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The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

Started by Lord Mistborn, August 31, 2012, 06:48:11 AM

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Lord Mistborn

#525
September 07, 2012, 05:23:58 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;580832II only gives a -4 penalty to hit, which means the fighter still hits more than 50% of the time, and he'd just use his hammer of thunderbolts (which did 1d8+15 points of damage, and yes, it was on the character sheet).

You still fail.  And that's assuming an encounter with the pit fiend would be way out in the open.

I would think that at this point you'd stop talking about editions that you don't know about.

Ok the ran some numbers and It's looks likes this is a battle of atrition that the fighter is probably losing rather than the total slaughter I thought it would be, What's the Fighters save vs spell anyway.

Of coures you end up fighting the Pit Fiend out in the open the things telaport at will cast illusions and turn invisible, you fight them when and where they want to not the other way around.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Sacrosanct

#526
September 07, 2012, 05:31:10 PM Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 05:35:06 PM by Sacrosanct
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;580834Ok the ran some numbers and It's looks likes this is a battle of atrition that the fighter is probably losing rather than the total slaughter I thought it would be, What's the Fighters save vs spell anyway.

.

You ran numbers huh?  Why not show them?

Round 1, it turns invisible, fighter still does an average of 20 points per damage assuming a 50% hit rate
Round 2, it casts fireball that does a whopping 17 or so points of damage (assuming dwarf makes save, which is a 3 or better), fighter hits again for 20 more points.
Round 3: fireball again?
Round 4, Fighter is still has 1/2 hp and the pit fiend goes down.


Sorry, the only way it wins hands down is if it hasn't used a wish spell at all in the year, and that's a really rare thing.  How many monsters would a level 13 fighter face that can cast wish?

*Edit* Oh, and as the teleporting out in the open thing?  Why would the fighter follow him.  No, the fighter will stay there, ransacking the pit fiend's horde waiting for it to come back.  And if it doesn't, free treasure.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

RandallS

#527
September 07, 2012, 05:36:50 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;580834Ok the ran some numbers and It's looks likes this is a battle of atrition that the fighter is probably losing rather than the total slaughter I thought it would be, What's the Fighters save vs spell anyway.

For 2e, a 13th level fighter saves vs spell on a 8 or higher. However, a dwarf gets a +1 bonus to spell saves for every three points of CON. (And gets a +1 to rolled CON). Assume a CON of only 12 and this fighter saves vs spells on a roll of 4 or higher. 15 CON and its 3 or higher. 18 CON is unlikely, but that would be 2 or higher.
Randall
Rules Light RPGs: Home of Microlite20 and Other Rules-Lite Tabletop RPGs

Lord Mistborn

#528
September 07, 2012, 05:37:58 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;580835You ran numbers huh?  Why not show them?

Round 1, it turns invisible, fighter still does an average of 20 points per damage assuming a 50% hit rate
Round 2, it casts fireball that does a whopping 17 or so points of damage (assuming dwarf makes save, which is a 3 or better), fighter hits again for 20 more points.
Round 3: fireball again?
Round 4, Fighter is still has 1/2 hp and the pit fiend goes down.

It goes more like this
Round 1 The Pit Fiend Fireballs you because it's already invisible
Round 2 The Pit Fiend Teleports eleswhere and regens his hp back
rinse repeat untill the fighter is a charred corpse.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Lord Mistborn

#529
September 07, 2012, 05:44:30 PM
If the Pit Fiend can't teleport to a safe spot he can also spam the Battlefeild with Advanced Illusions of Pit Fiends casting Fireball good luck finding the real one.

Gosh it's like the Bone Devil all over again how do you even beat Pit Fiends anyway.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Sacrosanct

#530
September 07, 2012, 05:46:13 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;580837It goes more like this
Round 1 The Pit Fiend Fireballs you because it's already invisible
Round 2 The Pit Fiend Teleports eleswhere and regens his hp back
rinse repeat untill the fighter is a charred corpse.


Oh, so you're changing the rules again.  You should really stop doing that.  For one, why does it get an extra round to turn invisible?  Secondly, it would take 10 rounds to regen it's hp back from 1 attack.  The fighter would have it's treasure by then and probably gone.

keep trying.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Exploderwizard

#531
September 07, 2012, 05:47:02 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;580837It goes more like this
Round 1 The Pit Fiend Fireballs you because it's already invisible
Round 2 The Pit Fiend Teleports eleswhere and regens his hp back
rinse repeat untill the fighter is a charred corpse.

It will be likewise with the wizard.

(This is the part where you display your deck building prowess by posting a super-duper Balrog-killing wizard build that would only exist in a white room thus proving the superiority of casters)

Right?
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

RandallS

#532
September 07, 2012, 05:49:54 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;580837It goes more like this
Round 1 The Pit Fiend Fireballs you because it's already invisible
Round 2 The Pit Fiend Teleports eleswhere and regens his hp back
rinse repeat untill the fighter is a charred corpse.

Why would the fighter still be there? At 3hp regen per round, it takes the PF 7 rounds to regenerate from the 20 points of damage the fighter gave him. After a time or two of battle, PF teleports away to regenerate, returns an average of 7 rounds later to do it again, a lone fighter would have to be pretty dumb to stand around waiting for more if he did not think he could beat the PF.
Randall
Rules Light RPGs: Home of Microlite20 and Other Rules-Lite Tabletop RPGs

Lord Mistborn

#533
September 07, 2012, 05:50:37 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;580840It will be likewise with the wizard.

(This is the part where you display your deck building prowess by posting a super-duper Balrog-killing wizard build that would only exist in a white room thus proving the superiority of casters)

Right?

I could do it in 3rd. Not in 2e though I'm genuinely stumped.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Sacrosanct

#534
September 07, 2012, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: RandallS;580841Why would the fighter still be there? At 3hp regen per round, it takes the PF 7 rounds to regenerate from the 20 points of damage the fighter gave him. After a time or two of battle, PF teleports away to regenerate, returns an average of 7 rounds later to do it again, a lone fighter would have to be pretty dumb to stand around waiting for more if he did not think he could beat the PF.

Actually, that was a typo.  They only regen 2 hp per round.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

RandallS

#535
September 07, 2012, 06:00:31 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;580843Actually, that was a typo.  They only regen 2 hp per round.

Hunts up 2e MM. You're right.

This makes it even less likely that the fighter would hang waiting to be fried by the pit fiend again. I guess he'd hang around just so he could die and therefore demonstrate Lord Mistborn's premise that (stupidly played) fighters really cannot hold their own again powerful opponents. Of course, I happen to agree that stupidly played high level fighters do very poorly just as stupidly played high level characters of other classes do.
Randall
Rules Light RPGs: Home of Microlite20 and Other Rules-Lite Tabletop RPGs

Lord Mistborn

#536
September 07, 2012, 06:07:50 PM
Quote from: RandallS;580844Hunts up 2e MM. You're right.

This makes it even less likely that the fighter would hang waiting to be fried by the pit fiend again. I guess he'd hang around just so he could die and therefore demonstrate Lord Mistborn's premise that (stupidly played) fighters really cannot hold their own again powerful opponents. Of course, I happen to agree that stupidly played high level fighters do very poorly just as stupidly played high level characters of other classes do.

What exactly stoping the Devil from using hit and run tactics, The Pit Fiend ambushes the fighter does damage then teleports to safety. The fighter can't win unless he has some way of preventing the Pit Fiend from finding him or he can somehow shut off the Devils Teleport.
Quote from: Me;576460As much as this debacle of a thread has been an embarrassment for me personally (and it has ^_^\' ). I salute you mister unintelligible troll guy. You ran as far to the extreme as possible on the anti-3e thing and Benoist still defended you against my criticism. Good job.

Sacrosanct

#537
September 07, 2012, 06:12:11 PM
To satisfy my curiosity, I also ran with a level 13 generic magic user, and what spells would probably be best for a battle against demons (of those available to memorize)

Mage

    1st Level
        Protection From Evil x2
        Read Magic
        Shield
        Tenser's Floating Disc
    2nd Level
        Blindness
        Fog Cloud
        Protection From Paralysis
        Strength
        Wizard Lock
    3rd Level
        Blink
        Lightning Bolt
        Maximilian's Stony Grasp
        Wall of Water
        Wraithform
    4th Level
        Charm Monster
        Dimension Door
        Fire Shield
        Minor Spell Turning
    5th Level
        Attraction
        Cloudkill
        Conjure Earth Elemental x2
    6th Level
        Demi-shadow Magic
        Invisible Stalker
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Sacrosanct

#538
September 07, 2012, 06:12:51 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;580845What exactly stoping the Devil from using hit and run tactics, The Pit Fiend ambushes the fighter does damage then teleports to safety. The fighter can't win unless he has some way of preventing the Pit Fiend from finding him or he can somehow shut off the Devils Teleport.

Fighter takes his treasure and leaves.  How is the pit fiend going to find him?
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Exploderwizard

#539
September 07, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
Quote from: Lord Mistborn;580842I could do it in 3rd. Not in 2e though I'm genuinely stumped.

Oh please use 3rd.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.
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