Well, if you must know...

Any creature that has Spell-Like Abilities can use them without speaking or moving.  So, there's virtually no chance to hear anything.  Particularly with the -1 per 10 feet of distance.  

Since Kaelik is aware of the party, he is taking some actions that COULD be noticed, but only by a particularly observant party and only if the distance were closer.  Kaelik's actions are being sent via Play-By-Post but his ability to know where the party is is not exceptional.  Home field advantage, and all that.  

I have no doubt that Spike's party will encounter evidence of Kaelik before they actually come across him, but I'll try to be fair about it.  

For being fair, Kaelik insists I'm sucking the cock of theRPGsite, so not that anyone will appreciate it, but as an impartial arbiter, I've told him 'no' more often than I've told him 'yes'.

Edit - And it will be obvious later - Kaelik appearing on a particular round will likely be long after the current spot/listens cease to matter - once Spike encounters the generated effect it shouldn't matter too much.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;573828For being fair, Kaelik insists I'm sucking the cock of theRPGsite, so not that anyone will appreciate it, but as an impartial arbiter, I've told him 'no' more often than I've told him 'yes'.

You didn't declare him winner before anything actually started, so what did you expect?

If they both agreed to deadDM should run it seems fair enough to me. But too much stuff by PM is likley to make people feel their is collusion (even if kaelik is being told no more than yes behind the scenes). In the interest of transparency saving the pms and posting them after the they become important might be a good idea (not any personal exchanges just the moves and actions so people know everything is above board). Another option is the honor system where pm stuff is just given a spoiler tag (of course pretty hard to stop someone looking at that if they are dishonest, but you can also clamp down on either side acting on player knowledge when it is obvious if that does happen).

Quote from: CRKrueger;573830You didn't declare him winner before anything actually started, so what did you expect?

Oh look, another instance of you making fun of me for something someone else said because you can't tell posters apart.

Well, Kaelik, you AND MGuy seem to miss that at least half of the point of thunderdome is to publicly observe the results, which is damned hard to do with half (or more, I suspect in the other thread) of the 'actions' are completely missing except for results.

Afraid I'll metagame? Sorry, people should be able to see that just fine based on how I post.  Besides: WHy should it matter?  I mean... Bone Devils are SOOOOOO powerful.

Jesus, its like you guys never even watched the movie or something. It wasn't mad max swinging wildly in the dark while the other guy crept around invisibly: It was two dudes being watched by ever single motherfucker in bartertown!

Watch, see?

Whatever.  You gwan wit ya bad sell, ninjaboy.  I'm a sport.

Anyway, once we're done with the bedchamber it'll be back to the intersection.

Same deal on the way back. Jurgen will scan all three corridors after gareth has waved him forward as being safe.

1d20 → [7] = (7)
1d20 → [20] = (20)
1d20 → [4] = (4)
1d20 → [7] = (7)
1d20 → [12] = (12)
1d20 → [2] = (2)
1d20 → [12] = (12)
1d20 → [19] = (19)


Same order as before.  Dag has a 9 spot and 22 listen
                             Jurgen has a 7 spot and 10 listen
                          Ambrose has a 13 spot and 3 listen
                         Gareth has a 27 spot and a 32 listen

Quote from: Spike;573881Well, Kaelik, you AND MGuy seem to miss that at least half of the point of thunderdome is to publicly observe the results, which is damned hard to do with half (or more, I suspect in the other thread) of the 'actions' are completely missing except for results.

1) If the results aren't missing, then how are people having difficulty observing the results?

2) Apparently you are missing half the point of reading the thread.

Our illustrious DM said, "The 'action' will follow the PCs, which means Kaelik (and anyone reading this thread) will know what the PCs are doing. If it were the DM controlling the monster, he would have this same information, so it shouldn't cause any problems. I will enforce 'reasonable actions' from Kaelik. Effectively, the audience will be aware of what the party is doing, but will not know what Kaelik is doing until the party encounterse him. Kaelik will agree (like any good DM would) not to take any action that would be unreasonable in the situation. Expecting interlopers falls into 'reasonable' category, and Kaelik will communicate any preparations he makes to the terrain (via PM) before the start of the scenario."

If you had a problem with it, maybe you should have brought it up back on page 13.

Quote from: Spike;573881Afraid I'll metagame? Sorry, people should be able to see that just fine based on how I post.

There are versions of metagaming that are subtle enough that they can't be proved, like taking a holy weapon to go fight a devil even though holy weapons are actually really bad because they do nothing against the vast majority of enemies, or adventuring only under the application of stoneskin which is only three hours long and costs 250gp a casting because you believed that the tactics used would be an ambush on the Wizard, or picking the hallway that is most inconvenient for me when face with a three way intersection.

Now, under none of those circumstances would your metagaming be so obvious that I could prove, but at the same time, you absolutely could do it.

Since you have led me to believe through our previous conversations that you are a fundamentally dishonest person, I am happy that in this case, there is no possibility of you metagaming the way actions are currently being resolved. Because you do not know what is going on, there is no possibility of you picking the hallway you enter based on information your characters should not know, because you only know what your characters know, and in fact, only know what a DM would actually tell you in an actual game.

I'm also confident that when my actions become apparent/are explained, that no one with even a shred of honesty will be able to claim that my failing to post openly allowed me to get away with anything at all.

Quote from: Spike;573881Bone Devils are SOOOOOO powerful.

I said that Bone Devils are capable of TPKing an average core party when played intelligently.

No part of that requires me to believe that it would fair as well against a party that was cheating by having knowledge of things it couldn't possibly have knowledge of.

Especially since I specifically pointed out asymmetric information as one of the reasons the Bone Devil is likely to be able to TPK.

Quote from: Spike;573881Jesus, its like you guys never even watched the movie or something. It wasn't mad max swinging wildly in the dark while the other guy crept around invisibly: It was two dudes being watched by ever single motherfucker in bartertown!

If you want to watch, all you need is See in Darkness and See Invisibility. I see you just fine.

Whatever, man. I can't make you post.

As for holy weapons: if you actually go through the monster manual I think you'll find they work on a larger percentage of critters than you think. Two entire catagories of monster, both of which are common across a wide range of levels, are highly vulnerable to them (That is Undead and Evil Outsiders).

That is not to mention that the vast majority of villains and monsters are more likely to be evil than any other alignment.

Once  you can show me the list of critters that are resistant to or out and out immune to holy damage* as compared to elemental damage I'll consider that players might actually be poorly served by buying one.


*And, you know, likely to actually be opposed to PCs.  Again: Being on Team Evil does nothing to keep most (if not all) evil monsters from eating your face, but being on Team Good actually gives Good 'monsters' reasons not to attack you. Unless your DM is eight shades of asshole.

I'm the newbie here, so I guess I don't know how you run Thunderdomes.  

Since I don't see it causing a problem, here's what's happened so far:

When Spike came to the bottom of the stairs, Kaelik was able to see him.  While Spike's team has 60' darkvision, the Bone Devil (since that's what Kaelik is) has See in Darkness - basically, he can see in darkness as if it were bright light.  

Kaelik didn't do anything while Spike investigated the first two rooms.  

After the last member of the group moved down the hallway he started casting Wall of Ice multiple times to seal off the entrance.  

Now that is done, the Bone Devil teleports to the intersection while the party is investigating the bed chamber/office of the Primarch.  

He doesn't need to move or talk to do that, but maybe he misses his landing and makes a small noise.  

I'll take a Move Silently Check from Kaelik and a Listen check from Spike's team.  

Bear in mind that there's some significant distance.  

Let's go ahead and put everything into the public eye.  

We're now going Round by Round.  

Round 1
The Bone Devil teleports to the intersection.  

Does Spike's team notice him?  [Roll Listen checks]

What happened with all the checks I just made? Are they voided now?



Also: Just to add, that is an... interesting interpretation of See In Darkness.  Why do Devils have Darkvision 60' listed?  Just curious on your take, not contesting the ruling.

Round 1 Continued
Spike fails to notice anything (there is nothing to see, and he is too far away to hear what amounts to a whisper.

Round 2
Since Spike is still unaware of Kaelik's presence, Kaelik may take his action.  The party is still investigating the room at the end of the hall.

Housekeeping
Kaelik has made a convincing argument that revealing his actions will make his tactics less effective.  It's hard to avoid metagaming, and if I were DMing the Bone Devil, I would not reveal his actions to the party.  In the name of fairness, we'll stick with my original plan of following the party's progress and only revealing what they can see.

To satisfy the audience, I will reveal all the PMs at the end of the encounter.  

Regarding my impartiality -
I do not care if Kaelik wins or not.  While I've been vocal in the 'Fighter versus Wizard' debate, I don't see how the Fighter and the Wizard being on the same team is important to that question.  If the Fighter fails to contribute in a meaningful fashion (as I anticipate) it reinforces my position in that debate even if the party wins.  Further, I have no problem with being proven wrong by examples from play (such as this).  While it doesn't match my recent experience with the game, I'm happy to consider evidence contrary to my opinion - evidence that has been lacking up to now.  

In the effort of fairness, we will take actions one round at a time.  This will be time-consuming, but since economy of actions will matter, it will have an effect if Spike's party spends 20 rounds searching a room or 1 round searching a room.  To be fair to Kaelik, each round will be described on a round by round basis.  

Kaelik,

For Spike's convenience, can you post a map that includes the portions he has seen and explored so far (with areas he has not explored or seen omitted).  Please let me know if that would be particularly difficult - if so I'll do it when I'm at home.


Edit - Regarding See in Darkness:

•See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

'Perfectly' is a pretty strong adjective.  They designers could have said 'devils darkvision works in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell'.  That would have indicated that only their normal darkvision (60 or 120 feet, possibly) would work.  Seeing perfect means being able to see as far as an unbroken line of sight allows, in my opinion.  I can see out the window and across the street at least 400 feet.

Further, all outsiders have Darkvision 60-ft.  Not all outsiders have See in Darkness.  While darkvision is essentially redundant, it would always be listed because it is a feature that they also have.  That's just an artificact of 3rd edition 'standarization' - sometimes things get listed that don't matter.  Like listing Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration - listing everything is just the way it works.  Every Outsider has Darkvision 60' listed under Special Qualities.  

I also asked the question on a neutral site and received a response confirming my ruling from three other posters whose opinions I respect, with no arguments to the contrary.  

At the same time, I also had them a secondary question on one of Kaelik's special abilities.  They agreed with me that Kaelik's proposed way of using the spell-like ability was incorrect.  To mollify him, I also asked the question on the Den and they confirmed his understanding was mistaken.

Quote from: Spike;574050Also: Just to add, that is an... interesting interpretation of See In Darkness.  Why do Devils have Darkvision 60' listed?  Just curious on your take, not contesting the ruling.

That's not an interesting interpretation of See in Darkness, it's the only possible interpretation.

Why do Demons have Darkvision 60ft even though they don't have See in Darkness? Because the Outsider type grants Darkvision 60ft, being a Devil grants See In Darkness, which is better than Darkvision, except in the respect that it is Su, so you would lose it in an AMF and have to rely on their Darkvision.

http://postimage.org/image/bkbefzsgl/

Map so far.

Kaelik, thanks for posting the map so far.  That's perfect.

Spike, I misstated Kaelik's position (which will be clear when I post the PMs at the end), but since you SHOULDN'T know where he is, I'm not going to reveal the true and correct position.

Sure, whatever man. I keep doing what I've been doing. You go ahead and roll for me until Kaelik's devil finds his balls and actually does something.

Ooh.... look at me, I'm METAGAMING! :rolleyes:



Seriously though: I thought this was supposed to be a TPK challenge. Obviously if a little thing like posting openly would take away his ability to kill me, its not nearly as overwhelming as he thought.

Fucking PM me when he actually does something I care about.

I know this was posted in another thread, but as far as the parts that relate to this Thunderdome, I thought I should address them here.

Quote from: Spike;574082By way of illustration: Kaelik recently challenged me to a series of battles against his choice of monsters. What were they? Four devils and an earth elemental.

Why four devils? Why no demons? Why no undead?

Ah. You see, now I know: See in Darkness.  

This (su) power is unique to devils, and in what appears to be a common interpretation of the power, it utterly negates the fact that Devils have darkvision... they simply don't experience darkness at all!

Well: that's a perfectly good interpretation, when I think about it. Sure. It does mean that the writers/editors of the Monster Manual were a bit... lacking in that department, but its something reasonable for fantasy devils to do.

Didn't check the time stamp, but again, all Outsiders have Darkvision.  Devils that have See in Darkness don't lose any of their other Outsider traits just because they become redundant.  And as Kaelik pointed out, See in Darkness is supernatural, which means it would not work in an area of null magic.  Darkvision would continue to work just fine.  

Quote from: Spike;574082Well, really?  I mean, if in my Shadowrun game I put a bunch of two-bit hoods on every rooftop with sniper rifles, it obviously makes the game unplayable. Simply saying that 'I'm playing the NPC's smart' is a cop out.

If you only pull monsters that have an impossible to beat trick and you design your encounters to hammer that trick home (such as having dungeons with 100-200 foot straight corridors and no light...) every time that doesn't make the game broken, it means you are a shitty DM.

Fectin chose the map, which a portion of which has now been revealed to you to see for yourself.  The map looks like a 'Download of the Week' from Wizards of the Coast, so it's pretty clearly a prop for a lazy DM, not a shitty DM.  And with all the other things to do in our games, coming up with interesting maps isn't aways the best use of time (though I do love me some 1st edition DMG random dungeon creation).  

That said, while See in Darkness isn't an unbeatable weapon, it is certainly a powerful advantage for the devil.  If you want to concede that 'See in Darkness' in the current scenario makes the Bone Devil unbeatable (because he can stay outside of your ability to see) we can skip all the Devils and move straight to the Elemental.  That would be an admission that Kaelik's point that an intelligently played opponent can wreak havoc with an 'appropriate party' if played intelligently.  

Quote from: Spike;574082This corresponds to my second observation.  Both Kaelik and MGuy want to demonstrate how much better their perspective is, which is an understandable trait, so both agreed to a Thunderdome arena fight, where they could strut their stuff.

Both insist, however, in hiding every single thing they do: Assymetrical information.  Neither of their opponents (Myself and Panzerkraken) have... to the best of my knowledge hidden anything.

As far as the Fighter vs. Wizard Thunderdome, we've only seen Panzerkraken's observable actions.  I assume that what he is doing in the solid fog will not be revealed, at least, not directly.  Obviously it would be hard for Mguy NOT to metagame what his summoned creatures know, but we should give him a shot.  

But Kaelik is absolutely right that he can see the party and the party cannot see him.  Revealing his actions undermines his advantage.  My goal is not to be a shitty DM, but there's no real reason for the Bone Devil to reveal himself in this encounter.  Now, that might be different if he had something he was defending - basically he'd have to fend them off and/or prevent them from leaving with whatever he was guarding...  But this is THUNDERDOME.  Two sides enter, one side leaves.  Death is the only victory condition.  I didn't make those rules, either.  

So to be fair, Spike, you agreed to this challenge believing that it would not be terribly difficult to defeat the Bone Devil.  Kaelik believes that the Bone Devil is much more difficult than its CR would suggest.  It looks like you've come to agree with him (because See in Darkness is powerful).  

Quote from: Spike;574082Kaelik, certainly, is on record for stating he is afraid I'll metagame and somehow throw off his TPK monster. He's as much as accused me of already doing so openly.

Kaelik and I have discussed this somewhat extensively.  It's hard NOT to metagame certain things.  Please accept that this is in your best interest.  If you win as a result of information your characters should not reasonably have, it fails to prove your point or dispute Kaelik's point.  I've told Kaelik that certain, let's say, interpretations, that might be acceptable in normal play also do little to support his contention.  A bad ruling (or even an acceptable but permissive ruling) may taint his victory.  For that reason, if asked to make a ruling, I'll be conservative, even if that's not really strictly necessary.  For example, a Bone Devil does not increase the CR even if it is given different Feats and Skills - even if those different abilities actually work to make it MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE in combat.  Kaelik has been asked to use a 'standard' monster, rather than an 'optimized monster', even though part of his contention is that an intelligently played opponent will have chosen skills and feats that are better than the Monster Manual default.  Effectively, I've asked him to prove his point with one hand tied behind his back.  I want the focus to be on whether the monster as written is broken, not if the monster, with optimization can be broken.  

Quote from: Spike;574082Allow me to suggest that if your concept only works with absolute control of the battlefield and information, then maybe its not as overpowered as you think.  In MGuy's case, its even less excuseable: At least Kaelik can claim that GM's do this all the time. MGuy is, essentially, in a PvP fight where only one player is openly announcing his actions.

From my perspective, players should only have information that their character has.  If I were running a PvP fight, I might ask for the players to provide their actions in note form.  Clearly, if one side could observe the other while the other was not observed, I would reveal what he or she sees.  For example, if Mguy were invisible and Panzerkraken were visible, I'd have no problem asking Panzerkraken to announce his actions publicy, while allowing Mguy to continue passing notes.  

Quote from: Spike;574082Aside from the obsessive need to stack the deck in their favor, when by their own arguments the deck is pre-stacked anyway, it shows a fundamental lack of comprehension of the PURPOSE of the challenges.  If my party wanders around aimlessly for a few more days worth of posts before his Devil finally attacks, and all anyone sees is DeadDM announcing that a surprise round had occured and the wizard was dead... it is impossible for me, or for that matter the members of this site to actually tell what happened.

Posting 'after the fact' justifications is a poor sop for this obfuscation.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I can't understand why you would think you should have information your characters don't possess.  I was tempted to post actions for Kaelik in spoiler form so the audience could follow his actions while hiding them from you, but discussion of the rules could reveal his intent accidentally.   Better to avoid tipping his hand.  Bearing in mind that Kaelik can see in darkness more than 60' and therefore there may only be auditory clues to his presence (and I'll point out, he doesn't think there should be - not needing to move or speak gives him a valid point, but I think that saying 'you're automatically totally silent' is a little unfair - because there's always a CHANCE he scuffs his foot or something, even if he's just teleporting - maybe the floor isn't perfectly flat), but by the rules, the odds of noticing him are very small.  I'd consider the DC to be no lower than 15 (as someone whispering) with a -1 for 10 feet, if he's not close, the listen checks will fail.  

Quote from: Spike;574082At this point I'm reasonably certain that Kaelik has given up on actually winning his TPK challenge and is trying to bore me to death. Two real time days I've been tromping through that dungeon.  I've made three or four real offers to speed up to the point where he ambushes me, just to get it over with.  I think, at this point, he'd rather I quit so he can declare victory without actually having to produce anything.

I think he intends to win, but taking his time works to his advantage.  

Quote from: SRD•Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish).

Preventing you from sleeping is a valid tactic that an intelligent devil might try.  With an Intelligence of 14 (above human average) taking advantage of that fact seems reasonable.  Kaelik hasn't announced that is part of his plan, but there's no reason it couldn't be.  Getting bored and diving into melee with the party would not be 'playing the opponent intelligently'.  

Quote from: Spike;574082What they didn't consider was that some people would read things like 'Teleport at will' and assume that implied a different sort of monster, one that fights, I'm guessing, like nightcrawler from the X-men, or uses invisibility constantly (there are monsters for that called Invisible Stalkers) and that by NOT using those "At Will" powers every single round they were somehow 'doing it wrong'.

Again, this is the core of Kaelik's contention.  The monsters may have been assumed to be stupid, but nothing in the mechanics suggest it.  To play the monster appropriately, you should take advantage of these abilities.  The designers may not have conceived of how the monsters would be used, but they should have been cognizant of how they could be used.  Limiting the at will powers to a number of times/day would dramatically reduce the options to fight 'like Nightcrawler from the X-men'.