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So, I'm thinking of a wound system where "star characters" don't get wounded in the traditional RPG sense.  Instead, as they take damage, they suffer reduced effectiveness of some type.  This is cumulative the more they're hurt.  This is supposed to represent fatigue in battle and how the more their battered the slower they act, etc.

Somewhere in here is a saving throw, take too much damage and fall down.  In that aspect, the damage system is conventional, but I do have a twist.

At any time before the character falls down from injury, the character can convert all his damage into a sort of fudge point.  This simulates what I call the "wrestler syndrome" where the hero has been pounded until he can barely walk, but suddenly finds the strength inside to open up a can of ultimate whoop ass.

The catch is that once the hurt character "cashes in" in this manner, the next significant wound will drop them.

Thoughts?

That's a neat idea -- could work for some horror RPGs as well. (eg. The "Dead" killer gets back up)

I think D&D... all versions... has never handled Hit Points for characters the way I believe they were initially intended.  Gaining hit points doesn't mean your character is getting more resistant to being stabbed.  It means they're getting better in combat.  

I really mean all versions of D&D.  I think Gary Gygax had an idea that got derailed by some of his other ideas for the game.  The core idea is good, but the implementation has never been right.  The terminology, the way healing works, the way traps work, the way combat works... it doesn't work with the initial concept of "hit points".

At least, that's *my* point of view. :p  

And it's the POV I'm approaching the design of my FRPG from (and the SFRPG as well).

Quote from: StuartI think D&D... all versions... has never handled Hit Points for characters the way I believe they were initially intended.  Gaining hit points doesn't mean your character is getting more resistant to being stabbed.  It means they're getting better in combat.  

I handle this by having something like a Hit Point mechanic, but having it deplete based on the difference of the attack roll against the defense of the character rather than the damage roll.

We might be on a similar track. :)

I guess what I meant was -- "hit points" and "damage rolls" are the wrong terms if what you really mean is "lose X points as your guy gets out of the way". :)

Watch the Lord of the Rings movies.  How many times do they characters get "hit" and take "damage"?  When they DO get hit and take damage -- they're wounded.  There's no getting peppered with arrows and you keep on trucking. If you get HIT, you get HURT.

I'm being careful about terms like "hit", "damage" and "healing" in my game.

Torg had something vaguely like this... you take damage based on the damage rating of the weapon, the die result, and your Toughness.

But THEN you could spend Possibilities to 'buy off' this damage.

So the experience is 'Oh CRAP I just got my head blown off! Er... I spend a possibility, I buy off two wounds and... hrm. Don't have enough not to be knocked out. Ok, I'm knocked out. But still have my head on.'

I've often thought that allowing a mechanic like that to apply after the fact might be perfect for the dramatic 'comes back' drama, but I haven't seen a system where there'd be a point in doing so.

One possibility would be something like 'I take a decent wound... I'm going to say my character collapses, and earn a hero point for the setback. In the next scene, my character 'recovers,' and now I have a hero point to use...'

But players are notorious about not accepting short term setbacks like that.

Hmmm.

Quote from: StuartWe might be on a similar track. :)

I guess what I meant was -- "hit points" and "damage rolls" are the wrong terms if what you really mean is "lose X points as your guy gets out of the way". :)

Watch the Lord of the Rings movies.  How many times do they characters get "hit" and take "damage"?  When they DO get hit and take damage -- they're wounded.  There's no getting peppered with arrows and you keep on trucking. If you get HIT, you get HURT.

I'm being careful about terms like "hit", "damage" and "healing" in my game.

I understand what you mean.  I have the same problem.

A "wound" for a NPC may mean a sword run through their torso.  A "wound" for a PC may merely mean a deep, painful, but not immediately life threatening gash on their arm.  

A more accurate term would be "significant damage."  For a throwaway NPC like some Goblin minion the only significant amount of damage which really concerns us is enough to kill or otherwise incapacitate the NPC.  For a more major character, a significant amount of damage would be enough to hamper the character in some tangible way.

I'm thinking of just keeping a tally of damage points inflicted on a character.  Each time these damage points pass a certain threshold (determined by the Body stat of the character), then penalties to actions will be applied.  They can keep on acting as long as they make a Body saving throw after each bit of inflicted damage.  Failure at this save means the character is incapacitated.

I guess it's very much like Cyberpunk 2020's method, now that I think of it.

As long as the character hasn't failed a KO Save (I guess that's a good thing to call it), they can declare that they're "Battle Inspired."  This means that all penalties for damage disappear, and the character receives a number of fudge points for combat rolls based on the amount of damage they sustained prior to the Battle Inspiration.  (either all the damage or a percentage)  The drawback is that they can take only one Wound, or one level of significant damage, before they are rendered incapacitated, no saving throw.

For a throwaway NPC, you don't even keep track of all that.  A wound/significant level of damage simply renders them incapacitated.  Less than that maybe stuns them, makes them lose an action, or something.

Quote from: WillTorg had something vaguely like this... you take damage based on the damage rating of the weapon, the die result, and your Toughness.

But THEN you could spend Possibilities to 'buy off' this damage.

So the experience is 'Oh CRAP I just got my head blown off! Er... I spend a possibility, I buy off two wounds and... hrm. Don't have enough not to be knocked out. Ok, I'm knocked out. But still have my head on.'

I've often thought that allowing a mechanic like that to apply after the fact might be perfect for the dramatic 'comes back' drama, but I haven't seen a system where there'd be a point in doing so.

One possibility would be something like 'I take a decent wound... I'm going to say my character collapses, and earn a hero point for the setback. In the next scene, my character 'recovers,' and now I have a hero point to use...'

But players are notorious about not accepting short term setbacks like that.

Hmmm.

Not exactly what I'm talking about but definitely along the same lines.

Torg is definitely part of the inspiration for this idea.  The thing I don't like about Torg is having to cross reference that chart and having to keep track of KO, shock, and wounds.

As for the trade offs, right on the nose.  This is precisely what I'm after.  The player should consider the idea of taking a minor wound in order to build up a sort of "Limit Break".  (hey, that's a much better description than Battle Inspiration.)

This is why I like having HP split into VP and WP.  It makes it very clear what is a near miss or parry or what have you and what it a sword in the face.

I'd contemplated such a rule before, in what I dubbed 'The boromir rule'.  This came from my distaste of characters getting brought back from the dead all the time.  I mean if you get killed and all that means is you need a spell, then to me you aren't dead so much as grieviously wounded.  So change the rules so that going below -10 just means you are badly wounded, and must get to a powerful cleric to recover.  Raise dead and Resurrection turn into spells to heal terrible wounds, not return the dead to life.  Otherwise it could take months, or you may pass on your own.

The exception to this is the Boromir rule, where the PC rises to his feet for one last dramatic battle.  He fights at full effectiveness for several rounds before collapsing and dying.  No spell will help the character at this point.

Never got to put it into practice, but it sounds pretty cool.

QuoteThe exception to this is the Boromir rule, where the PC rises to his feet for one last dramatic battle. He fights at full effectiveness for several rounds before collapsing and dying. No spell will help the character at this point.

Also know as the Roy Fokker rule in Sci-Fi / Anime games. ;)

Quote from: GabrielSo, I'm thinking of a wound system where "star characters" don't get wounded in the traditional RPG sense.  Instead, as they take damage, they suffer reduced effectiveness of some type.  This is cumulative the more they're hurt. ... At any time before the character falls down from injury, the character can convert all his damage into a sort of fudge point. ...
Thoughts?

This idea has some similarities to the trauma system I incorporated into the early beta versions of Gnostigmata.  In Gnostigmata, players roll pools of d6's and try to beat a threshold.  The more skill a character has, the more dice a player can roll in a contest.  Each d6 rolling above the threshold represents a "success" that the character attains in the conflict.  All contests are opposed, so the side with the greatest number of successes wins.

The threshold that each d6 had to overcome is based on a number of factors, one of them being damage.  Essentially, the threshold equals the maximum of a number of trauma attributes.  In beta 1.0, these trauma attributes were: "Agony", "Stun", "Wounds", and "Handicaps".   (Actually, there were others related to emotional trauma as well, but I'm focusing on physical damage to illustrate the point.)

Agony was the default trauma attribute.  That is, if a player did not apply damage points to a different attribute, then it was added to Agony.  However, if Agony ever hit a value of 7 or more, the character died.  When a character took damage, his player could opt to apply the damage points to one of the other three trauma attributes, as long as he described how his character was harmed.  Quite often, a player would want to do this, in order to keep the maximum of the 4 attributes as low as possible, which kept the threshold his d6's had to overcome in contests as low as possible.

All Stun damage disappeared at the end of every scene, Wounds lowered by one point at the end of every scene, and Handicaps never healed except through magic.  Generally, players prefered Stun over Wounds and Wounds over Handicaps.  But, players always wanted to keep the threshold low, so they would opt for more serious Wounds and/or Handicaps when necessary in order to remain effective in a scene.

The damage system worked pretty well.  I ended up stripping most of it out in the interest of simplicity, but I really agonized over the decision.

If this seems like an idea that might help your game design along, please feel free to use it.

Quote from: John KirkThis idea has some similarities to the trauma system I incorporated into the early beta versions of Gnostigmata.  In Gnostigmata, players roll pools of d6's and try to beat a threshold.  The more skill a character has, the more dice a player can roll in a contest.  Each d6 rolling above the threshold represents a "success" that the character attains in the conflict.  All contests are opposed, so the side with the greatest number of successes wins.

The threshold that each d6 had to overcome is based on a number of factors, one of them being damage.  Essentially, the threshold equals the maximum of a number of trauma attributes.  In beta 1.0, these trauma attributes were: "Agony", "Stun", "Wounds", and "Handicaps".   (Actually, there were others related to emotional trauma as well, but I'm focusing on physical damage to illustrate the point.)

Agony was the default trauma attribute.  That is, if a player did not apply damage points to a different attribute, then it was added to Agony.  However, if Agony ever hit a value of 7 or more, the character died.  When a character took damage, his player could opt to apply the damage points to one of the other three trauma attributes, as long as he described how his character was harmed.  Quite often, a player would want to do this, in order to keep the maximum of the 4 attributes as low as possible, which kept the threshold his d6's had to overcome in contests as low as possible.

All Stun damage disappeared at the end of every scene, Wounds lowered by one point at the end of every scene, and Handicaps never healed except through magic.  Generally, players prefered Stun over Wounds and Wounds over Handicaps.  But, players always wanted to keep the threshold low, so they would opt for more serious Wounds and/or Handicaps when necessary in order to remain effective in a scene.

The damage system worked pretty well.  I ended up stripping most of it out in the interest of simplicity, but I really agonized over the decision.

If this seems like an idea that might help your game design along, please feel free to use it.

This is actually very close to my initial thoughts on my damage system, and the player descriptions/allocations are exactly the kind of thing I'd really like the system to do.  (but had mostly abandoned to abstraction)

I'm going to think on this and let it simmer for a while.

How about True 20??
Where you roll a toughness save to reduce the amount of damage inflicted, if you fail by 5 then you're wounded and get a -2 penalizer to all your subsequent rolls, if you fail by 10 then your incapacited, etc.

True20/M&M isn't quite there, but I think the role of hero points helps (in much the same way as Possibilities in Torg).

I think it'd be neat, however, to fiddle with the damage system such that specific attacks are translated into other powers.

That is, I hit his leg.. the attack is translated into the power: Do some damage, slow the target (Say, a 10 point attack becomes a 5 point damage/5 point slow down attack).

Here's what I've decided on for now.

Everyone keeps track of Damage Inflicted (DI).  This is a running total on the character sheet.  It's just like HPs, only in reverse.  You keep adding to DI up to a hypothetical infinite number rather than subtracting down to zero.

Everyone has a Wound Threshold (WT).  The Wound Threshold tells how many points of damage it takes to equal one Wound.  Divide the DI by the WT to get the total number of Wounds inflicted on the character.

Wounds are the significant blocks of damage which the system tracks.  They mean different things for different types of characters.

Minor Characters have a Maximum Wounds (MW) which states the number of Wounds needed to incapacitate them.  Once they have a number of Wounds inflicted equal to their MW, they fall down.  If the number of Wounds inflicted is 1 or more greater than the MW, they're dead.

Major Characters use a different procedure.  As each Wound is inflicted, they must make Stamina checks based on the highest Wound level they are currently at, and must make as many checks as Wounds inflicted in the single attack.  The Stamina check is equal to the total Wounds times 5.  Failure means incapacitation.  Success means the character is still conscious and faces a -2 stackable penalty per Wound to all non-defensive actions.

Major Characters aren't killed in the traditional sense.  They can be rendered incapacitated by damage.  Death is only by direct GM intervention, until I think of a better rule for it.

More or less, I seem to have just stolen Cyberpunk's damage system.

Damage can also be absorbed by Combat Pool Points (which can also be used to modify defense totals).  I'm considering adding a rule which replenishes Combat Pool Points if you take the damage to DI (actual damage) rather than absorbing it with Combat Pool.

Major Characters can declare a Limit Break.  Declaring a Limit Break erases all check penalties for the duration of the Limit Break.  Also, it awards points to your character's Limit Break Pool equal to the current Damage Inflicted at the point of the Limit Break.  Limit Break Pool Points can be used to modify attack and defense rolls, but cannot be used to absorb damage.  Limit Break Pool Points can also be awarded for playing the character well, and emotionally, and generally being cool during combat.  When a character's Limit Break expires, all points in the Limit Break Pool disappear.

Damage values for weapons are directly lifted from d20 games.

Checks are d20 based (Attribute Modifier + skill + modifiers + 1d20).

I remember one idea they had on AnimalBall (it must have been Brasky or Mike) who wanted to do a original Star Trek-style RPG while HP were represented by the number of Red Shirts you had surrounding your PC.

Quote from: dsivisI remember one idea they had on AnimalBall (it must have been Brasky or Mike) who wanted to do a original Star Trek-style RPG while HP were represented by the number of Red Shirts you had surrounding your PC.

In many wargames you can only attack a unit, and not a specific character within a unit.  When the unit is hit and a character is killed, the player controlling the unit can decide which character gets removed.  This will almost always be one of the "red shirts" and not the hero attached to that unit.

This is one of the non-RPG design patterns I'm adapting for my RPG. :)

I've put the following together for d20 type games (D&D etc.):

Multiply Con by 6, then divide by 5. In the case of remainders, divide those evenly at one point per category. So a PC with a Con of 13 would get 78 points (13x6) with 15 per category and 3 points left over. So the first three categories would have 16 points, and the final two 15.

And what are the categories?

Minor Wound
Light Wound
Medium Wound
Serious Wound
Critical Wound
Fatal Wound
Death.

Using the example above the progression would be:

1-16: Minor Wound
17-32: Light Wound
33-48: Medium Wound
49-63: Serious Wound
64-78: Critical Wound
79-93: Fatal Wound
94+: Death

Damage is not cumulative. A 10 point Minor Wound and a 55 point Serious Wound do not (with our example) add up to a 65 point Critical Wound. They remain separate wounds and are tracked separately. Though the effects are additive.

In addition, wounds can bleed. Blood loss does make the overall condition worse.

The effects of wounds are blood loss, impairment, and shock. Shock itself can lead to impairment, loss of consciousness, and even death. The last even if the wound itself is not otherwise fatal.

Shock comes in three forms. There is mild, severe, and fatal. Most of the time a Fortitude Save against a DC equal to the damage done by the weapon inficting the wound will work. Except when the wound is a fatal one. Then there is no save, and the subject goes into fatal shock.

Cure spells will either cure (that is, heal) the wound they're named for, or reduce the severity of a wound one or more steps. As follows...

Cure Minor Wounds: Cures minor wounds, or reduces the severity of a wound by one step.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures light wounds, or reduces the severity of a wound by two steps.
Cure Medium Wounds: Cures medium wounds, or reduces the severity of a wound by three steps.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures serious wounds, or reduces the severity of a wound by four steps.
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures critical wounds, or reduces the severity of a wound by five steps.
Heal: Heals all injuries[/list]

Note that Heal is the only healing magic that can affect more than one wound at a time. Only one Cure can be applied per day, and there must be at least 24 hours per application of a Cure

The sticking point right now is in assigning penalities and effects. Minor and light wounds would have effect in the aggregate. So much blood loss for so many injuries. Perhaps some impairment in function in the case of light wounds. It's with medium wounds and worse that the ability to function wound get really screwed up. Say severe bruising, damage to muscle tissue or the breaking of bone, that sort of thing. With shock playing its role. For added fun bruising, cuts, and holes would present problems of their own. As would burns of various sorts, toxins, and like bodily insults. Ideas are welcome.

BTW, this uses the damage ratings for weapons from Dangerous Journeys instead of d20, as well as the DJ strike location system. For instance, a broadsword can do as much as 4d6x4 in damage, plus strength bonus and a bonus for experience for fighting types.

Your thoughts?

Quote from: mythusmageI've put the following together for d20 type games (D&D etc.):

Multiply Con by 6, then divide by 5. In the case of remainders, divide those evenly at one point per category. So a PC with a Con of 13 would get 78 points (13x6) with 15 per category and 3 points left over. So the first three categories would have 16 points, and the final two 15.
Your thoughts?

Yar, that is too many steps by far, Mythus.   Seriously.  Given the numbers you are likely to wind up with in the end, why not just use straight con for the catagories?


Seriously. If you say something about realism, Ima smack you good. ;)

Quote from: SpikeYar, that is too many steps by far, Mythus.   Seriously.  Given the numbers you are likely to wind up with in the end, why not just use straight con for the catagories?


Seriously. If you say something about realism, Ima smack you good. ;)

Because my way gives you more hit points. :)

Besides, DJ weapon damage is geared for characters with hit points that come in at about 6 times d20 Con, and I don't feel like adjusting DJ weapon damage when 6 times Con is easier to handle.

Quote from: mythusmageBecause my way gives you more hit points. :)

Besides, DJ weapon damage is geared for characters with hit points that come in at about 6 times d20 Con, and I don't feel like adjusting DJ weapon damage when 6 times Con is easier to handle.

Again... too many steps.  If you think straight con is too low, add a point or two, since that's what you end up with anyway.

What is easier?

(6X)/5

or X+2?


For the values you are talking about, X+2 is going to give reasonably similar results as the mean, and the 'extra realism' or whathave you is a poor tradeoff for the 'anti-math' crowd. Or even the 'sorta math is not my strong suit' crowd. Or the cheating motherfucker, who writes down 18, when his base Con is 12 and swears he did it right, thinking you ain't checking.

I'm just saying.  Complexity for it's own sake accomplishes only complexity.

Quote from: SpikeAgain... too many steps.  If you think straight con is too low, add a point or two, since that's what you end up with anyway.

What is easier?

(6X)/5

or X+2?


For the values you are talking about, X+2 is going to give reasonably similar results as the mean, and the 'extra realism' or whathave you is a poor tradeoff for the 'anti-math' crowd. Or even the 'sorta math is not my strong suit' crowd. Or the cheating motherfucker, who writes down 18, when his base Con is 12 and swears he did it right, thinking you ain't checking.

I'm just saying.  Complexity for it's own sake accomplishes only complexity.

18x6/5=21.5 Or 21 with 3 remaining. Your x+2 doesn't work. Besides which, realism has nothing to do with it. DJ damage ratings govern it, since I'm using DJ damage ratings instead of D&D. As for the anti-math crowd, maybe I don't want the anti-math crowd playing the damn game. Especially those so math phobic simple multiplication and division makes them poop their shorts. I'm not out to please everybody, and anybody who says I have to can kiss my grits.

Quote from: mythusmage18x6/5=21.5 Or 21 with 3 remaining. Your x+2 doesn't work. Besides which, realism has nothing to do with it. DJ damage ratings govern it, since I'm using DJ damage ratings instead of D&D. As for the anti-math crowd, maybe I don't want the anti-math crowd playing the damn game. Especially those so math phobic simple multiplication and division makes them poop their shorts. I'm not out to please everybody, and anybody who says I have to can kiss my grits.

I am well aware that at the top end, that is 18, the poor bastard is slighted.  The comment wasn't necessarily regarding the math challenged so much as the fact that extra steps for essentially no REAL purpose slows game play. Now, while character creation is hardly going to occur several times a game, the fact of the matter is that each unnecessary step is cumulative.

Its not multiplication or division I object to, it's multiplictation and division stacked side by side to reach a number very nearly identical to what x+2 would provide across most of your range.   Your comments about DJ ranges is pointless to the topic at hand.   I am talking about the needless complexity of your system and you are talking about a game you aren't apparently even playing... just using for inspiration.

Spike,

When you can start adressing what I proposed, instead of kvetching about your perceptions, then I shall consider what you have to say. But somebody besides you will have to inform me, because I don't have the time to deal with your anxieties. Plonk.

Plonk? Does this mean I'm ignored? Oh, goody!

Anxiety? Yes, I'm terribly anxious.  This might explain why DJ is such a marginalized game, as few people really want to go through such a convoluted mess.   I'm sure I've got an ulcer now. Woe is me... woe and woe, all is woe.

:rolleyes:

OK.  That was kind of a sidetrack.

For reference purposes, I agree with both Spike and Mythusmage.  I agree with Spike in that the more math you have in things, the more it muddies up the waters.  I'm actually very nervous about my damage system because it requires players to divide numbers on the fly, which is typically the mathematical operation which everyone is slowest with.  But generally (against mooks) the operation will be simple comparison: "Is the damage inflicted greater than the wound threshold?"  If the answer is yes, then the matter is more or less settled in most cases.  You always want to try and minimize calculations during play.  On the other hand, pre-calculated values can have more complex formulas and not impact play.  I wouldn't do like the old SPI game Universe and have stats which involve cube roots of fractions, but a fairly simple multiplication and division operation isn't too bad.  The key is to keep the calculation out of actual play time.  Make sure it's pre-recorded.

And that is a good segue to my next point.  I want attack rolls to affect damage.  There are three methods I've thought of to handle this:

Simple Multiplier = Divide the total attack roll by 10 (round down) to determine the multiplier for damage.  In practice this will merely mean looking at the tens digit, and multiplying the damage by that amount.  It's very simple, but it doesn't take defense into account.  The defense total could have been high enough that even a 37 barely struck, yet the damage would still be x3.

Calculated Multiplier = Subtract the defense total from the attack total.  Divide by 10 (round down) and add 1.  The result is the damage multiplier.  This would be more plausible in terms of simulation, but involves double digit subtraction, simple division, and a tacked on additive operation which just sort of dangles there.  In terms of complexity, I think it's more than should be asked for with each successful attack roll.

Calculated Additive = Subtract the defense total from the attack total.  Divide by 5 (round down).  The result is the number of bonus damage points inflicted.  I'm leaning towards this one at the moment.  It still has the troublesome double digit subtraction, but I have an unexplainable feeling that counting 5 point blocks that the attack succeeded by is easier than the Calculated Multiplier method.

Any other ideas?