I had very little luck with the CR system myself. Personally i started looking soley at stuff like potential damage output, immunities, AC and any key abilities or powers that could present a challenge and just eye balled it against the party. CR also doesn't account well for specfic circumstances. A tenth level wizard can be a challenge to an 8th level (dont recall the exact breakdon of the CR/EL charts) party or plowed through in moments depending on how eaily he can be swarmed in the first round (and whether he knows the pcs are coming and can prepare for them). Not to mention venue. Another potential issue is how optimized the party is.

I know some people had luck with the CR system, but I found it not very useful.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574529To claim that this did anything other than show that Kaelik's claim appears to be correct strikes me as disingenuous.

The only thing disingenuous would be to assume anything was solved without a single HP being inflicted.  Absolutely ridiculous.

Then perhaps Spike owes us an explanation of why he suicided his party.  Because Kaelik wasn't the one who gave up.  And if Spike was serious about championing the counter-claim that a core party could defeat the Bone Devil, quitting doesn't really help.  

From my perspective, the Thunderdome is complete.  One side is dead.  Spike can't give up and claim that he would have won if he kept playing.  That is disingenuous.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574592Then perhaps Spike owes us an explanation of why he suicided his party.  Because Kaelik wasn't the one who gave up.  And if Spike was serious about championing the counter-claim that a core party could defeat the Bone Devil, quitting doesn't really help.  

From my perspective, the Thunderdome is complete.  One side is dead.  Spike can't give up and claim that he would have won if he kept playing.  That is disingenuous.

Spike declaring victory would be just as fucking stupid and dishonest as you or Kaelik declaring victory.

It's a Thunderdome.  If both sides gave up, we'd call it a draw.  If one side gave up, we'd call the other the victor.  That's what happens when you forfeit - the other side wins.  You don't say 'neither side one because I quit' - the act of quitting is sufficient to render the other side victorious.  

I'm new here and don't have a lot of experience with Thunderdomes, but even I know that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;574598Spike declaring victory would be just as fucking stupid and dishonest as you or Kaelik declaring victory.

So what do you think the party was going to do to prevent the Bone Devil from dividing the party using Wall of Ice, using up their spells, preventing them from preparing new spells, wasting the durations on their buffs, and then killing them one by one when separated?

But of course, leave it this forum to declare that Spike realizing his obvious loss and giving up means that we can just never know what would have happened and all sides are equal. (But really we are just going to keep making fun of Kaelik and call him wrong.)

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574600It's a Thunderdome.  If both sides gave up, we'd call it a draw.  If one side gave up, we'd call the other the victor.  That's what happens when you forfeit - the other side wins.  You don't say 'neither side one because I quit' - the act of quitting is sufficient to render the other side victorious.  

I'm new here and don't have a lot of experience with Thunderdomes, but even I know that.

Fair enough he won.  However, that proves nothing, because he did absolutely nothing he claimed he could do except See in Darkness.  He didn't drop the Wizard, he didn't then survive anything the Fighter or Rogue could do (because they're supposedly worthless) while killing the Cleric - none.of.it.

What he proved is that a monster with Teleport, See in Darkness and Wall of Ice can indeed Teleport, See in Darkness and cast Wall of Ice.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574600It's a Thunderdome.  If both sides gave up, we'd call it a draw.  If one side gave up, we'd call the other the victor.  

That's not how Thunderdome works. We all know what happens when one side tries to back out of Thunderdome- Spike broke a deal.

"Bust a deal, face the Wheel!"

Someone should write up the random table and make Spike roll on it.

Not sure how you are going to divide the party up using Wall of Ice since it can't form in an area occupied by creatures.  They have to deliberately split up and move apart enough to give you that shot, they also get to disrupt it's creation if you get it too close to them.  

"Wall of Ice =/= I Win", sorry.
 

Quote from: Kaelik;574602we can just never know what would have happened and all sides are equal.

We don't know.  According to DDMW, you already made one rules interpretation mistake and were corrected by the Den itself.  Who knows what else might play out differently then what you think would happen?

That's kind of the whole point of your whole "absolute" nonsense.  You can count on what you need on a d20 to hit a certain DC.  What you can't count on is what a party may or may not do in any situation, what magic items they may or may not have, what spells may or may not be memorized, etc...

The best you can count on is a generalized "probably" or "maybe".

Quote from: gleichman;574608That's not how Thunderdome works. We all know what happens when one side tries to back out of Thunderdome- Spike broke a deal.

"Bust a deal, face the Wheel!"

Someone should write up the random table and make Spike roll on it.

That's actually not a bad idea.

Quote from: gleichman;574608That's not how Thunderdome works. We all know what happens when one side tries to back out of Thunderdome- Spike broke a deal.

"Bust a deal, face the Wheel!"

Someone should write up the random table and make Spike roll on it.

Roll 1d10
1) Auntie's Choice
2) Gulag
3) Acquittal
4) Hard Labor
5) Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods
7) Death
Underworld
9) Amputation
10) Life Imprisonment

Quote from: deadDMwalking;574592Then perhaps Spike owes us an explanation of why he suicided his party.  Because Kaelik wasn't the one who gave up.  And if Spike was serious about championing the counter-claim that a core party could defeat the Bone Devil, quitting doesn't really help.  

From my perspective, the Thunderdome is complete.  One side is dead.  Spike can't give up and claim that he would have won if he kept playing.  That is disingenuous.

He cant claim victory, but neither can kaelik. The party at least has to die for him to win, ad the scenarios were originally supposed to be played out a few times in order to account for flubbed rolls and such.

Quote from: Bill;574617Roll 1d10
1) Auntie’s Choice
2) Gulag
3) Acquittal
4) Hard Labor
5) Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods
7) Death
Underworld
9) Amputation
10) Life Imprisonment

We have to define these in therpgsite terms... here are some suggestions.

1) Auntie’s Choice- that would be Pundit's choice I'm afraid.
2) Gulag - Spike can't post at the site for 1 week
3) Acquittal - nothing happens to Spike, we can no longer bitch about his quitting either
4) Hard Labor - Spike has to buy, read and write of review of a crappy game.
5) Spin Again - Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods - Spike loses his avatar for a month
7) Death - hmm, difficult one. Replace his avatar with a dead pikachu one for a month.
Underworld - Ok, I'm running out of ideas
10) Life Imprisonment - Spike must put bars on his Avatar for one month

Quote from: CRKrueger;574611Not sure how you are going to divide the party up using Wall of Ice since it can't form in an area occupied by creatures.  They have to deliberately split up and move apart enough to give you that shot, they also get to disrupt it's creation if you get it too close to them.  

"Wall of Ice =/= I Win", sorry.

Sure.  But Kaelik did win.  Spike gave up.  

But as far as dividing up the party, that seems pretty likely to have happened.  The range for the spell is 250 feet.  That's well beyond the darkvision range of the party and there were several places on the map (again, chosen by Fectin) that would have allowed the Bone Devil to try to create a wall of ice between any two characters.  While a Reflex save would allow them to disrupt the spell, the Bone Devil can do it an unlimited number of times per day (well, 14,400 times if a round is 6 seconds), so he pretty much could have done it until it worked.  Again, Spike may have had an answer to that, but because he quit, we should assume he did not.  
 

Quote from: CRKrueger;574611We don't know.  According to DDMW, you already made one rules interpretation mistake and were corrected by the Den itself.  Who knows what else might play out differently then what you think would happen?

I think you're drawing more from this then you should.  Kaelik wanted to use a wall of ice to effectively zig-zag down the passage (so each casting would create 4 or more places that needed to be breached).  Since it forms a plane, in order to block the passage 4 times, he needed to cast the spell 4 times (not once).  This meant he had to take more actions then he wanted to do, but since this primarily was in relation to the 'treasure area' that Spike never penetrated to, it is basically immaterial.  The party was facing only a single wall of ice at the point we ended the scenario - but it could have been a hallway full of them, since Spike was being thorough in his investigations (which usually equates to spending 2 full minutes searching each 5' square).  

Quote from: CRKrueger;574611That's kind of the whole point of your whole "absolute" nonsense.  You can count on what you need on a d20 to hit a certain DC.  What you can't count on is what a party may or may not do in any situation, what magic items they may or may not have, what spells may or may not be memorized, etc...

The best you can count on is a generalized "probably" or "maybe".

Sure.  Kaelik proved that the Bone Devil, played intelligently can 'probably' beat a core-only party.  This is the type of thing where if you run the scenario 1000 times, if the party loses the 'vast majority' the claim is effectively true.  Very few claims are true in all situations without qualification - and the 'played intelligently' is always going to be up for debate.  But we saw no evidence that the party had a plan to defeat the Bone Devil, and we have seen no evidence that they would have won in this first scenario.  Any claims that they might win is pure speculation without any evidence to support it - and a significant amount to contradict it.  So sure, sometimes the party might win - but clearly rarely enough that Kaelik has successfully defended his claim.

It's like watching a bunch of retards trying to fuck a door-knob.