs in the game, Shadowbane Stalker for multiclassed Cleric/Rogues is one of them, although probably too 'optimized' for the encounter in question.

All that aside people take levels of other classes for the purpose of shoring up weaknesses in their primary class, like low HP or bad saves.

Quote from: Spike;556480Tl;dr: I don't think PrC's measurably alter the Thunderdome. I could get wider 'swing' just by using a different mix of core classes (swapping a barbarian for a fighter, a sorcerer for a wizard and so forth. In a low/no-trap environment, a Ranger instead of a Rogue works well... greater HP/Dmg, plus pet and spells...)

My whole point is, it would be unusual for that Fighter to not have say 2-5 levels of Barbarian, even when ignoring PrC or splatbook stuff (which I don't personally think you should as I've never been at a table where most books were banned. No psionics, no Bo9S, and other more exotic stuff with new subsystems for the DM to learn, sure, banned.  No Complete X series though?  Never seen it happen at the actual gaming table).  

The thing is, you shouldn't be so invested in debunking Kaelik (sp?).  If this Bone Devil wipes your party 3 times out of 4, the argument is still up in the air because the scenario being created isn't one that actually happens at the table.  Likewise with ignoring bonus spells.  This is something that no player would actually do.  You should design the characters as if you were actually going to play them, even if only using 'Core' options.

I thought the whole purpose of this brouhaha was to take things out of the realm of theorycraft into the realm of actual play, and I don't think that is what is happening ITT, since the characters are still basically theorycrafted ones that wouldn't be seeing actual play in the first place.

10th level thief without a magical melee weapon?  Never.Gonna.Happen.Ever.

Quote from: fectin;556611Just a heads up: Kaelik implied that he had a bunch of stuff going on, back in the other thread. We may need to wait a couple days.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/159/325/1262055260350.jpg?1312789163)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;556641(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/159/325/1262055260350.jpg?1312789163)

Funny...that's how I feel waiting for Legends and Labyrinths.

Quote from: CRKrueger;55662610th level thief without a magical melee weapon?  Never.Gonna.Happen.Ever.

You never saw a ranged SA thief before? I admit they are a bit weird and probably sub-optimal at the best of times.  Fine. Skip KOtD references and I'll turn him back into a morning star wielding whack-a-mole. . Geeze, next you'll tell me I should make him a hobbit or somefing.

Part of the point is that a core, simple party of non-charOp pc can hold their own.  Yes, a few levels of Barbarian would spice up Dag (as in Dag, Nab it!... the command word for the Iron Bands of Bilaro, btw) quite a bit, both in general and in specific to an ambush GM, but then we're getting all optimized. He's a little squishier than I like for a high level fighter, but I'd still take even odds for him on a solo melee(simple) match against the BD... though that is unfair to the BD due to innate abilities being ignored in a case like that.  Also: I'm one guy working out of the SRD around work. Hell, I'm not even sure I can find the two bonuses for the domains online ( do have a massive collection of PDF gamebooks, but oddly the D&D files seem to be missing...)

The general lack of scrolls, potions and random wands is an unfortunate artifact of making the party at level 10. In a real game the GM would probably be tossing off stuff in loot that would accumulate (last party I was in had three wands and a staff of healing around level ten as 'junk loot'. Among other things...). Since I'm not actually taking them into a series of dungeons, a large collection of emergency back-up utility spells was more work than I cared to do.  I put off watching Firefly for this, man! I care!  ;)

This is why this exercise won't actually prove anything despite how fascinating it is to watch.  Far better than dickwaving at least.  But the problem is theorycraft is in a perfect vacuum, real games and characters are organic and far more than dice rolls for spells and items and WBL.

Real characters would take dimensional anchor scrolls when potentially fighting a teleporting lich and ethereal undead or... anything that teleports.

Greater Teleport on a monster was never a big deal for my 3E groups.

I've got dimensional anchor, just not on a scroll.

Quote from: Spike;556678I've got dimensional anchor, just not on a scroll.

Small suggestion if you have any inkling of what you're fighting that should be a memorized spell.  Scouting ahead for the overall strategy is the wizard's primary job. Let the Fighter do the tactics.

Quote from: fectin;556527As an aside, Frank's list of "Spells That Fvcking Kill People" is a good resource for casters: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962

It looks like you're saying the whole party gets stoneskinned, but that only affects one target. Not sure if that changes your tactics any.

If you strip that list down to PHB only, and imagine you are fighting undead, that list is a hell of a lot smaller. And no, only one Stoneskin'd character.

QuoteSince you've selected Dismissal: how do you all think that works for targeting invisible creatures? per the SRD, "You must be able to see or touch the target", but people frequently play that you can select a square to hit anything invisible in it.

The Bone Devil, like many critters that aren't famously invisible, only has ordinary invisibility, which means it fails when you attack. I imagine that if the BD just sits there quietly as the party goes by, then the cleric will happily not dismiss it, preferring to keep that for some other outsider threat elsewhere in the dungeon.

QuoteOn which note: I still don't know which rules this is happening under. Pure SRD? SRD + swift actions? Etc?

I fail to understand the question. I'm using the pure core book (PHB/DMG) via the SRD to make characters.  I imagine I'll keep using the SRD to ensure I don't do anything remotely shady with the rules and vice versa.  I don't imagine this would be terribly valid if we didn't use the rules as written. And yes, I may just be a legalistic asshole. :D

Quote from: Marleycat;556691Small suggestion if you have any inkling of what you're fighting that should be a memorized spell.  Scouting ahead for the overall strategy is the wizard's primary job. Let the Fighter do the tactics.

that's what I mean: Dimensional anchor is on the spell list.


Edit: Crap, no its not. How odd, I could have sworn I put it on there!  Maybe I avoided it since kaelik made such a big deal out of using teleport to escape?

Updated 'deeper' spell list (minor changes only, added bonus spells for stats)
Domain Powers: Freedom of movement up to 10 rounds/day, +1 caster level on healing spells
Spells:
0- Create water, Detect Magic (3), Guidance, Read Magic
1- (Cure Light), Detect Evil (2), Bless (2)
2- (Cure Moderate) Align Weapon, Conscrate, Spiritual Weapon, Summon II, Remove Paralysis
3- (Fly) Summon III (2), Searing Light, Dispell Magic
4- (Dimension Door) Dismissal, Death Ward, Restoration
5- (Cure Light, Mass) Summon V, True Seeing

1- Ray of Enfeeblement (2), Feather Fall, Magic Missile Mage Armor
2- Darkvision, Knock, False Life, Mirror Image, Glitterdust
3- Fly, Blink, Fireball, Halt Undead
4- Invis-Greater, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor
5- Extended Stoneskin, Hold Monster


The addition of mage armor means that the mage should have no bracers and 9k in miscellanious adventurint scrolls/wands... or a bigger amulet or headband... or, or, or...

Wands and scrolls are your friends it hasn't changed.:D

Seriously, think about spells you want to use always, they go on wands. Then you go with "corner cases" those are your scrolls, simples.:)

A good magic user arcane or divine either ends the fight or is able to change the terrain/strategy before physical AC is a real factor.

I may not like 4e but it does clarify your purpose and gives you training wheels to make sure you don't fuck up.

Quote from: Bobloblah;556646Funny...that's how I feel waiting for Legends and Labyrinths.

You and me both.

I've contacted a third round of illustrators for the pieces that need to be part of the book to fulfill backer rewards. If these fall through, I'll be contacting the pertinent backers to see about refunding the money they paid for customized illustrations to be part of the book and pushing ahead.

Ironically, all the other art for the book came back just fine. But the first two guys I contracted for the pieces I actually need, legally speaking, have flaked out sequentially. Now I'm trying several at once and if at least some of them come back, we'll be good to go.

Quote from: Marleycat;556664This is why this exercise won't actually prove anything despite how fascinating it is to watch.  Far better than dickwaving at least.  But the problem is theorycraft is in a perfect vacuum, real games and characters are organic and far more than dice rolls for spells and items and WBL.

This, BTW, is why I specifically reached out to various communities to get actual character sheets for PCs that had been leveled up through actual play in order to playtest L&L's monster creation system and the like.

I'd offer up some of them here, but there's a lot of multiclassing, a lot of PrCs, and a lot of non-core stuff.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;556708You and me both.

I've contacted a third round of illustrators for the pieces that need to be part of the book to fulfill backer rewards. If these fall through, I'll be contacting the pertinent backers to see about refunding the money they paid for customized illustrations to be part of the book and pushing ahead.

Ironically, all the other art for the book came back just fine. But the first two guys I contracted for the pieces I actually need, legally speaking, have flaked out sequentially. Now I'm trying several at once and if at least some of them come back, we'll be good to go.



This, BTW, is why I specifically reached out to various communities to get actual character sheets for PCs that had been leveled up through actual play in order to playtest L&L's monster creation system and the like.

I'd offer up some of them here, but there's a lot of multiclassing, a lot of PrCs, and a lot of non-core stuff.

Well, in that case I am interested.  Sue me I never clicked on your link I just thought you only blogged.

What game engine is the base? I'm lazy I'd rather you explain your game than me trying to parse it since your here.:)

God, I have horrible grammar and punctuation I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. At least I won't be banned for it. But I do apologize Justin.

Quote from: Spike;556528And for flavor: Gareth Three-Fingers the Fifth, ironically, has all his fingers but a peg leg and one eye. No mechanical changes. He is just that sneaky on that damn peg leg. Its heroic, see?

Good stuff. The 'Ninjas, Pirates and Dinosaurs' issue of Dragon magazine had a bunch of "Pirate Grafts" including stuff like Peglegs of Dancing and magical hooks and the like. Great bit of justification for why pirates often were missing bits, despite Regenerate being easily available in 3.5, though sadly non-core. I'm quite fond of the idea of using the Fiend Folio weapon graft rules to replace a hand with a waraxe as well.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;556742Good stuff. The 'Ninjas, Pirates and Dinosaurs' issue of Dragon magazine had a bunch of "Pirate Grafts" including stuff like Peglegs of Dancing and magical hooks and the like. Great bit of justification for why pirates often were missing bits, despite Regenerate being easily available in 3.5, though sadly non-core. I'm quite fond of the idea of using the Fiend Folio weapon graft rules to replace a hand with a waraxe as well.

You watch way too much Evil Dead, yup!:D

Gah, a 3.x CharOp Thread!

Stab IT! Stab! STAB! Stabbity! STAB!!!

Quote from: jadrax;556778Gah, a 3.x CharOp Thread!

Stab IT! Stab! STAB! Stabbity! STAB!!!

 But it's entertaining from a certain perspective. Dance my monkees, dance!

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;556624Well, even excluding prestige classes a more realistic 'rogue' build would be something like Ranger 2/Rogue 8 for someone shooting for high level rogue abilities.  Not that there aren't rogue oriented PrC that get Sneak Attack, the number one reason most players would be compelled to stick with the class.



I thought the whole purpose of this brouhaha was to take things out of the realm of theorycraft into the realm of actual play, and I don't think that is what is happening ITT, since the characters are still basically theorycrafted ones that wouldn't be seeing actual play in the first place.

Why I hate 3e :)
I mean the 4 characters could all be cleric zen archers that polymorph into arrow demons daily..... might defeat the point of the exercise though.

Quote from: jibbajibba;556810Why I hate 3e :)
I mean the 4 characters could all be cleric zen archers that polymorph into arrow demons daily..... might defeat the point of the exercise though.

Just going by my memoroes of running 3e, I am pretty confident a properly optimized party would make short work of the bone devil. I recall the CRs being way too low once folks started getting on the character optimization boards and figuring these things out on their own.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;556821Just going by my memoroes of running 3e, I am pretty confident a properly optimized party would make short work of the bone devil. I recall the CRs being way too low once folks started getting on the character optimization boards and figuring these things out on their own.

Again the phrase CharOp just makes my skin crawl ......

Quote from: Marleycat;556714What game engine is the base? I'm lazy I'd rather you explain your game than me trying to parse it since your here.:)

If BECMI were 100% compatible with AD&D, then L&L would be to 3.5 what BECMI is to AD&D.

100% compatibility means you can pick up any supplement for 3.5 and use it in L&L without any conversion whatsoever. It also means that you could, for example, play a PC from L&L for five levels and then decide you want to start using some of the more complex customization options from the full 3.5 ruleset and you could do that.

You can also take the monster creation system for L&L (which is a simple four step process you can do on-the-fly at the table -- pick CR, select powers, assign ability scores, and pick skills) and use it to generate stat blocks that would work in your 3.5 campaign (although they wouldn't be 3.5 "legal" they would be balanced).

It's meant to be a game for those who like the core of 3.5 but hate the complexity of it. And it's designed specifically to make it easy for you to use it as a base and then add in whatever added complexity/customization you want from the 3.5 ruleset.

I've written a number of blog posts which go into more detail. Those can be found here: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/tag/legends-labyrinths

End of thread-crapping.

In the interest of contributing: Although the actual character sheets are universally inapplicable to the standards of this thunderdome (because of heavy multiclassing and PrC usage), I realized that it might be interesting to look at some applicable equipment lists from this level range:

Sorcerer: phylactery of undead turning, amulet of health +2, antitoxin (x2), antitoxin vs. drow sleep poison, arrow (x20), backpack, mithral buckler +1 (death ward), case (x2), mithral chain shirt of greater stamina +3, chalk, chest, cloak of charisma +4, gloves of dexterity +4, goodberry, ink, inkpen, kukri, composite longbow +2 (+2), potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of cure serious wounds, belt pouch (x2), neck pouch, spell component pouch, ring of protection +2, lesser metamagic rod (maximize), scrolls (disintegrate, enervation, mass hold person, power word stun, protection from energy, spell turning, teleport, true strike), wand of fear (6 charges), wand of hold person (28 charges), wand of lightning bolt (CL 9, 17 charges)

Fighter: dwarven waraxe +2 (blessed, cold iron, flaming), gloves of strength +2, boots of springing and striding, bag of holding (type 2)

Paladin ('cause that fighter is kinda weird): +2 full plate, +2 heavy shield, ring of deflection +2, potion of cure serious wounds, potion of protection from evil, potion of haste, scroll of deathward, scroll of raise dead, scratchbook from Tsuto Kaijitsu, crowbar, chalk, grappling hook, hemp rope (x2), backpack, waterskin, bedroll, sack, flint & steel, hooded lantern, oil flasks (x3), wooden holy symbol

Cleric: hammer of Pelor +2 (good-aligned, disruptive), composite longbow +2 (+2), +1 longsword, +1 mithril full plate, wand of restoration (4 charges), rod of cure light wounds, slippers of spider climb, star of valor (+3 Diplomacy vs. nobles in Cauldron), crest of Cauldron (20% discount in Cauldron shops), white shield (+5 Diplomacy in Cauldron), scroll of spiritual armor (x3), potion of invisibility

Rogue (13th level): masterwork shortsword, masterwork cold iron dagger, +2 dagger, silvered dagger, masterwork shortbow, +2 mithral chain, masterwork buckler, fog-cutting goggles (see through magic fogs and mists clearly), medusa mask (1/day--flesh to stone, DC 15), wand of magic missiles (27 charges), potion of cure light wounds (x2), two rings of uselesness, fancy gloves, fancy cloak, fancy vestments, wands of pointing (x3), potion of vile-tasting harmlessness, neverburning torch (aka, "the stick), two necklaces of "hang-yourself-on-a-natural-one), daggers (x2), starknives (x2), darts (x4), war razor, silvered dagger, smokestick, thunderstone, tanglefoot bag, sap, masterwork lockpicks, small steel mirror

Thanks Justin I am going to read the linksies to make a final decision but it looks good so far.:)

Okay. Still no word from Kaelik, but I'm really curious how this goes. Would you still be up for it if I just ran the Bone Devil?

I've got no moral objection, though I suspect Kaelik will learn nothing from it.

Lets get to some devil slaying!

Is this still going on?  

Does someone else need to step in to run the bone devil?  I'm up for it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;561258Is this still going on?  

Does someone else need to step in to run the bone devil?  I'm up for it.

Would you? I know Spike's ready to go and this intrigues me.

Would you? I actually have had no time at all since I said that I would.

Spoiler for the stuff I was planning on. Spike, you might want to stay out until after.

Spoiler

Feel free to change any of this, it's just what I came up with

I liked this map:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mapofweek/Dungeon4_76hs_150.jpg

I found a bunch of options which are blatantly unfair towards one side or the other, and most of the rest didn't feel "lichy." This was one of the few that made sense, and also has the advantage of being small.

Backstory is that a lich carved this hangout out of a mountain long, long ago. He was lichy for a long time, but hasn't been here for centuries. The little offshoot at the top left was his lab; the circle on on the right was his library. The big room is his hall of mannequins or something, where he kept his most fabulous clothes. Or a throne room; whichever. There's also a tiny guest quarters at the middle right, with very sturdy doors that lock from the outside. The cross hallway had storage rooms at one end, and something horrible at the other (mummies, maybe?). There were also originally doors about 50ft north of the stairs, and the stair side was full of unpleasant undeads.
Anyway, cultists moved in more recently, and made terrible choices re: demon summoning in the library. They are currently draped artistically about the throne room. They were the local chapter of the Right Reasonable Shadow And Zombie Fancier Society, so had rebarricaded the doors near the stairs and refilled the zombie dispensers. They were all bunked in the guest room.

The bone devil was not happy about being called here, and expressed his displeasure with a new artistic creation in the throne room (his medium is cultist parts). Unfortunately, he finds himself stuck here now. He's been alternating spending days in the lab and nights in the library, trying to figure out how to free himself.

The hallways have ceilings which are slightly higher than they are wide (13' and 8' respectively). The throne room has 25' ceilings. The library is actually 40' tall, and lined with shelves of books.

Hope that's enough to be inspiring at least.

Bah. Saw Kaelik in the monster thread and my brain just kept editing his name into Fectin's place.
Sure. I'll respect teh spoiler tag, just like I would for kaelik. I've already done made 'em up, gotta roll wit' what I got, right?

Okay, so preliminary thoughts from reading the thread:

1) Map seems generally fine to me: However:

Spoiler

Not sure what you mean by trapped? If you mean on plane? Sure, but since he can Greater Teleport outside, and you didn't list any magical limitations, not sure how he would be trapped. Why can't he just have decided to take up residence?

2) For the Wizard, you have Greater Spell Penetration without spell Penetration, did you spend two feats and just write the higher one? It looks like it from the number of feats, but whatever.

3) I am fine with giving XP up to half way to 11 for Permancies/Contingencies/Spells of any kind. I generally don't want to involve crafting magical equipment (other than Wizard scrolls) if we can, because that's annoying to me. Likewise I oppose Leadership for actual Leadership use, but do not in any way object to the Paladin outside with the Mules, since that's just a generous giving a way of a feat. (The level 5 Paladin anyway, if he were going to argue for a level 8, maybe I'd rethink that.)

4) On the subject of what he knows ahead of time, I obviously think that actual build items that cost money or feats should be based on not knowing what's coming, and being generally useful. But for spells prepared/strategy I think he should be able to use his spells. Not sages or anything, because 1) They don't exist in the game. 2) Relying on other people to have encountered this devil presupposes that I fail to kill that person or run away before they see me if they look too tough. No fair to declare me a failure before the test starts.

So of the listed spells, notice that Augury can only go about 30 minutes forward, so if you aren't within 30 minutes of the place, how could you possibly be auguring? Also, notice that both Augury and Divination cost money, so please spend some money casting the spells, ask the actual questions, have fectin roll for success, and make any spell preparation choices you want based on that information. But preferably please wait until after I work out everything with fectin.

5) Am I missing anything?

Spoiler

I had planned on asking for the ability to expand my monster selection to other Demons and Devils, in order to negate whatever subconscious benefits come from planning to fight a bone Devil I already explained the routine of. Things I think no one should reasonably object to are: Bone Devil/Vrock/Beblith. The Beblith is of course CR 10, but are we really in a position to complain about CR 10? I would have liked to expand it to CR 11 monsters as well, since it's going to be their only encounter of the day (that's right in his plans) and a CR 11 monster is still EL 10, and of course the CR rules spell out that they should easily be able to handle 3 of those a day, that greatly expands my options, giving me a second Devil, the barbed Devil, and also the Hezrou and Retriever as Demons. However, if any non Spike party who reads this, IE Marleycat/Benoist/Sacrosant/Fectin wants to object in a spoiler block to CR 11s, I will drop them from the table no argument.

Another reason to not choose the Bone Devil is because any monster that doesn't full attack from surprise saves us an argument about the way initiative works.

While I strongly believe that my interpretation of "come into contact" is correct, I don't imagine I can get anyone who is has come out against it to change their mind now, and even if I could, it would be a lot of arguing about it for little practical gain. But choosing a monster that does anything else to announce itself to the party instantly solves that problem.

And I really hate arguing about Monkeys in Sacks and how the rules deal with that.

About Goddamn time you showed up, Kaelik.

Quote from: jeff37923;561420About Goddamn time you showed up, Kaelik.

Can you believe nobody told him when they created this thread.  His expressed willingness to participate was translated as 'watching all new threads carefully to see if this one got created'.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;561429Can you believe nobody told him when they created this thread.  His expressed willingness to participate was translated as 'watching all new threads carefully to see if this one got created'.

Yeah, but, if he'd been told, then it wouldn't be possible to complain about him not being here, would it?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;561429Can you believe nobody told him when they created this thread.  His expressed willingness to participate was translated as 'watching all new threads carefully to see if this one got created'.

I could, but considering his participation in the thread that generated the Thunderdome, I find it suspect.

Quote from: Bobloblah;561460Yeah, but, if he'd been told, then it wouldn't be possible to complain about him not being here, would it?

Got it in one. There may be hope for you yet.

I take it I'm not reading spoilers?  Someone clue me in to when I start participating again.

Spike, your skills are wrong.

You have 14 ranks in a bunch of things, but 13 is the maximum for a level 10 character.

Also, you have the wrong attribute I think, for several things.

Profession, Spot, and Listen are based on Wisdom, not Int.

How do you want to do treasure? Just trust fectin to roll up a standard parcel?

EDIT: Spike, would you be willing to run this multiple times with different monsters? There was an earlier conversation about using other Demons or Devils besides the Bone Devil, and when I looked at other ones I really wanted to show some of them too, but obviously I'm also pretty keen on the Bone Devil.

So would you be willing to try it 4-5 times with different Demons/Devils?

Quote from: Kaelik;561878Spike, your skills are wrong.

You have 14 ranks in a bunch of things, but 13 is the maximum for a level 10 character.

You got me, copper. I'll go fix them after dinner.

QuoteAlso, you have the wrong attribute I think, for several things.

Profession, Spot, and Listen are based on Wisdom, not Int.

I'm pretty sure profession won't come up in 'play', and the only character with spot and listen has Alertness. If you want to fine tooth comb it again, you'll see a +2 wis bonus combined with a +2 bonus from Alertness equals a +4 bonus, which is what he has. But yes, I need to lower the skill one point anyway.

QuoteHow do you want to do treasure? Just trust fectin to roll up a standard parcel?

Why would I care about treasure? This is Thunderdome!

QuoteEDIT: Spike, would you be willing to run this multiple times with different monsters? There was an earlier conversation about using other Demons or Devils besides the Bone Devil, and when I looked at other ones I really wanted to show some of them too, but obviously I'm also pretty keen on the Bone Devil.

So would you be willing to try it 4-5 times with different Demons/Devils?

Sure.  

I'd still like to know if there are spoiler tags that aren't meant for me up in here, but then again, I'm kinda lazy so going back to read old hidden posts sounds a bit too much like work either way.

EDIT: Do you want the XP for permancies/other spells/whatever? I offered it to you in my last post, and you haven'e said anything. I think it's sensible to assume that where they are worth the money/XP for PCs to have them.

Quote from: Spike;561890I'm pretty sure profession won't come up in 'play', and the only character with spot and listen has Alertness. If you want to fine tooth comb it again, you'll see a +2 wis bonus combined with a +2 bonus from Alertness equals a +4 bonus, which is what he has. But yes, I need to lower the skill one point anyway.

Your Rogue has a Wisdom of 10, so how is he getting a +2 Wisdom bonus?

Quote from: Spike;561890Why would I care about treasure? This is Thunderdome!

You would care about the treasure because it is being used to kill you.

To quote the DMG under Monsters with Treasure: "Generate their reasure according to their monster entry and the rules under Building a Treasure, below. This may generate more items that the monster can use, and that's fine (see Custom Treasures, below)."

Custom treasures of course, just talks about making treasure specifically usuable for boss monsters, but that's not relevant here. So as I said, do you just want to trust fectin to roll up a treasure?

Quote from: Spike;561890I'd still like to know if there are spoiler tags that aren't meant for me up in here, but then again, I'm kinda lazy so going back to read old hidden posts sounds a bit too much like work either way.

I have two spoiler tags, the first one is a response to fectin's map, so you shouldn't look at that. The second one is a statement about using other monsters besides the Bone Devil, but you probably also shouldn't look at that, even though I now have specified the use of other monsters.

Quote from: Kaelik;561894EDIT: Do you want the XP for permancies/other spells/whatever? I offered it to you in my last post, and you haven'e said anything. I think it's sensible to assume that where they are worth the money/XP for PCs to have them.

Not too worried about it.

 

QuoteYour Rogue has a Wisdom of 10, so how is he getting a +2 Wisdom bonus?

I dunno. Apparently I can't read my own typing.

QuoteYou would care about the treasure because it is being used to kill you.

To quote the DMG under Monsters with Treasure: "Generate their reasure according to their monster entry and the rules under Building a Treasure, below. This may generate more items that the monster can use, and that's fine (see Custom Treasures, below)."

That sounds like something between you and fectin. I'm just the PCs here.

QuoteI have two spoiler tags, the first one is a response to fectin's map, so you shouldn't look at that. The second one is a statement about using other monsters besides the Bone Devil, but you probably also shouldn't look at that, even though I now have specified the use of other monsters.

M'kay.  Saves me some strain I guess.  I'll go back and change my entries.

Quote from: jeff37923;561520Got it in one. There may be hope for you yet.

Shh! I can't hear what's happening in the Thunderdome.

This is for fectin/observers about treasure then:

Spoiler

Since he has agreed to go multiple times, my theory is that all the encounters should be treated as EL 10s for treasure parcel purposes.

Technically, this can be true in that CR 9, 10, and 11 monsters are all given as EL 10 encounters, and he is a level 10 party.

So I have three ideas: 1) just generate 1 treasure parcel at random and use it for all of them.
2) Generate a different random treasure parcel for each time.
3) Generate 4 treasure parcels (that's how many CR 9-11 demons/devils get treasure) and I can pick which one I want for each Demon/Devil.

to quote DMG, "If you want the treasures to make sense, roll for them randomly but then assign them to the encounters based on your best judgment."

My preferences go from bottom up, for obvious reasons.

Quote from: Kaelik;561905This is for fectin/observers about treasure then:

Spoiler

Since he has agreed to go multiple times, my theory is that all the encounters should be treated as EL 10s for treasure parcel purposes.

Technically, this can be true in that CR 9, 10, and 11 monsters are all given as EL 10 encounters, and he is a level 10 party.

So I have three ideas: 1) just generate 1 treasure parcel at random and use it for all of them.
2) Generate a different random treasure parcel for each time.
3) Generate 4 treasure parcels (that's how many CR 9-11 demons/devils get treasure) and I can pick which one I want for each Demon/Devil.

to quote DMG, "If you want the treasures to make sense, roll for them randomly but then assign them to the encounters based on your best judgment."

My preferences go from bottom up, for obvious reasons.

An opintion on the treasure options

Spoiler

I would vote for option 2. Keeps it cleaner and less post analysis oportunity for siting cherrypicking treasure parcels as a reason for party failure

Quote from: jibbajibba;561917An opintion on the treasure options

Spoiler

I would vote for option 2. Keeps it cleaner and less post analysis oportunity for siting cherrypicking treasure parcels as a reason for party failure

Spoiler

Which is why I specifically quoted the rules that tell you to cherry pick treasure parcels for different monsters, but I'm fine with anything.

If that's how y'all gonna be, PM me when you're done whispering behind my back...

:p

Folks,

I'm sorry. Life got busy, and I'm not going to be able to support this for a couple weeks. Since he volunteered earlier, you may want to ask DeadDM to step in; otherwise I'll be back in mid-August.

Haven't been posting a lot, but I'm around.  I'd be happy to step in if all parties are ready and willing.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;564395Haven't been posting a lot, but I'm around.  I'd be happy to step in if all parties are ready and willing.

I need treasure rolls for EL 10 encounters, followed by talking out my usual patterns.

I'm away from home, so I'm using this site for random treasure generation:

http://www.ajs.com/~ajs/cgi-bin/mktreasure.cgi

Spoiler

Treasure 1
CR 10 Random Treasure
coin: 0pp 1,900gp 0sp 0cp (1,900gp value)
art: silver comb with moonstones (800gp)
art: fire opal pendant on a fine gold chain (1,800gp)
art: embroidered and bejeweled glove (1,000gp)
art: solid gold idol (10 lb.) (800gp)
arcane scroll containing:
   1. see invisibility (lvl 2, cast 3) (150gp) (150gp value)
wand of summon monster II (charges 28) (2,520gp)
bear's endurance (potion) (300gp)
arcane scroll containing:
   1. jump (lvl 1, cast 1) (25gp)
   2. shocking grasp (lvl 1, cast 1) (25gp)
   3. mount (lvl 1, cast 1) (25gp) (75gp value)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Total value: 9,345gp
Resale value: 7,822gp 5sp

Treasure 2
CR 10 Random Treasure
coin: 336pp 5,872gp 8,309sp 6,297cp (10,125gp 8sp 7cp value)
wand of magic missile (7th) (charges 41) (4,305gp)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Total value: 14,430gp 8sp 7cp
Resale value: 12,278gp 3sp 7cp

Treasure 3
CR 10 Random Treasure
coin: 12pp 79gp 5sp 50cp (200gp value)
gem: red spinel (80gp)
gem: chrysoprase (60gp)
gem: amber (90gp)
gem: fiery yellow corundum (6,000gp)
gem: onyx (70gp)
gem: coral (100gp)
eagle's splendor (potion) (300gp)
ring of swimming (2,500gp)
medium +1 shield, heavy, steel (1,340gp)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Total value: 10,740gp
Resale value: 8,670gp

Treasure 4
CR 10 Random Treasure
coin: 0pp 1,300gp 0sp 0cp (1,300gp value)
spider climb (potion) (300gp)
boots of the winterlands (2,500gp)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Total value: 4,100gp
Resale value: 2,700gp

Spike,

Please repost your characters with necessary corrections.  Kaelik has pointed out that you've raised your skills to 14 ranks (when 13 is maximum); some of the skills were a little higher than they should be.

I declare victory by forfeit, since unlike when I didn't show up in this thread, Spike has received PMs telling him to fucking show up.

Also it's probably been longer by this point.

Oh, yeah, you're totally right. Since I didn't even bother to log onto the web for a week, a bone devil will always one shot any given arbitary wizard, and the rest of hte party will always be utterly useless without said wizard.


:rolleyes:

Whatever. I'm back now, you've got my attention for the next day or so until I get bored again.  Feel free to invite someone else to play my party of geeks if I wander off again.

Quote from: Kaelik;569722I declare victory by forfeit....

You don't get to declare anything buttercup.

It's actually hilarious to see these guys cry and bend over backwards to get to call something, anything, a "victory". Please, I want more ridiculous denials of reality like this. They entertain me.

With all due respect I dont think deadDMwalking is a good impartial choice for game master (that isnt an attack on you oersonally deadDM, as i dont think I would be impartial). The GM ought to be someone who hasn't had much of a stake in any of these discussions.

Considering Spike has mentioned that he doesn't consider me an impartial arbiter, and BedrockBrendan has called my impartiality in to question, I will respectfully recuse myself.  

For myself, I'm much more interested in the Fighter versus Wizard discussion than Party versus Monster discussion.  While I have no doubt that a well-played monster can TPK a party, even if it is supposed to represent a normal 'challenge', the underlying issue has never been in doubt - a DM can TPK a party at will by putting them against a challenge beyond their ability with no hope of escape...  While the CR guidelines may posit that a Bone Devil is a decent challenge, the guidelines are not perfect - a dragon is more difficult than its CR would suggest, while an animal is usually weaker than the CR would suggest.  Outsiders tend toward the higher end of their CR.  

Who among the 'considered neutral' members of the board would be willing to step in adjudicate?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;570761With all due respect I dont think deadDMwalking is a good impartial choice for game master (that isnt an attack on you oersonally deadDM, as i dont think I would be impartial). The GM ought to be someone who hasn't had much of a stake in any of these discussions.

This thread has nothing to do with whatever Wizard vs Fighter bullshit is going on that I stopped paying attention to.

This spawned from a different thread discussing CR that as far as I remember, deadDM never even posted in.

But hey, did you object to jeff being the DM of the Wizard vs Fighter thunderdome because he's not impartial from having a stake in the discussions?

Oh wait, of course you didn't.

EDIT: Though of course, if we could get fectin back, he's much less stupid than deadDM, so I wouldn't mind.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;570786For myself, I'm much more interested in the Fighter versus Wizard discussion than Party versus Monster discussion.  While I have no doubt that a well-played monster can TPK a party, even if it is supposed to represent a normal 'challenge', the underlying issue has never been in doubt - a DM can TPK a party at will by putting them against a challenge beyond their ability with no hope of escape...  While the CR guidelines may posit that a Bone Devil is a decent challenge, the guidelines are not perfect - a dragon is more difficult than its CR would suggest, while an animal is usually weaker than the CR would suggest.  Outsiders tend toward the higher end of their CR.

Sounds kind of like a magical tea party to me.  "DM, may I have a monster that isn't too difficult?"

I never objected to DeadDM, I said I wasn't certain he would be impartial, or words to that effect*.  If I HAD objected I would have said so when he stepped up to the plate.

The reason I stopped posting to the thread was mostly that I wasn't actually reading the forum for a week or two. You know, because I have a life or something?**

The long delay in running up did kill my initial enthusiasm, as did the fact that I was pretty sure I'd corrected the skill totals already (which I can freely admit that they were not earlier today when I looked. Not, that, you know: i actually care. I'm shorting myself because I don't see a few extra points in craft:my little pony dolls actually being relevant to the question of if a lone stock bone devil can A: Assassinate the mage every time out the gate and B: without the mage the rest of the party is helpless.)


Anyway: Skills are fixered, I'm not going to sweat a few thousand GP that I shorted myself in potions and whatnot (better to be short than over, so you can't complain I cheated ya with one too many healing pots...).  So, like, whatever.



* not going to double check, but I think I said I had reservations. In another thread. As part of a general mocking screed because I wasn't actually on line to post when you declared victory unilaterally.

** I know, I know: Blasphemy.  Fuck you, I work 80 hours a week, no exaggeration.

Quote from: StormBringer;570834Sounds kind of like a magical tea party to me.  "DM, may I have a monster that isn't too difficult?"

At the risk of derailing this thread, I don't even know what you're trying to say here.  

In the games I run, I usually include encounters that are challenging for the players.  Some are too difficult, and some are too easy, but I don't regularly aim for challenges that are impossible to win or impossible to lose.  When a party of 10th level characters decides to camp in a normal wood and climb half-dome (because, hey, why not), I don't care if they're attacked by a bear or not.  If they are, they can kill it, or scare it away, or charm it, or talk to it, or leave.  If anything, it simply gets a passing mention 'your sleep is interrupted only by a hungry bear drawn to the smell of your marshmallows - you scare it away without difficulty'.  Sure, we could play it out, but why?  

If it's appropriate for a monster beyond the level of the party, they might run into one.  For example, if they have reason to believe that a particular mountain cave is the lair of a great wyrm, they could seek it out at 1st level.  I wouldn't make the creature a wyrmling just to avoid a TPK - but the party probably would know better than to seek out a great wyrm at the start of their adventuring career.

In general, I try to make a world that makes sense.  Usually, the PCs happen to be engaged with the part of the world that it would make sense for them to do so (where they are challenged, but not well beyond their capabilities).  They could choose to do 'low-level challenges' even if they are high level; they could choose to do 'high-level challenges' even if they are low level, but usually the types of challenges tend to hang out in the same geographic area.  A CR 8 Apex Predator probably doesn't leave a lot of CR 1 monsters in its territory.  So if the PCs are tracking down an orc encampment, they're not TERRIBLY likely to run into a Behir (but it has been known to happen).

Quote from: Kaelik;570833This thread has nothing to do with whatever Wizard vs Fighter bullshit is going on that I stopped paying attention to.

This spawned from a different thread discussing CR that as far as I remember, deadDM never even posted in.

But hey, did you object to jeff being the DM of the Wizard vs Fighter thunderdome because he's not impartial from having a stake in the discussions?

Oh wait, of course you didn't.

EDIT: Though of course, if we could get fectin back, he's much less stupid than deadDM, so I wouldn't mind.

Absolutely I didn't, because I am partisan in this. That is why I said I would make a terrible choice for GM in one of these.

Quote from: StormBringer;570834Sounds kind of like a magical tea party to me.  "DM, may I have a monster that isn't too difficult?"

The "magical tea party" thing will always exist in tabletop games in some form or another; there can't be codified rules for everything.  

As for the CR system, it isn't very good in a lot of areas.  The best option for 3rd Edition games usually involves the DM finding the right difficulty levels for his PCs based on various factors is often the best way of doing things (especially where character optimization and rules mastery can drastically change between PCs of the same level).  This is unfortunate in that it heaps a lot more work on the DM, though.

Quote from: Libertad;570905The "magical tea party" thing will always exist in tabletop games in some form or another; there can't be codified rules for everything.  The CR system isn't very good in a lot of areas, but the DM finding the right difficulty levels for his PCs based on various factors is often the best way of doing things (especially in a game like 3rd Edition, where character optimization and rules mastery can drastically change between PCs of the same level).

I hate the very term "magical tea party" using it implies that human (DM) discretion is a bad thing and that's a silly impossible stance for a game that is at least half social and depends on real human interaction to really work as intended unlike some MMORG.

Quote from: Marleycat;570908I hate the very term "magical tea party" using it implies that human (DM) discretion is a bad thing and that's a silly impossible stance for a game that is at least half social and depends on real human interaction to really work as intended unlike some MMORG.

I believe that MTP was originally intended to refer to sections of role-playing books that told the DM to make things up; at worst, the "make it up" section was an excuse to justify poor play-testing and unfinished work.

Unfortunately, MTP all too often is used to criticized an RPG which doesn't have explicit rules for something ("why aren't there explicit rules for crop yields or an in-depth economic system?!").  I really don't care about some aspects of the game world if they don't have an effect on the kinds of adventures meant to be played in the setting.

Quote from: Libertad;570905The "magical tea party" thing will always exist in tabletop games in some form or another; there can't be codified rules for everything.  

As for the CR system, it isn't very good in a lot of areas.  The best option for 3rd Edition games usually involves the DM finding the right difficulty levels for his PCs based on various factors is often the best way of doing things (especially where character optimization and rules mastery can drastically change between PCs of the same level).  This is unfortunate in that it heaps a lot more work on the DM, though.

Absolutely, on both counts.  Denners like to pretend that "magical tea party" only applies to the parts they don't like, or that it is some kind of valid argument by itself.

And the best option you mention for 3.x is the same best option in use for the three decades before it.  ;)

Eh. Bump. Whatevah.

Maybe I should declare victory now. Go me. (emo:smiley)

I don't know why you'd declare victory.  Kaelik wants to fight, but there is no DM.  There's  no DM because you expressed doubts about my 'impartiality' in another thread, and BedrockBrendan renewed them here.  Kaelik has agreed that another DM will be fine, so we're waiting for someone to volunteer.  

Perhaps you, Spike, or BedrockBrendan, would suggest a suitable alternative.  Maybe even formally invite him or her?

I'm sorry, did the utter lack of excitement in my words and the 'emo:smiley' comment not clue you into the sarcasm?

It's my chubby cheeks, isn't it: They just don't convey serious boredom properly.

If I intended to kick you as a referee for this I would have said something, to you, weeks ago. I figure if you are blatantly unfair that will be pretty obvious. Ideally I'd prefer to keep fectin, but that wasn't an option so 'ere we go, I guess.

Bored now, again, but I'll stick around at least a few days longer.

LOL Priceless.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;571439I don't know why you'd declare victory.  Kaelik wants to fight, but there is no DM.  There's  no DM because you expressed doubts about my 'impartiality' in another thread, and BedrockBrendan renewed them here.  Kaelik has agreed that another DM will be fine, so we're waiting for someone to volunteer.  

Perhaps you, Spike, or BedrockBrendan, would suggest a suitable alternative.  Maybe even formally invite him or her?

I stand by calling your impartiality into question, not because you are a bad Gm ( I suspect you are a good one) but because you are agressively on the same side of these debates as McGuy. I am just as aggressively on the opposing side,which is why I would be a bad choice as well. I think these kinds of contests will be meaningless if both sides don't view the Gm as impartial.

The problem is the number of 3E GMs here is a bit lean I think. If I was going strictly by personality and temperment, Estar would probably be my suggestion (but I have a feeling he isn't too into 3E) because he seems like a very impartial GM. I don't recall if he was involved in the threads that spawned this one, but Justin Alexander has a pretty solid grasp of the 3E system. So i would suggest him as well. If you give me a day or so I can probably come up with a better list.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;571449but Justin Alexander has a pretty solid grasp of the 3E system. So i would suggest him as well. If you give me a day or so I can probably come up with a better list.

HAHAHA!

deadDM, the person who didn't even post in the thread that spawned this one is too impartial, but Alexander, the person I was fucking arguing with in that thread would be a good choice.

Suck a barrel of cocks and die.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;571449I think these kinds of contests will be meaningless if both sides don't view the Gm as impartial.

This thread seems meaningless.  What is this contest meant to prove?

Quote from: Rum Cove;571508This thread seems meaningless.  What is this contest meant to prove?

Agreed. It won't prove anything. Whoever ends up victorious, the other side will cry foul, say it was a fluke, etc. You guys want to bet?

At least the Fighter vs. Wizard contest is proving how incredibly boring 3e can be.

AD&D is much better at resolving the whole spot issue - "YES, both parties spot each other, now let's see how far and if either party is taken off guard."

Quote from: Rum Cove;571508This thread seems meaningless.  What is this contest meant to prove?

I think if they are done right they can be a place where we at least get some examples of the theoretical scenarios people bring up in action. I dont think they can prove anything though. And benoist is probably right both sides will cry fowl. Personally I just thought it was a simple way to channel some of this stuff out of the other threads.

Quote from: Rum Cove;571508This thread seems meaningless.  What is this contest meant to prove?

Two things really:

1: That the Bone Devil can assassinate the party wizard in either the surprise round or on round one every time.

and

2: There is nothing the party can do about said Bone Devil without their wizard


If both 1 and 2 are correct, then obviously the Bone Devil is 'Too Powerful' for a level appropriate party to take on, which is then endemic of 10th level monsters as a whole, indicting the entire game as irreprably broken at that point.

Quote from: Spike;571568Two things really:

Okay.

I don't see why DeadDM or I wouldn't be impartial in this particular case. This bone devil v party thing is only a tangent and barely has anything to do with what I was posting in the other thread at all. What's more is I don't really like Kaelik (for various reasons that don't prohibit me from saying "he's right"). As far as I know Dead also doesn't really have a stake in this claim either. I know this also doesn't have anything to do with what Brendan was saying.

What's more is I don't really "aggressively" disagree with brendan either. I think we're not far apart on our opinions themselves just the method of fixing them into place. Well, other than the idea that its ok for a game to have a balance point where certain characters do better at the "beginning/end" and are bad at the other part.

Quote from: MGuy;571587I don't see why DeadDM or I wouldn't be impartial in this particular case.

You are kidding, right? You must be. :D

Quote from: Benoist;571590You are kidding, right? You must be. :D

Actually, no. I don't like Kaelik, I don't like spike so that's even. The claim that bone devil is untouchable by the rest of the party after assassinating the wizard is not my claim and barely relates to anything I've said on this entire message board.

As far as I can tell Dead cares if not less than just as little as I do about the outcome of this particular showdown.

Let deadDMwalking referee this and get it going already!

EDIT: And in fact, deadDM never posted in the thread that spawned this argument.

Quote from: Rum Cove;571508This thread seems meaningless.  What is this contest meant to prove?

The thread is supposed to prove that:

Quote from: me in the thread that spawned thisif you play monsters as even remotely intelligent and by the book, you can probably TPK every core party I've ever seen.

Quote from: me in the thread that spawned thisThe rules state that an Osyluth should take 20% of the resources of a level 9 party, but I would not be at all surprised to see it TPK one.

So no, there is no requirement that I kill the Wizard in the surprise round. That is in no way a necessary part of my argument, and Spike, who consistently argued that the rest of the party could beat the Bone Devil doesn't get to declare victory just because it takes multiple rounds to TPK him.

Your commentary in defense of that point was that the fighter was useless, the rogue almost useless... and you never once explained what you thought the cleric was going to do while the mage was getting geeked.

I fully intend to declare a victory if you fail to kill 'the Brah' at all, but that's neither here nor there. If the fighter eats the bone devil's face off without significant help (difficult to prove) I'd pretty much consider my honor satisfied as well.


A monster being able to get a TPK wasn't a point of contention. Your point that at 10th level the game is hopelessly broken because a Bone Devil will always TPK by assassinating the mage is what I'm here to disprove.

If you happen to NOT mean that 10th level D&D is unplayable just because bone devils (or, for that matter similar ambush monsters), well, then I guess I DO declare victory, because that, in fact is MY point.

Though forgive me for not bothering to wade through 4000 posts to find the relevant contextless sentances to quote.

Quote from: Spike;571695Your commentary in defense of that point was that the fighter was useless, the rogue almost useless... and you never once explained what you thought the cleric was going to do while the mage was getting geeked.

No it wasn't you idiot. Do you even remember what thread this came from? My commentary was in defense of the point that by the book gaming is largely impossible because by the book monsters TPK by the book core parties.

And of course, you are here repeating the lie that I didn't say what the Cleric would do, even though I did, I when into an analysis of how he was best of attempting to attack with a mace because most of his spells would have really shitty chances of success, unless someone else provoked an AoO, in which case he should try planeshift, since that's about the only thing that has even a negligible chance of saving the party.

Quote from: Spike;571695I fully intend to declare a victory if you fail to kill 'the Brah' at all, but that's neither here nor there. If the fighter eats the bone devil's face off without significant help (difficult to prove) I'd pretty much consider my honor satisfied as well.

I would consider your "honor" proved then as well, because I will consider your honor proven if the Bone Devil actually dies in any way.

Quote from: Spike;571695A monster being able to get a TPK wasn't a point of contention. Your point that at 10th level the game is hopelessly broken because a Bone Devil will always TPK by assassinating the mage is what I'm here to disprove.

Yes it fucking was. The entire point of contention was that by the book gaming results in TPKs because core parties cannot stand up to intelligently played monsters of their CR.

Quote from: Spike;571695If you happen to NOT mean that 10th level D&D is unplayable just because bone devils (or, for that matter similar ambush monsters), well, then I guess I DO declare victory, because that, in fact is MY point.

As long as you admit that by the book gaming doesn't work because intelligently played monsters of CR appropriate to take 20% of the parties resources would often end up TPKing a core party I don't care if you "declare victory."

But if you aren't willing to admit that I was right all along in my contention that by the book gaming results in CR=Party level Monsters TPKing core parties, then you should stand up for that contention by actually beating a CR 9 Bone Devil with your level 10 party.

Quote from: Spike;571695Though forgive me for not bothering to wade through 4000 posts to find the relevant contextless sentances to quote.

Hey, look, you are still an idiot. There are 185 posts you would have to "wade through" to find a quote. But you won't because that was never the point.

You, like every other idiot on this forum, just decided this was about fighter vs wizard because you have the attention span of a gnat. This was never in any way about Fighter vs Wizard usefulness, it's about by the book gaming. Which is why it came from the by the book gaming thread not the Wizard vs Fighter thread. Dumbshit.

Wow, that was an exceptionally angry post to agree with me in the general.

Hmm... I say you say bone devils TPK too often, thus game is broken.

You say I don't know what you're talking about, because you say Bone Devils TPK too often thus game is broken.

Great, so we agree that you think the game is broken because Bone Devil TPKs.

And thus I'm here to prove Bone Devils DON"T TPK too often by not getting TPK'd.

Are you planning to quote me and yell about how wrong and stupid I am because you agree with me again?  Do I need to do lots and lots of homework on the posting history of one Kaelik before I summarize my opinion of your point (which again: D&D is broken because Bone Devil TPKs. Because once the wizard is dead, the rest of the party is useless or something (because you very, very specifically point out ambush devil/surprise round 'slaughter house'... so much so that we went for a dozen or so post about a reasonable expectation for Wizard HP at tenth level vs Bone Devil DPS over two rounds. So where, again, is this disagreement/agreement coming from?). No, I am not sure you ever came out and SAID it, but every time we asked/pointed out that your senario involved only a wizard being mauled (in a full party of four, no less) you're responses were various shades of 'not a meaningful contribution', except for the cleric, which I CLEARLY recall you never once even acknowledging was there. No reason for the cleric to not heal the wizard, no reason for the cleric to not-cast anything really. The closest you got was pointing out the glaringly obvious fact that the cleric shouldn't be smacking a devil in teh face with his beatstick... a strawman since no one ever suggested it.

So yes, I do recall quite a bit about your take ont eh bone devil ambush senario.

Which, in fact, is WHY this trainwreck of a thread was created, so you could see that there are, in fact, FOUR members of a TEAM, and thus Bone Devil mage-ambush is remarkably short sighted.   This, in fact, despite the fact that the DM's control over scenarios (Fights) means that he can perfectly slant every fight to be much harder than reasonable while just claiming it is 'fighting smart'.  That GREAT book of GM advice (Listen up you primative screwheads) called this the Elephant Rule.  The GM can always drop and elephant on your head, and if it doesn't work the first time he's got more elephants were that came from.

Which is why I'm making a point to not fight at all to prevent you from being invisible and sneaking and ready for the party, nor am I taking any extra precautions against invisible threats (which begin before level ten anyway), because I intend to show that even given every advantage the fight is a lot more even than you claim. Hell, I even have high hopes that the wizard lives, which would be a Flawless Victory (in the immortal words of Mortal Kombat).






THere, that should be PLENTY of fodder for your bizzare and pointless nerd-rage: take two.

Quote from: Spike;571752(because you very, very specifically point out ambush devil/surprise round 'slaughter house'... so much so that we went for a dozen or so post about a reasonable expectation for Wizard HP at tenth level vs Bone Devil DPS over two rounds. So where, again, is this disagreement/agreement coming from?).

I mentioned it offhand in the same post I also mentioned three other encounters. That was the thing that other people wanted to focus on, but was in no way essential to my point.

Quote from: Spike;571752No, I am not sure you ever came out and SAID it, but every time we asked/pointed out that your senario involved only a wizard being mauled (in a full party of four, no less) you're responses were various shades of 'not a meaningful contribution',

Yes, I explained that the fighter does 9 damage, the Rogue does less because he can't get SA since the Bone Devil is not denied dex and can't be flanked, and the Clerics spells fail against the Bone Devil's SR/Saves, and aren't even that good. How dare I have done that????

Quote from: Spike;571752except for the cleric, which I CLEARLY recall you never once even acknowledging was there. No reason for the cleric to not heal the wizard, no reason for the cleric to not-cast anything really.

Quote from: me in that threadbecause he doesn't get Banishment until next level, and all his other spells either won't help or take a round to help, at which point the Bone Devil leaves. I mean, I guess, in retrospect, instead of doing less than 9 damage he should attempt to break SR 21 and +12/+11 saves for either Planeshift or Slay Living. Sure he has to succeed on a touch attack which could be stopped by an AoO, and it will fail anyway, but it's at least a shot at winning the fight, unlike attacking with a spear or casting Flame Strike.

Quote from: Spike;571752Which is why I'm making a point to not fight at all to prevent you from being invisible and sneaking and ready for the party, nor am I taking any extra precautions against invisible threats (which begin before level ten anyway),

That's good, because those wouldn't help you at all against the Vrock/Hamatula/Retriever/Herzrou/Elder Earth Elemental who would also kill half the party.

Sure chief, whatever.  Most of your points (fighter damage, SA) have already been addressed before, and will be again right here in this thread. At some point. When DeadDM or fectin or some random asshole stranger steps up and starts doing some DMing shit.

I do like your litany of things that will objectively TPK the party. I've encountered most of them as a player, and I'm sure I'd have remembered more details than that if they'd actually been, you know, a threat.

Given what you've said in the past I'm going to assume a combination of Damage Reduction/10 and (in some cases) flight are key reasons why 'those monsters'. Pro-tip: Players have had to deal with DR for 12 years now, and starting lower than level 10... though YOU seem to find it impossible to overcome. Before that it was flat out immunity, and yet players handled their shit there, too.  Second Pro-Tip: Flight is a lot more powerful if most encounters didn't occur in 'dungeons'.  On reason you see few ranged fighter or cavalry builds is because you don't see many fights happening in the open where these are really useful abilities.  Pro-tip 3: Monsters with save vs suck/flee/die have been on the table since, oh, third level or so.

Also: I like the fact that half of your list was actually CR 11. As CR comparisons were a recent topic of discussion 'round here, we know that these are 'tough' fights... sort of shy of 'boss fights', and we expect to lose 50% of the party resources... meaning its likely someone is gonna die.

But honestly? As a player I wouldn't be afraid of most of 'em. Maybe the earth elemental.... nah. Its a grind fight, thats all.

Naow: Ima laugh at myself at least once in the coming fight for missing something obvious (did I put some sort of ranged weapon on the fighter? I suspect not, actually... oh well) that in a real game I would have had.  But see? I got nothin' riding on this.  If I lose, well I'm not as good a player as I thought, or I just quick designed poorly, boohoo. But if you lose, well that might just crack you fantasy world, shattering your entire mind!  You have to win now, your entire identity as a gamer is riding on it!

Or...

Not.  

I'd say I'm gleefully waiting for your next post (because, man, you are one funny dude!), but I get up for work in six hours and I got shit to do. So I'm expecting a nice present in the morning, m'kay?

Am I back to DMing then?  

It sounds like Spikes possible objection (from another thread) has been resolved.  

Since nobody has stepped up.  I'll be happy to do so.  

A few things:

While it's possible to adjust monster skills and feats to make them more challenging, those adjustments will not be allowed in this case.  The point here is to play a 'standard' monster in an intelligent fashion, not to give an existing monster more sensible options and turn them into a more credible threat.  Further, if skills are chosen after items are assigned, it becomes a chicken or the egg kind of question - does the monster have skills that take advantage of these items BECAUSE he has these items, or does he have these items because he has the skill to use them.  

Thus, items that require a command-word, if randomly generated, won't be useable by a monster that doesn't have Use Magic Device as a 'default' skill.  

I will communicate with both parties regarding actions via PM.  I will have both parties make their own rolls (as necessary) using Invsible Castle, and ask them to post the link to the rolls.  I will adjudicate those actions and post them in this thread, making them 'official'.  

The 'action' will follow the PCs, which means Kaelik (and anyone reading this thread) will know what the PCs are doing.  If it were the DM controlling the monster, he would have this same information, so it shouldn't cause any problems.  I will enforce 'reasonable actions' from Kaelik.  Effectively, the audience will be aware of what the party is doing, but will not know what Kaelik is doing until the party encounterse him.  Kaelik will agree (like any good DM would) not to take any action that would be unreasonable in the situation.  Expecting interlopers falls into 'reasonable' category, and Kaelik will communicate any preparations he makes to the terrain (via PM) before the start of the scenario.  

In this discussion, it was agreed that a Bone Devil (or similar creature) would pose this challenge.  Kaelik may or may not be playing a Bone Devil for the first scenario.  If all parties are willing, we'll play it through a couple of times.

The set-up is as follows:  
A group of cultists recently kidnapped several villagers to sacrifice them in order to summon and bind a demon.  One villager escaped and told the village elders.  The village elders contacted a party of adventurers that had helped them two years ago with a troll threat.  The party agreed to help because they remember the villagers fondly, and one or more of the kidnapped villagers were people they personally like.  

The party anticipates encountering cultists and the demon if it has already been summoned.  

We will use the map Fectin provided for the first scenario.  Sometime tomorrow I'll re-post the characters Spike has created for ease of reference and to ensure that there is a character record that cannot be edited except by the DM.  Spike will have a chance to confirm that the stat blocks are correct and then we'll begin at the entrance of the dungeon.  

Any objections?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;571789Further, if skills are chosen after items are assigned, it becomes a chicken or the egg kind of question - does the monster have skills that take advantage of these items BECAUSE he has these items, or does he have these items because he has the skill to use them.

Since 70% of all items created by randomly rolling minor items are scrolls and UMD is the only skill that allows item use it would not be a chicken or egg, it would obviously be the case that any monster being designed to not suck would have UMD as a class skill, because to not do so is to choose to be stupid.

None the less in addition to being a level lower than the party, being forced to also have shitty choices for feats and miss out on the use of half (or more) of the use of my treasure is to be expected.

Quote from: Spike;571778Given what you've said in the past I'm going to assume a combination of Damage Reduction/10 and (in some cases) flight are key reasons why 'those monsters'.

You are stupid. All I did was list every single demon or devil of CR 9-11 (actually, I forgot the Beblith, but he also applies). I threw in the Earth Elemental on the grounds that I had recently read parts of the original thread, and it was one I specifically mentioned in that thread.

Quote from: Spike;571778Pro-tip 3: Monsters with save vs suck/flee/die have been on the table since, oh, third level or so.

And since my point was that by the book core parties get TPKed at pretty much all levels, that is relevant how?

Quote from: Spike;571778Also: I like the fact that half of your list was actually CR 11.

I like how you are playing a level 10 party against a CR 9 monster and complaining about the possibility of CR 11 monsters making up half the list while CR 9s make up the other half.

Quote from: Spike;571778As CR comparisons were a recent topic of discussion 'round here, we know that these are 'tough' fights... sort of shy of 'boss fights', and we expect to lose 50% of the party resources... meaning its likely someone is gonna die.

In the future, you should try actually learning the rules before talking about what you "know."

A single CR 11 monster is an example of an EL 10 encounter, or in other words, according to the DMG:

"These are challenging encounters, about equal in Encounter Level to the party level. The average adventuring group should be able to handle four challenging encounters before they run low on spells, hit points, and other resources."

So no, CR 11s are not expected to use up 50% of the parties resources.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;571789Am I back to DMing then?

If you don't, no one will.  I think you've got the job.

Subscribed!

Looking forward to seeing how this will end.

Eh: i thought we were assaulting a liche's lair for the phat lootz, but sure, helping out the smallfolk is good too.

I'm assuming we've got a time constraint, so no taking several days to scry the place out and use the eyeball spell the day prior?

Fectin had said low ceilings and lots of darkness where what I was getting from the eyes, so not a huge loss (stupid high level spell doesn't even let you use darkvision... bah).  In this case it sounds more like find out what the locals know about the area (assuming that, given the scenario that they are friendly and eager to help).  

Personally I agree with DeadDM that going around adding skills like UMD after the fact to take advantage of items (scrolls, say) that lie outside the monsters usual ecology is inappropriate. Save it for unique boss fights... not that we'll be doing one of those here, but I'll concede to a majority opinion from the peanut gallery.

Please review the revised stat blocks.  This is mostly to make it easier for me to read, but also to catch any errors.  Some you were aware of, but I've made notes for most of the changes, anyways.  If you have any objections, let me know.  


Dag Hammerskojld
Half-Orc Fighter 10
SZ M; HD 10d10+10; hp 73;
Init +4 (+0 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 21 (+11 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 21;
BAB/Grap +10/+16;
Full Atk +19/+14 melee (1d10+12 plus 2d6 to evil creatures/17-20x2, +1 Holy Heavy Flail;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA -; SQ darkvision 60-ft., half-orc traits;
AL CG;
SV Fort +9 (7 base, +1 Con, +1 resistance), Ref +4 (3 base, +1 resistance), Will +8 (3 base, +2 Wis, +1 resistance, +2 Iron Will);
Str 23, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6.

Skills: Climb +5* (4 ranks, +6 Str), Ride +4 (4 ranks), Intimidate +7 (9 ranks, -2 Chr) Swim +5* (9 ranks, +6 Str).
*includes Armor Check penalty (-5)
Feats: Blind Fight, Greater Weapon Focus [flail], Improved Critical [flail], Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, Power Attack, Weapon Focus [flail], Weapon Specialization [flail].

Possessions: +3 Full Plate, Belt of Ogre Strength +4, Cloak of Resistance +1, potion of cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) [x3], oil of silversheen.

Notes: You had your attack listed as +22/+17.  I calculate the attack bonus as +19/+14 (+10 BAB, +6 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Greater Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon).  I added Weapon Specialization to damage.  I didn't understand your skills, so look over what I have for you – if this isn't what you want, we can fix it.  

Jurgen Hammerskoljd
Human Cleric 10
SZ M; HD 10d8+20; hp 76;
Init +3 (-1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 22 (-1 Dex, +10 armor, +3 shield), touch 9, flat-footed 22;
BAB/Grap +7/+7;
Full Atk +8/+3 melee (1d8+1/20x2, +1 Heavy Mace;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA turn undead, spells; SQ -;
AL NG;
SV Fort +9 (7 base, +2 Con), Ref +2 (3 base, -1 Dex), Will +10 (7 base, +3 Wis);
Str 10, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 13.

Skills: Concentration +15 (13 ranks, +2 Con), Diplomacy +14 (13 ranks, +1 Cha), Knowledge [religion] +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int), Spellcraft +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int).

Feats: Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus [conjuration], Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (6/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 13 + spell level):
0—create water, detect magic [x3], guidance, read magic;
1st—cure light wounds*, bless [x2], detect evil [x2], divine favor;
2nd-align weapon, consecrate, cure moderate wounds*, inflict moderate wounds, spiritual weapon, summon monster II;
3rd – dispel magic, fly*, magic circle against evil, searing light, summon monster III,
4th – dimension door*, death ward, dismissal, restoration
5th – mass cure light wounds*, summon monster V, true seeing.
*denotes domain spell

Possessions: +2 Full Plate, +2 Light Shield, +1 Heavy Mace, minor circlet of blasting (+6 ranged touch 3d8 or 6d6 1/day), goggles of night, medallion of thoughts, oil of silversheen[x2], holy symbol (gold), holy symbol (wood), holy water [x4].

Notes: As far as I could tell, you had spent 42 skill points; you should have had 52 (16 at 1st level, plus 4 per level thereafter).  That's enough to have max ranks in 4 skills, so that's what I did.    Pelor doesn't grant access to the Travel Domain, but there's no reason Jurgen can't be dedicated to an ideal.  Healing and Travel would fit together for an order of battlefield medics, so I have no objections.  It appears you forgot bonus spells for a high Wisdom (one at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd).  I chose spells that seemed appropriate, but feel free to change them out if you like, or let me know if you want to leave those slots open to prepare additional spells later.    


Ambrose the Awesome
Human Wizard 10
SZ M; HD 10d4+30; hp 60;
Init +1 (+1 Dex);
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares);
AC 11 (+1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10;
BAB/Grap +5/+4;
Full Atk +4 melee (1d3-1/20x2, unarmed strike;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA spells; SQ familiar (rat);
AL CN;
SV Fort +8 (3 base, +3 Con, +2 familiar), Ref +4 (3 base, +1 Dex), Will +8 (7 base, +1 Wis);
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Skills: Concentration +16 or +20 to cast defensively (13 ranks, +3 Con, +4 Combat Casting), Decipher Script +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Profession (masseuse) +14 (13 ranks, +1 Wis), Knowledge [arcana] +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Knowledge [history] +11 (7 ranks, +4 Int), Spellcraft +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int).
 
Feats: Combat Casting, Extend Spell, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (4/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 14 + spell level):
0—disrupt undead [x3], mage hand [x3];
1st—feather fall, magic missile [x2], ray of enfeeblement [x2];
2nd-darkvision, false life, knock [x2], mirror image;
3rd – blink, dispel magic, fireball, fly
4th – black tentacles, dimension door [x2], greater invisibility
5th – extended stoneskin, prying eyes.

Possessions: [iHeadband of Intellect +2[/i], Amulet of Health +2, [ibead of force[/i], minor cloak of displacement potion of cure moderate wounds (2d8+3)[x2].

Notes: You had the AC listed as 14, but I couldn't see anything that increased the AC beyond the +1 Dex.  BAB is +5 (not +4).  I calculate the Fort save as +8, not +7. Ambrose should have 72 skill points – it's a pain because of his change in Intelligence modifier from +2 to +3 at 4th level, plus the additional skill point for being human.  I increased all chosen skill to max ranks (13) and then spent the remaining extra skill points on Knowledge [history]. Ambrose was short a feat, but he didn't have Spell Penetration listed, which is a prerequisite for Greater Spell Penetration.  I added bonus spells for high intelligence (plus one at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th).  Since I don't see what spells he has in his spellbook, I just added an additional preparation of a spell already chosen, except for dispel magic at 3rd.  The cloak of displacement does not specify if it is minor or major; I assume minor.

Gareth Three-Fingers, V
Dwarf Rogue 10
SZ M; HD 10d10+10; hp 73;
Init +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 20 (+4 Dex, +6 armor), touch 14, flat-footed 16;
BAB/Grap +7/+8;
Full Atk +12 ranged (1d10+1/19-20x2, +1 Heavy Crossbow;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA crippling strike, sneak attack +5d6; SQ darkvision 60-ft., dwarf traits, evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trapfinding, trap sense +3, uncanny dodge;
AL CN;
SV Fort +5 (3 base, +2 Con), Ref +11 (7 base, +4 Dex), Will +3 (3 base);
Str 12, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 6.

Skills: Appraise +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Disable Device +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Hide +22 (+13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Listen +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Move Silently +22 (13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Open Locks +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Search +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Spot +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Tumble +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Use Magic Device +11 (13 ranks, -2 Cha).

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload.

Possessions: +1 heavy crossbow, +2 mithril shirt of shadow and silent moves, Gloves of Dexterity +2, iron bands of binding, thieves' tools, dungeon gear, 5 adamantine bolts, 10 cold iron bolts, 10 alchemical silver bolts, 40 normal bolts

Notes: Gareth's AC didn't appear to include the full armor value.  You had your BAB listed as +8; it should be +7.  That forced me to adjust the attack bonus for the crossbow.  I calculate the Will save as +3, not +5.

Go for it DeadDM I am intrigued to see how this works out. (Kick ass Pika O'doom if you can).:)

I'm pressed for time, but I'll go over them fully this afternoon (about two hours from now?). Its been a few weeks, but I'll try to remember why Jurgen got a travel domain. As I recall, I could have simply left the name of his diety blank and picked two domains of my choosing, but I've never actually done that, so why start now?

The BaB change for teh fighter is proper. In my hurry I applied the strength and a half to both attacks and damage.*  I had a generic note on 'mundane equipment' for most of the party members, but didn't list anything. Do you want me to list some basic stuff like back up (mundane) weapons, rope etc?





* In my defense, I've never played a two hand fighter in 3.X. I'm a dually normally. I leave the big smack-sticks to barbarian fans... I didn't even know the strength and a half thing existed until about four years ago! :p

Yeah, it's an easy rule to forget especially since most opt players never use it. And very few non-opt players even know it's an option.  Given most know Drzzit and Aragon but little else.

I lied about not using two handed weapons in 3.x.... but I did it with Monkey Grip.

Is fun. Maybe not practical... but imagine running around with two huge freaking swords like some sorta later day doom-blender! you miss a lot.. but who cares! :D  *








* I lied again. I've only ever talked about dual weilding monkey gripped greatswords.*






*and again. I'm incorrigable! I really only talked about it this one time, on the internets...

You have to know you're my favorite Pika of all time Spike, no worries.*:D

*May you and your Pika loving daughter live long and prosper.:p

Quote from: deadDMwalking;571896Skills: Concentration +15 (13 ranks, +2 Con), Diplomacy +14 (13 ranks, +1 Cha), Knowledge [religion] +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int), Spellcraft +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int).

Feats: Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus [conjuration], Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (6/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 13 + spell level):
0—create water, detect magic [x3], guidance, read magic;
1st—cure light wounds*, bless [x2], detect evil [x2], divine favor;
2nd-align weapon, consecrate, cure moderate wounds*, inflict moderate wounds, spiritual weapon, summon monster II;
3rd – dispel magic, fly*, magic circle against evil, searing light, summon monster III,
4th – dimension door*, death ward, dismissal, restoration
5th – mass cure light wounds*, summon monster V, true seeing.
*denotes domain spell

Possessions: +2 Full Plate, +2 Light Shield, +1 Heavy Mace, minor circlet of blasting (+6 ranged touch 3d8 or 6d6 1/day), goggles of night, medallion of thoughts, oil of silversheen[x2], holy symbol (gold), holy symbol (wood), holy water [x4].

Notes: As far as I could tell, you had spent 42 skill points; you should have had 52 (16 at 1st level, plus 4 per level thereafter).  That’s enough to have max ranks in 4 skills, so that’s what I did.    Pelor doesn’t grant access to the Travel Domain, but there’s no reason Jurgen can’t be dedicated to an ideal.  Healing and Travel would fit together for an order of battlefield medics, so I have no objections.  It appears you forgot bonus spells for a high Wisdom (one at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd).  I chose spells that seemed appropriate, but feel free to change them out if you like, or let me know if you want to leave those slots open to prepare additional spells later.    

There was an improved spell list on the second page (for me... 6th maybe? for everyone else?), this comes up with wizard too.  The lack of bonus spells was because I was lazy and quick'n'durty.  I figured Kaelik wouldn't complain if I chose to short myself, and if I 'won' without bonuses, well, go me! In retrospect that was an unwise choice, since it would make it harder to honestly evaluate a failure on my part and looks like excuse prepping.  I honestly don't think this is gonna be decided by skills, so once I wrote down the 'important' ones I sorta left off.

QuoteAmbrose the Awesome
Human Wizard 10
SZ M; HD 10d4+30; hp 60;
Init +1 (+1 Dex);
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares);
AC 11 (+1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10;
BAB/Grap +5/+4;
Full Atk +4 melee (1d3-1/20x2, unarmed strike;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA spells; SQ familiar (rat);
AL CN;
SV Fort +8 (3 base, +3 Con, +2 familiar), Ref +4 (3 base, +1 Dex), Will +8 (7 base, +1 Wis);
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Skills: Concentration +16 or +20 to cast defensively (13 ranks, +3 Con, +4 Combat Casting), Decipher Script +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Profession (masseuse) +14 (13 ranks, +1 Wis), Knowledge [arcana] +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Knowledge [history] +11 (7 ranks, +4 Int), Spellcraft +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int).
 
Feats: Combat Casting, Extend Spell, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (4/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 14 + spell level):
0—disrupt undead [x3], mage hand [x3];
1st—feather fall, magic missile [x2], ray of enfeeblement [x2];
2nd-darkvision, false life, knock [x2], mirror image;
3rd – blink, dispel magic, fireball, fly
4th – black tentacles, dimension door [x2], greater invisibility
5th – extended stoneskin, prying eyes.

Possessions: [iHeadband of Intellect +2[/i], Amulet of Health +2, [ibead of force[/i], minor cloak of displacement potion of cure moderate wounds (2d8+3)[x2].

Notes: You had the AC listed as 14, but I couldn’t see anything that increased the AC beyond the +1 Dex.  BAB is +5 (not +4).  I calculate the Fort save as +8, not +7. Ambrose should have 72 skill points – it’s a pain because of his change in Intelligence modifier from +2 to +3 at 4th level, plus the additional skill point for being human.  I increased all chosen skill to max ranks (13) and then spent the remaining extra skill points on Knowledge [history]. Ambrose was short a feat, but he didn’t have Spell Penetration listed, which is a prerequisite for Greater Spell Penetration.  I added bonus spells for high intelligence (plus one at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th).  Since I don’t see what spells he has in his spellbook, I just added an additional preparation of a spell already chosen, except for dispel magic at 3rd.  The cloak of displacement does not specify if it is minor or major; I assume minor.

On Ambrose: The 14 is from Mage Armor, which is on that spell list. He went through some edits along the way, and has about 9k gold to spend. Keeping in mind that I don't want kaelik saying I deliberately shorted myself so I'd have an excuse if he won, I should probably spend that.  I didn't write down the Spell Pen feat because it is an obvious prereq that does the same thing. I should have mentioned that bit of shorthand, but you obviously worked it out.  I'll re-post the spell list at the end of this response. Again for all characters: rather than get into penny-ante fights over how many candles I could afford, I just left a few hundred gp off each WBL (minimum) and 'assume' conventional adventuring gear and only wrote down magic items. If everyone is cool with me having, say, a crowbar out my ass I'll continue this was, otherwise I'll knock out the 'standard kit' and post that before we begin. I WILL go ahead and note mundane weapons (which were left off because:Mundane).

QuoteGareth Three-Fingers, V
Dwarf Rogue 10
SZ M; HD 10d10+10; hp 73;
Init +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 20 (+4 Dex, +6 armor), touch 14, flat-footed 16;
BAB/Grap +7/+8;
Full Atk +12 ranged (1d10+1/19-20x2, +1 Heavy Crossbow;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA crippling strike, sneak attack +5d6; SQ darkvision 60-ft., dwarf traits, evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trapfinding, trap sense +3, uncanny dodge;
AL CN;
SV Fort +5 (3 base, +2 Con), Ref +11 (7 base, +4 Dex), Will +3 (3 base);
Str 12, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 6.

Skills: Appraise +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Disable Device +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Hide +22 (+13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Listen +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Move Silently +22 (13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Open Locks +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Search +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Spot +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Tumble +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Use Magic Device +11 (13 ranks, -2 Cha).

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload.

Possessions: +1 heavy crossbow, +2 mithril shirt of shadow and silent moves, Gloves of Dexterity +2, iron bands of binding, thieves’ tools, dungeon gear, 5 adamantine bolts, 10 cold iron bolts, 10 alchemical silver bolts, 40 normal bolts

Notes: Gareth’s AC didn’t appear to include the full armor value.  You had your BAB listed as +8; it should be +7.  That forced me to adjust the attack bonus for the crossbow.  I calculate the Will save as +3, not +5.

Huh. Well, if I made an error, I made an error. I'll dig up my scratch pad and look over the original post. Gareth had some cash too, so I should probably put a bit more effort into squeezing him full for the same reasons as above.  you forgot his completely non-mechanical peg leg and eye patch! That could matter damnit! (uh... nevermind...).



As a note: Every character has (or should have) some form of Darkvision.  The Wiz has it as a spell. Thus they don't need torches, lanterns or light spells.  Not that it particularly matters, mind.
The Wiz runs with Mage Armor, Stoneskin (extended to 10 hours), Darkvision and False Life (d10+10 extra HP). That would be his default dungeon load, with Stoneskin being 'droppable' in favor of an extra 5'er if scrying demanded.

Spells not memorized currently included the prying eyes at a minimum, along with other 'pre-dungeon' scouting spells. If necessary I can submit a list of likely spells he'd want to know for approval.  Everything these guys have got is absolutely core, except for set dressing stuff I did as inside jokes (peg legs, light coats of baby oil... that sort of thing...)

Quote from:  me from several weeks agoUpdated 'deeper' spell list (minor changes only, added bonus spells for stats)
Domain Powers: Freedom of movement up to 10 rounds/day, +1 caster level on healing spells
Spells:
0- Create water, Detect Magic (3), Guidance, Read Magic
1- (Cure Light), Detect Evil (2), Bless (2)
2- (Cure Moderate) Align Weapon, Conscrate, Spiritual Weapon, Summon II, Remove Paralysis
3- (Fly) Summon III (2), Searing Light, Dispell Magic
4- (Dimension Door) Dismissal, Death Ward, Restoration
5- (Cure Light, Mass) Summon V, True Seeing

1- Ray of Enfeeblement (2), Feather Fall, Magic Missile Mage Armor
2- Darkvision, Knock, False Life, Mirror Image, Glitterdust
3- Fly, Blink, Fireball, Halt Undead
4- Invis-Greater, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor
5- Extended Stoneskin, Hold Monster

Bolded long term buffs for visibility.  I noted in the backstory that the Bro (wizard) is a selfish and cowardly git that doesn't trust the party to save his bacon (or something vaguely like that). Also the 'GM' of this campaign seems to like 'geek the mage' and 'closet troll' encounters (based on kaeliks stated opening gambit it seems like a due cause to believe the the monsters at this table do this ALL.THE.TIME.  So the 'party' plans accordingly.  No, I have no intention of forcing Kaelik to keep to that robotic scripting.  He's free to bluff the players (me).  Technically I thought this was an undead lair that happened to have an unexpected demon, which is why there are absolutely useless (but appropriate) undead specific spells. Unless the party has a day or two to prepare for demon worshippers instead, they'll remain.


False Life D10 Roll for Ambrose (http://http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3656135/)

So... he's got 20 more HP from False Life. You should be able to see that was a first time die roll for Spike, if I understand this 'invisible castle' place at all correctly, as well as the previous hp rolls? I can roll again or go with the statistically average 15 too.  I'm easy.


Second Edit:  Found why I gave Travel domain to the cleric. It's in the Wiki entry! (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelor)   I used a non-standard source due to my unfortunate seperation from my library.  Beats calling up the house to have 'em answer simple trivia questions. I have since then managed (at LAST) to get PDF core books, but the SRD internet is still faster!!

When I was looking back over the thread, I missed the 'improved' spell list.  Reposting was important to me to

1) Make it easier to read
2) Get everything in the same place

I have no objections with not having defined your non-magical gear, but I wouldn't mind if you wanted to cover it in detail.  I didn't repost the notes about what type of gear each person had, but you did say, so if it falls into that category (like rope, pitons, etc) I don't have a problem with you having it.  Something more unusual (like a portable battering ram) I'd assign a percent chance to having (probably pretty low).  

We'll work out any of those details before contact is made.  No reason we can't get started.

Well, while I'm noshing out some minor administrative details, what I'd really like to know is the lead time: How much the party knows and how much time they can prepare.

Tossing off demon summoners and kidnapping victims tends to imply that the party has to move quickly. That they are familiar with the local village implies they may already have some knowledge of the local area, including previous clears of the local dungeon (low probability, but that's a DM's area... and DM are lazy. I know, I am one)

I have to dig up my notes to make sure I have the right gp totals before I spend.

Introduction

The party appears in the center of the town of Sunny Vale.  After having helped the town almost two years ago with encroachment by trolls, the party had given Village Headman Tomas a feather token to send a written message if he should ever need help.  In moments you're whisked to his ramshackle office in the city hall.  Along with himself, a young girl with straw colored hair awaits your arrival.

"Friends," Tomas offers with obvious relief at seeing you, "I'm glad you could come so quickly.  I don't know what to do.  I didn't want to call you if it wasn't truly important, but I feel our town is on the razor's edge."

"Four days ago several villagers disappeared.  Of course, we were worried, but we wouldn't normally bother you with such minor things.  We spoke to Sir Gerald d'Belmont and he, along with his huntsman and several men-at-arms tried to track them down.  Now they've disappeared too.  We haven't seen or heard from them since they left three days ago."

"I'd still not know what to do, but little Eileen just arrived back in the village a few hours ago.  She says that she was getting water when she heard some strange music.  She couldn't help but follow it, and she was kidnapped by some men in bright saffron robes with orange trim.  She was put in a cell with several other villagers.  She believes that they were going to be sacrificed to bring forth 'the cleansing flame'.  The only person she heard a name or title for is 'the Primarch'.  He seemed to believe that the world would burn, and a new, more wonderful world would emerge.  The villagers were to be a sacrifice to help bring this evil plan to fruition.  When the villagers were taken from the cell, she hid in the bedding, and they seem to have gotten careless.  They left the cell unlocked and she escaped.  That was two days ago.  It took her some time to find her way back.  At this point, we don't know what happened to the other villagers, and whether they're alive or dead.  We fear the worst.  And if this primarch", Village Headman Tomas spits out the unfamiliar word, "has done as he plans, I fear it could go well beyond that."  

The young girl nods to confirm the elements of the story, clearly upset by recent events.

OOC Notes
We'll assume the party is fully rested and didn't use any spells getting here.  This can be first thing in the morning, and since the party did not have combat yesterday, you're free to change out spells as desired.  You do not need to investigate immediately, but if there is a chance the villagers are still alive, any delay may change that.  The villagers will understand if you can't rush off to 'save the day' immediately, but they'll resent any delay all the same.

Also, did you see the edits to the big post?

To keep things moving

Identitfying the men from the description. I'm assuming Knowledge Religion and/or knowledge history  

The music sounds like a Spellcraft check or possibly an K:Arcana check.

Jurgen would also use Diplomacy to sooth and reassure the villagers, both as an RP events, but also in case it helps them be more helpful/forthcoming. I am assuming that we can place on a crude local map the location given by the little girl?  (ie: no real work necessary to find where she escaped from?)

I feel a bit wrong footed re:Spell lists, since they have 'going into dungeon spells' rather than 'research' spells (not even an augery? What the hell was I thnking?) but I'ma roll with it, 'cause I'm that faaking bad-ass.

Dag, of course, will just ask to talk to the local hunters who know the area to see if anyone has seen anything useful. Gareth scowls and mutters to himself that there's no damn money innit.

I'll note that Ambrose is currently unbuffed, and drinking something foamy. And probably leering at a milkmaid innappropriately.

Small point:

In a previous post, Spike claims he will extend Stoneskin to 10 hours.

I seriously doubt he has that ability, since even extended, his Caster Level would have to be 35. Since I assume his CL is not 35, I assume his Stoneskin, whenever it is cast, will not be 10 hours long.

Quote from: Kaelik;571963Small point:

In a previous post, Spike claims he will extend Stoneskin to 10 hours.

I seriously doubt he has that ability, since even extended, his Caster Level would have to be 35. Since I assume his CL is not 35, I assume his Stoneskin, whenever it is cast, will not be 10 hours long.

You are correct, as the original Stoneskin description was 'close to three hours', and was a good ballpark.  The ten hour comment was made three weeks after the character was made while confusing extended stone skin with the other 1 hour/level buffs, which it is not.

Stoneskin is 10min/level, or 100 minutes. Extended Stoneskin is 200 minutes, or three hours and twenty minutes.

Either way its long enough to get some serious adventuring mileage out of it.

Intro (Continued)
Jurgen sketches a symbol with charcoal on a loose page of parchment.  "Is this the symbol you saw?"

Eileen nods.  

Knowledge (religion) (1d20+14=27) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3656428/)

Jurgen tells the group what he knows.  "The symbol is from the Society of the Phoenix.  They believe that people are wicked and that the world will burn in hellfire, and from the ashes the pure will build a new society.  They work to summon demons and devils into the world to begin the burning."

Knowledge [history] (1d20+11=13) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3656429/)

Ambrose adds, "I've never heard of any members of the cult having been active in this area.  

Spellcraft (1d20+17=36) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3656432/)

"But I do recognize what magic was used, or at least, I think I have a good idea.  A bard's music can fascinate, and he could easily implant a suggestion that anyone hearing the music follow him.  His music can make his allies stronger, and he likely has charmed some of the cultists.  They may not all be in their right minds."  

Diplomacy (1d20+14=30) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3656436/)

Jurgen reassures the Village Headman, "We'll look into this.  If there's any chance your people are alive, we'll save them.  If not, we'll at least ensure they're brought back for a proper burial and your new neighbors won't bother you any more."  Jurgen then crouches down and asks the girl to sketch a rough map of the location of the cave.  

Scrutinizing the map, Gareth observes, "This looks like it's beyond the distance we travled when we dealt with the troll problem.  About a 6 hour walk."

The headman offers, "We will happily provide horses if that helps."

Gareth scowls and makes the correction, "About two and a half hours, then.  But there's no damn money in it!"  

Gather Information (1d20-2=3) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3656440/)
Dag, silent so far, excuses himself to ask any local hunters or woodsman if they have any information of use.  Unfortunately, he can't ever seem to steer the conversation away from how grateful the villagers are that he's here to help.  The mysterious disappearance of their fellow townsfolk and their local lord has them on edge.  More than a few are making preparations in case a quick escape is necessary.  

OOC Notes
Reposted characters with updated spell list.  You can still change these spells out since you haven't missed your window of opportunity for preparation for the day.

Spoiler

Dag Hammerskojld
Half-Orc Fighter 10
SZ M; HD 10d10+10; hp 73;
Init +4 (+0 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 21 (+11 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 21;
BAB/Grap +10/+16;
Full Atk +19/+14 melee (1d10+12 plus 2d6 to evil creatures/17-20x2, +1 Holy Heavy Flail;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA -; SQ darkvision 60-ft., half-orc traits;
AL CG;
SV Fort +9 (7 base, +1 Con, +1 resistance), Ref +4 (3 base, +1 resistance), Will +8 (3 base, +2 Wis, +1 resistance, +2 Iron Will);
Str 23, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6.

Skills: Climb +5* (4 ranks, +6 Str), Ride +4 (4 ranks), Intimidate +7 (9 ranks, -2 Chr) Swim +5* (9 ranks, +6 Str).
*includes Armor Check penalty (-5)
Feats: Blind Fight, Greater Weapon Focus [flail], Improved Critical [flail], Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, Power Attack, Weapon Focus [flail], Weapon Specialization [flail].

Possessions: +3 Full Plate, Belt of Ogre Strength +4, Cloak of Resistance +1, potion of cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) [x3], oil of silversheen.



Jurgen Hammerskoljd
Human Cleric 10
SZ M; HD 10d8+20; hp 76;
Init +3 (-1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 22 (-1 Dex, +10 armor, +3 shield), touch 9, flat-footed 22;
BAB/Grap +7/+7;
Full Atk +8/+3 melee (1d8+1/20x2, +1 Heavy Mace;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA turn undead, spells; SQ -;
AL NG;
SV Fort +9 (7 base, +2 Con), Ref +2 (3 base, -1 Dex), Will +10 (7 base, +3 Wis);
Str 10, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 13.

Skills: Concentration +15 (13 ranks, +2 Con), Diplomacy +14 (13 ranks, +1 Cha), Knowledge [religion] +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int), Spellcraft +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int).

Feats: Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus [conjuration], Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (6/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 13 + spell level):
0—create water, detect magic [x3], guidance, read magic;
1st—cure light wounds*, bless [x2], detect evil [x2], divine favor;
2nd-align weapon, consecrate, cure moderate wounds*, remove paralysis, spiritual weapon, summon monster II;
3rd – dispel magic, fly*, searing light, summon monster III [x2],
4th – dimension door*, death ward, dismissal, restoration
5th – mass cure light wounds*, summon monster V, true seeing.
*denotes domain spell

Possessions: +2 Full Plate, +2 Light Shield, +1 Heavy Mace, minor circlet of blasting (+6 ranged touch 3d8 or 6d6 1/day), goggles of night, medallion of thoughts, oil of silversheen[x2], holy symbol (gold), holy symbol (wood), holy water [x4].



Ambrose the Awesome
Human Wizard 10
SZ M; HD 10d4+30; hp 60;
Init +1 (+1 Dex);
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares);
AC 11 (+1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10;
BAB/Grap +5/+4;
Full Atk +4 melee (1d3-1/20x2, unarmed strike;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA spells; SQ familiar (rat);
AL CN;
SV Fort +8 (3 base, +3 Con, +2 familiar), Ref +4 (3 base, +1 Dex), Will +8 (7 base, +1 Wis);
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Skills: Concentration +16 or +20 to cast defensively (13 ranks, +3 Con, +4 Combat Casting), Decipher Script +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Profession (masseuse) +14 (13 ranks, +1 Wis), Knowledge [arcana] +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Knowledge [history] +11 (7 ranks, +4 Int), Spellcraft +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int).
 
Feats: Combat Casting, Extend Spell, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (4/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 14 + spell level):
0—disrupt undead [x3], mage hand [x3];
1st—feather fall, mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement [x2];
2nd-darkvision, false life, glitterdust, knock, mirror image;
3rd – blink, fireball, fly, halt undead
4th – black tentacles, dimensional anchor, dimension door, greater invisibility
5th – extended stoneskin, hold monster.

Possessions: [iHeadband of Intellect +2[/i], Amulet of Health +2, [ibead of force[/i], minor cloak of displacement potion of cure moderate wounds (2d8+3)[x2].



Gareth Three-Fingers, V
Dwarf Rogue 10
SZ M; HD 10d10+10; hp 73;
Init +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 20 (+4 Dex, +6 armor), touch 14, flat-footed 16;
BAB/Grap +7/+8;
Full Atk +12 ranged (1d10+1/19-20x2, +1 Heavy Crossbow;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA crippling strike, sneak attack +5d6; SQ darkvision 60-ft., dwarf traits, evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trapfinding, trap sense +3, uncanny dodge;
AL CN;
SV Fort +5 (3 base, +2 Con), Ref +11 (7 base, +4 Dex), Will +3 (3 base);
Str 12, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 6.

Skills: Appraise +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Disable Device +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Hide +22 (+13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Listen +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Move Silently +22 (13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Open Locks +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Search +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Spot +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Tumble +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Use Magic Device +11 (13 ranks, -2 Cha).

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload.

Possessions: +1 heavy crossbow, +2 mithril shirt of shadow and silent moves, Gloves of Dexterity +2, iron bands of binding, thieves' tools, dungeon gear, 5 adamantine bolts, 10 cold iron bolts, 10 alchemical silver bolts, 40 normal bolts

I was hoping to know more about this Primarch figure, does that figure in?

Also, does this Order of the Phoenix cult murder people or just... brainwash them? or no precedent.

Dag, of course, happily basks in the accolades he's getting and assures the townsfolk that he all set ta bash heads for the Sun!

If it sounds more like brainwashing then sacrifice, then Jurgen would take the time to pray for various divination magics and Ambrose would, at a minimum have his Prying Eyes scout not just the dungeon, but the area around it for traps, reinforcements and even stray orange-robes that could be captured and interrogated.

Assuming that they traveled here at least overnight, I think the following 'swap outs' could be considered 'fair'

Jurgen:

Swap Summon V for Commune
Swap Restoration for Divination. I'm tempted to swap out another for Imbue with Spells, but that would be 'making the case' for Kaelic, so no. As PbP as this feels, its Thunderdome.
Swap Consecrate and Summon II  for Augery x2

Ambrose:
Swap Hold Monster for prying eyes, swap E.SS for Contact Outer Plane
Swap Black Tentacles for Scrying,
Swap Halt Undead for Arcane Sight


Assumption: It is easily possible that the party could simply scry down one of the minor npcs that were taken, which would take them deep into the 'dungeon', via teleport. However, since we're here to fight a bone devil on the other side of a door, we'll assume they would prefer to hold teleports in reserve instead.

Also: Slight Cheese tactic: What time of Day to clerics of Pelor pray? As a sun god I'm sure its either Dawn or Noon, but I don't know for sure. I've timed 'actions' in games around cleric prayer before (woohoo for extra spells!!!), and starting off just before prayer time means the cleric, at least, can go all out.  Less aggressively, it could mean that he simply divines, then leaves immedeatly for the dungeon with 'combat load', putting the spell work all on him for the prep phase.  Normally these sorts of strategic moves would be honed over several levels worth of play, of course.

Assumed plan of action: via spell recon.

I would like to have started with Prying Eyes, but I believe the area described  is much farther than a mile from the village, so no go.  Gareth will stealth his way to the area where the girl was at when she was taken in order to keep and eye out for orange-robes (presume that is much closer to village), possible for a grab and interrogate. If he doesn't see any within a few hours he'll return.

Before he goes, one Augury to ask yes/no if the party has time rescue the villagers. I can refine the phrasing if necessary. (do we need to leave 'today' to save the villagers).  The Second augury would be 'is there a good chance Gareth can succeed in his mission alone?' with his mission, of course, being to find an orange robe or ally to capture and bring back for interrogation.  Obviously it would have to be possible to find a target, and likely for him to be able to capture one (so, finding hundreds of orange robes marching on teh village would be a 'no' then... right?)

The next would be Divination:  What is the most important thing that Jurgen doesn't know that could cause the quest to fail?

Also: Did Eileen bring back even a scrap of orange cloth, or a bit of hair maybe (not necessarily intentionally) that could be used as a focus for scrying?  Otherwise Ambrose is gonna have to grill her for the best description he can get of the leader of the orange robes (or whomever she can best describe), maybe a villager can draw a picture from her description (damn: See, had I played a party using scrying before, I'd have profession:police sketch artist in the party!  :)

Anyway: I think I should wait for answers before moving on.

Since I don't have three other players to spitball with, I figure it fair if I ask the peanut gallery for any ideas on solid yes/no questions for Commune. I'm waiting to get feedback from existing actions before I really sweat the Commune. Sort of blitzing this hard. Got mah game face on!


Also: As everyone knows, sending out a lone party member is asking for death. So I'm sure the party has a good tactical practice, Dag can hang back from Gareth 250 feet or so (-25 to spot or listen for him, offsetting his abysmal stealth, yet sort of close enough that they can run to one another in a few rounds. (Full withdraw from Gareth is 40 feet a turn, Dead Run from Dag is 80, so within two rounds they can be 'together'. It would be amusing if they both died to Bone Devil in the woods, but it would be equally amusing if they killed bone devil in the woods... not that I expect to meet bone devil in the woods, just sayin'.)

Quote from: Spike;572027I was hoping to know more about this Primarch figure, does that figure in?

The knowledge checks you made didn't give you any more information.  

Quote from: Spike;572027Also, does this Order of the Phoenix cult murder people or just... brainwash them? or no precedent.

No real precedent.  Effectively, this is a cult of like-minded people spread around the world, but individual leaders may emphasize a different element of doctrine.  By and large, the group is dedicated to bringing out the wholesale destruction of all societies, and murder doesn't USUALLY help with that, but if it does, they'd be all over it like stink on a monkey.  

Quote from: Spike;572027If it sounds more like brainwashing then sacrifice, then Jurgen would take the time to pray for various divination magics and Ambrose would, at a minimum have his Prying Eyes scout not just the dungeon, but the area around it for traps, reinforcements and even stray orange-robes that could be captured and interrogated.

Could go either way.  Since as a cleric of Pelor he'll get new spells at noon, I don't have a problem with 'new spell preparation cheese'.  

Quote from: Spike;572027Assuming that they traveled here at least overnight, I think the following 'swap outs' could be considered 'fair'

Jurgen:
Swap Summon V for Commune
Swap Restoration for Divination. I'm tempted to swap out another for Imbue with Spells, but that would be 'making the case' for Kaelic, so no. As PbP as this feels, its Thunderdome.
Swap Consecrate and Summon II  for Augery x2

You've arrived in town with the spells you indicated you'd have prepared.  Before the summon from the village, you may have expected 'normal combat'.  Whatever the case, no swapping Jurgen's spells, but as noted, you can prepare new spells at noon.  It's a question of whether or not you're willing to move fast or spend some extra time to collect additional reconnaissance.  Your call.

Quote from: Spike;572027Ambrose:
Swap Hold Monster for prying eyes, swap E.SS for Contact Outer Plane
Swap Black Tentacles for Scrying,
Swap Halt Undead for Arcane Sight

Since Ambrose is rested and has not swapped spells out today, I have no objection.

Quote from: Spike;572027I would like to have started with Prying Eyes, but I believe the area described  is much farther than a mile from the village, so no go.

The area described is more than a mile away.    

Quote from: Spike;572027Gareth will stealth his way to the area where the girl was at when she was taken in order to keep and eye out for orange-robes (presume that is much closer to village), possible for a grab and interrogate. If he doesn't see any within a few hours he'll return.

After a few hours, he has not spotted a target.

Quote from: Spike;572027Before he goes, one Augury to ask yes/no if the party has time rescue the villagers. I can refine the phrasing if necessary. (do we need to leave 'today' to save the villagers).

Unless you want to wait until after noon to have preprared different spells, this won't work.  I'll let you confirm before I provide the results for this or the second augury.

Quote from: Spike;572027Also: Did Eileen bring back even a scrap of orange cloth, or a bit of hair maybe (not necessarily intentionally) that could be used as a focus for scrying?  Otherwise Ambrose is gonna have to grill her for the best description he can get of the leader of the orange robes (or whomever she can best describe), maybe a villager can draw a picture from her description (damn: See, had I played a party using scrying before, I'd have profession:police sketch artist in the party!  :)

She doesn't have much information.  He wore a robe that concealed his face, and she was hiding under bedding when the prisoners were taken from their cells.  Pressing her for information is unhelpful.  

Quote from: Spike;572027Anyway: I think I should wait for answers before moving on.

Let me know what other clarification you need, and we'll go from there.

Well, if Gareth already did his snooping, then I'll save an augury then once I get them.

So Noon: Pray.  Afternoon and morning:cast and move, Noon:Pray 'back', afternoon: Assault dungeon?

Sort of vague plan thing going there.

For Jurgen, that means keeping Prying Eyes until late. The party will plan on travelling from (two and a half hours by horse you say?  Hmm... Jurgen will cast it in the late afternoon, the party will travel (Jurgen will have his prying eyes up and 'patrolling' for not-quite one mile ahead and around the party, recalling an eye roughly every mile (but keeping at least three or four handy (10+d4 eyes total) to review for potential ambushes/monsters/phoenix patrols what have you, and planning to camp for the night  before it gets too dark for the eyes (summer time-ish, since you haven't mentioned cold/snow) to see, just within 'eye range' of the dungeon area, using the the remaining eyes to scout the quest area as best they can, then recalling them. If its a full moon (so some light at night) he'll keep 2 eyes to patrol around the camp while he rests, recalling them before the spell ends (they won't 'help' anything, but he'll have whatever they see.), and he'll prepare spells in the morning while Jurgen 'blows his wad.

Hmm... Ambrose will probably cast his 10 hour buffs that he still has just before going to bed, so he'll be protected in his sleep and in the morning. Sadly he can't pull Jurgen's trick of buffing then praying... alas.

But I think I'm ahead of schedule here.

So, where am I? morning-ish in the village with no divinations? Gareth being sneaky but useless in the woods?

Well: Jurgen's gonna have to Scry blindly then, I guess.  If there is a decent sketch that's cool, otherwise its straight up 'second hand information'. I picked Jurgen for scrying duty because his components are cheap frip, vs the 100 gp of holy water.

EDIT::: Forgot! He's gonna use his Darkvision and Arcane Sight spells before he scrys! They work through scrying as best I can tell.

My next post is gonna have to be backfill on the characters or it won't get done!
:eek:

Okay.  My understanding of the plan is as follows:

1) It is morning now.  You will prepare new spells at noon and cast them.
2) After casting the newly prepared spells, you'll travel to the dungeon.  
3) After arriving at the dungeon, you'll rest.
4) At noon the next day you'll prepare new spells and enter the dungeon.

Is that correct?  

Let's say it's 11 am now, so you can still cast any currently prepared cleric spells that are useful, and still prepare new ones.  

When declaring actions, please be as clear as possible.  If we need to take them one at a time, that's no problem.  I'll usually keep a very close eye on this thread.

Apologies if I walk over someone's post:

Standard Adventurer's Kit (things every party has)
Everyone has at least one dagger as a backup.
Dag has at least a composite shortbow and 50 arrows, plus some throwing hatchets for quick grab and toss situations.  Gareth has at least a short sword somewhere, maybe two. Normally by this point they could have expected to see MW drops as junk loot to scavenge from, but we'll skip that and keep it simple.

The party has at least two coils of rope, split between members, probably silk at this point. Likewise a couple dozen pitons and a hand sledgehammer.

Everyone has chalk. And candles.  and charcoal and a couple of sheets of cheap ass parchement (probably used and scraped clean, but that's outside of D&D's scope).

Since there is at least one Hewards Haversack or bag of holding in the party (that's for Ambrose, who I KNOW has the cash), as good 'delvers' (specializing in going into ruins and holes in the ground) they'll have at least two pick-axes, shoves and work axes. Two, or even three grappling hooks

On the matter of redundancy: In a D&D game I wouldn't really care if the party had spare grappling hooks or axes or what have you. Spare rope? Sure, the guy carrying it might be the one to fall or get carried off by bird men, whatever.  But all these spares? That's because I know in real life shit gets lost or broken all the time.  Also: A couple of dozen pitons doesn't cover it,really. I (a player) use them constantly in 'non-piton' ways, like jamming doors open (or shut!) and others. beeswax, maybe 'earplugs' if something like that exists, otherwise, that's one use for a couple of pounds of wax.

Anyway, back to the list.

Crowbar, a bullseye lantern (stowed), flint and steel (for everyone) at least one oil flast (for everyone), with spares in the Hewards. By this point they've probably made their own everburning torches (but not this party, for simplicity). They will have a length of chain and a block and tackle, both for heavy moving AND occasionally to tie up something too strong for rope, and a set of manacles. Why? Because fucking Hewards, thats why!

They will have climbing kits, a healers kit (probably left over from low levels when it mattered a lot more), obviously spell book(s?) and spell component pouches for Ambrose.  They will have a spyglass and some empty vials in case they have to collect some liquid for some unknown reason.

Everyone will have holy water on their person (and a wineskin). Too many things will 'infect' characters that need washing off.  With one or the other. Each character would also have emergency iron rations and drinkable water (with more food and water in heward's...)

Ambrose will have a pony keg of brewskis as part of his religious obligations. Fucking Hewards is probably full holding all of that.

Ambrose and Jurgen are likely to have writing kits and additional paper, and Jurgen probably has a signet ring.

Yes, they also have spare clothing.  

Ambrose also has lots and lots of components. Some pricy component too, at least enough for one full day of 'combat casting'. Yes, I'm being vague, this is a test of an ordinary party in one fight, plus lead up, not an accounting test. I think the really pricey stuff (raise dead diamonds) aren't even on the spell list, as it lies far outside the scope of this Thunderdome (though: a tenth level party with a cleric? Yeah, they'll try to have at least one emergency diamond handy for those unexpected mid-quest deaths...)

Hokay! THat done, lets look at the more 'big ticket' stuff. Everyone's individual budget:

Dag: 2k

Jurgen: 8.5k

Ambrose: 14k (minus the hewards, 12k)

Gareth: 3.5k

Lets just remove 1k from the equation to cover miscellany above, shall we? so remove the extra from Gareth and Jurgen. I assume some fungibility here, so if Dag needs an extra K, he can squeeze it out of, oh, Gareth or something.  Obviously we could have at least one Emergency Diamond here, but we won't. If Ambrose goes to the Brah in the sky, well, everyone hates him (ditto Gareth, who will just be replaced by Gareth the Sixth anyway.), and Dag is too confident to waste money on insurance. Jurgen, for his part, would be doing the casting, so why would he spend HIS money. Not like they'd Raise him if he died.  Yes, they are disfunctional.

Lessee: Wand of Silence 4.5k,  Wand of Delay Poison 4.5k  Scrolls: Break Enchantment, 2x Glitterdust, 1 Enervation... and I'm pooped on scrolls. Mass back-end selection is HARD.

Hokay: Dag will have a bundle of +1 adamantium arrows that he keeps in reserve for DR fights, and an alchemical silver shortsword they pushed on him against his wishes, for werewolves an' shit, which wipes him out easy.

Jurgen still has 3.5k...  Bah, cloak of resistance +1 and an Elemental Gem, Earth, for emergencies.

Ambrose:  uh... potions of neutralize poison, and magic circle against evil?

Gareth: Efficient Quiver (oh, how the poetry is gone!), 50 Ghost Touch bolts.
He's got the mundane short sword for stabbity-stabbity. He keeps a mix of bolts in the quiver, along with the sword.


There, that should be everything. Each caster has 1 of the wands J:Delay, A:Silence, but A's got the scrolls.
And I will probably NEVER volunteer to create a party of tenth level characters from scratch ever again. Yeesh!

No problems.

What spells are you casting before noon?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;572048Okay.  My understanding of the plan is as follows:

1) It is morning now.  You will prepare new spells at noon and cast them.
2) After casting the newly prepared spells, you'll travel to the dungeon.  
3) After arriving at the dungeon, you'll rest.
4) At noon the next day you'll prepare new spells and enter the dungeon.

Is that correct?  

Let's say it's 11 am now, so you can still cast any currently prepared cleric spells that are useful, and still prepare new ones.  

When declaring actions, please be as clear as possible.  If we need to take them one at a time, that's no problem.  I'll usually keep a very close eye on this thread.

Sure: Well, since I'm burning the 'combat load' just before praying, I'll cast Detect Evil and True Seeing, in hopes of finding any disguised spies or monsters in the village, and Guidance on Gareth so he can try a Get Information... can I have Ambrose 'back him up' (assistance)?  I figure since Dag already tried and failed, he's done for the day with that particular schtick.  Looking for anything useful about the area, even if it's just so that later I can maybe get a situational bonus for knowing about a hidden deer trail or something, though, of course, I'd like something more concrete to help pin down my divinatory questions.

WIth that I'm 'signing off' for the night. I be gettin' by on 4 hours a night too many nights in a row, so I'm shooting for 8! :duh:

Enjoy your sleep.  

When you return, I want you to confirm the spells that you're casting.  I'll provide that information.  

The villagers don't really have anything helpful that will matter - nothing jumps you on the way to the cave.  

The Entrance
The cave itself is set into the side of a cliff.  It appears to have once been a burial vault, ancient in it's construction.  The massive marble doors have collapsed outward over the centuries, too heavy by far for the stout oak hinges.  

The opening lies unobstructed, but two figures can clearly be seen.  Both are wearing saffron and orange robes, but both are just as obviously dead.  Blood stains the robes.  One is posed leaned against the wall, one arm upraised as if waving.  The other looks to be beckoning you forward, the hand frozen in a 'come hither' position by rigor mortis.  Between the two, written in blood now turning the color of rust is the word 'WELCOME' in common.  In smaller letters, almost illegible is the addition, 'please wipe your feet'.  

Both the figures and the writing is inside the doorway - not a single drop of blood has crossed to your side of the threshhold.

1) Augury only effects the immediate future. To quote, "The augury can see into the future only about half an hour, so anything that might happen after that does not affect the result." So unless you think you are going to save the people in 30 minutes, then that's not a very good question to ask.

2) Augury/Divination have an expensive material component, so if you are going to be casting those a lot, you should account for it.

3) That whole noon casting trick you think you are doing doesn't work:

"As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."

From the Preparing Divine Spells section of the SRD.

Quote from: Kaelik;5721093) That whole noon casting trick you think you are doing doesn't work:

"As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."

From the Preparing Divine Spells section of the SRD.

Thank you.  I had forgotten about that, but now that you mention it, I remember it being true.  When Spike returns, I'll have him declare which spells he is casting (if any), and whether BEFORE noon or AFTER noon.  

In any case, as I understand it, his plan is to arrive in the afternoon of Day 1, then enter the Dungeon in the afternoon of Day 2.  

This will give him a chance to cast some spells on Day 1 and reacquire them before entering on Day 2.  Obviously, such a delay would give cultists time to do as they please with captives (assuming any are still alive).

Quote from: Kaelik;5721091) Augury only effects the immediate future. To quote, "The augury can see into the future only about half an hour, so anything that might happen after that does not affect the result." So unless you think you are going to save the people in 30 minutes, then that's not a very good question to ask.

:duh:  Damnit, I knew that! bah. I'm sure I can rephrase them to be a bit more immediate.

Quote2) Augury/Divination have an expensive material component, so if you are going to be casting those a lot, you should account for it.

Not really, no. Not for tenth level characters anyway. And also:not much on the casting 'alot'. The real question should be 'does Jurgen have 100xp above minimum for 10th level to cast Commune? I think its fair that he does, but DeadDM should make that call, so I'll defer to him.

Bah: Focus vs components on scrying. If there is a temple with a font in it, Jurgen will scry instead of Ambrose, otherwise just skip it. I'm tired of back tracking because these characters have never been played before so are scrambling to have simple shit... doubly since they'll never be played again.

Quote3) That whole noon casting trick you think you are doing doesn't work:

"As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."

From the Preparing Divine Spells section of the SRD.

Huh. Sure, that makes sense. Guess I should pass that on to the GM I pulled it under.  Anyway, all that does is very slightly change the time line to a safer but potentially less informative 'cast the night before, travel in the morning, pray at noon and assault. The true seeing and detect evil can be used either before or after noon the first day without interfering with the planned divination spells.  Contact Other Planes is being kept in reserve until after all other divinatory spells have been cast due to risk factors. Its teh 'oh shit, now I need one more answer!' spell...

Rephrased Augery might be: "If we delay now, will it cost villager lives" which is an immediate question (leave now or not) though I can work on further tightening it down if thats still too open for everyone.

THe big two are the divination and Commune, followed by the longshot scrying attempt, and I still need to provide the 'top ten questions' for commune. Targets for Scrying and Divination have been thrown down already, so we're looking to see how Fate is rolling today.

Bah: Ambrose's prying eyes are slightly more challenging this way. Really need an extra hour, but I'm just gonna have to take what I can get. Still cast before bed, roll out after 8 hour rest, use the two hours left to avoid ambushes and hope there's enough juice/distance to scope the cave, but not holding my breath. Figure the party will leave around dawn-ish, so they'll have a few hours for Ambrose to study while they wait for Jurgen to pray.


EDIT EDIT::: I freaking hit save six hours ago and come back and find it still waiting? Sunofa!!!

Spike,

I understand that I've made this a little more 'campaign-like' in feel than a standard 'Thunder Dome', but I felt that the community here felt that including some of the factors about a 'real campaign' has a 'real impact' on what a group of PCs can or cannot be expected to do - and part of real campaign play is not always having unlimited time to scope out your enemies.  

When you arrived in town, you spent the morning gathering information through mundane means.  

You borrowed horses and went to the Dungeon.  You're standing outside the Dungeon now.  

It is afternoon of the first day.  You have had a chance to prepare different spells if you wanted to (Ambrose in the morning and Jurgen at noon).

It sounds like you wanted to cast darkvision, followed by arcane eyes before leaving town.  If that is the case, you have several hours of the spell duration remaining when you arrive.  
 
What would you like to do?  

Are you casting any spells?  Assuming no imminent danger, do you plan to rest overnight?

That sounds like a misunderstanding.  I only added the night movement when I misunderstood the prayer rules. Since that was in error, I was going back to the original stated plan, which was to do the divinatory casting in town, moving out first thing in the morning and praying/memorizing and hitting the cave straight after noon, fully prepared and armed with all the information I could squeeze out of God.

Currently, I have Jurgen having blown his Auguries on questions about the necessity of moving out right away(that is before morning) and about Gareth's side mission in the woods, which we already knew failed.

I had also cast Divination but hadn't gotten and answer.

I hold myself to blame for the confusion as I've been rushing thoughts and questions all at once and planning two and three steps ahead of myself while looking for angles to squeeze.

THe purpose of the vision spells was to use during scrying, since Ambrose is going to have a chance to rest and rememorize his spells. The morning movement works better as it allows spell list refinement based on answers to magic questions.


Hopefully that clears up the confusion.  If not, the fucket, I enter the cave. I'm tired of wrangling (what is this, day three of talking about what happens in town? Ugh...)

In town, the group attempts to use augury to learn if the lives of any villagers can be saved by an immediate rescue.  The augury reveals that it is too late to save anyone, but it is not too late to avenge themselves on the killer.  

Divinations reveal nothing of any help.  Perhaps the Order of the Phoenix has been careful to keep their actions hidden from the Sun and Pelor can offer no useful advice.  
Low is good (1d100=89) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3657820/)

Ambrose is unable to successfully scry on any Cultists, even with a sketch.  

With no need to hurry, the party makes their way to the cave, resting overnight and waiting until noon to prepare the most advantageous spells.

Day 2
It is noon of Day 2.  Ambrose and Jurgen can prepare whatever spells they want.  It has been more than 8 hours since they last cast a spell, so they have all spell slots available.

Getting ahead, boss. Still have my ten questions from Commune to work out. Bummer about the divination.

Ah, screw it. I'm fucken knackered, drawing a blank on the ten yes/no questions and no one had any advice.

What do I have?

1- Oh great pelor, do you want me to do this quest?
2- are there undead here?
3- Is the primarch an immediate concern to clearing this nest of cultists?
4- are we fucked?
5- how many questions????
6- Is it bigger than a breadbox?
7-...




Yeah... not great progress.  Been too caught up spreading myself over some 36 hours of planning, casting travelling and camping all at the same time. I'm thinking Linear time IS all its cracked up to be, after all.

Yeah, I got like... 2... half decent questions in there and one purely formal RP question that should probably be used for something important.  Somehow I think asking 'is this a trap?' is a bit... over the top?

Hmm... are the cultists 'mortal'? sort of a wonky wording given D&D's cosmology.

I think you can tell I don't play 20 questions very often... Is it a... CAR?!

Anyway, I'm guessing the scrying failed? Damnit, I need hooks to frame my questions on! Either that or I'm secretly a mind reader and am being baffled by my inability to read your thoughts through a computer screen.  Is it... three wavy lines?

Gah. Done typing. Starting to sound drugged...

Scry did fail.

1) Yes
2) No
3) No.
4) No?
5) Yes?
6) Yes!

Those weren't REAL!!!!! Oh NOES!!!! :eek:   :D

Quote from: Spike;572462Those weren't REAL!!!!! Oh NOES!!!! :eek:   :D

I'm having trouble telling what's 'real' and what's not.  Speak to me like I'm an idiot.  That's easiest for everyone involved.

I am on your side here spike, but I think if you post it, it should stick. My suggestion is the list was incomplete, so let him finish the list. Because the DM already issued some useful information based on the post. So a full redo wouldn't quite work here I think.

I was going to say that while 2 and 3 were real questions (and 4-6 where way the hell out of whack (5 wasn't even a yes/no), obviously me just misfiring my tired ole brain (hey, have you SEEN the output I've done in the last two days over in Design???), and 1 was a semi-serious RP question... that the fair thing to do would be to pay the dumbass tax and ask the obviously question (duh, do the quest) and the two obviously real questions...

... but if my being stupid costs me four questions I obviously haven't thought to ask yet, the so be it.

7: Will Flying be necessary on this quest?

I originally asked if flying monsters would be a significant challenge, but I changed it. Now I get to know if there is some sort of 'flying only' obstacle in there PLUS see below:  
I figure: If it flies but there is no overhead, then flying isn't the problem. If there is overhead but it doesn't fly, then no problem. If it flys, and overhead or reach doesn't matter (small shit like striges that will come straight at us), then... it doesn't matter.  I think that phrasing is pretty good for the nature of the information we'd need, and it can shape spell list choices.

Best of all: The new version not only gives me a clue, it specifically addresses the necessity of the cure.

No, no, I'm sure its not perfect, and I'm sure a cruel GM could fuck me over. Hey, I already paid the stupid tax for this commune, m'kay?


8:  Are there any significant, dangerous illusions in there?

9: Are the Orange Robes more than what they seem?
(still struggling with the best way to ask this, "human?" bad call, may be elves which is still 'who cares' territory. But I want to move on, so I guess I'm stuck with the idiot box question.

Lessee... eliminated a major catagory of monsters (which means, coincidentally, that I'll be altering my spell list accordingly).  I'm tempted to ask if silvered weapons will be necessary, which would mean busting out the silversheen early.  That or intangibles (which were mostly, but not entirely, eliminated by the undead question...).  Or I could go to the wide open 'outsiders'... maybe narrow it down to 'evil outsiders', as this party would have a good shot at parlaying with good outsiders, what with being good and all...

Hmm...

fucket.

10: Will silvered weapons be necessary on this mission?



I've bolded the actual questions for 7-10, so I got a real RP question in there (a STUPID RP question, since the chances of Pelor NOT wanting the party to do this falls somewhere along the lines of winning the 100M jackpot lotto...), and only lost three questions to utter stupidity.

And I did it all before bedtime?

Yes, yes, a pro at communing would do much better. Fuck you, I get to replace three (four?) spells that would have been useless even before I get the next answers. Even if I managed to screw this up, I got some spells out of the deal, AND I got peace of mind about this mysterious "Primarch". :cool:

Augury is supposed to be mostly 'if I do this, will it be good or bad' with a 'weal' or 'woe' response.  In defference to the fact you 'lost' questions, I'll aim to be a little more helpful, still considering them generally 'yes/no'.

7) No
8) Not in and of themselves
9) No
10) No

Sweet. I'll provide the finalized spell list based on these answers in a couple hours, followed by my cave entry tactics.

I mean, I've pretty much got my plan of attack already, but I'v learned my lesson about talking out of order. :o

Right. So lets get the new spells all listed up. Less anti-undead than I remember, but:
Domain Powers: Freedom of movement up to 10 rounds/day, +1 caster level on healing spells
Spells:
0- Create water, Detect Magic (3), Guidance, Read Magic
1- (Cure Light), Detect Evil (2), Bless (2)
2- (Cure Moderate) Align Weapon, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon, Summon II, Remove Paralysis
3- (Fly) Summon III (2), Searing Light, Dispel Magic
4- (Dimension Door) Dismissal, Giant Vermin, Restoration
5- (Cure Light, Mass) Summon V, True Seeing

1- Ray of Enfeeblement (2), Feather Fall, Magic Missile Mage Armor
2- Darkvision, Knock, False Life, Mirror Image, Glitterdust
3- Slow, Blink, Fireball, Magic Circle v.Evil
4- Invis-Greater, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor
5- Extended Stoneskin, Hold Monster

Let me know when you're ready to enter the cave.  Specifically, tell me what preparations you make in advance.  This includes spells cast, equipment in hand, marching order, and what each person is doing while they explore.

Was just waitin' on you. :D

Huh. I just read the whole entrence description. Not too shabby, DeadDM. I've had worse GMs so far...

If I'm understanding the description clearly, there is a cave mouth, and inside the cave mouth (like an alcove) is the tableaux described (collapsed doors, bodies, blood pool, etc), with.. the bodies and blood etc all inside the doorway, which is inside the cave?

Is that correct?

Meanwhile,  Ambrose is going to buff up with Mage Armor, False Life and Stoneskin, reserving Darkvision for once we've seen how dark the cave is.

Gareth will move up stealthily (Move Silently) while keeping an eye out for traps.  He will do this from the side (if it matters, call it the left side) of the Cave mouth, so his approach is as unobservable as possible.  When he gets there, still checking for traps, he will peek around the corner for a closer view of the interior.

The rest of the party will remain 30 feet behind him (charge range to someone meleeing Gareth for Dag), with the spell casters standing behind Dag, more or less side by side.

Gareth will have rope and a grappling hook from the party 'kit' with him, as well as his own stuff (theives tools, etc).

While Gareth is moving up to the cave mouth, Dag will have his flail ready (with a bag over the head to hide the glow. Assuming that a magic flail is still a dangerous weapon when 'bagged' of course...)

Jurgen will be concentrating with his Medallion of Thoughts, making sure the arc of it covers the cave mouth, and slowly sweeping it inward. (EDIT::: I am aware that 1-foot of stone blocks it, but Jurgen doesn't know how thick the walls are, and it would reveal people behind illusions, murder holes and so forth)

Ambrose just looks bored, and maybe stupid.

Gareth approaches the cave entrance from the side.  He quickly detects a simple alarm spell, and disables it, allowing the rest of the party to follow him into the tomb.  

The entrance turns out to be a stair landing, descending without railings or support to a chamber twenty feet wide.  A hallway leads off of the room.  A door to the right or left can be seen, both closed, about twenty feet ahead.  At the end of Gareth's darvkvision is an intersection.  

All is still and quiet, but for the echoing sound of dripping water from deep within the tomb.  The air is chill - far colder than one would expect even in a cave deep below ground.  

The chamber and walls appear to be carefully dressed stone.  Even with the passage of centuries, no roots have broken through, and no cracking or stresses are revealed to his dwarven senses.  The walls, floor, and ceiling look as well crafted as they must have on the day they were laid.

You got ahead of me, chief!

I was gonna just grapple out those bodies, do some solid investigative shit, then move on...

... but since I didn't just die, we'll gloss all that.

What does investigating the bodies get me?  Any relevant knowledge checks or just plain observation over what killed them?

Does it look like there is magic keeping the blood from flowing outwards?

Also: I don't wipe my feet.  yes, yes, some villians are clever enough to make the 'key' to their traps politeness... screw'em!

A quick investigation of the body reveals that they were killed and then moved into position at the entrance of the tomb.  The bodies were fresh enough that some blood dripped to the floor, but not enough to flow over the flagstones.

The bodies are a little torn, but they most likely cause of death is a stab wound, like from a rapier or a scorpion.  The flesh around the wound is red and angry, even in death, indicating poison.

How wide are the stairs and hallways we can see?

The stairs are 5ft wide. The hallway is 10ft wide. The two doors he mentioned are 5ft wide doors.

Ok, lemmee see if I got the pertinents here:

Cave entrance leads to 5 foot wide stairs to a chamber (20 feet) with a 10' hallway... going straight ahead (in line with stairs?), and doors on either wall, all visible from the top of the stairs.  I'm guessing the stairs are short?

Or are the doors in the hallway past the chamber but before the t-intersection (which must be within 60ft?)

Obviously it is dark enough for Ambrose to require Darkvision down the stairs, or at least soon after?  If so, he'll go ahead and cast it on himself.

If the stairwell is 10 feet long or less, Gareth will just sneak his way down, checking for traps. Jurgen will keep using the medallion of thoughts while Dag stays at the top of the stairs in case Gareth needs him.

NO ONE ENTERS THE CHAMBER AT THIS TIME!

Sorry, last time I snuck up to a doorway you had everyone stroll on it like it was a picnic. :)

If the stairs are longer, Gareth will tie a rope around his waist, with Dag ready to pull him up if the stairs do that whole 'sliding trap' bullshit (damn cartoons for convincing GMs that was a good idea!),  He will go about half way down before stopping.  He is very interested in traps on the stairs, secret doors in the walls and, of course, anything breathinig in the room below him.

Dag will not let Gareth get more than 30 feet ahead of him at this time, for reasons already explained.

You can't see the intersection at all if you are still up the stairs. deadDM had your Rogue go down the stairs before.

I can't speak to much else, (well I could) but I can assure you that it is quite dark past the initial chamber, Darkvision or light source needed.

If you are at the top of the stairs you can see the two doors in the hallway, but not the intersection.

If he wants me to tell him what I'm doing, he seriously needs to stop having my guys moving forward faster than I have them.  

If people want to speed this up in general I have no problem with that. Put him in random hallway x with door y or whatever, but I keep getting the sneaking suspicion that, at the rate we're going, I'm going to be in a room and suddenly I'm in the next room over getting my face eaten off without actually having entered the room in question!

People want me to approach this like a real dungeon?  That is exactly what I'm doing.  I'm treating it like a dungeon with a killer GM.

Heck. I'm being positively glib, practically lackidasical for a killer GM. No ten foot poles, no firebombing rooms before entry... nothin'.  

Which makes the fact that I always seem to be ten or twenty feet farther forward than I moved very, very annoying.  I DID NOT enter the cave, teh GM did that. I DID NOT move down the stairs until I said so, but apparently I've learned information that couldn't have been seen unless I did.

Gareth (only) makes his way down the stairs, checking for traps.  When he reaches the bottom of the stairs he can make out the intersection (at the edge of his vision) in line with the stairs.  The light from the noon sun only illuminates the entrance and the top of the stairs.  By the time he reaches the bottom of the stairs he is in full darkness.

Once again he is struck by the chill.  

OOC - You're not going to end up having your face eaten off without a chance to react.  Worst case, Kaelik will get a surprise round before we roll for initiative.

At this point full darkness shouldn't matter.

I'm not sure if I'm not making spot/listen checks or if you're making them in secret. However, due to the nature and purpose of this (thunderdome) I'll suggest that all pertinent rolls be in the open.

Its not like i can metagame and go 'a ha! There be a bone devil here, I know 'cause the GM asked for a listen check!"

:)

I mean, I already KNOW there is a bone devil, and that at some point its gonna try to eat me, probably from surprise. the mechanics of surprise checks are easily as important as anything else, so the real question becomes if anything I do prior to that might alert me to presence of said bone devil.

Since we pretty much have my creep-n-check pattern established, I am cool with just jumping to 'the end' in the name of speeding this up a bit.

Like I've been establishing: Gareth does his sneaky pete thing which checking pretty much everything, party waits just at support distance. If you need a good 'order, gareth, dag, hmm.... ambrose and jurgen, though if the hall gets  to 10' then jurgen and ambrose parallel.  Figure whomever is behind Dag is a good five to ten feet back on average, and gareth sticks to about 20-30 feet ahead. He's point so he'll wave up Dag if necessary.


Given the slow advance of the point man, this leaves lots of time for Jurgen to sweep ahead with the Medallion of Thoughts.

For a room like this?

Gareth would obviously scan the full room from the doorway, calling up the rest of the party. Dag and Gareth would enter, breakign right and left around the walls while Jurgen holds the entry doorway.  If something about the room feels off, or even on general principle, its toss some gravel in and see what happens. Since this room has only one other exit, once Gareth sweeps his side and Dag meets him on the other corner they can cover the new entryway while Jurgen and Ambrose cross the room one at a time.

Continue for the hallway (with doors in midhall? If I'm wrong then they are still 'clearing' the room, with Jurgen and Ambrose in the stairwell...):

Gareth will clear to just past the doors. Then he'll check both doors for traps and locks (not unlocking, just verifying they ARE in fact locked), then will carefully listen at both doors, taking his time. (keyhole peek?)

Dag and party would be back a ways to avoid being loud and obvious.

Gareth would unlock 1 door, slowly (stealthily?) open it and look inside. Provided it looks both 'clear' and a dead end (no other exits), he and Dag will clear the room as they did the main room, checking for traps and secret doors, and investigating any objects (quiz me for security precautions on that if it is relevant to thunderdome) while Jurgen moves up to support near (not in, not at) the door.

ONLY once the room is secure, they'd repeat the proceedure on the next door/room.

Once clear, or (in this particular case, if there is another 'open ended' exit from either room, since they have the t-section to clear still)' they'll secure those doors, re-lock them and wedge them shut if possible with the extra pitons before moving on.




I think that should be an adequetly detailed depiction of their general route through the dungeon.  Obviously, any found traps, or unidentified noises will cause appropriate actions to be taken.  Any fully cleared areas will get chalked, so the party won't waste time later.  I'd probably lay down some simple traps behind us, to catch creepers unaware, but, again, glib and lackidasical.  Trap laying materials are poorly covered in core, as its assumed you'll be beating traps, not making them....

I'm fine with open rolls.  I'm also fine if you want to roll them.  You can feel free to roll Search Checks, Open Lock checks, Disable Device checks - whatever you want, and if they're applicable, I can apply them.  However, this is Thunderdome.  Most of the time they won't be necessary.  :)  

If there is something to be found, I'll definitely call for a roll.  You can metagame a little when I don't call for a roll.

The Tomb

The party carefully investigates the entryway, and makes their way cautiously down the hallway.  They travel through inky darkness, but each possesses the ability to see.  Reaching the point in the hall with the two doors, they quickly realize that the one on the left is a cell.  A wrought iron door stands slightly ajar.  The cell is empty except for some bedding piled in a corner and a chamber pot nearly overflowing with waste.  The smell is overwhelming in the confined space, but otherwise perfectly safe.  A thorough search of the room reveals nothing - this must be where Eileen escaped from.

The opposite door is closed, but was not locked.  It is much smaller than the cell, and within lies a grisly discovery.  Sir Gerald d'Belmont and his retainers are hung from the ceiling suspended by their own intestines, torn from their bellies and wrapped around their arms and necks.  It looks like you're behind the stage of some grisly marionette production.  

No thoughts have been detected during the sweep through the area, nor do any sounds or sights reveal the presence of the horror that wrought such devastation.  

From this point, the party can see that the hallway continues to a four-way intersection deeper into the tomb.  Each side passage is also ten-feet wide.  Further beyond is another intersection, those passages only five-feet wide.  The main passage, still running straight from the steps continues beyond that as well, beyond the range of your vision.

And as long as we're talking about rolls, let's get a Spot/Listen from everyone (including Kaelik).  Feel free to post them here where everyone can see them.

I'll post in Dag, Jurgen, Ambrose, Gareth order, just as I made the characters.

Give me a minute to set up the roll and link it.  Just want the order posted up front so there is no question. Spot then listen in each case.

8 D20 checks (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3660790/)
1d20 → [13] = (13) Dag spot, raw
1d20 → [8] = (8) Dag Listen, Raw
1d20 → [9] = (9)Jurgen spoit
1d20 → [14] = (14)Jurget listen
1d20 → [9] = (9)Ambrose spot
1d20 → [3] = (3)ambrose listen
1d20 → [4] = (4)Gareth spot
1d20 → [5] = (5)Gareth listen



Sorry, I have to dash... like badly, otherwise I'd do the math. Good to see my luck is still top notch  :p

Be back in an hour or so!

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3660791/

4 and 11, you know the modifiers.

Spike,

I've reviewed your bonuses.  Nothing you need to be aware of that I haven't already mentioned.

'Kay. I didn't think so, not the way I rolled. :D

Just wanted to confirm that you're checking the room with the hanging corpses just as thoroughly?

Yes.

Should be like the other rooms, only with careful poking and prodding of the corpses with the flail (longest reaching thing in the party, after all) just to make sure there is no surprises there too. * thats poking them after Gareth says they won't explode.

And then the door will get wedged tightly shut as an extra precaution. 'Cause that's how I roll.  IF I don't wedge a door shut, I take it off the hinges so no one can lock it behind me, none of this pansy shit. If I had time, I'd be taking the place apart.

I raid dungeons like the Romans conquer Carthage. Salt and everything.  I only stop when Ambrose declares he's really bored and would like to move on to the next dungeon "any day now".

And seriously: I'm not really joking. I'll be as absolutely through as the party lets me be.  Of course, I won't spend four hours looking at an evil altar... I just smash it to bits and move on. (This has happened before.... :D     )

The party thoroughly investigates the room.  Once they're sure that there are no other exits or any dangers, they spike the doors open in both rooms.  The entry room, the cell, and the former guard barracks turned into a macabre marionette show are all secure.

The passage continues deeper into the complex.  Twenty-five feet beyond your current position is a wide four-way intersection.  Fifty feet beyond your current position is another intersection, this one narrower.  The passage you're standing in continues beyond that, disappearing from sight beyond the range of your darkvision.

Darkness and silence reign supreme, causing the grating sound of the metal spike lodged under the door to reverberate throughout the complex.  Whatever killed the noble and his retinue would have to be dead to have failed to notice your approach.

I got two clumsy dudes in plate armor...


I expect them to know I'm hear sooner or later...

:D

Continue usual spread to intersection. Gareth will look down each branch before 'we' do anything else.

I have volunteered to skip all this and just move to the final doorway/whatever. By this time it would be terribly obvious if I were doing something radically different for metagame reasons, I should think.

Ima laugh if we don't and its a one monster dungeon.  Also: As apparently I missed the existance of a door behind me: That's one of the ones that go off the hinges, not spiked. I like to not get trapped (bad first ever dungeon railroad, I'm afraid!).

Also, I may have just given away my moniker....   :D

There are things that you might encounter before 'the end', so moving through is probably for the best.  The map is one chosen by Fectin, so while it's a little large for our purposes, we'll make do with what we have.

From the intersection you can make out that the passage to the left (west) ends after 60', with one passage branching off back toward the south near the far end.    

The passage to the right also extends 60' before ending.  A passage branches off toward the south about halfway down the hall.  

From this vantage you can see that the hall you've been walking down extends past the next intersection and into a pillared hall, the doors standing open.

Sigh.

Ok.

I guess... I go left then. Same deal as usual, lots of detect thoughts going on from Jurgen's medallion.  Since we can't exactly secure the rear, Ambrose will move up to ahead of Jurgen, and Jurgen will include 'behind the party' in his scanning.

Working methodically, the party follows the dwarf as he checks for traps.  With no chance of rescuing kidnapped villagers, the party proceeds down the left passage.  The only thing of interest is a room at the end of a short hallway.

The room is a richly appointed bedchamber.  A desk with writing implements reveals that this is the primarch's office.  No deaths mar the luxurious accouterments.

Spike,

It won't matter right now, but with each of your actions, please roll a Spot/Listen check as well.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573789Spike,

It won't matter right now, but with each of your actions, please roll a Spot/Listen check as well.

Ouch.  I realize in a normal game, that may very be ok.  What it's going to result here is that if something bad happens coincidentally the same round when Spike fucks his Spot/Listen checks, it's just going to be perceived because you chose that round to have it happen, because you're got a massive dog in this hunt.

See what I mean?

Well, if you must know...

Any creature that has Spell-Like Abilities can use them without speaking or moving.  So, there's virtually no chance to hear anything.  Particularly with the -1 per 10 feet of distance.  

Since Kaelik is aware of the party, he is taking some actions that COULD be noticed, but only by a particularly observant party and only if the distance were closer.  Kaelik's actions are being sent via Play-By-Post but his ability to know where the party is is not exceptional.  Home field advantage, and all that.  

I have no doubt that Spike's party will encounter evidence of Kaelik before they actually come across him, but I'll try to be fair about it.  

For being fair, Kaelik insists I'm sucking the cock of theRPGsite, so not that anyone will appreciate it, but as an impartial arbiter, I've told him 'no' more often than I've told him 'yes'.

Edit - And it will be obvious later - Kaelik appearing on a particular round will likely be long after the current spot/listens cease to matter - once Spike encounters the generated effect it shouldn't matter too much.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573828For being fair, Kaelik insists I'm sucking the cock of theRPGsite, so not that anyone will appreciate it, but as an impartial arbiter, I've told him 'no' more often than I've told him 'yes'.

You didn't declare him winner before anything actually started, so what did you expect? ;)

If they both agreed to deadDM should run it seems fair enough to me. But too much stuff by PM is likley to make people feel their is collusion (even if kaelik is being told no more than yes behind the scenes). In the interest of transparency saving the pms and posting them after the they become important might be a good idea (not any personal exchanges just the moves and actions so people know everything is above board). Another option is the honor system where pm stuff is just given a spoiler tag (of course pretty hard to stop someone looking at that if they are dishonest, but you can also clamp down on either side acting on player knowledge when it is obvious if that does happen).

Quote from: CRKrueger;573830You didn't declare him winner before anything actually started, so what did you expect? ;)

Oh look, another instance of you making fun of me for something someone else said because you can't tell posters apart.

Well, Kaelik, you AND MGuy seem to miss that at least half of the point of thunderdome is to publicly observe the results, which is damned hard to do with half (or more, I suspect in the other thread) of the 'actions' are completely missing except for results.

Afraid I'll metagame? Sorry, people should be able to see that just fine based on how I post.  Besides: WHy should it matter?  I mean... Bone Devils are SOOOOOO powerful.

Jesus, its like you guys never even watched the movie or something. It wasn't mad max swinging wildly in the dark while the other guy crept around invisibly: It was two dudes being watched by ever single motherfucker in bartertown!

Watch, see?

Whatever.  You gwan wit ya bad sell, ninjaboy.  I'm a sport.

Anyway, once we're done with the bedchamber it'll be back to the intersection.

Same deal on the way back. Jurgen will scan all three corridors after gareth has waved him forward as being safe.

1d20 → [7] = (7)
1d20 → [20] = (20)
1d20 → [4] = (4)
1d20 → [7] = (7)
1d20 → [12] = (12)
1d20 → [2] = (2)
1d20 → [12] = (12)
1d20 → [19] = (19) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3661682/)


Same order as before.  Dag has a 9 spot and 22 listen
                             Jurgen has a 7 spot and 10 listen
                          Ambrose has a 13 spot and 3 listen
                         Gareth has a 27 spot and a 32 listen

Quote from: Spike;573881Well, Kaelik, you AND MGuy seem to miss that at least half of the point of thunderdome is to publicly observe the results, which is damned hard to do with half (or more, I suspect in the other thread) of the 'actions' are completely missing except for results.

1) If the results aren't missing, then how are people having difficulty observing the results?

2) Apparently you are missing half the point of reading the thread.

Our illustrious DM said, "The 'action' will follow the PCs, which means Kaelik (and anyone reading this thread) will know what the PCs are doing. If it were the DM controlling the monster, he would have this same information, so it shouldn't cause any problems. I will enforce 'reasonable actions' from Kaelik. Effectively, the audience will be aware of what the party is doing, but will not know what Kaelik is doing until the party encounterse him. Kaelik will agree (like any good DM would) not to take any action that would be unreasonable in the situation. Expecting interlopers falls into 'reasonable' category, and Kaelik will communicate any preparations he makes to the terrain (via PM) before the start of the scenario."

If you had a problem with it, maybe you should have brought it up back on page 13.

Quote from: Spike;573881Afraid I'll metagame? Sorry, people should be able to see that just fine based on how I post.

There are versions of metagaming that are subtle enough that they can't be proved, like taking a holy weapon to go fight a devil even though holy weapons are actually really bad because they do nothing against the vast majority of enemies, or adventuring only under the application of stoneskin which is only three hours long and costs 250gp a casting because you believed that the tactics used would be an ambush on the Wizard, or picking the hallway that is most inconvenient for me when face with a three way intersection.

Now, under none of those circumstances would your metagaming be so obvious that I could prove, but at the same time, you absolutely could do it.

Since you have led me to believe through our previous conversations that you are a fundamentally dishonest person, I am happy that in this case, there is no possibility of you metagaming the way actions are currently being resolved. Because you do not know what is going on, there is no possibility of you picking the hallway you enter based on information your characters should not know, because you only know what your characters know, and in fact, only know what a DM would actually tell you in an actual game.

I'm also confident that when my actions become apparent/are explained, that no one with even a shred of honesty will be able to claim that my failing to post openly allowed me to get away with anything at all.

Quote from: Spike;573881Bone Devils are SOOOOOO powerful.

I said that Bone Devils are capable of TPKing an average core party when played intelligently.

No part of that requires me to believe that it would fair as well against a party that was cheating by having knowledge of things it couldn't possibly have knowledge of.

Especially since I specifically pointed out asymmetric information as one of the reasons the Bone Devil is likely to be able to TPK.

Quote from: Spike;573881Jesus, its like you guys never even watched the movie or something. It wasn't mad max swinging wildly in the dark while the other guy crept around invisibly: It was two dudes being watched by ever single motherfucker in bartertown!

If you want to watch, all you need is See in Darkness and See Invisibility. I see you just fine.

Whatever, man. I can't make you post.

As for holy weapons: if you actually go through the monster manual I think you'll find they work on a larger percentage of critters than you think. Two entire catagories of monster, both of which are common across a wide range of levels, are highly vulnerable to them (That is Undead and Evil Outsiders).

That is not to mention that the vast majority of villains and monsters are more likely to be evil than any other alignment.

Once  you can show me the list of critters that are resistant to or out and out immune to holy damage* as compared to elemental damage I'll consider that players might actually be poorly served by buying one.


*And, you know, likely to actually be opposed to PCs.  Again: Being on Team Evil does nothing to keep most (if not all) evil monsters from eating your face, but being on Team Good actually gives Good 'monsters' reasons not to attack you. Unless your DM is eight shades of asshole.

I'm the newbie here, so I guess I don't know how you run Thunderdomes.  

Since I don't see it causing a problem, here's what's happened so far:

When Spike came to the bottom of the stairs, Kaelik was able to see him.  While Spike's team has 60' darkvision, the Bone Devil (since that's what Kaelik is) has See in Darkness - basically, he can see in darkness as if it were bright light.  

Kaelik didn't do anything while Spike investigated the first two rooms.  

After the last member of the group moved down the hallway he started casting Wall of Ice multiple times to seal off the entrance.  

Now that is done, the Bone Devil teleports to the intersection while the party is investigating the bed chamber/office of the Primarch.  

He doesn't need to move or talk to do that, but maybe he misses his landing and makes a small noise.  

I'll take a Move Silently Check from Kaelik and a Listen check from Spike's team.  

Bear in mind that there's some significant distance.  

Let's go ahead and put everything into the public eye.  

We're now going Round by Round.  

Round 1
The Bone Devil teleports to the intersection.  

Does Spike's team notice him?  [Roll Listen checks]

What happened with all the checks I just made? Are they voided now?



Also: Just to add, that is an... interesting interpretation of See In Darkness.  Why do Devils have Darkvision 60' listed?  Just curious on your take, not contesting the ruling.

Round 1 Continued
Spike fails to notice anything (there is nothing to see, and he is too far away to hear what amounts to a whisper.

Round 2
Since Spike is still unaware of Kaelik's presence, Kaelik may take his action.  The party is still investigating the room at the end of the hall.

Housekeeping
Kaelik has made a convincing argument that revealing his actions will make his tactics less effective.  It's hard to avoid metagaming, and if I were DMing the Bone Devil, I would not reveal his actions to the party.  In the name of fairness, we'll stick with my original plan of following the party's progress and only revealing what they can see.

To satisfy the audience, I will reveal all the PMs at the end of the encounter.  

Regarding my impartiality -
I do not care if Kaelik wins or not.  While I've been vocal in the 'Fighter versus Wizard' debate, I don't see how the Fighter and the Wizard being on the same team is important to that question.  If the Fighter fails to contribute in a meaningful fashion (as I anticipate) it reinforces my position in that debate even if the party wins.  Further, I have no problem with being proven wrong by examples from play (such as this).  While it doesn't match my recent experience with the game, I'm happy to consider evidence contrary to my opinion - evidence that has been lacking up to now.  

In the effort of fairness, we will take actions one round at a time.  This will be time-consuming, but since economy of actions will matter, it will have an effect if Spike's party spends 20 rounds searching a room or 1 round searching a room.  To be fair to Kaelik, each round will be described on a round by round basis.  

Kaelik,

For Spike's convenience, can you post a map that includes the portions he has seen and explored so far (with areas he has not explored or seen omitted).  Please let me know if that would be particularly difficult - if so I'll do it when I'm at home.


Edit - Regarding See in Darkness:

•See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

'Perfectly' is a pretty strong adjective.  They designers could have said 'devils darkvision works in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell'.  That would have indicated that only their normal darkvision (60 or 120 feet, possibly) would work.  Seeing perfect means being able to see as far as an unbroken line of sight allows, in my opinion.  I can see out the window and across the street at least 400 feet.

Further, all outsiders have Darkvision 60-ft.  Not all outsiders have See in Darkness.  While darkvision is essentially redundant, it would always be listed because it is a feature that they also have.  That's just an artificact of 3rd edition 'standarization' - sometimes things get listed that don't matter.  Like listing Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration - listing everything is just the way it works.  Every Outsider has Darkvision 60' listed under Special Qualities.  

I also asked the question on a neutral site and received a response confirming my ruling from three other posters whose opinions I respect, with no arguments to the contrary.  

At the same time, I also had them a secondary question on one of Kaelik's special abilities.  They agreed with me that Kaelik's proposed way of using the spell-like ability was incorrect.  To mollify him, I also asked the question on the Den and they confirmed his understanding was mistaken.

Quote from: Spike;574050Also: Just to add, that is an... interesting interpretation of See In Darkness.  Why do Devils have Darkvision 60' listed?  Just curious on your take, not contesting the ruling.

That's not an interesting interpretation of See in Darkness, it's the only possible interpretation.

Why do Demons have Darkvision 60ft even though they don't have See in Darkness? Because the Outsider type grants Darkvision 60ft, being a Devil grants See In Darkness, which is better than Darkvision, except in the respect that it is Su, so you would lose it in an AMF and have to rely on their Darkvision.

http://postimage.org/image/bkbefzsgl/

Map so far.

Kaelik, thanks for posting the map so far.  That's perfect.

Spike, I misstated Kaelik's position (which will be clear when I post the PMs at the end), but since you SHOULDN'T know where he is, I'm not going to reveal the true and correct position.

Sure, whatever man. I keep doing what I've been doing. You go ahead and roll for me until Kaelik's devil finds his balls and actually does something.

Ooh.... look at me, I'm METAGAMING! :rolleyes:



Seriously though: I thought this was supposed to be a TPK challenge. Obviously if a little thing like posting openly would take away his ability to kill me, its not nearly as overwhelming as he thought.

Fucking PM me when he actually does something I care about.

I know this was posted in another thread, but as far as the parts that relate to this Thunderdome, I thought I should address them here.

Quote from: Spike;574082By way of illustration: Kaelik recently challenged me to a series of battles against his choice of monsters. What were they? Four devils and an earth elemental.

Why four devils? Why no demons? Why no undead?

Ah. You see, now I know: See in Darkness.  

This (su) power is unique to devils, and in what appears to be a common interpretation of the power, it utterly negates the fact that Devils have darkvision... they simply don't experience darkness at all!

Well: that's a perfectly good interpretation, when I think about it. Sure. It does mean that the writers/editors of the Monster Manual were a bit... lacking in that department, but its something reasonable for fantasy devils to do.

Didn't check the time stamp, but again, all Outsiders have Darkvision.  Devils that have See in Darkness don't lose any of their other Outsider traits just because they become redundant.  And as Kaelik pointed out, See in Darkness is supernatural, which means it would not work in an area of null magic.  Darkvision would continue to work just fine.  

Quote from: Spike;574082Well, really?  I mean, if in my Shadowrun game I put a bunch of two-bit hoods on every rooftop with sniper rifles, it obviously makes the game unplayable. Simply saying that 'I'm playing the NPC's smart' is a cop out.

If you only pull monsters that have an impossible to beat trick and you design your encounters to hammer that trick home (such as having dungeons with 100-200 foot straight corridors and no light...) every time that doesn't make the game broken, it means you are a shitty DM.

Fectin chose the map, which a portion of which has now been revealed to you to see for yourself.  The map looks like a 'Download of the Week' from Wizards of the Coast, so it's pretty clearly a prop for a lazy DM, not a shitty DM.  And with all the other things to do in our games, coming up with interesting maps isn't aways the best use of time (though I do love me some 1st edition DMG random dungeon creation).  

That said, while See in Darkness isn't an unbeatable weapon, it is certainly a powerful advantage for the devil.  If you want to concede that 'See in Darkness' in the current scenario makes the Bone Devil unbeatable (because he can stay outside of your ability to see) we can skip all the Devils and move straight to the Elemental.  That would be an admission that Kaelik's point that an intelligently played opponent can wreak havoc with an 'appropriate party' if played intelligently.  

Quote from: Spike;574082This corresponds to my second observation.  Both Kaelik and MGuy want to demonstrate how much better their perspective is, which is an understandable trait, so both agreed to a Thunderdome arena fight, where they could strut their stuff.

Both insist, however, in hiding every single thing they do: Assymetrical information.  Neither of their opponents (Myself and Panzerkraken) have... to the best of my knowledge hidden anything.

As far as the Fighter vs. Wizard Thunderdome, we've only seen Panzerkraken's observable actions.  I assume that what he is doing in the solid fog will not be revealed, at least, not directly.  Obviously it would be hard for Mguy NOT to metagame what his summoned creatures know, but we should give him a shot.  

But Kaelik is absolutely right that he can see the party and the party cannot see him.  Revealing his actions undermines his advantage.  My goal is not to be a shitty DM, but there's no real reason for the Bone Devil to reveal himself in this encounter.  Now, that might be different if he had something he was defending - basically he'd have to fend them off and/or prevent them from leaving with whatever he was guarding...  But this is THUNDERDOME.  Two sides enter, one side leaves.  Death is the only victory condition.  I didn't make those rules, either.  

So to be fair, Spike, you agreed to this challenge believing that it would not be terribly difficult to defeat the Bone Devil.  Kaelik believes that the Bone Devil is much more difficult than its CR would suggest.  It looks like you've come to agree with him (because See in Darkness is powerful).  

Quote from: Spike;574082Kaelik, certainly, is on record for stating he is afraid I'll metagame and somehow throw off his TPK monster. He's as much as accused me of already doing so openly.

Kaelik and I have discussed this somewhat extensively.  It's hard NOT to metagame certain things.  Please accept that this is in your best interest.  If you win as a result of information your characters should not reasonably have, it fails to prove your point or dispute Kaelik's point.  I've told Kaelik that certain, let's say, interpretations, that might be acceptable in normal play also do little to support his contention.  A bad ruling (or even an acceptable but permissive ruling) may taint his victory.  For that reason, if asked to make a ruling, I'll be conservative, even if that's not really strictly necessary.  For example, a Bone Devil does not increase the CR even if it is given different Feats and Skills - even if those different abilities actually work to make it MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE in combat.  Kaelik has been asked to use a 'standard' monster, rather than an 'optimized monster', even though part of his contention is that an intelligently played opponent will have chosen skills and feats that are better than the Monster Manual default.  Effectively, I've asked him to prove his point with one hand tied behind his back.  I want the focus to be on whether the monster as written is broken, not if the monster, with optimization can be broken.  

Quote from: Spike;574082Allow me to suggest that if your concept only works with absolute control of the battlefield and information, then maybe its not as overpowered as you think.  In MGuy's case, its even less excuseable: At least Kaelik can claim that GM's do this all the time. MGuy is, essentially, in a PvP fight where only one player is openly announcing his actions.

From my perspective, players should only have information that their character has.  If I were running a PvP fight, I might ask for the players to provide their actions in note form.  Clearly, if one side could observe the other while the other was not observed, I would reveal what he or she sees.  For example, if Mguy were invisible and Panzerkraken were visible, I'd have no problem asking Panzerkraken to announce his actions publicy, while allowing Mguy to continue passing notes.  

Quote from: Spike;574082Aside from the obsessive need to stack the deck in their favor, when by their own arguments the deck is pre-stacked anyway, it shows a fundamental lack of comprehension of the PURPOSE of the challenges.  If my party wanders around aimlessly for a few more days worth of posts before his Devil finally attacks, and all anyone sees is DeadDM announcing that a surprise round had occured and the wizard was dead... it is impossible for me, or for that matter the members of this site to actually tell what happened.

Posting 'after the fact' justifications is a poor sop for this obfuscation.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I can't understand why you would think you should have information your characters don't possess.  I was tempted to post actions for Kaelik in spoiler form so the audience could follow his actions while hiding them from you, but discussion of the rules could reveal his intent accidentally.   Better to avoid tipping his hand.  Bearing in mind that Kaelik can see in darkness more than 60' and therefore there may only be auditory clues to his presence (and I'll point out, he doesn't think there should be - not needing to move or speak gives him a valid point, but I think that saying 'you're automatically totally silent' is a little unfair - because there's always a CHANCE he scuffs his foot or something, even if he's just teleporting - maybe the floor isn't perfectly flat), but by the rules, the odds of noticing him are very small.  I'd consider the DC to be no lower than 15 (as someone whispering) with a -1 for 10 feet, if he's not close, the listen checks will fail.  

Quote from: Spike;574082At this point I'm reasonably certain that Kaelik has given up on actually winning his TPK challenge and is trying to bore me to death. Two real time days I've been tromping through that dungeon.  I've made three or four real offers to speed up to the point where he ambushes me, just to get it over with.  I think, at this point, he'd rather I quit so he can declare victory without actually having to produce anything.

I think he intends to win, but taking his time works to his advantage.  

Quote from: SRD•Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish).

Preventing you from sleeping is a valid tactic that an intelligent devil might try.  With an Intelligence of 14 (above human average) taking advantage of that fact seems reasonable.  Kaelik hasn't announced that is part of his plan, but there's no reason it couldn't be.  Getting bored and diving into melee with the party would not be 'playing the opponent intelligently'.  

Quote from: Spike;574082What they didn't consider was that some people would read things like 'Teleport at will' and assume that implied a different sort of monster, one that fights, I'm guessing, like nightcrawler from the X-men, or uses invisibility constantly (there are monsters for that called Invisible Stalkers) and that by NOT using those "At Will" powers every single round they were somehow 'doing it wrong'.

Again, this is the core of Kaelik's contention.  The monsters may have been assumed to be stupid, but nothing in the mechanics suggest it.  To play the monster appropriately, you should take advantage of these abilities.  The designers may not have conceived of how the monsters would be used, but they should have been cognizant of how they could be used.  Limiting the at will powers to a number of times/day would dramatically reduce the options to fight 'like Nightcrawler from the X-men'.

Reposted from the other thread:

Quote from: Spike;574082By way of illustration: Kaelik recently challenged me to a series of battles against his choice of monsters. What were they? Four devils and an earth elemental.

Why four devils? Why no demons? Why no undead?

Ah. You see, now I know: See in Darkness.

I offered you 2 Demons, 2 Devils, and an Earth Elemental. I'd also offer you the Slaad, but those aren't SRD, only in printed books.

At least if you are going to make long diatribes, get the facts right.

Vrocks don't have See in Darkness, but I bet I could still TPK your party with one.

Continuing

The party completes their thorough search of the Primarch's quarters.  Correspondence reveals that he was planning on summoning a powerful outsider and binding it to his will.  The letters inquiring about it stress that it is very dangerous and could result in the Primarch's death.  They emphasize having a powerful ward surrounding the calling circle, emphasizing that it must be perfect or the bound creature could break free.

With out anything of more use, the party steps back into the hallway to find an unbroken plane blocking their path.  It is smooth as glass, slightly reflective, and bitterly cold.  It is impossible to tell how thick it might be in the darkness, but it completely blocks the hall, floor to ceiling and wall to wall.  

Out of Character
The number of rounds you spend interacting with the blockage may be significant.  Please keep your actions in one round increments until told otherwise.

I think there should be a set Character Name on the castle used, and that same name used for every roll, so that the entire history of rolls can be seen.  Anyone could generate a spread of rolls, find out it sucked, then do another one with a new name and only link to the one they liked.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574184I think there should be a set Character Name on the castle used, and that same name used for every roll, so that the entire history of rolls can be seen.  Anyone could generate a spread of rolls, find out it sucked, then do another one with a new name and only link to the one they liked.

This is true, and I used "Kaelik" for mine spot/listen, but honestly, at this point deadDM has just been rolling for me without telling me, so...

Quote from: CRKrueger;574184I think there should be a set Character Name on the castle used

I recommend Flying Fortress.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574184I think there should be a set Character Name on the castle used, and that same name used for every roll, so that the entire history of rolls can be seen.  Anyone could generate a spread of rolls, find out it sucked, then do another one with a new name and only link to the one they liked.

I have no objection.  But as long as the party rolling is logged-in, we can look to see all of their rolls, even if they roll for different campaigns.  Ie, instead of rolling as a guest, it would be better to register.  

Spike has:

http://invisiblecastle.com/search/?roll=&name=Spike&player=&campaign=&latest=10

In any case, for Campaign Name, let's use: Thunderdome.

That's what Jeff and Panzerkraken are using, too, but it shouldn't cause any confusion.  

http://invisiblecastle.com/search/?roll=&name=&player=&campaign=Thunderdome&latest=

I've been using '[Thunderdome] 3e core party vs. Bone Devil ' (with or without a space at the end, I think', so that might cause confusion.  

Thunderdome is easier.

No.  Sorry. I haven't read a single post since my last one, but no.

I am not Captain fucking Ahab, and this Bone Devil is not my Great White Whale.

Kaelic set out to prove he could ambush and TPK an average party of adventurers. That was obviously a lie. Instead he has set out to prove that an invisible teleporting monster could outrun and outhide a party of adventurers until they died of old age.

So congratulations Kaelik, for proving a point absolutely no one here was trying to contest.


See, I'm going to treat you just like I treat GMs in real life that pull dumb stunts like this. You've wasted three days of my internet life 'avoiding' me...

Here, let me clue you in: I don't care how much information you present or hide, no amount of metagaming would allow me to catch your Bone Devil. And, just like in real life, now that I've realized the GM is jerking me around on my Saturday (or whatever day you'd like, since its been three or so), I will just... walk away.


Yup. You won.

You've managed to prove that any dickhead can drive away players by being an asshole.

Go you.

I'm fucking out.  The party commits seppuku in shame for their failure to even discover what, exactly the horrible evil is, much less defeat it. TPK, Kaelik earns a total victory.

Ain't he so cool?

yay! a resounding defeat for scientific inquiry. :rolleyes:

Winner: anyone who was actually amused by following this thread.  :D

Not the ending i was hoping for, a battle royale would have been nice, but i did enjoy the atmosphere DeadDM conjured.

Wall of Ice, nice touch Kaelik, i wouldn't have expected a gaping entry way to be sealed off that way.

I enjoyed your "killer DM" paranoia Spike, even if it was toned down. I'd like to see you one-off against a true killer DM in a megadungeon or something sometime (in a game where the life or death of egos are not in the balance).

Well that was anti-climatic.  

Sorry folks.  Nothing to see here.  Move along.

Post Thunderdome Review

I wasn't really party to the thread that spawned this, but I thought I'd do a recap.

The original thread is here:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23300

The relevant bits:

Quote from: Kaelik;555026But yes, encumbrance is punishing as all shit to PCs, and if you play monsters as even remotely intelligent and by the book, you can probably TPK every core party I've ever seen.

Quote from: Kaelik;555047It's not about risk of dying from foolish actions, it's about going to die no matter what the moment I decide you are going to fight an,

Aboleth, Allip*, Angel, Greater Barghest, Beholder, Demon, Devil, Dragon, Elemental (Except Fire), Formian (non worker/warrior), Genie, Ghaele, Inevitable, Lammassu, Naga, Slaad, Shadow*, or Pack of Shadows* regardless of how good or bad the decisions you make are.

*With these ones there is at least a chance, if they don't gank the Cleric first.

Quote from: Kaelik;555062Well, not that it might not be an issue in 2e, but I can't say that is. I was only referring to 3e, where you have Dragons that all have a base land speed of 60ft to the PCs 30 or 20, and demons almost all have Greater Teleport at will, most have fly speeds faster than PCs, and almost all have land speeds of 30ft or higher (mostly higher).

It's basically suicide to wear Medium or Heavy Armor in 3e if your DM ever has you fight something and expect to run, but even if you move at 30ft, most enemies are still faster than you.

Quote from: Kaelik;555133Next round, people do things. Whatever they do, it probably doesn't beat the Bone Devil. Then the Bone Devil seals off half the room with Wall of Ice, locking a party member in with him, and sealing off the other two. Then it kills the trapped one, who might even be forced to cower, then goes invisible, creates a Major Image of itself, and sneaks away to ambush the party later as they break through the wall.

There are more posts along these lines, but this seems to provide a pretty good overview of Kaelik's claim.  

He made a point that the Devil is more mobile than the party (greater teleport at will), could use Major Image to trick the party into attacking an illusion, and could retreat and return multiple times.  

Spike seemed to have the impression that Kaelik would run the Devil as a 'closet troll', which wasn't specifically his point - Kaelik asserted that an intelligently run opponent would be able to TPK a party.  

Using major image to drain party resources seems like a clever tactic, and I would have liked to see if it worked in play.  Kaelik specifically requested to continue PM for his actions because announcing that the Bone Devil attacking was a simple illusion might have been difficult for Spike to ignore.  I know he was committed to avoiding metagaming, but the easiest way to be sure is to make sure it can't happen.  Since the DM would not announce 'this is an illusion', it would be unfair to require Kaelik to do so.  

Kaelik seemed to be planning on putting basically unlimited numbers of walls of ice between himself and the party.  Each of them could do 1d6+15 damage if the party breached it.  Since there would be 10 in a row, it could get difficult.  Spells with several hour duration could expire before the devil was required to force a confrontation.  Again, Kaelik posited Intelligent play, not running up and attacking (which may be what the designers intended).  

For lack of a complete test, Kaelik's assertions appear to be true.  From the (limited) response Spike has used so far, it did not appear that he had a sufficient response for the devils superior vision, superior stealth, and superior mobility.  The ability to negate those advantages for a limited time could be helpful, but without successfully casting dimensional anchor on the devil, this looks like it would have played out mostly like the original Alien movie.  Bad time to be a party of adventurers.

From my perspective, I think Kaelik makes his point pretty convincingly, though I was pretty skeptical prior to recognizing the combined better awareness and better mobility that only became obvious to me once the party entered the dungeon and I realized Kaelik could see them while even after advancing, they could not see him.  

For a DM that wants to use the Devil as a challenge for the party, limiting the creature's mobility seems to be a requirement.  If the devil has a reason it can't leave a particular room (say, because it must prevent the party from passing through a particular door or because it is protecting a particular person) the fight would be much more interesting (and less likely to result in a TPK).  

Again, the lack of completely running the scenario makes it hard to confirm this is the case, but again, considering all I had seen, it seems the most likely.

PMs to follow.

I was personally treating it like I had something to protect. In this case my gold and artworks which were stored in the far upper left corner of the map behind some walls of ice. If the players ever got that far and took my lewts, I would have had to admit at least partial defeat, but I was pretty sure they would die long before then.

At least the wizard did get ganked in one round.

That's the sucking thing, nothing whatsoever was proved at all.  Not a single point of damage was done.  Different spells and magic items in the party could change the little that did happen significantly.

I'm sure there will be a 200-line post describing in detail how the BD could have won, but it would be as much total bullshit as the thread that spawned this abortion to begin with.

For all the "Bone Devils can WTFPWN a whole party instantly" vibe, I was a little surprised to see "death by boredom (giggle giggle)" from the supposed rule asskickers.  I was kind of hoping mass carnage.  Oh well.

I think that somewhere in the world, someone is crying tears of a life lost.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574346I think that somewhere in the world, someone is crying tears of a life lost.

Did you really expect a different outcome?

Good odds that the other Thunderdome goes bust too. It has however already lasted longer than I expected.

Quote from: gleichman;574347Did you really expect a different outcome?

Nope.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574343Not a single point of damage was done.  

What???? Tell that to those poor peasants that littered the entrance to the dungeon, and that knight and his entourage "human mannequin theatre of the macabre".

I'm sure they would disagree. ;)

Wait, so where's the ambush? That was the point of this whole exercise, right?

Did Spike's party even go to sleep and get attacked? Or did they just die of boredom and seppuku? I play In Nomine and routinely know what to do with Demons using Cold War-esque cloak & dagger techniques. But I also know that at some point if I have to ambush... well, I have to ambush. An actual direct attack has to be made, otherwise it is not an ambush.

Because, if running an immortal being with only TPK as requirement, I'd just teleport out of the cave and perpetually cast "Walls of X" upon the entrance until the adventurers die of starvation or thirst inside. However, in IN games I run if your Demon Prince demanded an ambush -- instead of just kill the party at your leisure -- and your bone devil character pulled that, well he'd be in trouble because he wasted his Prince's time. An ambush was expected because your Prince likely has other work for you to do.

(Actually, when I'm truly DMing evil, a Prince requests an ambush to more explicitly reveal demonic presence, which usually has greater ramifications than the Bone Devil's actual success in TPKing the party. Or you pissed the Prince off and you are being jerked around, just 'cuz. You're just a pawn after all. Sucks to serve tyrannical evil. ;) You better work!)

Retrospection: Could have ambushed the party at the first intersection.

Cast wall of ice on the hallway that lead out, cast illusion to the right, and teleport to the left.

The party would only have had one place to run: deeper into the dungeon.

And only 50% chance of picking the real Bone Devil from the illusion, unless someone had an ability to see through the illusion or maybe use that Detect Thoughts amulet to tell which one had thoughts or not, but what is the likelihood that a character seeing not one but two demons flanking the party is going to automatically ask "are these both real? let me check before i defend myself..."

So many "could have been"s...

Quote from: gleichman;574347Did you really expect a different outcome?

Good odds that the other Thunderdome goes bust too. It has however already lasted longer than I expected.

My point has already been proven. I'm just waiting for my dire bats to eat his horse and either he has feather fall and I fight the now grounded and slow moving fighter or my dire bats pile drive him into oblivion.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574343For all the "Bone Devils can WTFPWN a whole party instantly" vibe, I was a little surprised to see "death by boredom (giggle giggle)" from the supposed rule asskickers.  I was kind of hoping mass carnage.  Oh well.

I do not feel responsible for not living up to your strawman. Despite what "vibe" you got, I didn't ever claim that the Bone Devil could kill the party instantly, and never claimed he act that way.

Frankly, neither did the actual writers of the MM: "They freely use wall of ice to keep the enemy divided."

If I didn't try to separate the party using Wall of Ice and engage them one at a time, I would not even be playing the Bone Devil based on the tactics they are described as using.

If nothing else this thread proves that charop fetishists and denners are the most shit boring gamers on the planet. I didn't buy into the 3.5 attracts arseholes debate but Kaelik sure puts up a strong case.

Find some balls and at least attack your opponent for chrissakes!

Bah, I expected the Magic-User to drop like a stone, I expected the Fighter weeping at his own ineffectuality, I expected the wailing and gnashing of teeth, I wanted to see the resulting explosion from space, I expected the skull-fucking of corpses, the Cleric praying unanswered to his God as he is force-fed the heart of the thief, the Bone Devil driving the PCs before it and hearing the Lamentation of their Women.  What we got was Car Wars where one guy takes an hour to plot out his move with a slide rule every time.

This is not Fractions and Fractals, this is Dungeons and Dragons, THIS...IS THUNDERDOME!!!, or I guess not.  Like I said, oh well.

If I'm Mephistopheles and I hear about one of my Bone Devils killing a party by walling them off until they die of hunger, thirst, or lack of oxygen, I'm going to laugh for a decade or so, and then turn the Bone Devil back into a Larva and let a Pit Fiend wipe his ass with it.  Why?  Any Genius level intelligence can win, but with Eternal Existence, the only true crime is being boring and if I wanted Tedious, I'd talk to Asmodeus's personal secretary.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574472Bah, I expected the Magic-User to drop like a stone, I expected the Fighter weeping at his own ineffectuality, I expected the wailing and gnashing of teeth, I wanted to see the resulting explosion from space, I expected the skull-fucking of corpses, the Cleric praying unanswered to his God as he is force-fed the heart of the thief, the Bone Devil driving the PCs before it and hearing the Lamentation of their Women.  What we got was Car Wars where one guy takes an hour to plot out his move with a slide rule every time.

This is not Fractions and Fractals, this is Dungeons and Dragons, THIS...IS THUNDERDOME!!!, or I guess not.  Like I said, oh well.

If I'm Mephistopheles and I hear about one of my Bone Devils killing a party by walling them off until they die of hunger, thirst, or lack of oxygen, I'm going to laugh for a decade or so, and then turn the Bone Devil back into a Larva and let a Pit Fiend wipe his ass with it.  Why?  Any Genius level intelligence can win, but with Eternal Existence, the only true crime is being boring and if I wanted Tedious, I'd talk to Asmodeus's personal secretary.

I'd go talk to Glasya instead.  Nothing like a happy chat with the Boss' daughter.

I decided to look at the cause of all this brouhaha, "By the Book Gaming -- Wow this is Hard," to see what was being contested.

Apparently Kaelik was talking about how busted CR/EL ratings are compared to playing a monster intelligently. Which is a non-starter because yes, anything played intelligently will be a greater CR/EL lvl than the ratings. Y'know, settings and situations matter and all that. Entertainingly enough it's the same argument why fighters can deal with dragons w/o wuxia fightan powerz, just inverse.

But then if that was the case you could have a gaggle of priests do a combined ritual spell or some abjuring ward and seal the bone devil lair, just like a bone devil can seal a party in its lair. It is playing smartly according to setting. And it does succeed. But it also doesn't prove anything above except reaffirm the point that Wizards v. Fighter issue is actually bullshit.

So, doubting Kaelik was arguing against himself from another topic, and suspecting there was more to this, I read further in the topic to find Justin Alexander dissecting Kaelik's reverse-CR contention, that of the near-surety the Bone Devil will TPK the party of four 9th lvls instead of their having 100% chance success according to CR. Which, as someone later points out, argues against Kaelik's demon-morphing bow wielding über-cleric, but we'll leave that alone for now (because that much arguing against yourself is dizzying).

Apparently this continues with a back-and-forth of examples where the party would or would not TPK due to Bone Devil ambushes. And ambushes they were, as characters would be isolated or backstabbed -- always physically attacked in the end in some way. Helpless all characters would be if played by the right clever GM because see in darkness is infinite. White-room theory wanking next persists until BedrockBrendan tells Kaelik and Spike/Justin to get a room and be done with this already.

Thus a great lead up to this match where the Bone Devil stalls out a party's patience waiting for congenital heart failure and Alzheimer's. Which leads back to the above point arguing that actual play in setting matters more, therefore reaffirming Wizard v. Fighter issue is bullshit. And then I realized I could have been watching Hulu.

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508Apparently Kaelik was talking about how busted CR/EL ratings are compared to playing a monster intelligently. Which is a non-starter because yes, anything played intelligently will be a greater CR/EL lvl than the ratings.

This is only true if the designers intend everything to be played stupidly, no?  

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508But then if that was the case you could have a gaggle of priests do a combined ritual spell or some abjuring ward and seal the bone devil lair, just like a bone devil can seal a party in its lair. It is playing smartly according to setting. And it does succeed. But it also doesn't prove anything above except reaffirm the point that Wizards v. Fighter issue is actually bullshit.

Two things here.  First, according to the CR system, the 10th level party should have no trouble ending that creature's miserable little existence.  Using some kind of ritual to seal it away for ever makes sense for 3rd level characters, but not for characters that are an equal challenge.

Second, the rules don't have anything about such a ceremony.  That's possibly some DM pity there.  If you can seal the demon when the party wants to, but you can't seal the demon the rest of the time, how is that consistent. Worse, if NPC clerics can perform some ritual but the players never can, what's the point of having heroes in the first place.  That would just prove that 'you can magical Tea Party anything that's hard'.  

This doesn't have anything to do with the Fighter vs. Wizard debate.  If it did, the contribution of the Fighter would have been minimal while the contribution of the Wizard would have been more significant.  Or not.  But with both of them on the party's side, it wouldn't prove anything.  Individually they could both go against the Bone Devil and we could see how they fare - that might work.  

A well prepared wizard would have had nothing to fear (or at least, not much).  True Seeing would be important, and remember, the Wizard has multiple ways to win.  The easiest is pretending you can't see the Bone Devil until it tries to gank you, then casting dismissal from a scroll, with plenty of objects to raise the DC and overcome SR.  But that presumes knowing what you'll be fighting.  A soloing wizard has to be much more careful than one traveling with a party, but he also can be much more careful.  If the wizard runs off to save every little hamlet, he'll probably get himself killed.  But if he does careful magical research, finds out what he wants to accomplish, what kinds of guardians there are, how to defeat those wards, etc. he can be nigh unstoppable.  Fighters pretty much walk around waiting for someone to jump them.  Wizards don't have to do that.  

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508So, doubting Kaelik was arguing against himself from another topic, and suspecting there was more to this, I read further in the topic to find Justin Alexander dissecting Kaelik's reverse-CR contention, that of the near-surety the Bone Devil will TPK the party of four 9th lvls instead of their having 100% chance success according to CR. Which, as someone later points out, argues against Kaelik's demon-morphing bow wielding über-cleric, but we'll leave that alone for now (because that much arguing against yourself is dizzying).

You know, it's funny...  FrankTrollman is among those that point out that polymorph, as written, is broken.  I get the impression that Kaelik explained his 'build' because he was showing how 'by the rules' you could make a really effective character better than a Fighter.  What this revealed is that most people don't have a problem with polymorph unless the Wizard (or cleric) tries to use it effectively.  This simply reinforces the idea of a 'gentleman's agreement' not to use casters so effectively that they overshadow companions.  This basically saying 'you're angel summoner, but let BMX bandit do things his way, and do just the minimum required to ensure success.  Some people are okay with wizards that rarely (if ever) cast spells - letting the Fighters do all the hard work, but if they can't, swooping in to save the day.  The thing is, if you're okay with that, it tends to be true that if the Wizard DOESN'T wait until things are dire, they can pretty much solve the problems without help.  So, again, this doesn't weaken Kaelik's argument about the Fighter (which, in case you forgot is that it shouldn't exist - people get so upset about Fighters having any kind of useful ability possibly even including just hitting things more effectively that they don't belong in a game about going from a zero to a godling - Kaelik believes that Fighter is a far too limited concept and every class should have some kind of power source - so instead of Fighters, you have Shadowlords and Storm Bringers).  

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508Apparently this continues with a back-and-forth of examples where the party would or would not TPK due to Bone Devil ambushes. And ambushes they were, as characters would be isolated or backstabbed -- always physically attacked in the end in some way.

Look, I understand why Spike was bored.  But this is exactly what Kaelik was trying to do.  A 10th-level party has a lot of ammunition.  Kaelik was going to have them expend some of that ammunition, and he just started to do that.  He created a single wall of ice, and Spike gave up right then and there.  If Spike had broken through the wall of ice, he MIGHT have fought the Bone Devil right at that moment - at least part of his party might have.  The Bone Devil might have tried to separate the first one through the breach (or last one) and each wall of ice they passed through they would take some hit point damage.  He could use major image to create an illusion of himself for the wizard to shoot with disintegrate or scorching ray.  THEN he could continue the attack.  Because he was asserting that a monster played intelligently could TPK the party.  Hit-and-run tactics are hardly contentious when used by an intelligent enemy.  

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508Thus a great lead up to this match where the Bone Devil stalls out a party's patience waiting for congenital heart failure and Alzheimer's. Which leads back to the above point arguing that actual play in setting matters more, therefore reaffirming Wizard v. Fighter issue is bullshit. And then I realized I could have been watching Hulu.

Watching Hulu is a better use of your time.  Personally, I don't watch Hulu until Tuesday because that's when I can catch Monday's episode of the Daily Show and Colbert Report.  I'm sure that this could have been resolved more quickly in a sit-down game.  Play-by-post has some inherent limitations.  But let's be clear here - Spike got bored and quit the moment he finally encountered direct evidence of his enemy.  

He realized that he didn't have a good answer to the devil's longer range of vision in darkness.  He blamed the DM for putting the devil on a map with long unobstructed fields of view.  He didn't try to do anything creative to negate the devil's advantage.  For example, he could have tried to light torches and leave them down the hallways he was exploring.  Illusions couldn't put those out!  If he managed to get the whole place lit up, he'd be able to see the Devil as well as it could see him.  FrankTrollman made people pretty mad when he said something to the effect 'the people over here have been relying on DM pity for so long, they don't even realize that's what they're doing anymore'.  Spike didn't bust out any of that 'vaunted player cleverness' that the folks here have gone on so long about.  I have nothing against Spike here - I understand getting bored.  But it really seems like he quit when he realized he didn't have a very good solution and the game (if it continued) would have been a long drag until he finally did get defeated.

To claim that this did anything other than show that Kaelik's claim appears to be correct strikes me as disingenuous.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574529FrankTrollman made people pretty mad when he said something to the effect 'the people over here have been relying on DM pity for so long, they don't even realize that's what they're doing anymore'.  Spike didn't bust out any of that 'vaunted player cleverness' that the folks here have gone on so long about.

I have to agree with this part. All true.

Not to say that I would have done better than Spike, I think I would have gotten bored quicker then he (but then again, I wasn't the one to take up the challenge).

I will say that I found it interesting that for all the "you're just a wargamer" comments hurled at me, that compared to the people in this thread (on both sides) I'm actually a very informal and undemanding GM/Player.

Death by ice war & party separation, pulling doors off their hinges, etc...

The Fellowship never did any of that, in fact I can't think of any fantasy work where such things happen. Something in the Horror genre maybe for the Bone Devil's approach, but nothing matching Spike's.

I think in the end it may well be that I'm more of a Story Gamer (if one who doesn't use Story Games proper) than what I see as a very war-game minded set of players here at therpgsite.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574529To claim that this did anything other than show that Kaelik's claim appears to be correct strikes me as disingenuous.

I wouldn't go that far.

General comments from a person that prefers roleplay to combat but also happens to grasp tactics.


Can't fault someone for using wall of ice; its effective.

I tossed Challenge Ratings, or whatever they have been called over the years, in the trash over twenty years ago.

CR is useless, when you consider the varying intelligence, morale, circumstances, and terrain of a battle.

To get a feel for what will challenge a party, I just take a quick look at To hit values, AC, Saves, and extraordinary abilities.

Most reasonably clever players will find a way to defeat anything that they are able to engage, that is not 'Unhittable' or 'Unhurtable'

I honestly don't see how CR ratings are of any value.

Quote from: Bill;574546I honestly don't see how CR ratings are of any value.

They're not IMO. Nor on Point Buy systems balanced. Basically any attempt to compare the effectiveness of things in a single abstract value like is doomed to failure.

Core failures are:

"The conditional ability": (i.e. "I have immune to normal weapons" which is added to the CR (or whatever score) and is either nicely made worthless by a foe with magical weapons (and thus is now worthless, and should be removed from the CR), or against a foe with nothing but normal weapons- becomes infinite CR.

"The unused ability":...


I don't think I need to go on.

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508But it also doesn't prove anything above except reaffirm the point that Wizards v. Fighter issue is actually bullshit.

So, doubting Kaelik was arguing against himself from another topic,

Why is is that everyone on this forum is dumb as shit and can't read?

Whatever you think I was arguing in WvF, you are fucking wrong. I don't like the conception of the fighter for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with balance, and particularly the 3.5 I find less powerful than 3.5 Druids/Wizards, especially with splatbooks. The fact that I find Bone Devils even more powerful than core Wizards doesn't contradict that.

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508that of the near-surety the Bone Devil will TPK the party of four 9th lvls instead of their having 100% chance success according to CR. Which, as someone later points out, argues against Kaelik's demon-morphing bow wielding über-cleric, but we'll leave that alone for now (because that much arguing against yourself is dizzying).

Why is it that everyone on this forum is dumb as shit and can't read? I even addressed this in the thread you claim to have read.

I said a Bone Devil and TPK a core party. The Archer Cleric is not core. I have no doubt that a non core party can handle a Bone Devil, which is why I specified that one of the ways that a Bone Devil can be beaten is "have a bunch of splatbooks to power up the PCs."

For example, a DMM Persist Cleric could Persist Resist Energy, and then run through infinity Walls of Ice after methodically destroying them.

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508Apparently this continues with a back-and-forth of examples where the party would or would not TPK due to Bone Devil ambushes. And ambushes they were, as characters would be isolated or backstabbed -- always physically attacked in the end in some way.

Actually, I gave a single example of an ambush, and then everyone decided that they wanted to talk 100% about that and ignore my original contention.

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508White-room theory wanking next persists until

I like how you call it White-room wanking, even though in actual play it turns out that I was completely right. I mean, I never expected anyone on this forum to actually be intellectually honest, but you could at least drop the insults that obviously no longer apply.

Quote from: Opaopajr;574508Thus a great lead up to this match where the Bone Devil stalls out a party's patience waiting for congenital heart failure and Alzheimer's.

Um... I cast Wall of Ice. The fact is that I later would have split the party up and attacked them. That Spike realized I was going to win as soon as he found out I wasn't going to start a fight with all four party members in the same location adjacent to the Bone Devil does not mean I never would have attacked them.

Hell, Spike could even have just run away using Dimension Door. But to do so would have also been admitting defeat at the lowly Bone Devil.

I had very little luck with the CR system myself. Personally i started looking soley at stuff like potential damage output, immunities, AC and any key abilities or powers that could present a challenge and just eye balled it against the party. CR also doesn't account well for specfic circumstances. A tenth level wizard can be a challenge to an 8th level (dont recall the exact breakdon of the CR/EL charts) party or plowed through in moments depending on how eaily he can be swarmed in the first round (and whether he knows the pcs are coming and can prepare for them). Not to mention venue. Another potential issue is how optimized the party is.

I know some people had luck with the CR system, but I found it not very useful.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574529To claim that this did anything other than show that Kaelik's claim appears to be correct strikes me as disingenuous.

The only thing disingenuous would be to assume anything was solved without a single HP being inflicted.  Absolutely ridiculous.

Then perhaps Spike owes us an explanation of why he suicided his party.  Because Kaelik wasn't the one who gave up.  And if Spike was serious about championing the counter-claim that a core party could defeat the Bone Devil, quitting doesn't really help.  

From my perspective, the Thunderdome is complete.  One side is dead.  Spike can't give up and claim that he would have won if he kept playing.  That is disingenuous.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574592Then perhaps Spike owes us an explanation of why he suicided his party.  Because Kaelik wasn't the one who gave up.  And if Spike was serious about championing the counter-claim that a core party could defeat the Bone Devil, quitting doesn't really help.  

From my perspective, the Thunderdome is complete.  One side is dead.  Spike can't give up and claim that he would have won if he kept playing.  That is disingenuous.

Spike declaring victory would be just as fucking stupid and dishonest as you or Kaelik declaring victory.

It's a Thunderdome.  If both sides gave up, we'd call it a draw.  If one side gave up, we'd call the other the victor.  That's what happens when you forfeit - the other side wins.  You don't say 'neither side one because I quit' - the act of quitting is sufficient to render the other side victorious.  

I'm new here and don't have a lot of experience with Thunderdomes, but even I know that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574598Spike declaring victory would be just as fucking stupid and dishonest as you or Kaelik declaring victory.

So what do you think the party was going to do to prevent the Bone Devil from dividing the party using Wall of Ice, using up their spells, preventing them from preparing new spells, wasting the durations on their buffs, and then killing them one by one when separated?

But of course, leave it this forum to declare that Spike realizing his obvious loss and giving up means that we can just never know what would have happened and all sides are equal. (But really we are just going to keep making fun of Kaelik and call him wrong.)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574600It's a Thunderdome.  If both sides gave up, we'd call it a draw.  If one side gave up, we'd call the other the victor.  That's what happens when you forfeit - the other side wins.  You don't say 'neither side one because I quit' - the act of quitting is sufficient to render the other side victorious.  

I'm new here and don't have a lot of experience with Thunderdomes, but even I know that.

Fair enough he won.  However, that proves nothing, because he did absolutely nothing he claimed he could do except See in Darkness.  He didn't drop the Wizard, he didn't then survive anything the Fighter or Rogue could do (because they're supposedly worthless) while killing the Cleric - none.of.it.

What he proved is that a monster with Teleport, See in Darkness and Wall of Ice can indeed Teleport, See in Darkness and cast Wall of Ice.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574600It's a Thunderdome.  If both sides gave up, we'd call it a draw.  If one side gave up, we'd call the other the victor.  

That's not how Thunderdome works. We all know what happens when one side tries to back out of Thunderdome- Spike broke a deal.

"Bust a deal, face the Wheel!"

Someone should write up the random table and make Spike roll on it.

Not sure how you are going to divide the party up using Wall of Ice since it can't form in an area occupied by creatures.  They have to deliberately split up and move apart enough to give you that shot, they also get to disrupt it's creation if you get it too close to them.  

"Wall of Ice =/= I Win", sorry.
 

Quote from: Kaelik;574602we can just never know what would have happened and all sides are equal.

We don't know.  According to DDMW, you already made one rules interpretation mistake and were corrected by the Den itself.  Who knows what else might play out differently then what you think would happen?

That's kind of the whole point of your whole "absolute" nonsense.  You can count on what you need on a d20 to hit a certain DC.  What you can't count on is what a party may or may not do in any situation, what magic items they may or may not have, what spells may or may not be memorized, etc...

The best you can count on is a generalized "probably" or "maybe".

Quote from: gleichman;574608That's not how Thunderdome works. We all know what happens when one side tries to back out of Thunderdome- Spike broke a deal.

"Bust a deal, face the Wheel!"

Someone should write up the random table and make Spike roll on it.

That's actually not a bad idea.

Quote from: gleichman;574608That's not how Thunderdome works. We all know what happens when one side tries to back out of Thunderdome- Spike broke a deal.

"Bust a deal, face the Wheel!"

Someone should write up the random table and make Spike roll on it.

Roll 1d10
1) Auntie's Choice
2) Gulag
3) Acquittal
4) Hard Labor
5) Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods
7) Death
8) Underworld
9) Amputation
10) Life Imprisonment

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574592Then perhaps Spike owes us an explanation of why he suicided his party.  Because Kaelik wasn't the one who gave up.  And if Spike was serious about championing the counter-claim that a core party could defeat the Bone Devil, quitting doesn't really help.  

From my perspective, the Thunderdome is complete.  One side is dead.  Spike can't give up and claim that he would have won if he kept playing.  That is disingenuous.

He cant claim victory, but neither can kaelik. The party at least has to die for him to win, ad the scenarios were originally supposed to be played out a few times in order to account for flubbed rolls and such.

Quote from: Bill;574617Roll 1d10
1) Auntie’s Choice
2) Gulag
3) Acquittal
4) Hard Labor
5) Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods
7) Death
8) Underworld
9) Amputation
10) Life Imprisonment

We have to define these in therpgsite terms... here are some suggestions.

1) Auntie’s Choice- that would be Pundit's choice I'm afraid.
2) Gulag - Spike can't post at the site for 1 week
3) Acquittal - nothing happens to Spike, we can no longer bitch about his quitting either
4) Hard Labor - Spike has to buy, read and write of review of a crappy game.
5) Spin Again - Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods - Spike loses his avatar for a month
7) Death - hmm, difficult one. Replace his avatar with a dead pikachu one for a month.
8) Underworld - Ok, I'm running out of ideas
10) Life Imprisonment - Spike must put bars on his Avatar for one month

Quote from: CRKrueger;574611Not sure how you are going to divide the party up using Wall of Ice since it can't form in an area occupied by creatures.  They have to deliberately split up and move apart enough to give you that shot, they also get to disrupt it's creation if you get it too close to them.  

"Wall of Ice =/= I Win", sorry.

Sure.  But Kaelik did win.  Spike gave up.  

But as far as dividing up the party, that seems pretty likely to have happened.  The range for the spell is 250 feet.  That's well beyond the darkvision range of the party and there were several places on the map (again, chosen by Fectin) that would have allowed the Bone Devil to try to create a wall of ice between any two characters.  While a Reflex save would allow them to disrupt the spell, the Bone Devil can do it an unlimited number of times per day (well, 14,400 times if a round is 6 seconds), so he pretty much could have done it until it worked.  Again, Spike may have had an answer to that, but because he quit, we should assume he did not.  
 

Quote from: CRKrueger;574611We don't know.  According to DDMW, you already made one rules interpretation mistake and were corrected by the Den itself.  Who knows what else might play out differently then what you think would happen?

I think you're drawing more from this then you should.  Kaelik wanted to use a wall of ice to effectively zig-zag down the passage (so each casting would create 4 or more places that needed to be breached).  Since it forms a plane, in order to block the passage 4 times, he needed to cast the spell 4 times (not once).  This meant he had to take more actions then he wanted to do, but since this primarily was in relation to the 'treasure area' that Spike never penetrated to, it is basically immaterial.  The party was facing only a single wall of ice at the point we ended the scenario - but it could have been a hallway full of them, since Spike was being thorough in his investigations (which usually equates to spending 2 full minutes searching each 5' square).  

Quote from: CRKrueger;574611That's kind of the whole point of your whole "absolute" nonsense.  You can count on what you need on a d20 to hit a certain DC.  What you can't count on is what a party may or may not do in any situation, what magic items they may or may not have, what spells may or may not be memorized, etc...

The best you can count on is a generalized "probably" or "maybe".

Sure.  Kaelik proved that the Bone Devil, played intelligently can 'probably' beat a core-only party.  This is the type of thing where if you run the scenario 1000 times, if the party loses the 'vast majority' the claim is effectively true.  Very few claims are true in all situations without qualification - and the 'played intelligently' is always going to be up for debate.  But we saw no evidence that the party had a plan to defeat the Bone Devil, and we have seen no evidence that they would have won in this first scenario.  Any claims that they might win is pure speculation without any evidence to support it - and a significant amount to contradict it.  So sure, sometimes the party might win - but clearly rarely enough that Kaelik has successfully defended his claim.

It's like watching a bunch of retards trying to fuck a door-knob.

Quote from: gleichman;574622We have to define these in therpgsite terms... here are some suggestions.

1) Auntie's Choice- that would be Pundit's choice I'm afraid.
2) Gulag - Spike can't post at the site for 1 week
3) Acquittal - nothing happens to Spike, we can no longer bitch about his quitting either
4) Hard Labor - Spike has to buy, read and write of review of a crappy game.
5) Spin Again - Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods - Spike loses his avatar for a month
7) Death - hmm, difficult one. Replace his avatar with a dead pikachu one for a month.
8) Underworld - Ok, I'm running out of ideas
10) Life Imprisonment - Ok, I'm running out of ideas

Nice.

I havent been paying much attention to how things played out, and dont know how this looks on the map, but I would have like to see at least some prodding of the scenery and some rules calls on the ice walls to really get a sense of how that would have played out. I dont know spike's spell list, but i imagine he must have some tricks up his sleeve.

I don't know, if it is a victory, its isn't a terribly conclusive one in my mind. Kaelik did pretty everything he said he would on the thread, i figured spike might have some responses to that.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574619He cant claim victory, but neither can kaelik. The party at least has to die for him to win, ad the scenarios were originally supposed to be played out a few times in order to account for flubbed rolls and such.

Kaelik can claim victory.  Spike quit.  That means Kaelik won.  Spike committed seppuku.  His party is dead.  Kaelik won.  

I can't compel Spike to participate.  I was curious to see how this would go and expected Spike to find some creative solutions -he appears to be an experienced and intelligent player.  But by the terms of the Thunderdome, Kaelik won.  If anyone still challenges his claim, they can walk the walk and put their core party against him.  They don't even have to play each of the four iconic classes - they could put together an all cleric party.  But unless someone wants to champion the contrary position (that the party can win), Kaelik's victory gives him permission to assert that the party can't win - Kaelik successfully defended his position from the only poster seemingly willing to contest it with anything other than 'white-room rules wankery'.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574632Kaelik can claim victory.  Spike quit.  That means Kaelik won.  Spike committed seppuku.  His party is dead.  Kaelik won.  

I can't compel Spike to participate.  I was curious to see how this would go and expected Spike to find some creative solutions -he appears to be an experienced and intelligent player.  But by the terms of the Thunderdome, Kaelik won.  If anyone still challenges his claim, they can walk the walk and put their core party against him.  They don't even have to play each of the four iconic classes - they could put together an all cleric party.  But unless someone wants to champion the contrary position (that the party can win), Kaelik's victory gives him permission to assert that the party can't win - Kaelik successfully defended his position from the only poster seemingly willing to contest it with anything other than 'white-room rules wankery'.

Are you fucking 12?

Piss off to somewhere that gives a flying fuck who 'won' what.

Jesus, if that day in '81 when i first played a game of d&d had one of you wankers in it, i would have run as fast as i could and started stamp collecting or something.

Sweet fucking Jeebus. :rant:

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574632Kaelik can claim victory.  Spike quit.  That means Kaelik won.  Spike committed seppuku.  His party is dead.  Kaelik won.  

I can't compel Spike to participate.  I was curious to see how this would go and expected Spike to find some creative solutions -he appears to be an experienced and intelligent player.  But by the terms of the Thunderdome, Kaelik won.  If anyone still challenges his claim, they can walk the walk and put their core party against him.  They don't even have to play each of the four iconic classes - they could put together an all cleric party.  But unless someone wants to champion the contrary position (that the party can win), Kaelik's victory gives him permission to assert that the party can't win - Kaelik successfully defended his position from the only poster seemingly willing to contest it with anything other than 'white-room rules wankery'.

While I do think there is something to kaelik's claim about the bone devil in the right scenario, I do not think he can claim a meaningful victory at all. Not when the player quit at the first sign of trouble. Thunderdome is supposed to put hypothetical disputes into action. Isnt about "who is more awesome: spike or kaelik".

I think overall it does demonstrate how this stuff works in the real world world.

After days of being bored to death with Kaelik as GM playing monsters like that, the players would simply tear up their character sheets and walk away, never ot return.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625Sure.  But Kaelik did win.  Spike gave up.

I meant Wall of Ice does not equal an "I Win" as in I Win Button.
 

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625But as far as dividing up the party, that seems pretty likely to have happened.  

Again, the Wall of Ice cannot be cast in the space where physical objects are and if you cast the Wall adjacent to a character, he can disrupt it's formation.  He can't just divide the party like they're in some supervillain's laser hallway.  They put spitballs and string across the hallway, OOPS no Walls of Ice.  This was the master plan from the beginning right, Wall of Ice to death?  Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625I think you're drawing more from this then you should.

He could have turned the entire place to ice with a million Walls of Ice, but he can't do it right on top of the party, and the Walls themselves do NOTHING if I don't agree to blindly chop through each one in succession taking my cold damage like a moron.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625Sure.  Kaelik proved

He proved exactly this...
1. Teleport does make you more mobile then someone without it.
2. See in Darkness does let you see farther then someone without it.

Unfortunately, neither of those things actually affects the party at all if the Bone Devil never engages and the party isn't stupid enough to kill itself by chopping through Walls of Ice while some kind of caster is roaming around.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574635Are you fucking 12?

Piss off to somewhere that gives a flying fuck who 'won' what.

Jesus, if that day in '81 when i first played a game of d&d had one of you wankers in it, i would have run as fast as i could and started stamp collecting or something.

Sweet fucking Jeebus. :rant:

deadDM doesn't care who won. He cares that this forum is full of intellectually dishonest assholes who as soon as they are presented with a chance to actually prove what they are saying:

1) Run the fuck away.

2) Declare that they are still right.

I personally was looking forward to actually showing how a Bone Devil kills a party. It was going to be fun.

But now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

1) Every single poster refuses to admit that the Bone Devil can TPK most parties.

2) Exactly zero posters are willing to put up any argument of any kind to justify their beliefs.

3) Exactly zero posters are willing to actually test the process.

That's really annoying. If you fuckers would admit that my contention was right, I'd be happy. If you were willing to make arguments about how the party could deal with the problem, I'd be happy to talk about that. If you were willing to engage in an actual test, obviously I'm happy with that.

But the part where you all declare that we can never know because of your own refusal to test is not very compelling.

Assuming MGuy hasn't changed his sig yet, it has become so much more hilarious.

Kaelik, it is possible there may have been a miscommuncation here, but I dont think anyone was arguing bone devils cannot tpk a party. Many monsters can tpk a party and I believe most posters here would acknowledge that. I actually thought your position was more like they will always do so if played intelligently.

Either way, maybe you should let deaddm speak for himself rather than offering opinions on his behalf. He seems a pretty reasonable guy even if I disagree with him on a number of things, I would be surprised if he holds the absolutist positions you attribute to him.

Quote from: Kaelik;574646But now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

Please, less hyperbole. I'm sure that many members of the forum haven't even paid this much mind.

Besides, the important thing is getting Spike to roll on the Wheel. No cares about the Bone Devil thing anymore.

Quote from: Kaelik;574646deadDM doesn't care who won. He cares that this forum is full of intellectually dishonest assholes who as soon as they are presented with a chance to actually prove what they are saying:

1) Run the fuck away.

2) Declare that they are still right.

I personally was looking forward to actually showing how a Bone Devil kills a party. It was going to be fun.

But now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

1) Every single poster refuses to admit that the Bone Devil can TPK most parties.

2) Exactly zero posters are willing to put up any argument of any kind to justify their beliefs.

3) Exactly zero posters are willing to actually test the process.

That's really annoying. If you fuckers would admit that my contention was right, I'd be happy. If you were willing to make arguments about how the party could deal with the problem, I'd be happy to talk about that. If you were willing to engage in an actual test, obviously I'm happy with that.

But the part where you all declare that we can never know because of your own refusal to test is not very compelling.

Assuming MGuy hasn't changed his sig yet, it has become so much more hilarious.

I would like to see a bone devil kill a party. Creative use of abilities can be entertaining.

Quote from: Kaelik;574646deadDM doesn't care who won. He cares that this forum is full of intellectually dishonest assholes who as soon as they are presented with a chance to actually prove what they are saying:

Do you wipe his arse for him as well?

QuoteBut now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

Yeah, yeah, your momma and all that.

Quote3) Exactly zero posters are willing to actually test the process.

Because you're boring the crap out of everyone.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574630I havent been paying much attention to how things played out, and dont know how this looks on the map, but I would have like to see at least some prodding of the scenery and some rules calls on the ice walls to really get a sense of how that would have played out. I dont know spike's spell list, but i imagine he must have some tricks up his sleeve.

All of this information is available in the thread so far.  It's not terribly burdensome to review the material before offering your considered opinion.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574630I don't know, if it is a victory, its isn't a terribly conclusive one in my mind. Kaelik did pretty everything he said he would on the thread, i figured spike might have some responses to that.

It is conclusive because Spike didn't do anything he could have done, or that he might assert he could have done.  We won't get a chance to see it play out because Spike quit.  

Again, I understand that it was boring from his perspective, further if he felt that 'see in darkness' is an unbeatable 'I win' button since darkvision beyond 60-ft. is rare; but let's stress this point: Spike quit.  

You can't quit Thunderdome and then claim that you would have won.  At all.  

Kaelik can claim to have won.  Since the point of the Thunderdome was to give Kaelik a chance to prove his claim (or prove him wrong, depending on your perspective) the fact that Kaelik wins serves as proof of his claim; there is no evidence to the contrary, and that is the purpose of the Thunderdome.

The chance to claim that Thunderdome won't prove anything is BEFORE it starts.  Once it starts, I'm fine with participation to keep rulings honest, but we didn't go so far that it was as much of an issue as it might be in Wizard vs. Fighter Thunderdome.  

The rulings that matter are:
1) the party can't see beyond 60' in darkness (ie, Kaelik's eyes aren't glowing)
2) the Bone Devil can see any distance in darkness.  He saw the party when they entered the tomb, since he was seated in the throne room (see map) with an unobstructed view of the entrance.
3) the Bone Devil can use greater teleport to move around the tomb.  He's familiar with the tomb, and the spell has no chance of teleporting him to a place he did not intend to go.  When the party went down the left passage, he saw them and could appear at the end of the right passage.
4) From the end of the right passage, he could see the party enter the Primarch's chamber.  
5) From the end of the right passage, he could create a wall of ice between himself and the party.  The wall of ice creates a plane - ie, a flat surface, from one wall to another.  Fectin originally ruled that the ceilings were 13 feet high, so at 150 square feet per casting, the Bone Devil can completely block the passage.  

Spike seemed dissatisfied with the ruling on See In Darkness.  I explained my reasoning, and I had posed the question to a neutral third-party site, where Kaelik has never posted.  

I ruled that wall of ice forms a single plane which Kaelik protested.  I had asked that question on the neutral site and the Gaming Den who reaffirmed my decision.  

Kaelik was not happy with me, because I gave a chance for a wall of ice forming to be heard, when nothing in the spell description indicates that it necessarily makes a sound.  Likewise he was not happy that I gave greater teleport a chance to be heard, since it requires no speech and no movement.  He was also pretty upset that I revealed he had sealed the entrance before the party would have found that out - I didn't think it would matter and they'd find out anyway, and I was interested in moving things along just as much as everyone else was.  But the fact of the matter is that the Bone Devil has weapons that rely on deception (like illusions) that revealing would have been difficult to avoid metagaming.  

For lack of participation by Spike, I have to assume that Kaelik's tactic of revealing a major image of a Bone Devil, and having it absorb attacks would have been largely successful.  I'm also forced to conclude that while the party might have stopped walls of ice forming if they were immediately next to them, that wouldn't have always been an option.  When Gareth was 20' ahead of the party scouting for traps, he could have been separated with no save.  You must be adjacent to the wall to attempt a Reflex save.  20' distance allows the wall to form with nobody 'adjacent' (ie, within 5').  

Again, I would have liked to see this go to the final conclusion, but because Spike quit, we're forced to concede victory to Kaelik.  He didn't have to complete the TPK to cause Spike to either realize it was inevitable, or it would be SO DIFFICULT to avoid as to not make it worth his time and effort.  Either way, that works out to a demonstration that an intelligently played opponent would TPK the party.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574685Do you wipe his arse for him as well?

Kaelik doesn't like me very much.  I've been trying to find an easy way to post PMs, but I haven't found one.  But here's a gem:

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalking

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalkingEach square is back to 5'.

Cool then, each time I cast Wall of Ice in the thinnest hallways I will create ten foot thick walls with 1 inch between them, taking up basically two squares. So that back hallway has walls covering four squares from my two castings.

I've been reading and re-reading wall of ice.  From the spell effect (plane) and description (anchored points) it could be argued that each casting creates only a single crossing of the hallway.  

The point of this is to ensure that nobody can cry 'foul' or indicate that this isn't fair.  I've asked for clarification from a neutral site on their interpretation of the wall of ice spell.  

Since it's 'at will', there's no problem with having done multiple walls in a small space, but if it only creates one breachable wall with each casting, truly locking in the group may take some time...  

I wanted to make you aware that I'm evaluating the way you described the spell working in order to be fair.  Again, I think there is probably grounds for each interpretation - if the party were casting it in the manner you describe, I'd similarly be inclined to consider limitations.  

Feel free to let me know why such an interpretation would be idiotic and/or whether you care if I use the 'least permissive' version of that spell for your purposes in showing the Bone Devil is awesome compared to the party.

You are an idiot, stop being an idiot.

You don't have to suck their fucking cocks in the name of fairness, because no matter what if they lose they will call you unfair.

That interpretation makes less than zero sense because the rules for Wall of Ice clearly state, "A vertical wall need only be anchored on the floor"

Therefore, obviously anywhere that there is floor, I can anchor the wall there. I am choosing to anchor the wall on the floor across the hallway, and then again and again.

I care that you are sucking their cocks in the name of fairness because I goddam don't want to have to specify that I am casting the spell sixteen times over every place that I want to create a wall.

I mean, it's bad enough that you decided that they entered the place during the one out of every fifty rounds that I'm not looking right at the entrance, but if you are literally going to nerf Wall of Ice then what the fuckity fuck is the point?

Not quite as saucy:

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalkingDC 15 - like people whispering.  There is a sound as ice forms.  A bit of a crackle.

Ice isn't forming. And that's my point.

There is absolutely no basis for any decision about how much sound is being made by the evocation of a wall of ice.

Therefore anything you decide is literally pulled right out of your ass.

The only acceptable interpretation is that if it makes a sound, the rules say it makes a sound, since they do in fact do that in many spell descriptions.

Not that it matters in this case, because him hearing a sound from far away doesn't even scare me.

Quote from: deadDMwalkingDefinitely 10 castings.  You realize that where you're casting them now you can do so without even moving?

Oh yes, that's why I didn't specify any moving.

If I finish ten castings before he rounds the corner with anyone, then I will (while still invisible) teleport to the very right hand end of the M hallway that he entered, and what I do next depends on where I see them in that hallway, or if I do.

Okay, Kaelik won.  He can put it on his résumé (CV).

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalking

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalking

Quote from: KaelikIf when I arrive I don't see the party, then I will cast Wall of Ice 5ft closer to me than the door into that small room.

Understood.  Based on Spike's response are you okay with skipping 20 rounds or so - the time it will take him to make it back to the intersection?

Apparently you misunderstand, as soon as he walks out the door he will see a wall of ice. He can't get back to the intersection.

New Map:

http://postimage.org/image/h67a2tlxl/

I'm going to keep putting up more walls of ice right behind the most recent one.

The red circle is the Bone Devil.

Thank you for the clarification.  I did misunderstand.  I thought you were planning on putting the wall of ice close to you, not close to the party.  

I assume you're planning on putting 10 of them in the hall?  No problem.  The time spent thoroughly searching the room easily amounts to over 10 rounds.  

I don't know if you were planning on trying to summon more devils at any point, so I went ahead and rolled for it.  For the first day, you'd fail.

Low is good (1d100=91) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3662417/)

But if this goes into another adventuring day, it might work.

You asshole. Now I have to metagame.

Don't roll the percentile until I actually fucking try it. Now you can be sure that I will never decide to spend the standard action unless I deliberately decide to gimp myself.

On this one, I recognized that he was right.  I shouldn't have rolled until he specified the action.  I figured that since it failed, it wouldn't matter, but since he didn't attempt it while the party was occupied and MIGHT try it in combat it COULD matter.  It could force him to waste an action summoning a devil.  In the effort to be fair I apologized for rolling ahead of his declared action and advised that I would discount the roll (since he hadn't asked for it) and only roll if he actually tried to summon a devil.

DeadDM, i am not claiming spie can claim victory, i am saying kaelik didn't win anything based on what we have seen. Spike did literally almost zero. It isnt an ego contest it is an attempt to put sme of these ideas into action rather than debate hyoptheticals all day long. To do that, the scenario must at least play out.

As to review, i don't have time for that kind of review. As a general rule, i dont do that with threads (review older posts or anything like that) because i have others things to accomplish in a day. I was just making clear i ould have missed something important before giving my opinion.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574692Kaelik doesn't like me very much.  I've been trying to find an easy way to post PMs, but I haven't found one.  But here's a gem:

Ha!

There can be only one!

Jesus, that boy ought to get out more - maybe get a girlfriend or something.

Holy crap, Kaelik is just unhinged.

All in all, I'd consider Kaelik one of the more polite posters here.  

That's not saying much, but he's certainly not the worst.

While my signature and Spike's quitting IS hilarious it is apparently aainst RPGsite rules to have a signature pointing out how he was all talk and no show so that's that.

Quote from: MGuy;574729While my signature and Spike's quitting IS hilarious it is apparently aainst RPGsite rules to have a signature pointing out how he was all talk and no show so that's that.

It's harrassment. Get over it.

PM pundit if you really want the right to have a signature purely for the purpose of harrassing another poster. I'm sure he'll be all ears.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574690the fact that Kaelik wins serves as proof of his claim

This is a level of non-logic that is staggering to behold.  I claim I can knock out Mike Tyson.  Tyson says "Thunderdome Bitch!".  After seeing me show up with ear armor so he can't do a Holyfield on me, Tyson calls it quits.  I can say I won.  I can say Tyson is a bitch.  I can say I stepped foot in the ring with Tyson.  I can give you a 100-page exhaustively laid out plan for beating Tyson, however I cannot say I knocked out Tyson because I did not knock out Tyson.  Stop being silly.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574690I have to assume that Kaelik's tactic of revealing a major image of a Bone Devil, and having it absorb attacks would have been largely successful.

Riiiight, because no one knows a Bone Devil can cast Illusion. :rolleyes:

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574690I'm also forced to conclude that while the party might have stopped walls of ice forming if they were immediately next to them, that wouldn't have always been an option.

And I'm forced to assume that after they turned around and saw that first Wall of Ice, they're not going to separate 20' from each other once they know they are under attack from an unseen caster.  Duh.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574690Either way, that works out to a demonstration that an intelligently played opponent would TPK the party.

Here's where you're being downright intellectually dishonest.  The party took no damage, lost no resources, was blocked by a Wall of Ice...and that's it.  That's not a TPK, that's not a single HP lost.  

You're not going to get this bald-faced lie to stand by repeating it 4000 times, so quit before you really make yourself look pathetic.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574734It's harrassment. Get over it.

PM pundit if you really want the right to have a signature purely for the purpose of harrassing another poster. I'm sure he'll be all ears.

So why is does this forum so aggressively condone harassment not in the signature, IE, everything that everyone on this forum has been doing to anyone from the TGD (or that they believe is from TGD)?

Quote from: CRKrueger;574736The party took no damage, lost no resources, was blocked by a Wall of Ice...and that's it.  That's not a TPK, that's not a single HP lost.

The party is all dead.  That's a TPK.

Edit - And if you go into the ring with Tyson and he takes a dive, he'd get counted out.  When he gets counted out, you get awarded a Knock Out.  I don't care that Spike 'took a dive'.  If he had the recognition of the community as capable of defending the position that the party would survive, then he should have been trusted to fight to the best of his ability.  I take his quitting as an admission that he saw no chance of victory.  Is that fair?  As far as Thunderdome goes, I think so.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574736Riiiight, because no one knows a Bone Devil can cast Illusion. :rolleyes:

Well first of all, they'd have to make the knowledge check on Bone Devils to know that. And hey look, not a single one of them has Knowledge (Planes) so I guess that's right out.

Of course, how would they know they are fighting a Bone Devil anyway? Something cast Wall of Ice. What exactly stops the Major Image (aside from Spike Metagaming) being a set of Vrocks (IE a single Vrock under the effect of Mirror Image) that they then attack?

Quote from: CRKrueger;574736And I'm forced to assume that after they turned around and saw that first Wall of Ice, they're not going to separate 20' from each other once they know they are under attack from an unseen caster.  Duh.

You do realize that basically all of them would fail the save more than half the time except the Rogue right? And that I can just keep doing it until those adjacent all fail their saves.

Quote from: Kaelik;574737So why is does this forum so aggressively condone harassment not in the signature, IE, everything that everyone on this forum has been doing to anyone from the TGD (or that they believe is from TGD)?

If it's contained to the thread it crops up, it's fine and dandy. Keep taking it to unrelated threads and you'll get a reputation as a stalker - signatures naturally appear in every thread you post to.

Now, listen up you primitive screwheads - yes, that's you Den guys.

You came here to start this party. No-one went to your little rent-an-OCD forum to bait you. You came here to tell us knuckledraggers we are wrongheaded.

I think it's a bit rich to go round someones house, tell them the furniture is shit and then throw a tantrum when they tell you to shut the fuck up.

Clear enough?

Quote from: Kaelik;574747You do realize that basically all of them would fail the save more than half the time except the Rogue right? And that I can just keep doing it until those adjacent all fail their saves.

Yeah, you can do it, but you can't target it from behind the wall yourself, so they can respond, ie. an actual fight, conditions, etc.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574739The party is all dead.  That's a TPK.

Edit - And if you go into the ring with Tyson and he takes a dive, he'd get counted out.  When he gets counted out, you get awarded a Knock Out.  I don't care that Spike 'took a dive'.  If he had the recognition of the community as capable of defending the position that the party would survive, then he should have been trusted to fight to the best of his ability.  I take his quitting as an admission that he saw no chance of victory.  Is that fair?  As far as Thunderdome goes, I think so.

Yeah, I would have a Nice Heavyweight Belt to wear around, and Mike Tyson would be the laughing stock of the universe, but despite all that, guess what?
I did not knock out Mike Tyson, and claiming I did would make me a pathetic liar.

Also you can choose to take his quitting as an admission that he thought he was going to lose, however, since Spike told you exactly why he was leaving, and that wasn't it, I'd have to wonder why you would deliberately lie?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574739Edit - And if you go into the ring with Tyson and he takes a dive, he'd get counted out.  When he gets counted out, you get awarded a Knock Out.  I don't care that Spike 'took a dive'.  If he had the recognition of the community as capable of defending the position that the party would survive, then he should have been trusted to fight to the best of his ability.  I take his quitting as an admission that he saw no chance of victory.  Is that fair?  As far as Thunderdome goes, I think so.

And no one is going to give you any credit for the win. They will say tyson took a dive or was washed up. No one thinks Kevin McBride is a great fighter or that he truly beat Tyson in the way other fighters have, because Tyson quit in like the sixth round of the match. Is it a technical win? Sure, but if Kevin McBride boasts about beating tyson people just laugh at him.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574754Yeah, you can do it, but you can't target it from behind the wall yourself, so they can respond, ie. an actual fight, conditions, etc.

He can do it from 250 feet away, as long as there are no interposed barriers (like another wall of ice between him and the party.  So if the party hacked through the first one they encountered, then stepped through (learning that it hurts) the Bone Devil could have created another one to separate the first one through from the rest.  If he didn't succeed the first time, he could try again, basically until he succeeded.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574752Now, listen up you primitive screwheads - yes, that's you Den guys.

You came here to start this party. No-one went to your little rent-an-OCD forum to bait you. You came here to tell us knuckledraggers we are wrongheaded.

I think it's a bit rich to go round someones house, tell them the furniture is shit and then throw a tantrum when they tell you to shut the fuck up.

Clear enough?

I came here looking to discuss differing opinions on gaming.  That can be done without becoming acrimonious.  Rather than personal insults and telling people to shut the fuck up, you can present counter-arguments or ignore people that you think express their position or views poorly.

Quote from: Spike;574271Here, let me clue you in: I don't care how much information you present or hide, no amount of metagaming would allow me to catch your Bone Devil. And, just like in real life, now that I've realized the GM is jerking me around on my Saturday (or whatever day you'd like, since its been three or so), I will just... walk away.


Yup. You won.

I read what Spike wrote.  Yes, I understand he was upset.  He recognized that he couldn't force a confrontation with the Bone Devil on his terms.  It looks to me like he realized his defeat was a forgone conclusion.  He either had to retreat or admit that he would lose.  

And that isn't much fun.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574766If he didn't succeed the first time, he could try again, basically until he succeeded.

Assuming they were braindead enough to chop through the Wall of Ice not realizing that something bad was waiting on the other side, Wile E Bone Devil Super Genius' plan could be defeated by the character's fucking holding hands. :rolleyes:

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574766I came here looking to discuss differing opinions on gaming.  That can be done without becoming acrimonious.  Rather than personal insults and telling people to shut the fuck up, you can present counter-arguments or ignore people that you think express their position or views poorly.

Sorry son, you don't bald-faced lie here and not get called on it.  Why did you obviously lie about why Spike left?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574767I read what Spike wrote.  Yes, I understand he was upset.  He recognized that he couldn't force a confrontation with the Bone Devil on his terms.  It looks to me like he realized his defeat was a forgone conclusion.  He either had to retreat or admit that he would lose.  

And that isn't much fun.

Yeah or you could stop lying and look at what he wrote with the viewpoint of something other then a propagandist and realize Kaelik was going to take all week to actually get into combat, so decided to say fuck it, because he probably had less boring stuff to do, like pop zits on his wife's ass.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574770Yeah or you could stop lying and look at what he wrote with the viewpoint of something other then a propagandist and realize Kaelik was going to take all week to actually get into combat, so decided to say fuck it, because he probably had less boring stuff to do, like pop zits on his wife's ass.

I quoted what he said.  Sure, there may be some room for interpretation, but he clearly said 'Yup, you won'.  I don't really care why he gave up - it's enough that he did.  If he didn't want to defend his position, he should never have agreed to a Thunderdome.  You can't have it both ways.  

Spike lost.  You can't speculate that he would have won if he stuck with it - because he quit.  If Kaelik quit, we'd be making fun of him for running his mouth and not having the balls to back up his position with action.  Now that he didn't quit (which honestly, looked to me like what people wanted to have happen) people are trying to mar the victory.  That's childish.

But let's look at the facts, shall we?

1) The Thunderdome was set up without notifying Kaelik of that fact.
2) When Kaelik failed to appear, a claim for victory was offered on the side of the core party.
3) When I referenced the Thunderdome in the original thread, Kaelik did, in fact appear.
4) After Kaelik agreed to resolve his argument with a Thunderdome, Fectin defected before the battle could begin.
5) Rather than allow Fectin's departure allow the 'regulars' to claim an unfounded victory, I stepped in to allow it to continue.  I was derided for lack of impartiality despite not having any dogs in this fight (in fact, where I've been most vocal the Wizard winning would be the most supportive of my argument) and tried to provide some flavor and ensure the rules were followed.
6) After it became clear that Spike wouldn't be allowed to have metagame knowledge (specifically about illusions, which NO DM worth the title would reveal as such without PC interaction) he decided it was 'not worth his time' and quit.  

So he lost.  I don't care that he was bored.  He had an obligation to defend his side of the argument.  

I didn't pick the map - that was Fectin.

I didn't pick the monster - that was agreed to by Spike and Kaelik.  

I didn't care who won - up until the moment someone did.

Now that Kaelik won, I will assert that he defended his position in the Thunderdome and nobody refuted it.  Two sides enter, one side leaves.  

But if you want to claim that the party could have or should have won, we can pick right up from the point before the suicide.  Anyone that thinks that Spike could have won can take his party and finish what he started.  

But if you're not willing to do that, than give Kaelik his kudos.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574627It's like watching a bunch of retards trying to fuck a door-knob.

I got to watch a movie in the meanwhile, "$5 a Day". Kinda interesting. I think I fell asleep somewhere halfway through, though. I'll have to go back and finish it up. All in all it was a better choice of my time.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574770Yeah or you could stop lying and look at what he wrote with the viewpoint of something other then a propagandist and realize Kaelik was going to take all week to actually get into combat, so decided to say fuck it, because he probably had less boring stuff to do, like pop zits on his wife's ass.

Soooooo you are saying that Spike left because Kaelik wasn't attacking him head on? That seems like a weak defense (if defending his reason for leaving is what you're trying to do). Bottom line is he forfeit. He quit, he decided his assertion was not worth defending. That means that he basically admitted that Kaelik is indeed right. running away with his head held high the instant things start rolling down hill is not going to make his position seem any better. If he had quit while he was ahead, simply because he kept foiling the enemy but couldn't "catch" him then I could look at his concession in a better light but the fact is he quit when he was behind. You can take that how you want.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;5747855) Rather than allow Fectin's departure allow the 'regulars' to claim an unfounded victory, I stepped in to allow it to continue.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574785I was derided for lack of impartiality despite not having any dogs in this fight

Hmm, it's interesting that you're somehow not aware these two sentences are mutually exclusive.  If you cared enough about the fight to step in to make sure the Den didn't lose, you definitely have a stake in the outcome, as your mealy-mouthed dissembling now proves.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574785But if you're not willing to do that, than give Kaelik his kudos.

Spike pussed out, Kaelik did not.  Kudos.  Neither one proved a thing, however, about the appropriateness of the Bone Devil's CR.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574649Kaelik, it is possible there may have been a miscommuncation here, but I dont think anyone was arguing bone devils cannot tpk a party. Many monsters can tpk a party and I believe most posters here would acknowledge that.

Shit, I'll admit that, all the time and twice on Sunday. Even a lowly goblin servant can TPK for ages by just not washing their hands when preparing food. Hell, I might even make that a feature of my next setting -- instead of a historical Typhoid Mary there'll be Typhoid Gronk. He'll be a legendary "CR 1."

Quote from: CRKrueger;574796Spike pussed out, Kaelik did not.  Kudos.  Neither one proved a thing, however, about the appropriateness of the Bone Devil's CR.

Spike should roll on the Wheel.

Those who think Kaelik is wrong about the Bone Devil need a new Champion. Is there anyone willing to step into his place and pick up where he left off? If there is no one willing to step up, then the subject should be dropped.

Quote from: gleichman;574799Spike should roll on the Wheel.

Those who think Kaelik is wrong about the Bone Devil need a new Champion. Is there anyone willing to step into his place and pick up where he left off? If there is no one willing to step up, then the subject should be dropped.

Agreed.

Even if they do, it'll be in the actual-play forum.

Moved.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574796Hmm, it's interesting that you're somehow not aware these two sentences are mutually exclusive.  If you cared enough about the fight to step in to make sure the Den didn't lose, you definitely have a stake in the outcome, as your mealy-mouthed dissembling now proves.

No.  I cared enough about the challenge to ensure it was handled fairly.  

By and large, I've found theRPGsite hostile to perceived 'denners', and willing to pile on, and if the regulars seem to have lost the upper hand, suddenly switch the topic (like to avatars, music, ammunition, etc).  

I didn't care if Kaelik won or lost.  I mostly expected him to lose.  It wasn't a scenario I cared much about for myself, personally.  

Like I said, the only way this fight would have had anything to do with assertions I've made is if the Fighter failed to contribute to the combat while the Wizard ruled the day.  The Tier 1 casters looking useless does nothing to advance my argument about their superiority to Fighters.  Clearly, they didn't show it, here.  That said, I think their contributions are significant compared to an all-Fighter party, for instance.  This would have been much quicker and uglier.  

Didn't you notice from those PMs that Kaelik doesn't like me much?  Do you think that I care much for people that call me assholes or tell me I'm sucking your cock?  

Give me a little credit for having a thick enough skin to have lasted more than a month and recognize that I don't have to like anyone here to want to see people being treated fairly.  Comments that attack or deride Kaelik's victory are being called out for what they are - pissing and moaning of immature jerks that don't like it that a Denner (gasp) was right (double gasp) about his assertion, and was willing to prove it in hostile territory.  

And if you have a problem with that - you can explain which of my rulings violated RAW in favor of Kaelik.  Because if anything, I was much more lenient toward Spike (spirit of the rules, not RAW).

It doesn't matter what you did DeadDM. You have been labeled an enemy. That means hostiles will treat you as an enemy no matter what. Moderates will not speak out against their own people being shit heads. It is just as gleich outlined.

Quote from: MGuy;574814It doesn't matter what you did DeadDM. You have been labeled an enemy. That means hostiles will treat you as an enemy no matter what. Moderates will not speak out against their own people being shit heads. It is just as gleich outlined.

We should be fair here, Sacrosanct did indeed call out Declan MacManus.

I was surprised.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574752If it's contained to the thread it crops up, it's fine and dandy. Keep taking it to unrelated threads and you'll get a reputation as a stalker - signatures naturally appear in every thread you post to.

Now, listen up you primitive screwheads - yes, that's you Den guys.

You came here to start this party. No-one went to your little rent-an-OCD forum to bait you. You came here to tell us knuckledraggers we are wrongheaded.

I think it's a bit rich to go round someones house, tell them the furniture is shit and then throw a tantrum when they tell you to shut the fuck up.

Clear enough?

I do think it's questionable that you decided to move this thread only after Spike lost.  I'd be surprised that a moderator would default to telling people to 'shut the fuck up', but it's been apparent that theRPGsite has a 'company line' that people are rewarded for towing.  

In fairness, at least they don't toss around the 'ban hammer' against people they don't like.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574822I do think it's questionable that you decided to move this thread only after Spike lost.  I'd be surprised that a moderator would default to telling people to 'shut the fuck up', but it's been apparent that theRPGsite has a 'company line' that people are rewarded for towing.  

In fairness, at least they don't toss around the 'ban hammer' against people they don't like.

Oh, for fuck sake. I moved it because it should be here, you stupid cunt.

I haven't been here for a while, haven't really looked at the threads, then when i did, they seemed to be shit-holes stinking up the main forum with play-by-post or actual play.

Now shut the fuck up and continue posting to your shitty threads.

Fucking hell.

Quote from: gleichman;574819We should be fair here, Sacrosanct did indeed call out Declan MacManus.

I was surprised.

Noted.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574804that a Denner (gasp) was right (double gasp) about his assertion, and was willing to prove it in hostile territory.)

He was willing to prove it in hostile territory.  Kudos.
Spike ragequitting, however, does not prove his assertion correct.

If I claim I've found a new Mersenne Prime, you disagree, and we go to the Maths to prove it, you realize you hate Math and drop out, guess what that doesn't do?  It doesn't prove I've found a new Mersenne Prime.

No matter how many times you try to slide that in there, it won't stick.  Kaelik won...and proved nothing because it was a TKO not a TPK.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574868No matter how many times you try to slide that in there, it won't stick.  Kaelik won...and proved nothing because it was a TKO not a TPK.

So to be clear, if MGuy takes all but one HP of damage in his fight, uses all his spells, and then quits. Panzer doesn't win because it will not have been proved?

Your strange version of defending breakdowns is shitty. It is an incentive for people to quit as soon as they can see that they will lose so that it can be declared "inconclusive" instead of settled.

How about if instead you explain how they party was going to beat the Bone Devil in any way? Or take up the challenge yourself.

They basically had three choices:

1) Dimension Door back outside and run away to never come back. Losing.

2) To attempt to pass the walls (more than one or two, the number of DDs he had) in some manner in order to continue exploring/engage the Bone Devil. I can think of one way they could try to do that without taking damage, but it would be extremely slow, and incredibly ineffective.

3) Attempt to prepare new spells to deal with the situation.

Now, obviously the Bone Devil knows how to deal with this. He knows to never leave people alone for an hour. So every hour he teleports in, creates a Major Image of something (probably not a Bone Devil) and then tricks the party into wasting attacks on it, and disturbing any prayer/meditation.

Now, if they figure out that it's an illusion, he teleports out and teleports back in later to screw with them again with a different illusion.

If they ever ignore the Illusion, he starts creating a Major Image of himself attacking them, and if they ignore that, then he just attacks them himself, and they will ignore that until after he's punched the Wizard in the face, and then he teleports out, having disturbed preparation.

Now, you advocated that people would just know that Bone Devils have Major Image. But that would be metagaming, how was the party supposed to know that it was facing a Bone Devil? Hell, since no one had even a single rank in Knowledge (Planes) and this was "by the book" how where they going to know that Bone Devils have Major Image? It's a DC 20 check to know "one bit of useful information" No guarantee that the one bit is going to be Major Image, and you basically need Wall of Ice to be your one bit in order to even deduce the Bone Devil before he attacks you. Much less are you going to get the DC 45 check to know a whole 5 things, like AC/Saves/Attack routine, or all five SLAs that are not Major Image.

Now, a lot of your tactics basically rely on knowing the capabilities of the Bone Devil, and metagaming. Like someone locks you in a corridor with Wall of Ice.

Your solution is to all hold hands and stand together, and under no circumstances break the wall down.

That's a great strategy against a Bone Devil, but that's a terrible strategy against an invisible Wizard who locked you in in order to cast Cloudkill next round. Or against an Ice Devil who is going to use Cone of Cold.

And the real kicker is that time works against you. Remember that Stoneskin that Spike thought was going to protect his Wizard from an Ambush with it's not even four hour duration? Hope you don't stay there for four hours. Remember that Darkvision and Mage Armor that last 10 hours? Well if you keep getting interrupted from preparing new spells, those wear off, then you are blind as well. That sucks. And sure, they could light a torch, if they brought any, or they could cast light, until that wears off too.

But each day the Bone Devil gets a chance to summon an exact copy of itself, which means the more days you stay trapped in there, the more times you have to fight a real Bone Devil to the death, and for winning, you get the reward of... not dying yet.

The only way Spikes party doesn't die, is if they use one of their two Dimension Doors to teleport outside, and then either start over, or never come back. The first wall of ice was to bait out any teleportation. So was the second. Once the Bone Devil was sure that he had used up all their teleportation, then he would have known they were trapped, and just kept them up every hour, tried to summon another Bone Devil, used Major Images of a Vrock with lots of Mirror Images, ect.

But yes, despite the fact that Spike saw he had no chance of winning, and despite the fact that this is only one CR 9 Bone Devil, and a level 10 party should expect to face four CR 10 encounters a day, this single monster was going to win.

And the conclusion that this forum thinks should be drawn from this exercise is that Kaelik is always wrong and group think is the right answer to every problem.

You wonder why deadDM is arguing with you. Hey, maybe it's because I already told him that you were going to declare the entire thing "inconclusive" if I won, and "obvious proof" if I lost (including when you declared obvious proof before I ever showed up) and he really thought you guys were better than that.

Well, jokes on him.

A) Despite the agonizing pace of the challenge, IMHO Spike definitely forfeited.

B) As far as I can see DeadDM was a fair, impartial referee.

C) Kaelik should seriously drop the horseshit when PMing the Referee of a challenge. It's one thing to speak smack in a heated messageboard discussion, but being a giant douche nozzle to the guy who's doing you the favor of adjudicating a pain in the ass like this Thunderdome is top-shelf no class idiocy.

D) FOR FUCK'S SAKE CAN WE NOT HAVING BORING-BORING-BORING THUNDERDOMES! If I was up on my 3E I'd offer to run one just so I could set it in a giant wrestling arena with cheering crowds, an announcer, commentary, the whole works. Even Tina Turner in chainmail!

C'mon people, you're talking trash, throwing down the gauntlet,  and representing "your team" in a inter-board-beef throwdown. Do it with some style and put on a show.

NO BORING!!!

Kaelik,

It clear that no one at therpgsite is willing to back up their words with deeds. Spike quit and no one is stepping forward to replace him.

I'd do the victory dance over the site's lack of backbone and refusal to back up their claims- when push came to shove, they were cowards or just plain lazy.

And then call it a day. There's nothing more here.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574752If it's contained to the thread it crops up, it's fine and dandy. Keep taking it to unrelated threads and you'll get a reputation as a stalker - signatures naturally appear in every thread you post to.

So it's interthread insults that constitute a problem.

So I guess you are right on your way to banning all the posters in this 14 page thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23798) created and used for the expresses purpose of harassing people for things that occurred in another thread.

Start with Benoist, the mod who used that thread as a personal license to insult and harass people who hadn't even posted in it yet.

After all, how is calling out Spikes retreat any different than claiming no good faith arguments are made by other posters.

Quote from: Kaelik;574903So to be clear, if MGuy takes all but one HP of damage in his fight, uses all his spells, and then quits. Panzer doesn't win because it will not have been proved?

Hmm all but one HP left vs. absolutely no HPs or resources expended, hmm, that's so false of an equivalency I have to wonder what kind of useless life you have that you need to claim a non-existent victory so pathetically?

Since we're speaking about metagaming, according to you, you could have separated the Wizard out, BAM! Down. Then moved to the Cleric with the Fighter and Thief unable to stop you, then finish them off at your leisure.  That would have been awesome to see, why didn't you do it?  Was it because that's exactly what Spike was expecting?  Your Bone Devil must have pretty good ESP.

If you had gone for him and dropped him as easily and effortlessly as you said you were going to, I would have given you your due.  Instead you spent all your time arguing with the DM about your Wall of Ice.  Why so dependent upon the Wall of Ice?  Afraid of the Fighter unless he's gone through 5 or 6 of them? :rotfl:

Your theoretical situations (all of which perfectly constructed to your advantage *yawn*) are all going to come down to.
1. You declare things absolutely true that aren't
2. Someone declares a counter
3. You declare a counter-counter
4. They declare a blah blah blah
5. You do the same (and accuse them of metagaming, etc)

None of which mean anything without die rolls, Nat 1's, Nat 20's, them thinking of things you didn't or know a rule interpretation you don't (like Wall of Ice or that understanding speech adds DC+10)

All of your idiotic rants assume everything going perfect on your side and everything going lousy on the other side, it's FULL RETARD.

You didn't prove anything, you didn't inflict A SINGLE HP OF DAMAGE.

You can claim you won the Kentucky Derby all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're nothing but a shit-covered Tijuana Jackass.

Quote from: Kaelik;574915So it's interthread insults that constitute a problem.

So I guess you are right on your way to banning all the posters in this 14 page thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23798) created and used for the expresses purpose of harassing people for things that occurred in another thread.

Start with Benoist, the mod who used that thread as a personal license to insult and harass people who hadn't even posted in it yet.

After all, how is calling out Spikes retreat any different than claiming no good faith arguments are made by other posters.

Kaelik, if you have a problem with a thread, posters, moderation or mods, i suggest you post it in the help desk section.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574918Hmm all but one HP left vs. absolutely no HPs or resources expended, hmm, that's so false of an equivalency I have to wonder what kind of useless life you have that you need to claim a non-existent victory so pathetically?

I didn't say they were equivalent. But you were very clear that we can never know anything from an unfinished test, which is of course, the bullshit you are required to say because you are unwilling to admit that an evil ferner could ever be right.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574918Since we're speaking about metagaming, according to you, you could have separated the Wizard out, BAM! Down. Then moved to the Cleric with the Fighter and Thief unable to stop you, then finish them off at your leisure.  That would have been awesome to see, why didn't you do it?  Was it because that's exactly what Spike was expecting?  Your Bone Devil must have pretty good ESP.

No, I didn't do that because I didn't say that's what I would do, and that's not the smartest thing to do.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574918them thinking of things you didn't or know a rule interpretation you don't (like Wall of Ice or that understanding speech adds DC+10)

I do know that understanding speech requires a +10, where are you getting your idea otherwise?

Oh right, your ass, the same place you get everything.

Quote from: Kaelik;574943I didn't say they were equivalent. But you were very clear that we can never know anything from an unfinished test,

How about an unstarted one?  Hard to tell whether or not you can hit a Pitch when the ball is still in the glove.

Quote from: Kaelik;574943I do know that understanding speech requires a +10, where are you getting your idea otherwise?

Mguy got that one wrong, not you, it's just one of two examples, one from each Thunderdome, showing in a game with a million rules, you might not have them all down pat, which is why basing things solely on what goes on in your mind doesn't work in...well just about anything in life, unless maybe you're Stalin, but that still wouldn't make it true. :D

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574785But if you want to claim that the party could have or should have won, we can pick right up from the point before the suicide.  Anyone that thinks that Spike could have won can take his party and finish what he started.

I'm willing to pick it up if you're willing to add a committee of two or three to monitor communication between Kaelik and you. Based on the PMs I'm seeing, you seem to be making good judgment calls. But given the tenor of those conversations, I'd prefer to see a check placed on the "Kaelik secretly badgers the GM until he gets the ruling he wants". (Particularly since you're saying painfully stupid things like "

I'd also want to review Spike's characters since I haven't actually been paying much attention to this thread. If Spike did something stupid like create a party of 10th level characters with no capacity for teleportation, I'd rather not be constrained to that.

With that being said, I'm just going to reiterate that the entire exercise is pointless except insofar as it can prove Kaelik wrong: It can never prove Kaelik correct that the bone devil has a guaranteed 100% TPK rate (unless we repeated it over and over and over again).

PM me if there's interest in this. I'm not checking this thread religiously by any stretch of the imagination.

No more actual gameplay here Dan, shut this whore down, we got a new clean thread to shit up proper.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;574952I'm willing to pick it up...

Two men enter, one man leaves. Two men enter, one man leaves...

Quote from: Justin Alexander;574952if you're willing to add a committee of two or three to monitor communication between Kaelik and you.

Wow. Thunderdome just became yet another bureaucracy with committees and oversight and...

Somewhere the spirit of D&D finally dies, and so too does a Kitten.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;574952I'm willing to pick it up if you're willing to add a committee of two or three to monitor communication between Kaelik and you. Based on the PMs I'm seeing, you seem to be making good judgment calls. But given the tenor of those conversations, I'd prefer to see a check placed on the "Kaelik secretly badgers the GM until he gets the ruling he wants". (Particularly since you're saying painfully stupid things like "

I will offer my services as your second, to cover unexpected contingencies.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;574952I'm willing to pick it up if you're willing to add a committee of two or three to monitor communication between Kaelik and you.

I'm almost certainly against that, since I don't trust anyone on this forum as far as I can throw them, and you want to include, not just a single person, but multiple people, when I already think that they would specifically tell you what was going on anyway.

Quote from: Kaelik;574993I'm almost certainly against that, since I don't trust anyone on this forum as far as I can throw them, and you want to include, not just a single person, but multiple people, when I already think that they would specifically tell you what was going on anyway.

You are a whiny little bitch, aren't you?

I'd definitely want to see some sort of time limit for the "bone devil ambush" scenario.

Bottom line, the bone devil can just teleport and teleport and teleport and teleport and while I'm sure a hyperspecialized party can do stop that one thing, it'll otherwise be an "I can always run away so the fight never ends and I didn't lose" outcome.

As we have a new one, this thread can be closed.