Chapters.ca lists Monster Manual 3 at:
List Price:$51.95
Our Price:$34.28

I'm not saying the WotC books aren't worth what they're charging... I'm saying that calling something like Dogs in the Vineyard sleazy is going too far.

Ah, $51 Canadian. MSRP is only $34.95 American.

Quote from: RPGPunditFirst, unless there's some really serious inflation going on in your neck of the woods, its $30, not $50.

Oh... so a mere $1200 of merchandise for sale, rather than $2000.  Certainly, that makes the $22 price-tag of the entire DitV system look much sleazier by comparison.

Quote from: RPGPunditSecond, those books are usable over and over again in different ways for years. Particularly the corebooks have a huge cost-to-use ratio.

Only if you like sword and sorcery type fantasy.  Once you've played a few games of that, and it gets boring for you, there's basically nothing you can do except shell out more money for some other game.

Of course, I don't personally find sword and sorcery palls after a few sessions.  But then, I don't find that morally charged westerns pall after a few sessions either.  I get lots of use out of D&D and I get lots of use out of DitV, so we're clearly in a "Your mileage will vary" situation.

You don't find much material to interest you in judgmental westerns?  Fair enough.  But when you claim that there isn't much material there, you're simply wrong.  Just because it's not your thing doesn't mean it's nothing.

Y'know... skipping the entire list of D&D books and Canadian dollar values, this last page (30 posts per on mine...) has got me going...


heart of the game, heart of the motherfucking game....


Nobody listens to me. :rolleyes:


Give the players (GM included) solid character creation and a good, generally useful system to use and every thing else is gravy on top.  Seems like many of these forge games miss that, and try to make the game about the gravy.


Am I gonna have to go all thread necromantic on your ass?:eek:

Quote from: RPGPunditWhereas with a Forge game, you might only be paying a bit over half as much, but your use of the game is much more restricted.  Unless you seriously believe that you'd NEVER get tired of playing Igor or variants thereof, the actual cost-for-use of something like D&D is miniscule compared to the cost-for-use of My Life With Master (even assuming that you would in theory WANT to play each one, obviously someone with NO interest in D&D will get no cost-for-use out of it, ditto with MLWM; but I'm talking here about people WITH interest, the payout for interest with D&D over time is much higher than the payout for interest with MLWM, unless you're really obsessive about the very specific "theme" of MLWM).

OK, I'll buy My Life With Master or as a better example The Shab-al-Hiri Roach as scenario-like games.  They have a short-term structure built into the mechanics.  However, if you want to make an economic argument, they are around the cost of a published scenario, and they are easily replayable a number of times.  (I've played the Roach three times, and found it fresh each time -- admittedly with long breaks between.)  

More importantly, that isn't the standard for Forge games.  

Games like Primetime Adventures, Universalis, Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, and Dogs in the Vineyard aren't like that.  They have a generalized mechanics which can be used to play many different scenarios.  Some may be narrower than D&D or True20, but as you mention they are less than half the cost (particularly for a complete set of core books).  

For example, picking DitV...  Yes, it has a standard structure for scenarios: much like a mission in Paranoia or James Bond 007.  However, that's not built into the mechanics -- that's just the suggested way to make scenarios.  You can easily have scenarios which don't follow this, if you just use a little (gasp) imagination.  You know, like what a True20 GM uses when he makes up scenarios.

Quote from: jhkimFor example, picking DitV...  Yes, it has a standard structure for scenarios: much like a mission in Paranoia or James Bond 007.  However, that's not built into the mechanics -- that's just the suggested way to make scenarios.  You can easily have scenarios which don't follow this, if you just use a little (gasp) imagination.  You know, like what a True20 GM uses when he makes up scenarios.

Yeah, but forge dogma prevents development of scenarios for it. You can't talk about a book of sample towns, frex, because, yknow, Not Invented Here! Railroading! Boooo!!!!!!!!

Thus aptly demonstrating why forge dogma is bad for the development of roleplaying games.

(And is vastly entertaining because some Other forge games effectively ARE scenarios. So you can develop scenarios, just not scenarios for the games you already have!)

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, but forge dogma prevents development of scenarios for it. You can't talk about a book of sample towns, frex, because, yknow, Not Invented Here! Railroading! Boooo!!!!!!!!

Thus aptly demonstrating why forge dogma is bad for the development of roleplaying games.

Actually, plenty of people have posted towns for DitV on the web.  And I discussed having a book of sample towns on Story Games recently, and had some interesting talk on it.  There was one guy who said he didn't like the idea of a book of towns -- but there were others like me who said it would be interesting.  I think the one guy's objection was a somewhat knee-jerk reaction that it felt too much like having an "adventure module" which was part of the type of games he hated.  

So, I'm with you that there are some players who are hidebound and opposed to any changes in the game -- and that can be bad for play.  But Forge dogma doesn't prevent me from doing anything, because if it gets in the way I just ignore it.  The same applies to dogma that story games are evil swine creations which no one could have fun playing.  

You will equally find that there are some hidebound traditional RPG players.  I recall in particular that I ran a HERO System Star Trek game at a convention.  I explained to them that there weren't any damage stats for phasers -- that if you were hit by a phaser, you were automatically out.  Most of the players were fine with it, but one player was mortally offended and after arguing for a few minutes walked out.

Both John & Pundit are right in some ways, wrong in others.

Yes, the core mechanic of DitV can be used for other things besides "travelling judges moving from location to location". In fact I think it could work pretty well for a pulp adventure game or a noir potboiler.

But marketing a game on the basis of a nifty core mechanic is expressly against the design philosophy of the author of DitV. Vincent believes that "traditional" game design is faulty, because it doesn't provide a complete procedure for play. He (and others with a similar outlook) believe that scenario construction and GMing advice should be part of the rules, or considered as such.

So judged by its own goals and standards, DitV is a narrowly-focused microgame. James Bond, which it's being compared to, doesn't have the same explicit standards. Furthermore, one can argue that "Bondian adventure spy genre", while clearly limited thematically, is still broader than "travelling judges meting out justice". (Certainly it has a wider audience, even if the stories are repetitious.)

It's worth pointing out that saying "scenario construction and GMing advice should be part of the rules" doesn't mean a game would have to be as narrowly focused as DitV or other Forge games.

Quote from: Elliot WilenVincent believes that "traditional" game design is faulty, because it doesn't provide a complete procedure for play.

Yeah, but thats crap because the classics, like DnD, CoC, Vampire and Exalted have core stories. Especially DnD.

So why exactly do we have to put up with all the forge crap? Because you can make a good game out of the mechanics of Heroquest coupled with the good bits of design? Well NO SHIT SHIRLOCK - YOU SURE IS A GENIUS!

Erik;

Your response there doesn't seem to have anything to do with the part you're responding to.

Could you maybe clarify?

Erik's saying that each of these games has a "core story" that serves as a model for player expectations and GM prep. Of those mentioned the only one I know is D&D, where the "core story" is: hear about a dungeon, visit the dungeon, loot & kill, level up. (BTW, I first read the "core story" concept on Mike Mearls' livejournal.)

Sometimes in D&D & similar games, the "core story" is: get hired by some dude to deliver something or kill somebody, go off on your mission, do some fighting, level up.

The problem is that when the designers/players of these games (particularly the GM) get more ambitious and try to contextualize these isolated scenarios in a broader narrative, some of them end up railroading. Therefore the Forge hardcore, many of them recovering railroaders, believe that games need overarching rules governing social interactions.

Quote from: StuartChapters.ca lists Monster Manual 3 at:
List Price:$51.95
Our Price:$34.28

I'm not saying the WotC books aren't worth what they're charging... I'm saying that calling something like Dogs in the Vineyard sleazy is going too far.

I see. You were using Canadian dollars for the WoTC books.

Just out of curiosity, is the $22 price for DiTV Canadian dollars, or US dollars?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Elliot WilenErik's saying that each of these games has a "core story" that serves as a model for player expectations and GM prep. Of those mentioned the only one I know is D&D, where the "core story" is: hear about a dungeon, visit the dungeon, loot & kill, level up. (BTW, I first read the "core story" concept on Mike Mearls' livejournal.)

Okay, cool.

So, changing from a central vision that guides prep and play to a standard process of preparation and play feels confining?

Or, only when the game gives the vibe that "the standard process" is the right way?

Quote from: RPGPunditI see. You were using Canadian dollars for the WoTC books.

Just out of curiosity, is the $22 price for DiTV Canadian dollars, or US dollars?

Who cares.

It's not really very relevant to the point I was making -- that calling out DitV as "Sleazy" because they have a narrower scope game for $22 isn't reasonable when popular mainstream RPGs have many books of that price and higher as part of their game(s).