The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[jibbajibba]

Indeed, Conan wrestled an iron golem, eventually defeating it with a magical dagger.

It's what fighters do.

But Conan he is a bit superhuman wouldn't you say... typically?

[jibbajibba]

Mage Hand
Level:    Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components:    V, S
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:    One nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb.
Duration:    Concentration
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No
You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though  the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds  the spell's range.

A door is neither unattended nor weighs five pounds or less.  Do you even read the spells you argue about, Grand Master of Logic?

I know this seems like a daft notion but Figthers do not automaticlaly have high stength.
In early D&D the requirement was 9 and often you took figther as the best of a bad set of options.
By 1e when Player entitlement had reached the point that  2 stats over 15 was seen as minimum requirement a fighter is likely to have 15+ Strength. Although in play for scores of 15 or 16 Con is more useful and so is Charisma but 15+ Str gives you the XP bonus which metagamely useful.
Even in this case being a fighter and having high strength are not tied together in the rules.

The ability to open heavy doors in a dungeon (and I love it when all the doors are stuck but the denizens can move about unresticted ) is dependent on Strength not on being a fighter. The two are certainly related but they are not explicitly tied together in the rules.

[jibbajibba]

As an aside using MAge Hand to open a door is a rubbish idea.

An Unseen Servant is far far superior as ther eis no need to concentrate on it so you can get on with something else whist it polishes the gold you found earlier.
I notice the 3e version (below) has been slightly nerfed as a trap locator as it now disapates after 6 points of 'area' damage where as previously it was magical damage and they have a specific nerf about pressure plates.

Unseen Servant  Conjuration (Creation)  
Level:  Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1  
Components:  V, S, M  
Casting time:  1 standard action  
Range:  Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)  
Effect:  One invisible, mindless, shapeless servant  
Duration:  1 hour/level  
Saving Throw:  None  
Spell Resistance:  No  


An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the same activity over and over again if told to do so as long as you remain within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices. It can't perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can't be used untrained. Its speed is 15 feet.

The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If you attempt to send it beyond the spell's range (measured from your current position), the servant ceases to exist.

Material Component: A piece of string and a bit of wood.

[Lord Mistborn]

Welcome to D&D, I guess...?

Are you saying the very basic tenets and mechanics of D&D are not to your liking now?  Honestly, your only recourse is find another game.  That's not even being a dick; you don't appear to like anything about D&D.

As I said before, and as is mentioned in the books, HP is also a reflection of luck, skill, and experience, to name a few things.  Especially at high levels.  This too is explicitly pointed out in the manual.  It is entirely possible that the reason the fighter can take so much damage is because he's so skilled (a level 15 fighter is a superhero of legends) he manages to side-step or deflect the blows at the last moment.

Hit Points is not a 1 for 1 reflection of ability to take damage

I hope you can finally understand that now and cease with this nonsense.

Sigh, I can't be helped, if this is really the argument you guys want to make a stand on that's fine.

HP is totally a 1 to 1 reflection of a characters ability to get punched in the face. The game handwaves really hard about it and tries to pretend it's not because like I said the model train enthusiasts hate the idea of the fighter having even the smallest of superhuman abilities.

HP as anything other than a raw measure of toughness breaks down logically even under the lightest scrutiny.

-Magic Missiles automatically hit and do not target a location on the body. fighter 13 can take 20 of the things and still be standing when a 1st level smuck goes down to 2 of them.

-Poisoned Crossbow bolts have to hit to deliver their poison, the fighter can get shot 20 or more times with those Drow hand crossbows while some 1st level shmuck goes down to 2-3 of them.

-Falling damage. No amount of skill or luck will let an ordinary human survive a  200+ ft. fall on to solid stone but someone with 70 or more hp can totally just keep on walking after that. Once again for some low level shmuck that's guaranteed death. Heck if falling damage caps at 20d6 in 2e the way it does in 3e then that fighter can fall from any height on to any surface and walk it off.

-The Fighter 13 takes a swim in "deadly" acid, well not really. When I said "deadly" acid the deadly was in massive sarcasm quotes. He could take a bath in the stuff, put it on cereal, rub it right into his eyes it's not deadly at all to him. Once again some low level shmuck is going to dissolve in 1-3 rounds.

-The Fighter 13 and two 1st level fighters light themselves on fire. The Fighter 13 is still burning like some kind of demented human candle long after the other 2 are charred corpses.

-The fighter is under the effect of hold person, is unable to move or dodge, and the Iron Golem punches him right in the face. In 2e in fact it takes that Iron Golem the same amount of time to beat a held fighter to death as it does to beat him to death when he isn't magically paralyzed.

These are just the exaples I have off the top of my head. If you really want I can find even more by pageing through my 2e books.

[jibbajibba]

Sigh, I can't be helped, if this is really the argument you guys want to make a stand on that's fine.

HP is totally a 1 to 1 reflection of a characters ability to get punched in the face. The game handwaves really hard about it and tries to pretend it's not because like I said the model train enthusiasts hate the idea of the fighter having even the smallest of superhuman abilities.

HP as anything other than a raw measure of toughness breaks down logically even under the lightest scrutiny.

-Magic Missiles automatically hit and do not target a location on the body. fighter 13 can take 20 of the things and still be standing when a 1st level smuck goes down to 2 of them.

-Poisoned Crossbow bolts have to hit to deliver their poison, the fighter can get shot 20 or more times with those Drow hand crossbows while some 1st level shmuck goes down to 2-3 of them.

-Falling damage. No amount of skill or luck will let an ordinary human survive a  200+ ft. fall on to solid stone but someone with 70 or more hp can totally just keep on walking after that. Once again for some low level shmuck that's guaranteed death. Heck if falling damage caps at 20d6 in 2e the way it does in 3e then that fighter can fall from any height on to any surface and walk it off.

-The Fighter 13 take a swim in "deadly acid", well not really. When I said "deadly acid" the deadly was in massive sarcasm quotes he could take a bath in the stuff put it on cereal rub it right into his eyes it's not deadly at all to him. Once again some low level shmuck is going to dissolve in 1-3 rounds.

-The Fighter 13 and two 1st level fighters light themselves on fire. The Fighter 13 is still burning like some kind of demented human candle long after the other 2 are charred corpses.

-The fighter is under the effect of hold person, is unable to move or dodge, and the Iron Golem punches him right in the face. In 2e in fact it takes that Iron Golem the same amount of time to beat a held fighter to death as it does to beat him to death when he isn't magically paralyzed.

These are just the exaples I have off the top of my head. If you really want I can find even more by pageing through my 2e books.

No really it is broken and not worth arguing about. HP are just silly so accpet it and move on.

[Lord Mistborn]

No really it is broken and not worth arguing about. HP are just silly so accpet it and move on.

I didn't want to have to do that, like I said it can't be helped. They want to be model train enthusists and say the fighters are and ought to be within the limit of ordinary humans.

 What my point is is that they're not and that's OK.

Fighters should be surpassing the limits of normal humans after level X. If people want to cap character advancement before that point that's fine. I don't think that's a good way for D&D to go.

[jibbajibba]

I didn't want to have to do that, like I said it can't be helped. They want to be model train enthusists and say the fighters are and ought to be within the limit of ordinary humans.

 What my point is is that they're not and that's OK.

Fighters should be surpassing the limits of normal humans after level X. If people want to cap character advancement before that point that's fine. I don't think that's a good way for D&D to go.

But arguing about Hit points is a pointless exercise. All classes have HP all monsters have HP.
Given the range and variation of damage in the real world a 1st level character should have closer to 100HP and a sword for example should deal 15d10 with the addition of damage from bleeding.

Its explicitly stated that HP do not represent direct physical damage so whilst all your arguments are correct-ish they are like a broken pencil....

Now interestingly I would say that an Iron Golem's HP do represent actual physical damage just liek I woudl say the same about a horse or an elephant or a stone idol.

So this is not a fight that is worth fighting.

Everyone agrees the fighter needs a magic sword to be effective or an equivalent power. The detail then comes down to how much a PC is their kit, does how the kit is acquired matter, what about powers? Brendan didn't mind that a Barbarian could hit a creature that was normally hit by magic because it seemed like a mundane power but if the fighter had a power that he could imbue his weapons with magical Chi power that woudl then cause them to glow and be able to hit creatures normally hit by magical weapons that might be a deal breaker.

So at this point it almost comes down to the description of the 'power'.

The Story about how the equipment/effect is generated is as important as the rules about how the power works and its effects.

[RandallS]

No tactics, no items beyond the one need to hit the danm thing and the fighter hacks to death a 12ft tall 5'000 lbs. piece of magically animated Iron. I think that counts a superhuman feat.

The fighter required no supernatural powers or built-in magical abilities to do so. All he needed was the magic sword required to hit the iron golem and his mundane fighting abilities. You can call this a superhuman feat if you wish, as it is something no 0 level human could do, but by this meaning of superhuman a 1st level fighter killing a wererat is superhuman. However, as nothing but mundane (but extraordinary good) fighting abilities were used, this does not justify giving a fighter supernatural or magical powers built-in at any point -- in fact, the fact that a high level fighter can kill the iron golem so easily shows that such class abilities are actually NOT needed.

[Lord Mistborn]

The fighter required no supernatural powers or built-in magical abilities to do so. All he needed was the magic sword required to hit the iron golem and his mundane fighting abilities. You can call this a superhuman feat if you wish, as it is something no 0 level human could do, but by this meaning of superhuman a 1st level fighter killing a wererat is superhuman. However, as nothing but mundane (but extraordinary good) fighting abilities were used, this does not justify giving a fighter supernatural or magical powers built-in at any point -- in fact, the fact that a high level fighter can kill the iron golem so easily shows that such class abilities are actually NOT needed.

In a game numbers are supposed to mean something, not just be something you write on your character, the fact that a the average Joe on the street is represented as level 0-1 and the Fighter class can go all the way up to 20 means something.

A bunch of 0 level peons can take down a wererat or an Oger. However even factoring out the Golem's immunity to normal weapons the number of peons it takes to bring down a Golem or a 13th level fighter posits a power disparity that makes high level characters superhuman almost by definition.

Let's bring in an even lower level example. A Huge Earth Elemental. The thing is twice a big as the Iron Golem. The game expects you to kill a 32ft tall 24 ton mass of undifferentiated rock with a bad attitude, with your sword. Good luck with that mister totally a normal human fighter guy.

[RandallS]

First off I agree with he main thrust of this as I just said but I would like to note that there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting anime like action in a game. BESM is a thing.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with anime-like action in an anime game. D&D, however, is not an anime game and I have zero interest in it becoming one -- or in playing it if it did.

[Lord Mistborn]

So at this point it almost comes down to the description of the 'power'.

Exactly

[RandallS]

Let's bring in an even lower level example. A Huge Earth Elemental. The thing is twice a big as the Iron Golem. The game expects you to kill a 32ft tall 24 ton mass of undifferentiated rock with a bad attitude, with your sword. Good luck with that mister totally a normal human fighter guy.

Yet fighters can do so without adding any supernatural/magical special class abilities. Saying that their ability to kill them means they are already supernatural so you can't object to adding supernatural/magical special class abilities to the fighter just isn't an argument that is going to convince anyone who does not want fighters with  supernatural/magical special class abilities.

I would have no objection to an optional "Supernatural/Magical/Anime Powers for Everyone" D&D supplement as long as GMs were absolutely free to say "we are not using this supplement in this campaign". As core rules or rules that players were otherwise somehow going to feel entitled to have used in any D&D campaign, no.

[Bedrockbrendan]

I agree that there's nothing wrong with anime-like action in an anime game. D&D, however, is not an anime game and I have zero interest in it becoming one -- or in playing it if it did.

I dont think any of us are saying wanting anime in D&D is wrong. If someone wants that kind of play, the game can be tweaked to achieve it, and 3E came close to making it an asumption of play (one reason many of us were wary of builds). What I dispute is LMs claim that deep down, D&D is and must be about weeabo. That it is inevitable if one examines the logic of the mechanics or if one wants any semblance of balance. One can orefer that, but clearly we an all reasonably disagree on 1) what the rules themselves suggest about the flavor of the game and 2) whether fighters require innate magic powers to have any parity with spell casters

[Lord Mistborn]

Yet fighters can do so without adding any supernatural/magical special class abilities. Saying that their ability to kill them means they are already supernatural so you can't object to adding supernatural/magical special class abilities to the fighter just isn't an argument that is going to convince anyone who does not want fighters with  supernatural/magical special class abilities.

Their is a diffrence between (Su) and (Ex) I suggest you go learn it.

The fighter already has one (Ex) ability. He can sword to death things that by all logic no human could sword to death. After you allow the fighter to kill 24 tons of rock without magic items everything else you have to discuss with me is quibbling over fluff.

[jibbajibba]

I dont think any of us are saying wanting anime in D&D is wrong. If someone wants that kind of play, the game can be tweaked to achieve it, and 3E came close to making it an asumption of play (one reason many of us were wary of builds). What I dispute is LMs claim that deep down, D&D is and must be about weeabo. That it is inevitable if one examines the logic of the mechanics or if one wants any semblance of balance. One can orefer that, but clearly we an all reasonably disagree on 1) what the rules themselves suggest about the flavor of the game and 2) whether fighters require innate magic powers to have any parity with spell casters

But we do all agree that they need something. Its just the description of that something.

So a figther who can fly by default is a no no. But a fighter who can fly because he found winged boots is fine
A fighter who can empower his soul bound sword to make it +3/+3 with his Chi power is a no no. But a figther who found a +3/+3 sword is fine.
A fighter who can dodge a mighty blow and turn 25 points of damage into a scratch is fine but one that can take a 25 point blow full in the face and grin it off isn't

Now these things are mechanically the same but some fit the D&D stage dress and some don't.
In the end its all about the sort of story you want to tell I guess.

So I guess the people that care about the perceived power disparity can just use magic items to bridge the gap or give feat like powers that replicate magic items.

A couple of approaches :
i) The GM identifies the PCs gaps and writes in magic treasure
ii) The GM allow PCs to pick treasure or roll it off a defined list
iii) The GM creates class powers that mirror the effect of certain items. So skin of steel, PC get +3 AC; Chi Leap, the PC can leap and spring as if they were carrying a ring of jumping - jump forward 30 feet upwards 10 feet backwards 15 feet allfrom a standing position usage 3 times per day or 1 for every 3 levels

Quite how you do it depends on what stage dress you want. Final Fantasy, Conan, Arthurian etc etc