Quote from: GRIMNo, millions of people are eating McDonalds without necessarily knowing there's a nice cheap friendly Italian place just around the corner.

That could be. Finally we're getting to the actual power of marketing/advertising: informing folks about alternatives they might like.

Here's some more reality: Millions of people don't care about the Italian resturant. All the advertising in the world won't change that. Because out of the folks eating at McDonalds, a large section won't like Italian food. Or sit down resturants. Or tipping. Or trying to get their kids to behave. Or waiting to be seated. Or a hundred thousand other little things.

While people might not know that our particular Italian resturant exists, they do know that there are alternatives to McDonalds. And they still choose McDonalds.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiWhile people might not know that our particular Italian resturant exists, they do know that there are alternatives to McDonalds. And they still choose McDonalds.

Metaphores always break down if you take them too far, but a substantial number of people in the real case wouldn't know about the alternatives at all.

Quote from: GRIMMetaphores always break down if you take them too far, but a substantial number of people in the real case wouldn't know about the alternatives at all.

Which real case, D&D or McDonalds? I guess it really doesn't matter because, again, you're just flat out wrong.

Seanchai

"D&D Is like Mcdonalds!" (or alternately "Britney spears" or whatever else seems uncool at the moment) is the most tired fucking argument. I've heard it since 2001.


"Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's good". Sure. Whatever.

But the truth is, things that are awesome, that are well loved, that serve the fans-- those things become popular.. and then they stay popular. For years.. maybe decades.

Trying to deny that fucking fact is a sign of deep, pervasive, intellectual dishonesty. The truth is obvious to anyone who even glances at reality.

It takes a seriously lame person to compare the chart to the coastline, and when they don't match up, somehow declares the coastline to be wrong rather than the chart.

Here's a much more accurate metaphor: You want to know what D&D is like? D&D is like rock and roll. It's the People's fucking Choice. It's large enough to encompass everything from Rockabilly to Pop-Rock, Punk to Metal and everything in between.

 Now, sure, you may like polka music, or showtunes, or pan flute solos, or whatever the fuck else you like. Thats just fine. You may even feel perplexed and confused why the rock fans just aren't interested in your peruvian fucking flute music or whatever the hell else. Thats ok too. And really, I personally have nothing against Zamfir, but I think his opinions on how to throw down a middle-eight or bust out a screaming guitar solo are worthless.

Thats the metaphor we shall henceforth be using. We rock and you blow.  Fuck this Mcdonalds crap, and fuck any loser that dares invoke it. It was tired false bullshit 6 years ago.  






....


...man, I enjoyed that!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw...man, I enjoyed that!

So did I.  It was a hell of a rant!

:win:

Quote from: SeanchaiThat could be. Finally we're getting to the actual power of marketing/advertising: informing folks about alternatives they might like.

Here's some more reality: Millions of people don't care about the Italian resturant. All the advertising in the world won't change that. Because out of the folks eating at McDonalds, a large section won't like Italian food. Or sit down resturants. Or tipping. Or trying to get their kids to behave. Or waiting to be seated. Or a hundred thousand other little things.

While people might not know that our particular Italian resturant exists, they do know that there are alternatives to McDonalds. And they still choose McDonalds.

Seanchai

I live on the West Coast.

Over here, there's a killer burrito joint like every 5 fucking blocks, and yet, people still go to Taco Bell.  

I personally can't stand Taco Bell, and am always baffled that people will go down the street from the killer burrito place, and pay the same price for Taco Bell.

Thing is though, when asked, most poeple will tell you they just don't expect the same thing as those other places when the go to Taco Bell.  Taco Bell isn't Mexican, it's just it's own thing which bares a vague resemblance to Mexican, and they appreciate it on it's own merits.

To be honest, I think they've taken the more admirable and open-minded position.

Quote from: J ArcaneI live on the West Coast.

Over here, there's a killer burrito joint like every 5 fucking blocks, and yet, people still go to Taco Bell.  

I personally can't stand Taco Bell, and am always baffled that people will go down the street from the killer burrito place, and pay the same price for Taco Bell.

Thing is though, when asked, most poeple will tell you they just don't expect the same thing as those other places when the go to Taco Bell.  Taco Bell isn't Mexican, it's just it's own thing which bares a vague resemblance to Mexican, and they appreciate it on it's own merits.

To be honest, I think they've taken the more admirable and open-minded position.

Bingo.  I live not ten miles from the border, and this area is rife with absolutely the best, cheap mexican food you could ever want.

Yet there's still two Taco Bells and two Del Tacos in town.  And I eat occasionally at both.

Not because they have superior mexican food, but because they have Taco Bell and Del Taco food.

Quote from: SeanchaiWhich real case, D&D or McDonalds? I guess it really doesn't matter because, again, you're just flat out wrong.

Stop thinking I'm talking in absolutes and re-read what I actually wrote.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHere's a much more accurate metaphor: You want to know what D&D is like? D&D is like rock and roll. It's the People's fucking Choice. It's large enough to encompass everything from Rockabilly to Pop-Rock, Punk to Metal and everything in between.

Pop, not rock (but rock used to be pop, you get what I mean).
Yes, it is the People's choice, they grey mediocrity you get from populism.
It doesn't encompass everything, that would be roleplaying as a whole.

d20 and D&D aren't mediocre. Only game groups are mediocre. People matter, bitch!
Order of importance in having an interesting and fun session:

• People
• Snacks
• Setting
• System

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckAh, good to know. Some of the older Square games did have classes I remembered. DW 8, the one I remember clearly, had three or four ability trees for each character. So they were more or less unique, which is the same as a class, since you had a limited range of choices that fit the archetype assigned to each character.

Final Fantasy V, and Final Fantasy Tactics are most loved because of their robust class systems.

One of the only things I liked about the final Fantasy XI online game was the way they handled multiclassing.  hell, offering it at all is a step ahead of most MMOs, which outright don't allow it.

Quote from: JimBobOzOrder of importance in having an interesting and fun session:

• People
• Snacks
• Setting
• System

My name is Zachary, and I approve this message.

Its obvious that classes and levels are good design; the video game industry uses them for a reason. They allow you to make clear characters that fit archetypes, if they're WELL done on top of that they allow you to individualize tons as well.

People who dislike these things, well, they're either people who just hate D&D because they hate its success; or they hate levels and classes because they'd rather min-max and be munchkins. Yes, those are pretty much the only possible reasons when you come down to it.
(note: those aren't the only reasons to LIKE point-buy systems, but they are the only reasons to HATE class/level systems; sorry)

As for D20's success, I'm glad that in this thread at least, the other side is mostly admitting that it IS successful. BTW; those who claim "no D20 game other than D&D have made the top 5" are probably wrong, both Star Wars D20 and D20 modern have in different times been in the top 5. I wouldn't be surprised if M&M were as well.

D20 is successful because its a great system, its adaptable, it has great network externalities, and its well promoted. IN THAT ORDER.

RPGPundit

Naw, I hate D&D because it's a stain on the reputation and perception of the industry as a whole.  FATAL and RaWaHo aren't as successful but I don't hate them any less for it.

I hate classes and levels in 3e specifically because they are completely undermined in their function by the skill system and feats.  D&D's sacred cows all relate to being able to put a couple hundred figures on the table and be done in time for dinner and cease to make sense in the muddled mess WotC has made of it in their rabid quest to fuck the rest of the industry over.

D&D's network externalities do as much harm to the industry as they do good.  They certainly keep more people out than they bring in.

Damnit I'm starting to love this place.  I'd've been banned for three weeks for saying that at TOP.

Quote from: David JohansenNaw, I hate D&D because it's a stain on the reputation and perception of the industry as a whole.  FATAL and RaWaHo aren't as successful but I don't hate them any less for it.

I hate classes and levels in 3e specifically because they are completely undermined in their function by the skill system and feats.  D&D's sacred cows all relate to being able to put a couple hundred figures on the table and be done in time for dinner and cease to make sense in the muddled mess WotC has made of it in their rabid quest to fuck the rest of the industry over.

D&D's network externalities do as much harm to the industry as they do good.  They certainly keep more people out than they bring in.

Damnit I'm starting to love this place.  I'd've been banned for three weeks for saying that at TOP.

Considering that D&D is more than 90% of the industry, what's good for them IS good for the industry.

By that measure, d20 Modern has been a huge win for the industry overall.

Given that D&D *started* the industry, wishing they'd go away in favor of lousy games like FATAL is just dumb.