The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[Sacrosanct]

Look its no big deal you just made a mistake with what + you needed to hit a golem I was only kidding when I brought it up don't get upset.

My post wasn't directed at you.

[Sacrosanct]

So I decided to run some numbers. 2e Fighter 13 vs Iron Golem

The fighter has a +3 one-handed sword no other magic items and he's wearing full plate and carrying a sheild, his stats are Str 17 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10 His thac0 is 3 he can do 5/2 attacks per round for 1d12+6 damage and he has AC 0 and 80 hp.

As he and the Iron Golem hack away at each other it takes him about 2.7 rounds to kill the golem, the golem takes about 4 rounds to kill him so this match is clearly in the fighters favor. It's not even a close fight.

No tactics, no items beyond the one need to hit the danm thing and the fighter hacks to death a 12ft tall 5'000 lbs. piece of magically animated Iron. I think that counts a superhuman feat.

What, exactly, is super human?  Be specific.  What particular action that the fighter does is beyond human ability?

[beejazz]

I would have to see it in action. But i still dont think it would be a problem. Once you pick a class you are stuck with it that day. It is no different than having another rogue or another fighter in the party that day. I think given the classes flexibility you would want to build in a downside (but it doesnt neccesarily have to be less effective at the class abilities). But to decide what the downside ought to be I will really need to playtest the class in some actual adventures and campaigns.

An unrelated weakness would probably be the best route for this sort of thing. Funny that I hadn't thought of it.

Historical Note: This is similar to how elves worked in pre-Greyhawk OD&D. Each time they went on an adventure they had to pick if they would be a fighter for that adventure or a magic-user for that adventure.

Have you ever played that way? If so, was it cool, or was it weird? I can see having a hard time explaining it.

For most people, I would certainly agree, and I would have taken a different tack in addressing their concerns or ideas.  The Denners have made it plainly clear they have just about zero interest in any other game besides D&D 3.x

From lurking on the den and from reading stuff like Soul Fantasy on here it seems like they're interested in 3.x more as a baseline than something inescapable. The discussion here has been pretty tethered to 3.x both because it's their shared baseline and because it's something both sites are at least familiar with. Bringing in links to their respective homebrews would confuse the discussion. I'd love to use my game-in-progress in these discussions, and I do sometimes, but I try to avoid it when arguing general cases for the sake of clarity.

And they certainly can be useful discussions.  When the starting point is 'it's a fact that class A is wildly more powerful than class B', then not so much.

In FvW, it was a terrible starting point. But IIRC it was jeff that started that one (I think... not even worth a look though) and it caught the eye of those at the den.

In this particular case, the topic is broader. I see no reason to assume it's about something the participants claim it isn't about.

[StormBringer]

HP are still HP no matter how hard you handwave. not only can this hypothetical fighter hack an iron golem to death with his sword, he is exactly as hard to stab to death as said 12ft tall 5,000 lbs. being of solid iron.

Welcome to D&D, I guess...?

Are you saying the very basic tenets and mechanics of D&D are not to your liking now?  Honestly, your only recourse is find another game.  That's not even being a dick; you don't appear to like anything about D&D.

[Sacrosanct]

HP are still HP no matter how hard you handwave. not only can this hypothetical fighter hack an iron golem to death with his sword, he is exactly as hard to stab to death as said 12ft tall 5,000 lbs. being of solid iron.

As I said before, and as is mentioned in the books, HP is also a reflection of luck, skill, and experience, to name a few things.  Especially at high levels.  This too is explicitly pointed out in the manual.  It is entirely possible that the reason the fighter can take so much damage is because he's so skilled (a level 15 fighter is a superhero of legends) he manages to side-step or deflect the blows at the last moment.

[size=19]Hit Points is not a 1 for 1 reflection of ability to take damage[/size]

I hope you can finally understand that now and cease with this nonsense.

[StormBringer]

From lurking on the den and from reading stuff like Soul Fantasy on here it seems like they're interested in 3.x more as a baseline than something inescapable.

When it is the baseline as well as the only resource, I am not sure I see the difference, but I have no problem agreeing to disagree on this.

The discussion here has been pretty tethered to 3.x both because it's their shared baseline and because it's something both sites are at least familiar with. Bringing in links to their respective homebrews would confuse the discussion. I'd love to use my game-in-progress in these discussions, and I do sometimes, but I try to avoid it when arguing general cases for the sake of clarity.

Understandable, but I think discussing each on its own merits in separate threads with some cross-talk isn't terribly burdensome.

In FvW, it was a terrible starting point. But IIRC it was jeff that started that one (I think... not even worth a look though) and it caught the eye of those at the den.

It's the only thing that caught their eye.  As a group, they have engaged in almost no other discussion.

In this particular case, the topic is broader. I see no reason to assume it's about something the participants claim it isn't about.

Perhaps, but I have been burned too often giving the benefit of the doubt.  I won't castigate you for your choice, but we will simply have to disagree about the matter.

[Doom]

What, exactly, is super human?  Be specific.  What particular action that the fighter does is beyond human ability?

Indeed, Conan wrestled an iron golem, eventually defeating it with a magical dagger.

It's what fighters do.

[MGuy]

Yes. My issue with 3E rogue is many fold. But being able to make a character bad at combat and always having that class be bad in combat are not the same thing.

So you only feel good when a rogue can never be good at combat? That is a pretty hard kick in the nuts for assassin types.

I think there is a fudamental divide on the power of resource management to balance. I think if a class can be as good as a rogue or fighter but only once or twice a day through use of specific spells, it isnt a big problem. I think you can also give one class smething that outshines others so long as its weighted with anegative (long casting time, inherent danger of use etc). These can all make the game more balanced imo.

I don't disagree with you.

The thing is that many of the iconic fantasy monsters can fly. The reason it's a big deal for mythic heros to slay a dragon is that it's a giant flying firebreathing lizard that's not supposed to be a fair fight for some shumck with a fancy sword. The problem is that a leveling system posits that this will be fair fight to a badass enough fighter. You can't say "I want to be able to slay a multi-ton armor plated deathlizard that is capable of terrorizing an entire nation with a sword and bow while still being totally within the bounds of a normal human being" it just doesn't work.

After over 9000 posts and several new threads how should the hero with a sword be able to fight the dragon burninating the countryside and/or peasants. Should he be able to ride out on his horse and challenge it one on one or should he regardless of level have to get blinged up with magic items until he glows or have to sneak into it's lair like a coward an cut it's throat while it's sleeping.

Dude this is a "denner" you're talking to. You know I'm cool with fighters being able to jump up to that flying lizard and use his "sword cuts mountain" bankai form sword technique on the dragon. All I'm saying is there should be more than just "give everybody flight" as an option to deal with flying threats and airborne adventures.

A fighter who cant fly taking on a dragon that can is iconic. Without fly characters have to do stuff like lure the animal into a trap, set up waves of arrows or even catapults to drop it, wrangle it with ropes to hinder its flying etc. I a not seeing why the existence of flying dragons means fighters must also be able to do stuff like fly.

I think you just want weeabo and you are trying to prove others should as well. I have played countless rpgs with flying dragons and non flying fighters and it has never once been a problem for me or anyone at the table. So i see no reason to adopt your preference as a universal rule her.

If this is an issue, as mguy points out, make sure there are ways to disrupt flight in the game.

First off I agree with he main thrust of this as I just said but I would like to note that there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting anime like action in a game. BESM is a thing.

The reason the fighter class (and to a lesser extent the rogue) fails to keep up in so many games is that any suggestion that if a fighter of Xth level is capable of anything that is impossible for a normal human the model train enthusiasts come out and scream their denial.

So I want everyone to think long and hard on this one. If you keep asking the designers "I want to kill a city bus sized armored firebreathing death-lizard with my sword while still being totally within the realistic capabilities of an ordinary human" your never going to get that, ever.

Listen I have no interest in a game where some classes are capable of whatever because they have the (Su) tag while others can't have anything that the model train enthusiasts wont swallow.

Yeap.This is why I'm not going to have a class named "fighter" in my game. Despite my previous disbelief at this notion it has been pretty strongly supported here.

Having an answer to flight =/= having flight.

Ranged attacks allow non-flyers to contribute to combats with flight. As long as these dragons don't have range greater than arrows they can be killed by characters of mundane capability (so long as they have sufficient combat stats). This is more of a monster design thing than a class design thing anyway, though if you expect PvP or PC-built-NPCs, limiting the range on flying class capabilities would work well.

"Everyone needs flight past level x" is just kind of stupid and narrows the band of classes the game can handle pretty severely.

Yeap.

As I already point out to you in the other thread, 3e mage hand only lets you lift something of five pounds or less. That's not enough force to open a "stuck or heavy door," which is what the fighter's usually the best at by virtue of having the highest Strength score in the party.

You were wrong about this the first time you brought it up, too.

So you're going to skip over the part where I asked him to clarify "again"? More importantly are you defending the "fighter = official door opener" contribution case?

So here the disparity was fixed because of a magic sword.

Or are we saying a 9th level figther without a magic sword could beat an iron golem....

I brought this up at length but yea this all day.

[Black Vulmea]

So you're going to skip over the part where I asked him to clarify "again"? More importantly are you defending the "fighter = official door opener" contribution case?

I'm not defending anything. There's nothing to clarify.

I'm simply pointing out that you're wrong about how mage hand works.

[MGuy]

I'm not defending anything. There's nothing to clarify.

I'm simply pointing out that you're wrong about how mage hand works.

Only wrong if the door is somehow stuck. I "can" open a door with mage hand barring bullshit. In what way was I wrong since he did not clarify?

[Black Vulmea]

Only wrong if the door is somehow stuck. I "can" open a door with mage hand barring bullshit. In what way was I wrong since he did not clarify?

When the 'grognards' are talking about fighters opening doors, they're talking about the fact that dungeon doors are often treated as "stuck or heavy," and require an Open Doors roll as described under the Strength attribute in 1e - I'm sorry, but I'm on my laptop right now, and I don't have my pdfs to quote the relevant sections for you.

Mage hand allows you to pick up bread or apples or small rocks - maybe even a little duck - not force open an iron-bound oak door that's swelled due to soaking up subterranean moisture. That, however, is exactly what the Open Doors roll is for.

Mage hand will also not allow you to bend the bars of an iron portcullis or break a pair of manacles, both of which a high Strength can accomplish, without allocating a spell slot.

[StormBringer]

Only wrong if the door is somehow stuck. I "can" open a door with mage hand barring bullshit. In what way was I wrong since he did not clarify?

Mage Hand
Level:    Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components:    V, S
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:    One nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb.
Duration:    Concentration
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No
You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though  the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds  the spell's range.

A door is neither unattended nor weighs five pounds or less.  Do you even read the spells you argue about, Grand Master of Logic?

[MGuy]

When the 'grognards' are talking about fighters opening doors, they're talking about the fact that dungeon doors are often treated as "stuck or heavy," and require an Open Doors roll as described under the Strength attribute in 1e - I'm sorry, but I'm on my laptop right now, and I don't have my pdfs to quote the relevant sections for you.

Mage hand allows you to pick up bread or apples or small rocks - maybe even a little duck - not force open an iron-bound oak door that's swelled due to soaking up subterranean moisture. That, however, is exactly what the Open Doors roll is for.

Mage hand will also not allow you to bend the bars of an iron portcullis or break a pair of manacles, both of which a high Strength can accomplish, without allocating a spell slot.

All things not specified when I asked him to clarify.

[Marleycat]

Mage Hand
Level:    Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components:    V, S
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:    One nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb.
Duration:    Concentration
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No
You point your finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though  the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds  the spell’s range.

A door is neither unattended nor weighs five pounds or less.  Do you even read the spells you argue about, Grand Master of Logic?

Stormie you almost had me interested with whatever bullshit this thread may be pretending to be about because you mentioned football.  Just get your terms right ok? Lord Miatborn, heads up... you listening?  Ok? I have decided since you are completely stupid I may just lurk here to troll you for entertainment while football is on.

[Marleycat]

Just heads up guys.  More likely I won't care to even come and post until January* but you never know.  And I am disappointed with the current threads on this site.

*Trolling Lord Mistborn when I'm bored is the exception.