^^^ Doh! Yes, I meant Hero.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckIn other words, for all "videogamey" is used as an insult by some gamers  videogame RPGs seem to have learned the lesson of the grand-dad of their genre BETTER than the format where that genre originated.

My view is that they've completely failed to pick up on 30+ years of RPG innovation and they're the worse for it.

You don't notice it so much in single player CRPGs, but Class/Level fucks multiplayer in the arse, especially when there is player conflict. Yet they stick with it regardless.

Quote from: GRIMMy view is that they've completely failed to pick up on 30+ years of RPG innovation and they're the worse for it.

You don't notice it so much in single player CRPGs, but Class/Level fucks multiplayer in the arse, especially when there is player conflict. Yet they stick with it regardless.

I agree. I just quit playing WoW (amongst other reasons) because grinding for levels bores me to tears. And quests: I hate the motherfucking quests.

I think a reason that has been touched on, but not explored, is that despite the doom-mongers that crop up everywhere saying the gaming industry is dying and that we need 'new blood', there are more young people playing tabletop RPGs than people realise.

Games that give character growth structure and give out goodies in the form of class abilities, feats, skill growth, items (or whatever name they go by in the game concerned) etc in bite sized chunks appeal to people. d&ds success lies a bit on the game entry side, but it's also on the 'cool' side. Starting gamers, young gamers, and many 'traditional gamers' aren't that interested in being limited to playing one type of character forever. Nor are they that interested in exploring their id, motives, place in the game world, angst, 'why am i here' thoughts or even playing in a world that they don't relate to, to some degree. There's a reason that the more strange game worlds aren't very popular, it's about relating to it. Now, more mature or experienced gamers can do that fine if they so choose, which leads me to my conclusion that there are more young gamers and traditional gamers out there than any other type.

This is of course backed up by d20 (d&d) having always been the top dog and the reason that most high selling systems that aren't d20 follow the design goals of that game:

Easy Entry level

A relatable setting with relatable character types for a generic fantasy setting

Choice that isn't too restricted or too diverse (too much choice is no choice, although, i guess it's getting that way with feats & PClasses now)

Character improvement that is regular and delivers mechanical advantages as the character gains power, but with only ocassional book-keeping

A vast amount of critters to defeat. It seems that an awful lot of gamers enjoy the monsters. And why not? It's a staple of fantasy literature. d&d has always delivered them in spades

Apart from the rules to generate and advance characters, players do not need to read countless material on world setting, special conditions of play (such as chivalry or passions in Pendragon for example) etc. I guess this figures into easy entry level.

Treasure, treasure, treasure. You can never underestimate the treasure. Who doesn't want excaliber, baba yaga's hut, a conjuror's hat? Again, genre convention as well as bloody cool.

No artificial aids to 'victory', other than your characters skills, equipment and the players ingenuity. I think that many gamers want success, but they want to earn it. Hero points, actions points, narrative points etc and other 'inovations' aren't present.

Tactical combat. Very tactical. To get the best out of it, minis are useful (but not mandatory). Toy soldiers man, toy soldiers. Old as time and just as popular with all ages (as well as the younger demographic of course).


I think that's all for now.

Quote from: ImperatorI agree. I just quit playing WoW (amongst other reasons) because grinding for levels bores me to tears. And quests: I hate the motherfucking quests.

Anyone who hates WoW quests needs to go and find the old Ultima parody Zerg.  I hearby command the go forth and slay one kobold!

Quote from: David JohansenAnyone who hates WoW quests needs to go and find the old Ultima parody Zerg.  I hearby command the go forth and slay one kobold!

Linky?

Quote from: GRIMMy view is that they've completely failed to pick up on 30+ years of RPG innovation and they're the worse for it.

You don't notice it so much in single player CRPGs, but Class/Level fucks multiplayer in the arse, especially when there is player conflict. Yet they stick with it regardless.

They stick with it because its popular with the largest segment of their market.

And since these games have budgets the size of movies, CRPG designers have to go for the largest part of the market.

They have to play to the groundlings. They can't afford to be artists going for the "fit though few".

Given that those games that you say are "suffering" are games with MILLIONS of players, Im sure they're suffering all the way to the bank.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckGiven that those games that you say are "suffering" are games with MILLIONS of players, Im sure they're suffering all the way to the bank.

Again, popularity does not mean something is done well.

Yes, GRIM, classes and levels are inherently bad, so they stop people having fun.

Yes, GRIM, millions of people are playing a game they don't really enjoy.

So either they are all doing something they don't enjoy, for reasons no-one has adduced, or else... they think they're having fun, but really they're not! ZOMFG they must be literally brain-damaged!1111!

Quote from: JimBobOzYes, GRIM, classes and levels are inherently bad, so they stop people having fun.

Yes, GRIM, millions of people are playing a game they don't really enjoy.

So either they are all doing something they don't enjoy, for reasons no-one has adduced, or else... they think they're having fun, but really they're not! ZOMFG they must be literally brain-damaged!1111!

I think GRIM's label isn't brain-damaged, but rather "consumer whore."

D&D as the RPG equivalent of McDonald's is a compelling argument, but ultimately flawed.

Quote from: GRIMAgain, popularity does not mean something is done well.

Not exactly, but close. It means that it meets people's needs. If people are continuing to purchase D&D, it must be doing something right.

Seanchai

Quote from: GRIMAgain, popularity does not mean something is done well.

Nope it doesn't.

But a rational person might be willing to admit that if millions of people like something, it might actually have some value, even if it's not their cup of tea.

Quote from: JimBobOzYes, GRIM, classes and levels are inherently bad, so they stop people having fun.

Yes, GRIM, millions of people are playing a game they don't really enjoy.

So either they are all doing something they don't enjoy, for reasons no-one has adduced, or else... they think they're having fun, but really they're not! ZOMFG they must be literally brain-damaged!1111!

No, millions of people are eating McDonalds without necessarily knowing there's a nice cheap friendly Italian place just around the corner.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckNope it doesn't.

But a rational person might be willing to admit that if millions of people like something, it might actually have some value, even if it's not their cup of tea.

'Some value' is fairly wide, so I'll accept that.

I think it's a multitude of factors as why D&D 3 is doing well.

Name: The D&D name was the first, and due to LOTS of negative publicity  (For being Satanic and what not) has become synonomous with the term RPG. Parents still call PS2's and Xboxs Nintendo's. Just like gamers call Exalted "It's like D&D but different".
 D&D means RPG in American culture. Someone who has never played an RPG knows D&D is an RPG. Just like videogames and Nintendo, Pro-Wrestling and Hulk Hogan.

Better than 2nd Edition: After many fans left D&D in droves, when there was rumor of a new and improved D&D coming out, they all went back. D&D and AD&D are good, fun games. D&D 3rd is also a good fun game.

Vanilla: For lack of a better term, D&D is not meant for the advanced palette. Because it's name is synonomous with the term RPG (as mentioned above) it is the standard by which all other games are based.

Creatively Complete: Everything in D&D is well defined, evrything has a system that has been play balanced and tested. It requires no creative input from it's DM's, instead providing systems for creating successful dungeons, cities and even worlds.
 This is the only System (which has been in place since before D20) piece I think that has contributed to it's success. It lowers the barrier of entry by making even the worst DM's able to run a balanced and successful D&D game.

Hasbro/WotC: The current mega success of D&D comes from Hasbro. Their marketing team, combined with their distribution channels took the previous selling points and taken D&D to loftier heights than it has ever been before. Partly trough branding and extending the D&D IP to collectible miniatures, posters, kids books, chess sets and mainstream movies.


Luck: I don't think Wizards or Hasbro could have planned for D&D to be as big as it is now. It hit at just the right time when the maket was ready for it and gaming grognards hadn't completely written it off as "history". The impact D&D 3 has had on our hobby couldn't have been predicted by anyone.

As far as the System debate goes I offer my 2 cents again...

The fact that D&D3 is a fun game and has a decent system kept D&D 3rd edition from being a failure. If the game's system had been horrible twice in a row, I don't think Gamers would have forgiven the brand and would have moved on to other games permanently.