The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[Lord Mistborn]

In my campaigns i dont do things to let the players keep up with each other. The fighter ends up with whatever magic items he can manage to find or track down. Some fighters exceed others because of this, some fall below. Same for other classes though. Magic items are always potential game changers.

At a certain point a fighter without at least +x weapons will be hard pressed to face certain challenges. Dont see this as an issue or as a reaosn to embed their magical effects into the class itself.

Please don't remind me about pre-3.5 DR it's painful.

There is a difference between needing items to keep up with the numbers, needing items to have any hope of lateral advancement, and magic items being nice. For a wizard Winged Boots or a Cape of the Mountebank are like having an extra spell slot, for a fighter those items can be the difference between contributing and being useless.

[Bedrockbrendan]

Please don't remind me about pre-3.5 DR it's painful.

There is a difference between needing items to keep up with the numbers, needing items to have any hope of lateral advancement, and magic items being nice. For a wizard Winged Boots or a Cape of the Mountebank are like having an extra spell slot, for a fighter those items can be the difference between contributing and being useless.

As I said, these are all things we have covered before. If you like having the same discussion over and over feel free, but this thread is very quickly losing any interest it may have held for me.

[crkrueger]

To quote Wikipedia, [Citation_needed]

You need to PROVE what you say. With ARGUMENTS and LOGIC (or citations). Which so far you've never really done in this thread, since all you seem to do is state things assertively without bothering to provide actual arguments to support the veracity of your claims. And that just doesn't fly.

It's a TGD thing.  When they're not talking about actual math numbers, they toss off broad statements casually as if they were absolute proven fact.  It comes from spending too much time in the echo chamber.  They don't realize that these things they say are not facts.

[Lord Mistborn]

As I said, these are all things we have covered before. If you like having the same discussion over and over feel free, but this thread is very quickly losing any interest it may have held for me.

Once again I don't have magic mind powers that make you read or post in this thread. If you have no interest in this discussion than don't read or post in this thread.

It's a TGD thing.  When they're not talking about actual math numbers, they toss off broad statements casually as if they were absolute proven fact.  It comes from spending too much time in the echo chamber.  They don't realize that these things they say are not facts.

If you think we're wrong then by all mean step up and join in on the debate.

[Rum Cove]

Wizard vs. Fighter Balance Thread

[Lord Mistborn]

And now it's time for an open letter to Rum Cove and Marleycat.

Hello, both of you have landed yourselves on LM's ignore list. Why is that? It's because you never seem to post anything worth reading. You two don't add anything to the discussion with your vapid me-tooism and I don't think the grognards appreciate it either. It's this sort of circlejerking that turned StomBringer Sacrosanct and Benoist into the dysfunctional posters they are.

So one more time things LM wants to see in his threads
-debate

things LM doesn't want to see in his threads
-trolling
-me-tooism
-Strom and Kaelik/MGuy's continuing bitchfest from the Bone Devil thread
-passive aggressive bullshit (fortunately gleichman knows well enough to keep out of this thread.)
-Sacrosanct still being butthurt about me calling him names.

In exchange I'll stop bringing up how awful you people are

Deal?

[LordVreeg]

And now it's time for an open letter to Rum Cove and Marleycat.

Hello, both of you have landed yourselves on LM's ignore list. Why is that? It's because you never seem to post anything worth reading. You two don't add anything to the discussion with your vapid me-tooism and I don't think the grognards appreciate it either. It's this sort of circlejerking that turned StomBringer Sacrosanct and Benoist into the dysfunctional posters they are.

So one more time things LM wants to see in his threads
-debate

things LM doesn't want to see in his threads
-trolling
-me-tooism
-Strom and Kaelik/MGuy's continuing bitchfest from the Bone Devil thread
-passive aggressive bullshit (fortunately gleichman knows well enough to keep out of this thread.)
-Sacrosanct still being butthurt about me calling him names.

In exchange I'll stop bringing up how awful you people are

Deal.

One wonders if it is worth the effort, and moreover, if there would be many people left to post with said conditions in place.

[Sacrosanct]

One wonders if it is worth the effort,

It's not.  He's one of the most disingenuous people I've ever seen online, and seeing as how most of my points of reference are TPB and SA, that says a lot.

At this point, I'm wondering just how many more times he'll say some stupid and incorrect statement, have someone point out how and why he's wrong, just to have him completely ignore it and say, "If I'm wrong join the debate instead of being all meany to me."

The levels of his hypocrisy truly are astounding.  At this point I am beginning to seriously think that after everyone else decides to ignore him rather than continue to point out his errors, he'll get to the point where he'll claim victory.  

"No one has disagreed with me so I'm right!"  When it's less "no one disagrees with me" and more "we're all just tired of pointing out the same thing over and over again."

I'm guessing that traffic is pretty light over at TGD, so that's why he's here.

[Lord Mistborn]

You can post the same argument as many times as you want, it doesn't make the argument any less wrong.

[Sacrosanct]

On cue, irony overload.

[Rum Cove]

I do question how old some posters are.

[Bedrockbrendan]

are.

So one more time things LM wants to see in his threads
-debate

things LM doesn't want to see in his threads
-trolling
-me-tooism
-Strom and Kaelik/MGuy's continuing bitchfest from the Bone Devil thread
-passive aggressive bullshit (fortunately gleichman knows well enough to keep out of this thread.)
-Sacrosanct still being butthurt about me calling him names.
?

Are you for real?

[Rum Cove]

I learned two things from this thread:

1) Player Empowerment extends to Forum Entitlement.
2) BedrockBrendan has the patience of a Saint.

Does this post count as a "me-tooism"?

[Lord Mistborn]

Well it's time for another long LM post that everyone will ignore.

Grognards of all people should not be preaching magic items as a way for fighters to get their lateral advancement. The odds of having something off the random treasure charts that you need in an encounter are vanishingly small, smaller than the wizard or cleric having the proper utility spell. You can say it's your personal preference that fighters rely on items but don't say that's game balance. It's not.

If one class relies on magic items more than another class then the balance between those classes will be harder to maintain than if this was not the case. Once again this is A=A people.

If the class A is far weaker than class B at level 1 and far stronger at level 10. then at those points one class is weaker and the other class is stronger and the classes are not balanced. Once again A=A.

If there is a problem with the rules ignoring the rules does not mean that there is not a problem in the rules. It means you're ignoring the rules. A=A

Having hands and the ability to bullshit the DM is not a replacement for class features. If it's part of your play-style that's fine but it can't take the place of having class features, everyone can bullshit the DM and some people have stuff like Illusions than only open more horizons for "player creativity". A=A

A=A is not disputable, now in the future I may declare A+B=C which is a point that can be disputed and debated. Some people probably have no interest in a balanced game, they don't need to be part of the class balance thread. Some people may want to balance the game in a different way and I will disagree with them but I still welcome they're comments.

Actual class balancing coming next post to hopefully move away from edition war nonsense.

[StormBringer]

Actual class balancing coming next post to hopefully move away from edition war nonsense.

It would probably be helpful if you first demonstrate an imbalance, and then demonstrate that it needs to be corrected.