The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[Lord Mistborn]

Don't you think putting a 15th level fighter against a magical construct with immunity to most magic items while not giving him a weapon able to damage the creature a bit of a disingenuous matchup?  By the time a character reaches 15th level, it's not a leap of logic to assume they will have an item that could damage the creature.

So it seems from my position that by saying the fighter can't have a magic weapon, you're arguing for a scenario that never happens with any statistical significance and therefore is a moot argument.

Well If you want to make fighters less item dependent maybe ditching the mechanic that says "you must have at least a +X weapon to fight this monster" should probably be the first thing on the chopping block.

Please allow me to point out that it did finally died out completely in 3.5 when they switch to DR X/stuff instead of DR X/+Y

[RandallS]

You can quote that all you want, it's still bullshit. It's just bullshit writen by the game developers. The books will handwave the issue really hard in every edition to keep model train enthusists from sending the writers death threats. At the end of the day the high level figher is still surviving absurd falls, able to run around on fire for 10-20 times as long as some low level peon, and get punched in the face by an Iron Golem. Deal with it.

Basically what you are saying is you want hit points to work differently than they do in D&D? Therefore, since you want them to work differently, you are going to assume they work the way you want them to (instead of they way the designers says they do) when trying to make points about why classes need to be changed to the way you want them?

You may not agree that this is what you are doing, but it is sure what it looks like you are going from reading your messages. Unfortunately, it isn't going to convince anyone who does not agree with you.

[Lord Mistborn]

You're a fucking idiot.  Sorry, that's all there is to it.  You can say I'm making a personal attack towards you, but there's no other proper term.  When a guy keeps arguing that the sun is blue despite being show that the sun is yellow/orange, "idiot" is about the only thing left.  

They didn't "handwave" the term away.  They clearly defined it as a rule in the context of the game.  You clearly have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.  And you obviously didn't read any of those links because a lot of these "superhuman" things you mention happened in real life.

They defined it yes, their defintion is dumb and does not stand up to logic.

So one more time
-A Fighter
-Kills 24 tons of Earth Elemental
-By hitting it with a sword.

Explain how this is not superhuman.

[MGuy]

Well If you want to make fighters less item dependent maybe ditching the mechanic that says "you must have at least a +X weapon to fight this monster" should probably be the first thing on the chopping block.

Please allow me to point out that it did finally died out completely in 3.5 when they switch to DR X/stuff instead of DR X/+Y

Sacro not getting logic is one thing but if you're going to entertain this subject (as I did in the FvW thread) you should make mention of a few things:

1: Fighter with just +x weapon and armor STILL don't have enough options to make them competent on an adventure.

2: Casters at these higher levels even when the fighter gets their +X stuff STILL beat the breaks off of a fighter at combat.

3: Casters can charm, raise, summon, mind control people that range from a bit worse to straight up better than the fighter when it comes to combat.

4: Fighter's with +X weapons/pants STILL can't do anything of relevance outside of combat.

5: Fighters are STILL playing the numbers game while casters have moved on to having horizontal as well as vertical power. Or, in other words, casters have way more shit they can straight up do.

6: Monsters at higher levels have the ability to fight as well as or only slightly worse than an equal leveled fighter with +X equipment AND get spells or abilities that allow them to do more than fight or at least gives them more interesting stuff to do.

If you're going to continuously entertain more fighter vs caster stuff at least make sure to pull out all your guns and force people like Sancro to have to handwave a bunch of stuff instead of just one or two things.

Edit: Also don't bother with the links. The first one is just a bunch of people who ran/walked for a long time and the second are a bunch of people who fucking died to low level bullshit. In none of them did someone jump off a cliff and walk it off or get hit by a truck just to get up and hack the truck to death so don't bother with them.

[RandallS]

Explain how this is not superhuman.

It's generally impossible to prove a negative -- this is especially true when what is to be proven is "subjective". "Superhuman" is there is no generally agreed upon standard for what constitutes "superhuman" and what does not.

[beejazz]

They defined it yes, their defintion is dumb and does not stand up to logic.

So one more time
-A Fighter
-Kills 24 tons of Earth Elemental
-By hitting it with a sword.

Explain how this is not superhuman.

There's a difference between amping up the power on what normal people can do and doing things normal people can't.

Killing monsters / breaking things : something anyone can do.
Killing gods / knocking down buildings: something a heroic someone can do.
Flying: not so much.

Getting back to the original argument that you were getting at (that the fighter already defies logic, so why not do it more?) this is why it's pointless to really discuss hp any further. Point is that even if you were right about how they work, it doesn't follow that one either should or might as well "bake in" magic in a nonmagic class.

As for the golem, apparently the magic can be disrupted by sufficient physical trauma. Which doesn't have to mean total annihilation. HP are a a catch-all for many things. They aren't always just meat.

[Sacrosanct]

They defined it yes, their defintion is dumb and does not stand up to logic.

So one more time
-A Fighter
-Kills 24 tons of Earth Elemental
-By hitting it with a sword.

Explain how this is not superhuman.

I already did a few pages above.  Then you decided that you wanted to change the definition of how hit points worked to something other than what the game defined them as.

How about you answer my question.  What specific action did the fighter take in that combat round that was superhuman?  You like to ask questions and ask for proof, but you haven't ever actually provided proof for any of your claims.  

Seriously, how old are you?  I'm guessing 12 or 13.

[MGuy]

As for the golem, apparently the magic can be disrupted by sufficient physical trauma. Which doesn't have to mean total annihilation. HP are a a catch-all for many things. They aren't always just meat.

That just makes it worse because then you have to explain how a human with a stick ( a very shiny stick that is probably very valuable) can produce enough force swinging it to cause a significant amount of trauma to a large chunk of iron.

[beejazz]

Sacro not getting logic is one thing but if you're going to entertain this subject (as I did in the FvW thread) you should make mention of a few things:

No he really shouldn't. We're talking general class balance and (ostensibly) no one wants to get dragged back into that bullshit thread.

It helps to isolate points to debate, and bringing up unrelated tangents gets nobody anywhere.

His argument is that the fighter is already absurd therefore why not magic? Bringing in the rest of it does not support that point, it just shifts the topic of conversation to something we're all already sick to death of going over.

[Lord Mistborn]

Basically what you are saying is you want hit points to work differently than they do in D&D? Therefore, since you want them to work differently, you are going to assume they work the way you want them to (instead of they way the designers says they do) when trying to make points about why classes need to be changed to the way you want them?

No HP clearly work one way.

The way they work is very unrealistic and make high level characters explicitly superhuman, this doesn't bother me at all.

However the way HP actually works will make model train enthusiasts rage.

So the designers pretend it works one way when they explain the HP mechanic even though so much of the mechanics only make sense if you view HP as a measure of raw toughness.

There is a reason that no modern "realistic" RPGs use HP.

Understood?

[beejazz]

That just makes it worse because then you have to explain how a human with a stick ( a very shiny stick that is probably very valuable) can produce enough force swinging it to cause a significant amount of trauma to a large chunk of iron.

If it's a magic stick? No problem. Nonmagic stick breaks. Magic weapons disrupt the protective magic of some monsters and the animating magic of some undead and constructs.

Fighter doesn't have to break the iron to disrupt the enchantment and kill the thing.

[Exploderwizard]

This is exactly my point, the fighter borders on the supernaturally awesome that's what (Ex) means you're only agreeing with me here, welcome to weeaboo land my friend.

Now how do the fighters superhuman abilities translate into lateral advancement.

The fighter is way more than a regular guy. WTF does that have to do with flying or defying gravity?

Mage Hand object to push open door. Yes, you can do that. Not exactly something complicated. I have cats that can nudge open free swinging doors in my house. Not a big deal. If you want to add "the door is stuck, heavy, barred, iron, etc" to the mix then that's fine I have can handle all of those with, you know, a team of people with hands or a single spell if I'm inclined to waste one on the task. So the fuck what? The idea is still stupid and I have no idea why anyone would want to defend it.

What's more is I don't know why there are people who don't think the fact that a man with a sword can put enough force behind swinging a 2ton metal thing to damage straight up iron isn't a superhuman feat. I also don't know why the fuck people are arguing about HP since HP is wonky anyway and leads to sudden critical existence failure when it runs out. I don't know why people would want to rationalize HP as some kind of defense of fighter's super human actions but that's just stupid since the very fat that HP exists is unrealistic.

So to sum up, the fighter is worthless because a mage can expend a limited daily resource to do something the fighter can with a shove and you don't like the way D&D treats HP.

You can quote that all you want, it's still bullshit. It's just bullshit writen by the game developers. The books will handwave the issue really hard in every edition to keep model train enthusists from sending the writers death threats. At the end of the day the high level figher is still surviving absurd falls, able to run around on fire for 10-20 times as long as some low level peon, and get punched in the face by an Iron Golem. Deal with it.

Again, the bottom line is that you fundamentally dislike D&D. Thats perfectly fine, it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I just don't understand why WOTC chose to listen to those who hate D&D instead of those that love it.

[Bedrockbrendan]

I know and you are happy with the disparity between classes because you think the figther had it good awhen they were all kids so ...

But if people are saying that the 15th level fighter can beat the golem because they have a magic sword and when pressed they say that a 15th level figther will always have a magic sword its assumed by the rules then there is an underlying assumption of entitlement there.

the magic kit of the fighter has been used as reason why he can beat a dragon and a host of other discussions. We are in danger of gettign to a point where its not 'expected' but its still ubiquitous.

The key thing is by that level they likely have access to a number of magic tools they can use against a variety of threats. It is expected but not assured because campaign events matter. The fact that a fighter can weild a +4 sword effectively when he gets his hands on one is important to balance. It isnt assured though because a built in draw back of being a mundane is you have to possess tools like that in order to use them.

Others may be suggesting they are entitled to the sword (and in some campaigns that is how it works). I am saying they find what they find in the course pf the campaign (and given how the treasure tables are set up it is very likely they will have some useful tools by 15th level). Theu can also quest for specific items if there is something they feel they need.

[Lord Mistborn]

His argument is that the fighter is already absurd therefore why not magic? Bringing in the rest of it does not support that point, it just shifts the topic of conversation to something we're all already sick to death of going over.

The fighter is way more than a regular guy. WTF does that have to do with flying or defying gravity?

Tell me when I said the fighter need to fly. The fighter does need some kind of lateral advancement.

LM's argument is as followed

The conceptual space "ordinary human with training" is sharply limited and the game needs to acknowledge that.

If that really is the limit to the conceptional space for the fighter class then the class needs to end as soon as the can't meaningfully participate in adventures without stepping outside his conceptual space. This means that the fighter ends at 5-7 end of story

Now if you acknowledge that the fighters conceptional space the much more versatile "person who can surpass human limits through training and being a badass." then you can push the fighters point of obsolescence back much further. Possibly to level 20. What exactly being a surperhuman with training in weapons and armor lets you do still needs to be hashed out.

[Bedrockbrendan]

Don't you think putting a 15th level fighter against a magical construct with immunity to most magic items while not giving him a weapon able to damage the creature a bit of a disingenuous matchup?  By the time a character reaches 15th level, it's not a leap of logic to assume they will have an item that could damage the creature.

So it seems from my position that by saying the fighter can't have a magic weapon, you're arguing for a scenario that never happens with any statistical significance and therefore is a moot argument.

I think its okay to have uneven match ups where the pcs are missing tools needed to win (though that doent mean they cant figure out an alternative way out). This turns simple encounters into something much more. You can have a whole adventure trying to figure out the golems weakness or tracking down a weapn powerful enough to kill him.

But i think you nail it here: it is very likely by 15th level that the fighter does have the weapin even if it isnt a certainty. There is a mixture of luck andhard work involved in this. Personally i find that more rewardong and surprising than: all 15th level fighters are handed a +4 sword, boots of speed, etc.