Well, I'm not designing games or working in the so-called industry. And I've found several new groups without trying too hard, none of which seem to be playing D&D.

My old group is part of an extended tribe of perhaps two dozen players, all of whom have veritable contempt for D&D. I've got a much more balanced view because of my online activity, in point of fact.

Anyway, I was simply questioning the assertion that the 'heart' of roleplaying is 'simple, childish fun'. Sure, it can be. But not for everybody, any more than everybody likes simple, childish books.

Quote from: droogAnyway, I was simply questioning the assertion that the 'heart' of roleplaying is 'simple, childish fun'. Sure, it can be. But not for everybody, any more than everybody likes simple, childish books.

'Simple childish fun"  really is too broad and vague to be of any use.  

What's the simple childish fun of CoC or AFMBE?  Horror?

Twilight 2000 and similar ilk?  Some people want complexity - otherwise Hero would have disappeared a decade ago.  Some people want grim challenges.

I really doubt that childish fun could be defined in such a way that it can be found in all games yet also be a useful concept.

Quote:
                                      Originally Posted by Nicephorus
             A problem occurs when people disagree about even the core is. Not everyone wants the same thing from supers; some want the angst, some want godlike powers, some like crime fighting, some want golden age thoughtless pounding on bad guys.

Quote from: droogThat's why it's best to have lots of different games.

Yes.  But I wasn't clear.  I was thinking of the problem that occurs when people within a group have differing ideas on what the core is without initially realizing it.  Ever had one of those campaigns where everyone is trying to pull it in a different direction until it falls apart after a few sessions?

Quote from: droogWhat the fuck do I care about the 'supermajority'?

Oh yea, right. You're a big cool rebel because you play Sorcerer. I'd forgotten.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOh yea, right. You're a big cool rebel because you play Sorcerer. I'd forgotten.

Actually, I'm so cool it wouldn't matter what I played.

Quote from: Nicephorus

QuoteYes.  But I wasn't clear.  I was thinking of the problem that occurs when people within a group have differing ideas on what the core is without initially realizing it.  Ever had one of those campaigns where everyone is trying to pull it in a different direction until it falls apart after a few sessions?

More than a couple, comrade.

Quote from: droogWell, I'm not designing games or working in the so-called industry. And I've found several new groups without trying too hard, none of which seem to be playing D&D.

My old group is part of an extended tribe of perhaps two dozen players, all of whom have veritable contempt for D&D. I've got a much more balanced view because of my online activity, in point of fact.

Anyway, I was simply questioning the assertion that the 'heart' of roleplaying is 'simple, childish fun'. Sure, it can be. But not for everybody, any more than everybody likes simple, childish books.

You won't have that forever.  "Sooner or later" means that, inevitably, you'll be in a situation where none of this is true.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerYou won't have that forever.  "Sooner or later" means that, inevitably, you'll be in a situation where none of this is true.

It's going to be pretty hard for you to prove that without stalking me for the rest of my life, isn't it?

Man, I take off for a few days and my thread explodes!!!

Or only a little bit.  I seem to have swamped a few people with the size of my initial post on the topic.  Lemme see if I can pare it down a bit to make it clearer.

Right: The heart of the game, the 'simple childish fun' that I spoke of is not necessarily simple or childish per se.  It's that 'wow, I want to be doing that' factor from comics. Being an investigator in CoC is likely not to be 'fun'... but playing the character can be.  When you read Sherlock Holmes or watch one of the many movies, the 'child' in you likely wants to BE Holmes, or at least Holmsian, for that expirence.

*snipped not very short repeat of OP*

Cool Characters doing whatever COOL THINGS their literary counterparts can do is the heart, everything else goes on top of that, not 'instead of'.





As a side note: Must work on expressing myself clearly...

Quote from: droogIt's going to be pretty hard for you to prove that without stalking me for the rest of my life, isn't it?

No, I'll just wait for you to bitch about group problems.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerNo, I'll just wait for you to bitch about group problems.

Ahhh...so stalking online? That's all right, I don't mind having a friend.

Is this going to take up a lot of your time?

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerSooner or later you will lose your current group.  If you wish to maintain yourself as an active hobbyist, then you must create a new group.  To do that you will have to deal with the rest of the gamers out there.  Ignoring D&D means that you will cut yourself off of the vast majority of the tabletop gamers in the world, and that doesn't do anything to guarantee that you'll get the folks that you want at your table.  Knowing D&D and the audience that plays it goes a long way towards being able to effectively and efficiently achieve that goal, no matter what you think of D&D, as it is--and ever shall be--the standard against which all other RPGs--tabletop, console and online--are measured against.

I'm not denying any of this, but I thought I'd throw this random data point out there.

I started roleplaying with TSR's Basic Marvel Super Heroes set in '85-86 that I pestered my folks into buying for me from Toys R Us after seeing ads for it in my Spiderman comics. I had no idea what roleplaying was, and hadn't heard of D&D. I formed a group with some friends from school, and started playing and stumbled onto the broader hobby. But...

I've been a member of three or four games clubs over the years, and been a part of dozen of groups. And none of them showed any interest in playing D&D (Most people I have met tended to mainly play stuff like Traveller, CoC, Champions, Star Wars D6, WHFRP and so on for the first ten years and then various White Wolf stuff since the early 90's) until I joined a new group about 6 months ago. So that's twenty or so years, playing in dozens of different groups, without finding a group that wanted to play D&D. This is in the UK, if that makes any difference.

Weird, huh?

Quote from: warrenI'm not denying any of this, but I thought I'd throw this random data point out there.

I started roleplaying with TSR's Basic Marvel Super Heroes set in '85-86 that I pestered my folks into buying for me from Toys R Us after seeing ads for it in my Spiderman comics. I had no idea what roleplaying was, and hadn't heard of D&D. I formed a group with some friends from school, and started playing and stumbled onto the broader hobby. But...

I've been a member of three or four games clubs over the years, and been a part of dozen of groups. And none of them showed any interest in playing D&D (Most people I have met tended to mainly play stuff like Traveller, CoC, Champions, Star Wars D6, WHFRP and so on for the first ten years and then various White Wolf stuff since the early 90's) until I joined a new group about 6 months ago. So that's twenty or so years, playing in dozens of different groups, without finding a group that wanted to play D&D. This is in the UK, if that makes any difference.

Weird, huh?

Might vary by age and location. I find that of roleplayers 16-20 or so, most are familiar with DnD. A few with D20 Modern. Of course, that's all I've been familiar with up until recently, and I tought most of the people in my most recent group with a gutted version of D20, so...

And droog, could you quit with the stalking comments? I mean, if you're that desperate for attention, fine, but stalking just isn't as fun unless it ends in a pipe-bombing (mmmmm... shrapnel). Besides the fact that it contributes nothing to the conversation.

Quote from: NicephorusWhat's the simple childish fun of CoC or AFMBE?  Horror?

Twilight 2000 and similar ilk?

Laughing at being scared by the boogeyman and playing with fireworks when you're not supposed to, respectively.

Quote from: beejazzAnd droog, could you quit with the stalking comments? I mean, if you're that desperate for attention, fine, but stalking just isn't as fun unless it ends in a pipe-bombing (mmmmm... shrapnel). Besides the fact that it contributes nothing to the conversation.

Fair enough. I wasn't being very serious, you know. Bradford just amuses me with his network externalities.