Quote from: jhkimThough in the bigger picture, I don't think the ridiculously low price of the PHB is a good thing.  They can't be making much money off selling a hardbound 320-page full-color book at that price -- so it feel it's a bad sign for the business.  RPG books are already priced very low compared to other books of the same production value (like cookbooks or such), and they have a smaller market.  But that's another topic...

Well, its possible that they're selling the book at cost because its the introductory book, though considering the massive difference in production runs, they can probably put it at a $30 price point and still make profit.

My position, however, is that the most basic book for D&D should actually not be hardbound, not be full colour, and cost considerably less than $30; at least in its standard version.

RPGPundit

Quote from: StuartYeah, sarcasm works really well on the Internet. :rolleyes:

Well, that is what the roll-eyes smiley is for, in my book.
And on this site, you can actually still use it, unlike other places where apparently Sarcasm has been outlawed.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, its possible that they're selling the book at cost because its the introductory book, though considering the massive difference in production runs, they can probably put it at a $30 price point and still make profit.

My position, however, is that the most basic book for D&D should actually not be hardbound, not be full colour, and cost considerably less than $30; at least in its standard version.

RPGPundit

Don't forget the box, and dice, and Keep on the Borderlands.

Know what?
I nearly bought Shab Al-Hiri Roach.

Why didn´t I?
Because I learned, that the cool props for the NPCs/Ressources disguised as NPCs, weren´t part of the game, but were made by the demo team. And that the NPC collection is always the same. Thank you, I memorized the play mechanism, so no need to buy the book anymore.

The value is very low with those Thematic publications. You don´t get much, not even the stuff that´s supposed to be inside:
ready made towns, oodles of Themes to explore, NPC collections etc., Organizations or whathevu.

I´m not talking illustrations or glossy paper. I´m talking thematic gaming materiél. All you get is another bidding/pool mechanism and a different way of distributing narrative power.

They might play well and be the grandest thing on earth since water closets.
But they lack substance, big time.
At least for over €15 a piece.

Quote from: SettembriniThe value is very low with those Thematic publications. You don´t get much, not even the stuff that´s supposed to be inside:
ready made towns, oodles of Themes to explore, NPC collections etc., Organizations or whathevu.

I´m not talking illustrations or glossy paper. I´m talking thematic gaming materiél. All you get is another bidding/pool mechanism and a different way of distributing narrative power.

They might play well and be the grandest thing on earth since water closets.
But they lack substance, big time.
At least for over €15 a piece.

I'll certainly agree that some of the Forgista games are better value than others, even measuring in different ways. I've played the Roach, but I haven't studied it in depth. I do think it lacks a certain amount of substance (if I understand you correctly) compared to, say, DitV.

With DitV, what you get is the results of some very careful thinking about roleplaying games. You get the dice mechanic (Raises and Sees), which I personally find a lot of fun to roleplay off. Built into that is Giving, Escalation and Fallout, three very clever mechanics. But that's not all. You also get the Town Creation system, which, for producing consistent fun in games with minimum effort while allowing plenty of space for the GM's creativity, beats just about everything else I've ever seen. You get characters absolutely loaded to explode in play, with a cosmology that gives them any authority they can enforce. You get a full set of instructions on how to run this game, and it's loaded for fun.

DitV is a minimalist masterpiece. It distills roleplaying to it's essential heart and charges you US$22. It's a bargain. BUT not every Forgista game is the same, with the volume now coming out. Caveat emptor, I say.

Quote from: ScaleDon't forget the box, and dice, and Keep on the Borderlands.

FUCK YEAH!

RPGPundit

Quote from: droogYou also get the Town Creation system, which, for producing consistent fun in games with minimum effort while allowing plenty of space for the GM's creativity, beats just about everything else I've ever seen. You get characters absolutely loaded to explode in play, with a cosmology that gives them any authority they can enforce. You get a full set of instructions on how to run this game, and it's loaded for fun.

WHAT fucking "Town Creation System"??

You see, when I hear "town creation system"; I think "Random tables that let me create the size, population, interesting characters, fundamental conflicts, potential adventure seeds, useful stores, magic items, etc etc in a town".

What you get in DiTV is 3/10ths christian-sociology essay, and 7/10ths of "Pick a sin, invent an excuse, do it yourself and stop bothering me... I mean fuck, I'm the Game Designer! Actually having to stoop to the level of 'designing' something for my game would be a insult; how dare you even dream of asking such a thing!?"

I mean really, fuck: Ok, pick a town name, pick a sin, pick a person who did the sin, pick some other people affected by the sin.  THAT'S a "town creation system"?!

You poor stupid cunts, where the fuck have you been? How desperately do you want to fit in and belong that you will really bend down and lick Vince Baker's ass and tell him he's the next fucking Jack Kerouac for inventing that piece of shit?!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean really, fuck: Ok, pick a town name, pick a sin, pick a person who did the sin, pick some other people affected by the sin.  THAT'S a "town creation system"?!

There's quite a bit more structure to it than that.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou poor stupid cunts, where the fuck have you been? How desperately do you want to fit in and belong that you will really bend down and lick Vince Baker's ass and tell him he's the next fucking Jack Kerouac for inventing that piece of shit?!

Well, I've been playing the game and watching it reliably produce solid results with a wide variety of groups.  That's where I've been.

Some more sample towns, ready to play, would just add value.
That´s my point.

And other TGs don´t even have a guide/formula for setting up the conflict. How shallow DitV´s take might be, it´s more than most have.

The BW/BE is a totally different animal. Kudos to Luke for actually delivering stuff for my €.

Luke's a clever bastard.

Quote from: RPGPunditWHAT fucking "Town Creation System"??

You see, when I hear "town creation system"; I think "Random tables that let me create the size, population, interesting characters, fundamental conflicts, potential adventure seeds, useful stores, magic items, etc etc in a town".

What you get in DiTV is 3/10ths christian-sociology essay, and 7/10ths of "Pick a sin, invent an excuse, do it yourself and stop bothering me... I mean fuck, I'm the Game Designer! Actually having to stoop to the level of 'designing' something for my game would be a insult; how dare you even dream of asking such a thing!?"

I mean really, fuck: Ok, pick a town name, pick a sin, pick a person who did the sin, pick some other people affected by the sin.  THAT'S a "town creation system"?!

You poor stupid cunts, where the fuck have you been? How desperately do you want to fit in and belong that you will really bend down and lick Vince Baker's ass and tell him he's the next fucking Jack Kerouac for inventing that piece of shit?!

RPGPundit

Why is it so impossible for you to consider that we/they like the game, think it is innovative and helpful, and have lots of fun playing with it? Is it just... beyond you to see from someone elses eyes?

I mean, I certainly have a hard time understanding your preferences, but I don't think you are lying about them due to some desire for attention. I accept them as your preferences and I try to understand them.

Quote from: SethwickWhy is it so impossible for you to consider that we/they like the game, think it is innovative and helpful, and have lots of fun playing with it? Is it just... beyond you to see from someone elses eyes?

I mean, I certainly have a hard time understanding your preferences, but I don't think you are lying about them due to some desire for attention. I accept them as your preferences and I try to understand them.

Because he's the Pundit! D'OH! That's the way Pundits are.

-clash

Quote from: RPGPunditYou poor stupid cunts, where the fuck have you been? How desperately do you want to fit in and belong that you will really bend down and lick Vince Baker's ass and tell him he's the next fucking Jack Kerouac for inventing that piece of shit?!

Have you used it in play? Anyway, I never brought up Jack Kerouac (I don't really like him). Next Greg Stafford, maybe.

And if you're going to talk like that, how do you expect people to talk? Honestly! Look, I've been doing this stuff for a long time. I know what I'm talking about, pipe-boy.

Quote from: droogYou get characters absolutely loaded to explode in play...

What sort of nonsense jargon is this? I'd almost think the designer was paying you to shill.

Quote from: droogYou get characters absolutely loaded to explode in play, with a cosmology that gives them any authority they can enforce. You get a full set of instructions on how to run this game, and it's loaded for fun.

I feel the same way about a number of games and they are not exactly Forge-type games. In Harms Way, Jorune, Unknown Armies are just a few examples.

Regards,
David R