Quote from: RPGPunditOh, its ideological, for sure. But ideology always ends up serving someone. It might not be conscious, but I'm sure on some level of the reptile brain, the Forge guys realize that if they can actually hype up a new game that is playable for 4-8 sessions max every couple of months, they can consistently make new sales more easily than by creating a single game system that can be playable for years.

RPGPundit

See, I don't get this. Churning out small games over and over again, you have to make a new game every time. Traditional games can churn out supplements and new editions with essentially the same system. And people will actually buy this.

Quote from: RPGPunditOh, its ideological, for sure. But ideology always ends up serving someone. It might not be conscious, but I'm sure on some level of the reptile brain, the Forge guys realize that if they can actually hype up a new game that is playable for 4-8 sessions max every couple of months, they can consistently make new sales more easily than by creating a single game system that can be playable for years.

But this is always your tactic, isn't it?  When there's no evidence for your claims that other people are motivated by some shitty, petty nastiness you just claim that it's because they're consistently misrepresenting their true motives.

Maybe they're just nice people, accurately representing what they're trying to do.  I mean, I know this may seem inconceivable to you, but not everyone is driven by the basest of human emotions.

Quote from: StuartI don't agree with this line of reasoning at all.  Here's why:

Dogs in the Vineyard:  $14 PDF / $22 Print

WotC books at about $50(?) each:

Player's Handbook
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual

Try under 20$ apiece for each of the (300 or so page, color, professionally edited/laid out, hardcover)core books, from Amazon.  If you're going to try to support an argument by waving around price comparisons, maybe you should try taking 2 seconds to research the actual prices rather than pulling bogus numbers out of your nether region.

Quote from: TonyLBBut this is always your tactic, isn't it?  When there's no evidence for your claims that other people are motivated by some shitty, petty nastiness you just claim that it's because they're consistently misrepresenting their true motives.

Maybe they're just nice people, accurately representing what they're trying to do.  I mean, I know this may seem inconceivable to you, but not everyone is driven by the basest of human emotions.

There are a few asshats, but that's true of any human endeavor. There will always be a few asshats. Most of the ones I've met (online) are pretty nice guys. More than a few of them are a bit 'religious' about the Big Model, which can be off-putting if you don't share their enthusiasm, but that's like the Mormon down the street - once you get past his attempts to convert you, he's pretty cool. They're just excited and want to share something that's really cool to them, in which you have no interest. They're just gamers whose idea of a great game isn't the same as yours.

-clash

Quote from: ScaleTry under 20$ apiece for each of the (300 or so page, color, professionally edited/laid out, hardcover)core books, from Amazon.  If you're going to try to support an argument by waving around price comparisons, maybe you should try taking 2 seconds to research the actual prices rather than pulling bogus numbers out of your nether region.

So wait... DiTV is actually MORE expensive than the D&D PHB?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo wait... DiTV is actually MORE expensive than the D&D PHB?

Well, the list price on the PHB is $29.95 compared to $22 for DitV (see the PHB Product Page at WotC), but certainly you can get a PHB on sale or used for far less than that.  Indie books, being print-on-demand or at least small print runs, will usually cost more per page and certainly for equivalent production values.  

Though in the bigger picture, I don't think the ridiculously low price of the PHB is a good thing.  They can't be making much money off selling a hardbound 320-page full-color book at that price -- so it feel it's a bad sign for the business.  RPG books are already priced very low compared to other books of the same production value (like cookbooks or such), and they have a smaller market.  But that's another topic...

Quote from: ScaleTry under 20$ apiece for each of the (300 or so page, color, professionally edited/laid out, hardcover)core books, from Amazon. If you're going to try to support an argument by waving around price comparisons, maybe you should try taking 2 seconds to research the actual prices rather than pulling bogus numbers out of your nether region.

Awesome job reading the entire thread, and getting the point! :hyper:

The list price on the core D&D books is $42 CN.  I wrote "$50(?)" because I thought they were in the neighbourhood of $50, but wasn't sure -- so I added a question mark.

The list price on the core books is $29.95 US.  Go to WotC site and check if it really matters to you.

You need to own at least 3 book ($90/$120) and there are over 40 books you could buy ($1200/$1600).

The point of brining this up is -- trying to say Vincent Baker is using "sleazy" business practices because DitV is a more focused game is retarded.  Lots of mainstream RPGs cost *much* more, and many of those books (not the core ones) are *more* focused.

Ah, but TSR has Earned its audience through years of quality service, while The Swine are attempting to steal these hard earned tokens of appreciation out of the very college funds and medical care programs of the employess and shareholders of its legal sucessor by using cheap sales techniques.

LOL!  Good one, Erik!  

Quote from: StuartAwesome job reading the entire thread, and getting the point! :hyper:

The list price on the core D&D books is $42 CN.  I wrote "$50(?)" because I thought they were in the neighbourhood of $50, but wasn't sure -- so I added a question mark.

The list price on the core books is $29.95 US.  Go to WotC site and check if it really matters to you.

You need to own at least 3 book ($90/$120) and there are over 40 books you could buy ($1200/$1600).

The point of brining this up is -- trying to say Vincent Baker is using "sleazy" business practices because DitV is a more focused game is retarded.  Lots of mainstream RPGs cost *much* more, and many of those books (not the core ones) are *more* focused.

Ignoring that you arbitrarily overestimated the values to begin with, and giving you a little lee-way by assuming the sticker price is representative of the actual street price of the WoTC products (which obviously is not the case) why did you deliberately try to distort them by citing DiTV's price in US Dollars, and the WoTC books in Canadian dollars?  I'm not supporting Pundit's assertion, I'm pointing out that the numbers you initially cited are straight out bullshit, and scratching my head as to why you even bothered barfing them out.

Is there anyone on an RPG forum that TRULY doesn't know how much the core books are?  Also, for a time Amazon was offering the 3.5 core book box set for arround $60.  I honestly believe they did this for me so I wouldn't strangle a WoTC rep after buying 3.0.

I'm still not convinced that "broadly functional" is always a good thing, nor that the opposite is a bad thing. Sure I could, potentially, play DnD forever, whereas Dogs might eventually get tired (you can cover a lot of dramatic ground within its setting with it but it would probably run thin after a few medium length campaigns). So, if our only consideration is "Replay value/price" then DnD wins. However, that's not the only consideration. If we would use video games as an example, something like Civilizationhad TONS more replay value than any Final Fantasy game. Hell, you could probably play all the Final Fantasy games back to back in the time it would take to do truely everything in Civ III. However, I don't think Final Fantasy games are by definition a rip off just because their Reply/Price ratio is far less than Civ's. I get different things out of Final Fantasy, or other linear games. Bring in things like single player FPSs and it starts getting even more obvious that replay/price is far from the only value worth considering.

Really, I've always been a specialized man. I like things which focus on one thing and do it well. As such I think DitV and like games are very very well made and certainly the wave of the future for RPGs. I've heard people say you can play a DnD campaign for YEARS but a DitV campaign would probably only last a few months. My response is: so? I've never played a DnD campaign for years. I've never played a DnD campaign for A year. I've never really wanted to.

Similarly, lots of people say you can play a game with any setting in GURPS. Again, so? Why would I want to use the same system for every game I ran? That's boring. I'd much rather have a system that was made for a specific setting and even a specific them/plot structure.

Why quotes prices in Canadian dollars?  Why not -- I live in Canada.  Pundit lives in Uruguay, but he's from Canada.

Last time I looked at a D&D 3.x book in the big bookstore would have been at least a year ago.  Maybe more.  I thought it was somewhere around $50.  I wasn't sure about the exact price so I wrote $50(?).  That little question mark was my way of letting everyone know I wasn't sure about the price and was more-or-less guessing.

Quote from: GunslingerIs there anyone on an RPG forum that TRULY doesn't know how much the core books are?

Truly.

I don't own a single Wizards of the Coast product.  All the D&D books I own are 1st Edition from the 80's.  Anything I know about d20 I've read in forums or the online Systems Reference Document.

Not owning the core books, and never having purchased them, I think my $50 guess was pretty good.

Quote from: Scalewhy did you deliberately try to distort them by citing DiTV's price in US Dollars, and the WoTC books in Canadian dollars?

Deliberately?  Because you don't like what I'm saying I must be deliberately trying to mislead people?

I don't own DitV, and I had *no idea* what it might cost, so I typed "Dogs in the Vineyard" into Google and clicked on the first link.  I copied the prices and pasted them into my post.

I forgot they were in US $ not CAN $.  This isn't an unusual thing for Canadians to do.  Sometimes it's a minor mistake, sometimes it's more serious.

Whether it's $30, $40, $50 -- the point I was making it exactly the same - - there are many books to buy for that game.  Pundit's point was DitV was sleazy because the designer built the game narrowly focused so you'd need to buy more books for different narrowly focused games.

Even if the core books were $10 each, you still need at least 3 of them... that's $30.

So I don't even know what the hell kind of point you're trying to make. :confused:

Sorry about that Stuart, I was trying to be sarcastic to agree with your point.  If you bought the 3.0/3.5 Core Books at your local store it would've cost you about $105 US dollars.  If you looked around the internet you could possibly find some deals.  

The reason I picked up Burning Wheel was that for $25 US dollars I was getting everything I needed to play.  Picked up the Monster Burner (supplement) for $20 US dollars.  $105 compared to $45.

Yeah, sarcasm works really well on the Internet. :rolleyes:



Actually, I think DitV is a pretty good deal for the money.  I didn't realize Burning Wheel was only $25 -- that's not bad either.

I'm just not sure if they're my cup of tea -- but they don't seem overpriced.