Quote from: gleichman;574622We have to define these in therpgsite terms... here are some suggestions.

1) Auntie's Choice- that would be Pundit's choice I'm afraid.
2) Gulag - Spike can't post at the site for 1 week
3) Acquittal - nothing happens to Spike, we can no longer bitch about his quitting either
4) Hard Labor - Spike has to buy, read and write of review of a crappy game.
5) Spin Again - Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods - Spike loses his avatar for a month
7) Death - hmm, difficult one. Replace his avatar with a dead pikachu one for a month.
Underworld - Ok, I'm running out of ideas
10) Life Imprisonment - Ok, I'm running out of ideas

Nice.

I havent been paying much attention to how things played out, and dont know how this looks on the map, but I would have like to see at least some prodding of the scenery and some rules calls on the ice walls to really get a sense of how that would have played out. I dont know spike's spell list, but i imagine he must have some tricks up his sleeve.

I don't know, if it is a victory, its isn't a terribly conclusive one in my mind. Kaelik did pretty everything he said he would on the thread, i figured spike might have some responses to that.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574619He cant claim victory, but neither can kaelik. The party at least has to die for him to win, ad the scenarios were originally supposed to be played out a few times in order to account for flubbed rolls and such.

Kaelik can claim victory.  Spike quit.  That means Kaelik won.  Spike committed seppuku.  His party is dead.  Kaelik won.  

I can't compel Spike to participate.  I was curious to see how this would go and expected Spike to find some creative solutions -he appears to be an experienced and intelligent player.  But by the terms of the Thunderdome, Kaelik won.  If anyone still challenges his claim, they can walk the walk and put their core party against him.  They don't even have to play each of the four iconic classes - they could put together an all cleric party.  But unless someone wants to champion the contrary position (that the party can win), Kaelik's victory gives him permission to assert that the party can't win - Kaelik successfully defended his position from the only poster seemingly willing to contest it with anything other than 'white-room rules wankery'.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574632Kaelik can claim victory.  Spike quit.  That means Kaelik won.  Spike committed seppuku.  His party is dead.  Kaelik won.  

I can't compel Spike to participate.  I was curious to see how this would go and expected Spike to find some creative solutions -he appears to be an experienced and intelligent player.  But by the terms of the Thunderdome, Kaelik won.  If anyone still challenges his claim, they can walk the walk and put their core party against him.  They don't even have to play each of the four iconic classes - they could put together an all cleric party.  But unless someone wants to champion the contrary position (that the party can win), Kaelik's victory gives him permission to assert that the party can't win - Kaelik successfully defended his position from the only poster seemingly willing to contest it with anything other than 'white-room rules wankery'.

Are you fucking 12?

Piss off to somewhere that gives a flying fuck who 'won' what.

Jesus, if that day in '81 when i first played a game of d&d had one of you wankers in it, i would have run as fast as i could and started stamp collecting or something.

Sweet fucking Jeebus. :rant:

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574632Kaelik can claim victory.  Spike quit.  That means Kaelik won.  Spike committed seppuku.  His party is dead.  Kaelik won.  

I can't compel Spike to participate.  I was curious to see how this would go and expected Spike to find some creative solutions -he appears to be an experienced and intelligent player.  But by the terms of the Thunderdome, Kaelik won.  If anyone still challenges his claim, they can walk the walk and put their core party against him.  They don't even have to play each of the four iconic classes - they could put together an all cleric party.  But unless someone wants to champion the contrary position (that the party can win), Kaelik's victory gives him permission to assert that the party can't win - Kaelik successfully defended his position from the only poster seemingly willing to contest it with anything other than 'white-room rules wankery'.

While I do think there is something to kaelik's claim about the bone devil in the right scenario, I do not think he can claim a meaningful victory at all. Not when the player quit at the first sign of trouble. Thunderdome is supposed to put hypothetical disputes into action. Isnt about "who is more awesome: spike or kaelik".

I think overall it does demonstrate how this stuff works in the real world world.

After days of being bored to death with Kaelik as GM playing monsters like that, the players would simply tear up their character sheets and walk away, never ot return.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625Sure.  But Kaelik did win.  Spike gave up.

I meant Wall of Ice does not equal an "I Win" as in I Win Button.
 

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625But as far as dividing up the party, that seems pretty likely to have happened.  

Again, the Wall of Ice cannot be cast in the space where physical objects are and if you cast the Wall adjacent to a character, he can disrupt it's formation.  He can't just divide the party like they're in some supervillain's laser hallway.  They put spitballs and string across the hallway, OOPS no Walls of Ice.  This was the master plan from the beginning right, Wall of Ice to death?  Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625I think you're drawing more from this then you should.

He could have turned the entire place to ice with a million Walls of Ice, but he can't do it right on top of the party, and the Walls themselves do NOTHING if I don't agree to blindly chop through each one in succession taking my cold damage like a moron.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574625Sure.  Kaelik proved

He proved exactly this...
1. Teleport does make you more mobile then someone without it.
2. See in Darkness does let you see farther then someone without it.

Unfortunately, neither of those things actually affects the party at all if the Bone Devil never engages and the party isn't stupid enough to kill itself by chopping through Walls of Ice while some kind of caster is roaming around.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574635Are you fucking 12?

Piss off to somewhere that gives a flying fuck who 'won' what.

Jesus, if that day in '81 when i first played a game of d&d had one of you wankers in it, i would have run as fast as i could and started stamp collecting or something.

Sweet fucking Jeebus. :rant:

deadDM doesn't care who won. He cares that this forum is full of intellectually dishonest assholes who as soon as they are presented with a chance to actually prove what they are saying:

1) Run the fuck away.

2) Declare that they are still right.

I personally was looking forward to actually showing how a Bone Devil kills a party. It was going to be fun.

But now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

1) Every single poster refuses to admit that the Bone Devil can TPK most parties.

2) Exactly zero posters are willing to put up any argument of any kind to justify their beliefs.

3) Exactly zero posters are willing to actually test the process.

That's really annoying. If you fuckers would admit that my contention was right, I'd be happy. If you were willing to make arguments about how the party could deal with the problem, I'd be happy to talk about that. If you were willing to engage in an actual test, obviously I'm happy with that.

But the part where you all declare that we can never know because of your own refusal to test is not very compelling.

Assuming MGuy hasn't changed his sig yet, it has become so much more hilarious.

Kaelik, it is possible there may have been a miscommuncation here, but I dont think anyone was arguing bone devils cannot tpk a party. Many monsters can tpk a party and I believe most posters here would acknowledge that. I actually thought your position was more like they will always do so if played intelligently.

Either way, maybe you should let deaddm speak for himself rather than offering opinions on his behalf. He seems a pretty reasonable guy even if I disagree with him on a number of things, I would be surprised if he holds the absolutist positions you attribute to him.

Quote from: Kaelik;574646But now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

Please, less hyperbole. I'm sure that many members of the forum haven't even paid this much mind.

Besides, the important thing is getting Spike to roll on the Wheel. No cares about the Bone Devil thing anymore.

Quote from: Kaelik;574646deadDM doesn't care who won. He cares that this forum is full of intellectually dishonest assholes who as soon as they are presented with a chance to actually prove what they are saying:

1) Run the fuck away.

2) Declare that they are still right.

I personally was looking forward to actually showing how a Bone Devil kills a party. It was going to be fun.

But now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

1) Every single poster refuses to admit that the Bone Devil can TPK most parties.

2) Exactly zero posters are willing to put up any argument of any kind to justify their beliefs.

3) Exactly zero posters are willing to actually test the process.

That's really annoying. If you fuckers would admit that my contention was right, I'd be happy. If you were willing to make arguments about how the party could deal with the problem, I'd be happy to talk about that. If you were willing to engage in an actual test, obviously I'm happy with that.

But the part where you all declare that we can never know because of your own refusal to test is not very compelling.

Assuming MGuy hasn't changed his sig yet, it has become so much more hilarious.

I would like to see a bone devil kill a party. Creative use of abilities can be entertaining.

Quote from: Kaelik;574646deadDM doesn't care who won. He cares that this forum is full of intellectually dishonest assholes who as soon as they are presented with a chance to actually prove what they are saying:

Do you wipe his arse for him as well?

QuoteBut now, because of the total intellectual dishonesty of every single member of this forum we have:

Yeah, yeah, your momma and all that.

Quote3) Exactly zero posters are willing to actually test the process.

Because you're boring the crap out of everyone.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574630I havent been paying much attention to how things played out, and dont know how this looks on the map, but I would have like to see at least some prodding of the scenery and some rules calls on the ice walls to really get a sense of how that would have played out. I dont know spike's spell list, but i imagine he must have some tricks up his sleeve.

All of this information is available in the thread so far.  It's not terribly burdensome to review the material before offering your considered opinion.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;574630I don't know, if it is a victory, its isn't a terribly conclusive one in my mind. Kaelik did pretty everything he said he would on the thread, i figured spike might have some responses to that.

It is conclusive because Spike didn't do anything he could have done, or that he might assert he could have done.  We won't get a chance to see it play out because Spike quit.  

Again, I understand that it was boring from his perspective, further if he felt that 'see in darkness' is an unbeatable 'I win' button since darkvision beyond 60-ft. is rare; but let's stress this point: Spike quit.  

You can't quit Thunderdome and then claim that you would have won.  At all.  

Kaelik can claim to have won.  Since the point of the Thunderdome was to give Kaelik a chance to prove his claim (or prove him wrong, depending on your perspective) the fact that Kaelik wins serves as proof of his claim; there is no evidence to the contrary, and that is the purpose of the Thunderdome.

The chance to claim that Thunderdome won't prove anything is BEFORE it starts.  Once it starts, I'm fine with participation to keep rulings honest, but we didn't go so far that it was as much of an issue as it might be in Wizard vs. Fighter Thunderdome.  

The rulings that matter are:
1) the party can't see beyond 60' in darkness (ie, Kaelik's eyes aren't glowing)
2) the Bone Devil can see any distance in darkness.  He saw the party when they entered the tomb, since he was seated in the throne room (see map) with an unobstructed view of the entrance.
3) the Bone Devil can use greater teleport to move around the tomb.  He's familiar with the tomb, and the spell has no chance of teleporting him to a place he did not intend to go.  When the party went down the left passage, he saw them and could appear at the end of the right passage.
4) From the end of the right passage, he could see the party enter the Primarch's chamber.  
5) From the end of the right passage, he could create a wall of ice between himself and the party.  The wall of ice creates a plane - ie, a flat surface, from one wall to another.  Fectin originally ruled that the ceilings were 13 feet high, so at 150 square feet per casting, the Bone Devil can completely block the passage.  

Spike seemed dissatisfied with the ruling on See In Darkness.  I explained my reasoning, and I had posed the question to a neutral third-party site, where Kaelik has never posted.  

I ruled that wall of ice forms a single plane which Kaelik protested.  I had asked that question on the neutral site and the Gaming Den who reaffirmed my decision.  

Kaelik was not happy with me, because I gave a chance for a wall of ice forming to be heard, when nothing in the spell description indicates that it necessarily makes a sound.  Likewise he was not happy that I gave greater teleport a chance to be heard, since it requires no speech and no movement.  He was also pretty upset that I revealed he had sealed the entrance before the party would have found that out - I didn't think it would matter and they'd find out anyway, and I was interested in moving things along just as much as everyone else was.  But the fact of the matter is that the Bone Devil has weapons that rely on deception (like illusions) that revealing would have been difficult to avoid metagaming.  

For lack of participation by Spike, I have to assume that Kaelik's tactic of revealing a major image of a Bone Devil, and having it absorb attacks would have been largely successful.  I'm also forced to conclude that while the party might have stopped walls of ice forming if they were immediately next to them, that wouldn't have always been an option.  When Gareth was 20' ahead of the party scouting for traps, he could have been separated with no save.  You must be adjacent to the wall to attempt a Reflex save.  20' distance allows the wall to form with nobody 'adjacent' (ie, within 5').  

Again, I would have liked to see this go to the final conclusion, but because Spike quit, we're forced to concede victory to Kaelik.  He didn't have to complete the TPK to cause Spike to either realize it was inevitable, or it would be SO DIFFICULT to avoid as to not make it worth his time and effort.  Either way, that works out to a demonstration that an intelligently played opponent would TPK the party.

Quote from: One Horse Town;574685Do you wipe his arse for him as well?

Kaelik doesn't like me very much.  I've been trying to find an easy way to post PMs, but I haven't found one.  But here's a gem:

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalking

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalkingEach square is back to 5'.

Cool then, each time I cast Wall of Ice in the thinnest hallways I will create ten foot thick walls with 1 inch between them, taking up basically two squares. So that back hallway has walls covering four squares from my two castings.

I've been reading and re-reading wall of ice.  From the spell effect (plane) and description (anchored points) it could be argued that each casting creates only a single crossing of the hallway.  

The point of this is to ensure that nobody can cry 'foul' or indicate that this isn't fair.  I've asked for clarification from a neutral site on their interpretation of the wall of ice spell.  

Since it's 'at will', there's no problem with having done multiple walls in a small space, but if it only creates one breachable wall with each casting, truly locking in the group may take some time...  

I wanted to make you aware that I'm evaluating the way you described the spell working in order to be fair.  Again, I think there is probably grounds for each interpretation - if the party were casting it in the manner you describe, I'd similarly be inclined to consider limitations.  

Feel free to let me know why such an interpretation would be idiotic and/or whether you care if I use the 'least permissive' version of that spell for your purposes in showing the Bone Devil is awesome compared to the party.

You are an idiot, stop being an idiot.

You don't have to suck their fucking cocks in the name of fairness, because no matter what if they lose they will call you unfair.

That interpretation makes less than zero sense because the rules for Wall of Ice clearly state, "A vertical wall need only be anchored on the floor"

Therefore, obviously anywhere that there is floor, I can anchor the wall there. I am choosing to anchor the wall on the floor across the hallway, and then again and again.

I care that you are sucking their cocks in the name of fairness because I goddam don't want to have to specify that I am casting the spell sixteen times over every place that I want to create a wall.

I mean, it's bad enough that you decided that they entered the place during the one out of every fifty rounds that I'm not looking right at the entrance, but if you are literally going to nerf Wall of Ice then what the fuckity fuck is the point?

Not quite as saucy:

Quote from: Kaelik

Quote from: deadDMwalkingDC 15 - like people whispering.  There is a sound as ice forms.  A bit of a crackle.

Ice isn't forming. And that's my point.

There is absolutely no basis for any decision about how much sound is being made by the evocation of a wall of ice.

Therefore anything you decide is literally pulled right out of your ass.

The only acceptable interpretation is that if it makes a sound, the rules say it makes a sound, since they do in fact do that in many spell descriptions.

Not that it matters in this case, because him hearing a sound from far away doesn't even scare me.

Quote from: deadDMwalkingDefinitely 10 castings.  You realize that where you're casting them now you can do so without even moving?

Oh yes, that's why I didn't specify any moving.

If I finish ten castings before he rounds the corner with anyone, then I will (while still invisible) teleport to the very right hand end of the M hallway that he entered, and what I do next depends on where I see them in that hallway, or if I do.