Quote from: LostSoulDo you want me to post the text that covers this again?

Go right ahead. I guess I got distraced watching this Paka dude flail around like mad to avoid answering a simply yes/no question.

What's wrong, dude? Do you get mystically banished back to the Forge Mytzlplk-style if just say "yes" or "no" instead of launch into some blather about "conflicts?" It's not about Pundit, it's about "yes" or "no."

EDIT:

QuoteThe -no- you are looking for is here.

Well, FINALLY!

So it's really, definitively "Say yes or roll the dice or say no."

Thanks for admitting it at last.

Quote from: YamoGo right ahead. I guess I got distraced watching this Paka dude flail around like mad to avoid answering a simply yes/no question.

What's wrong, dude? Do you get mystically banished back to the Forge Mytzlplk-style if just say "yes" or "no" instead of launch into some blather about "conflicts?" It's not about Pundit, it's about "yes" or "no."

EDIT:



Well, FINALLY!

So it's really, definitively "Say yes or roll the dice or say no."

Thanks for admitting it at last.

*sniffs the bait*

Nah.

Quote from: Paka*sniffs the bait*

Nah.

That's not the bait you smell, it's the victory laurels on the brows of the opposing team.

Quote from: YamoThat's not the bait you smell, it's the victory laurels on the brows of the opposing team.

I think we were playing a different game there, chief.

Enjoy.

Have a good weekend.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenDepends who you talk to.

I mostly lurk there, but I really love Amber.

Ben Lehman wrote Polaris, the game that won the "most innovative" indie RPG last time out, and in his list of games that influenced his, right in the book, he includes the note that "this game totally blew my mind".

So, that's two fans.  

Can you point me to two people there getting any hate on for the game, or did you just make up that idea based on the lack of regular discussion about it?

Perhaps more importantly, Ben Lehman who wrote Polaris plays in Erick's weekly group (which does Amber... sorta), and Erick plays in Ben's weekly group (which does assorted indie games.)

But, no.  RPGs will always be home to those who pin their egos on things other than their own happiness (such as specific games or styles of play) and thus this is impossible.  There must be war.

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: YamoSo how do I apply "say yes or roll the dice" to a player asking "Can I locate a 10MT hydrogen bomb in the Orc King's treasure vault?" :rolleyes:

I don't know why you roll your electronic eyes. That shit's been covered. Quick answer: you don't? You say, "That's ridiculous, dude," (along with everybody else at the table)?

Quote from: droogI don't know why you roll your electronic eyes. That shit's been covered. Quick answer: you don't? You say, "That's ridiculous, dude," (along with everybody else at the table)?

That's a no.

Yes.

There's actually a good rule hiding in there for non-narrativist games...

If you want the players to find the secret map  when they search the room (or it would make sense, or is inevitable) -- don't make them roll the dice, just say "yes" when they say they're searching.  Yes, you find a map.  Why?  Because it keeps the game moving, and if it's not really an important roll, or it makes sense that they'd find it (5 people searching an empty 10'x10' room for a few minutes should find just about ANYTHING in there).

I do like the "Take 10 or Take 20" rule in 3rd Ed. D&D for that.

But you could also say "No" instead of rolling the dice.  If your player wants to try jumping the 80' canyon... well, there's no need to roll for that either... just keep the game moving as you describe their graceful dive into the abyss.

Quote from: Ben LehmanPerhaps more importantly, Ben Lehman who wrote Polaris plays in Erick's weekly group (which does Amber... sorta), and Erick plays in Ben's weekly group (which does assorted indie games.)

But, no.  RPGs will always be home to those who pin their egos on things other than their own happiness (such as specific games or styles of play) and thus this is impossible.  There must be war.

yrs--
--Ben

Do you use this line on the Forge too? "Some of my best friends are dysfunctional game designers"?

I mean, really, the fact that you game with Erick means that you are either:
1. Desperate for a game in China, where I imagine that gaming groups are rather few and far between.

2. An OK guy who happens to be into theory crap. Those do exist. Levi's another. And you've always seemed relatively reasonable when I've spoken to you.

That doesn't change the fact that the Forge ideologically opposes mainstream gaming, that the Swine in general tend to piss on Amber at every opportunity on RPG.net and elsewhere, and make utterly absurd and outlandish claims about the games mechanics ("Its all GM fiat.. its just comparing the ranks", "first rank always wins", "its broken/unplayable", etc etc ad nauseum) that a gang of them tried to pressure Guardians of Order into remaking Amber as a variant of the Swine-game Borgstromosity Nobilis.  I mean, fucks' sake, that's the RPG hobby equivalent of denying its right to fucking exist.
I don't give a fuck that a Palestinian is buddies with Ehud Olmert, it doesn't change the fact that various arab states have claimed that Israel must be driven into the sea.

The real question now would be whether you recognize that in fact Amber is by far a more innovative game than anything the Forge has come up with thus far (and did so more than a decade before the Forge even existed!), all without having to stop being a mainstream roleplaying game, and while doing so without as much as a whiff of pretentiousness?

RPGPundit

Quote from: droogYou've answered your own question. 'Say yes or roll the dice' is a narrativist tool. If what you're doing is simulating a world, the principle may not apply. On the other hand, it might, but caveat emptor. I said this already.

ALL roleplaying is emulation. Trying to turn Roleplaying into some kind of collaborative storytelling exercise is a fruitless endeavour.
So is trying to classify Roleplaying into the categories of "narrativist" or "simulationist", which are faulty flawed terms invented from incorrect premises by someone who has publically confessed to being brain damaged.

Trying to push it on the rest of us, or claim that our games are dysfunctional because we play RPGs the way we do, or that we're ignorant for not seeing the genius of My Life With Master, is fucking insulting.

RPGPundit

So, just to review, we are all clear now that "Say yes or roll the dice" is either a monumentally fucking stupid concept; or that it actually means "say yes or no or roll the dice", in which case its utterly meaningless and thus a monumentally fucking useless concept?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditALL roleplaying is emulation. Trying to turn Roleplaying into some kind of collaborative storytelling exercise is a fruitless endeavour.
So is trying to classify Roleplaying into the categories of "narrativist" or "simulationist", which are faulty flawed terms invented from incorrect premises by someone who has publically confessed to being brain damaged.

Trying to push it on the rest of us, or claim that our games are dysfunctional because we play RPGs the way we do, or that we're ignorant for not seeing the genius of My Life With Master, is fucking insulting.

RPGPundit

Okay, now we're back to the beginning. Press Repeat.

Quote from: droogOkay, now we're back to the beginning. Press Repeat.

I agree.  I thought the exact same thing on the post prior to the one you quoted.

In any event, my original issues were answered.  

I do think the Landmarks have a bit of a flaw, and it's because they were created as a reaction to Forge theory.  I think #4, #9, and #10 are the Landmarks which are probably the most meaningful to discussion.

#3 has the slight connotation that a successful RPG with many followers can't be called "bad".  That certainly has implications for my tendency to gripe about Palladium mechanics.  But, I haven't been banned yet.  ::knock on wood::

QuoteI do think the Landmarks have a bit of a flaw, and it's because they were created as a reaction to Forge theory.

How so?  I'm not sure these would be the same 10 points I'd make -- but I didn't see any that I strongly disagreed with.  I don't think I saw any that I'd call "Flawed".  My only negative comment would be that they're very specific to a certain style of RPG -- and I think with a bit of rewording they could apply to all sorts of games.