Quote from: RPGPunditYou more than anyone should be familiar with the power of an idea. We all saw one man's ideas (Rein·Hagen's, about Story-based gaming) completely transform the hobby (and industry) at one point, essentially "forcing" everyone who didn't like or agree with his ideas about how to game out of the hobby.

I understand that Hagen's opportunity came with the weakness of D&D but why his story-based gaming approach transformed the hobby instead of other things.I am curious why this dominated in the first place.

My point of view is that when I first read Vampire I thought it had a lot of imagination behind it but as the singular focus of a RPG game that it was too angst ridden, dark and despressing. I felt it would been a better game supplement than an RPG.

But then BAM! an entire new crowd was role-playing Vampire then werewolf and so on. The core of which seemed to be goths.

Rob Conley

I still don't see how it 'forced' anybody out of the hobby.   I remember when the game came out, there were still plenty of folks playing D&D and all sorts of other games.  I remember just seeing a whole bunch of new folks coming into the hobby, some who stayed and some who didn't.

Anyways I think the reason it had such a big impact was that it was something different.  Even the supplements were different.  Much more than just 'books of new rules' which were the common norm of the time.  Basically it broke the monotony that had sat in.

Even the setting of the game was different.  More based on the characters than the setting (well at least in first edition).  It took a step back to simpler mechanics and took a step forward in the ideas of basing the story as more important.

Not to mention the free advertising in White Wolf magazine.  That and an absolutely glowing review in Dragon magazine (the reason I bought the game).

My two cents from my views of the local scene.  Your milage may vary.

It also happened to be that Hagen has very different ideas about RPGs than the rest of the WW management. If you read what he wrote in the early V:tM days you are suddenly clear on what he wanted to do with the WoD: provide a toolkit that allowed beginning gamers to roll some dice for things they didn't want (or weren't experienced enough for) to handle in a freeform/diceless way.

Now what happened was that later books introduced more and more rules instead of providing players with inspirations how to ditch the existing ones. It was basically the same transition that also happened from "BESM 1st Edition" (a real genius of work) to "Tri-Stat dX" (a clunky, unplayable mess).

Quote from: alexandroIt also happened to be that Hagen has very different ideas about RPGs than the rest of the WW management. If you read what he wrote in the early V:tM days you are suddenly clear on what he wanted to do with the WoD: provide a toolkit that allowed beginning gamers to roll some dice for things they didn't want (or weren't experienced enough for) to handle in a freeform/diceless way.

Now what happened was that later books introduced more and more rules instead of providing players with inspirations how to ditch the existing ones. It was basically the same transition that also happened from "BESM 1st Edition" (a real genius of work) to "Tri-Stat dX" (a clunky, unplayable mess).

That is a very astute observation...and goes a long way toward explaining the disconnect between the rules and the text.  

Thanks for posting that, I'm going to go and read my Vampire 1e stuff now, but I think you just made that click for me.

Quote from: alexandroIt also happened to be that Hagen has very different ideas about RPGs than the rest of the WW management. If you read what he wrote in the early V:tM days you are suddenly clear on what he wanted to do with the WoD: provide a toolkit that allowed beginning gamers to roll some dice for things they didn't want (or weren't experienced enough for) to handle in a freeform/diceless way.

Now what happened was that later books introduced more and more rules instead of providing players with inspirations how to ditch the existing ones. It was basically the same transition that also happened from "BESM 1st Edition" (a real genius of work) to "Tri-Stat dX" (a clunky, unplayable mess).

Perhaps the ultimate expression of this tendency to complexify is  Exalted. It's an ultra detailed, rules-heavy game built on a foundation that was designed with exactly the opposite playstyle in mind. The net result is a mechanical mess riddled with patches, revisions and bizarre fixes. They really should have started from the ground up when designing 2E, scrapping the dice pool system altogether.

No wonder so many people complain about it.

I have to agree with the general consensus that what the game and system started out as is not the direction the company took it.  If I run a game using the storyteller system (actually I am right now) I use the rules out of the first edition vampire book.  A few tweaks for what I am running and that's all it takes.  

Of course I tend to have a heavy roleplay group.  We go diceless on a lot of situations and I'll let a lot of things automatically succeed if the characters have a good rating in the skill already.

But I've looked through Exalted...... and promptly put it back on the shelf.

Quote from: peteramthorI have to agree with the general consensus that what the game and system started out as is not the direction the company took it.  If I run a game using the storyteller system (actually I am right now) I use the rules out of the first edition vampire book.  A few tweaks for what I am running and that's all it takes.  

Of course I tend to have a heavy roleplay group.  We go diceless on a lot of situations and I'll let a lot of things automatically succeed if the characters have a good rating in the skill already.

But I've looked through Exalted...... and promptly put it back on the shelf.

Well...

I went from playing D&D to playing TOON to playing Vampire (and then Hunter: the Reckoning).

Why did I go with Vampire?

1 Book, inculded an awesome setting, a complete ruleset, had some awesome artwork and wasn't lame ass D&D fantasy (Fantasy has made a comeback since then).

It was a game that was super easy to play and GM, even if the rules were wonky and unfair.

I think people missed what Story focus was about. It meant it wasn't about Campaigns (i.e. treks across an entire fantasy world locating new and exciting monsters), it was about Stories/Chronicles (i.e. character interaction, antagonists and locations).

Quote from: DrewThey really should have started from the ground up when designing 2E [Exalted], scrapping the dice pool system altogether.

:eek: But then it would lack brand identity!

More seriously, mechanics have never been WW's strong suit, so I'm not confident that starting off with a clean slate would have been an improvement.

!i!

One of the big developers for White Wolf came out and said that previously, vaugely written and occasionally contradictory rules were what their players (during the old WoD) expected, and that the mechanical fuzziness was a feature, not a bug.

Exalted comes along, and suddenly people are complaining about what had always been one of the companies strengths, so they try to regear the line towards that end...but not everyone is onboard/aware of this, so things are still all over the place.

Quote from: Ian Absentia:eek: But then it would lack brand identity!

Indeed. I genuinely believe this was the reason WW opted to retain the system. They've only recently admitted that they had no idea just how much overflow would result from trying to pour a rules-heavy concept into such a shallow vessel.

QuoteMore seriously, mechanics have never been WW's strong suit, so I'm not confident that starting off with a clean slate would have been an improvement.

They should've subcontracted to bona fide system designer, say Monte Cook.

Hang on...

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaMore seriously, mechanics have never been WW's strong suit, so I'm not confident that starting off with a clean slate would have been an improvement.

Well, they managed to make quite balanced and simple system with nWoD, while still retaining the basic concept of "add-the-dots".

Then again they did this by looking really hard at how other systems (mostly 3e) where designed and what of that would make sense for this game.