The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[Bedrockbrendan]

You are right that Comp Languages is reading not speaking so most of the old school examples are moot.
).

Comprehend languages in 2e lets you understand written or spoken words. But it doesn't let you communicate in the language by writing or word.

[Bedrockbrendan]

This is D&D friend where you need to set people on fire far more often then you need to understand what they are saying.

So you have never had an urban adventure in D&D? You have never had to understand what people are saying in a land that speaks different languages than you in D&D?

D&D isnt just about hacking and casting fireball. If you think it is, then you have been missing all kinds of exciting possibilities.

[Lord Mistborn]

So you have never had an urban adventure in D&D? You have never had to understand what people are saying in a land that speaks different languages than you in D&D?

D&D isnt just about hacking and casting fireball. If you think it is, then you have been missing all kinds of exciting possibilities.

That was a joke do I need to use smileys every time I'm being facetious

[jibbajibba]

Comprehend languages in 2e lets you understand written or spoken words. But it doesn't let you communicate in the language by writing or word.

Yes its changes in 2e probably becuase the 1e version was too weak Its arguable that the 2e nerfed version is also too weak and that allowing communication wouldn't be too tough.

still great for codes though

You can compare it to the weakest ever X-man Cypher who's power was to understand all languages. In a team with plenty of telepaths and few geniuses this wasn't exactly a level 5 mutation....

[Bedrockbrendan]

Yes its changes in 2e probably becuase the 1e version was too weak Its arguable that the 2e nerfed version is also too weak and that allowing communication wouldn't be too tough.

still great for codes though

You can compare it to the weakest ever X-man Cypher who's power was to understand all languages. In a team with plenty of telepaths and few geniuses this wasn't exactly a level 5 mutation....

It is a first level spell and often came in handy at my table. There are other handy first level spells to choose from and often the best choice is determined by the situation you face. I really dont see an issue with comprehend languages. I have memorized it plenty of times over other choices.

[jibbajibba]

It is a first level spell and often came in handy at my table. There are other handy first level spells to choose from and often the best choice is determined by the situation you face. I really dont see an issue with comprehend languages. I have memorized it plenty of times over other choices.

I agree I am just saying they bumped it up in 2e becuase the designers thought it was too weak and I don;t think it woudl have broken the spell if it allowed 2 way communication....

And the 2e wouldn't let the Party in the B/E kobold example talk to the kobolds either so all the OSR usage ideas don't fly. The fact they everyone thought it did is indication that the spell could allow communication and not cause power disparity issues.
Tongues does do this but its a 3rd level Wizard or 4th level Clerical spell and it has a duration of 10 minutes and I would say that is a weak spell compared to of similar level. Doesn't mean I woudln't select it of course just means its weak.

[Bedrockbrendan]

I agree I am just saying they bumped it up in 2e becuase the designers thought it was too weak and I don;t think it woudl have broken the spell if it allowed 2 way communication....

And the 2e wouldn't let the Party in the B/E kobold example talk to the kobolds either so all the OSR usage ideas don't fly. The fact they everyone thought it did is indication that the spell could allow communication and not cause power disparity issues.
Tongues does do this but its a 3rd level Wizard or 4th level Clerical spell and it has a duration of 10 minutes and I would say that is a weak spell compared to of similar level. Doesn't mean I woudln't select it of course just means its weak.

I may be stingy, but I actually think preventing two way communication for a 1st level spell and saving it for the 3rd level spell is a good idea. Being able to understand your enemies and characters you interact with can be very important (not to mention being able to translate inctercepted communications). That feels like an appropriate level of power for a first level spell. But that is a judgement call I suppose.

[deadDMwalking]

All utility spells basically suffer from the same general problem - if you don't know if you'll need it, you might be wasting your precious spell slots.  If you have the reasonable expectation that they'll be helpful, it's worth preparing them.  But in terms of preparing them, they tend to fill slots that seldom see use for other purposes.  Ie, when you have 7th level spells, a 2nd or 3rd level 'utility slot' might be used, but if 3rd is your highest level?  Not nearly as often.  

Utility spells are shortcuts, but they usually make things easier for the party - but they can usually be replicated by mundane means given enough time and effort.  Ie, if you really need to read the book, you can take it to a specialist or prepare comprehend languages the next day.  

One thing that I'm about to try in a 3.x game is allowing a Wizard to cast any prepared spell based on their total number of spell slots.  Ie, if you have 3 3rd levels spells a day, you could prepare fireball, tongues, and fly.  You could cast each spell once; cast fireball 3 times, or any combination as long as you don't exceed your maximum of three 3rd level spells per day.  The hope here is that utility spells will be prepared more often (Sorcerers get other things to make them still viable).  I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes - but the point still remains - a spell can make the game go in interesting directions, but if you don't have the spell the game will continue in different interesting directions, so you don't really lose anything by never using them.  Other than some experiences that you might have enjoyed.  But if you're having fun anyway, well, it doesn't really matter.

[jibbajibba]

I may be stingy, but I actually think preventing two way communication for a 1st level spell and saving it for the 3rd level spell is a good idea. Being able to understand your enemies and characters you interact with can be very important (not to mention being able to translate inctercepted communications). That feels like an appropriate level of power for a first level spell. But that is a judgement call I suppose.

First off I was wrong about 1e version I pulled my books andreading it back its hte same as well I am gettign old
It doesn't stack up well to other spells though. ESP is a 2nd level Magic user spell. So at 2nd level I can understand what you are thinking but I can only communicate with you at 3rd level via a spoken language.. And I am not comparing it to the slew of defense/offense/explor options.

You can see the comments of other players. The Min/max crew won't even give it the time of day as a 1st level spell that allowed them to talk to other creatures everyone else assumed it did....
I conceed it has a nice world depth to it. I conceed that it is a nice flavourful spell (though it ought to be renamed to Larimores Lazy Lexicon or Lairtes Langid Linguist )  and that making language relevant is a nice idea but I can't see why it couldn't allow 2 way communication and still not be too tough.

[LordVreeg]

This is D&D friend where you need to set people on fire far more often then you need to understand what they are saying.

depends on the game you run.
Not my games.  The fighters handle the beatings, the mages are often the ones who solved the real problems that the guys with armor could not.

[Bedrockbrendan]

Deaddm i memorize utility spells all the time. So do many of my players. Using utility spells is a lot more fun in my opinion than lobbing a lightning bolt or fireball. Sometimes you memorize spells that you dont have much use for in the course of the day, sometimes they pay dividends. A large part of the enjoyment comes from trying to gauge that and memorizing the spells you thini will come in handy. If you dont like stuff like tongues or comprehend languages, that is fine, but I am really not buying to attempt to prove these spells are no good or not as useful. It all depends on what you end up facing in the course of the day. Personally I like having a good selection of tools to draw on, and as a wizard one way to do that is memorize a large variety of spells, many of which may or may not be needed.

[Bedrockbrendan]

First off I was wrong about 1e version I pulled my books andreading it back its hte same as well I am gettign old
It doesn't stack up well to other spells though. ESP is a 2nd level Magic user spell. So at 2nd level I can understand what you are thinking but I can only communicate with you at 3rd level via a spoken language.. And I am not comparing it to the slew of defense/offense/explor options.

You can see the comments of other players. The Min/max crew won't even give it the time of day as a 1st level spell that allowed them to talk to other creatures everyone else assumed it did....
I conceed it has a nice world depth to it. I conceed that it is a nice flavourful spell (though it ought to be renamed to Larimores Lazy Lexicon or Lairtes Langid Linguist )  and that making language relevant is a nice idea but I can't see why it couldn't allow 2 way communication and still not be too tough.

I think we just disagree on the issue, which is fine since it is largely a matter of judgment. I can see the argument but think it is fine as is (there are spells I would change but this isnt one of them).

As to the min/max crowd, I am not all that concerned about converting them to my way of thinking on the issue. In my own games, spells like this are a lot of fun. For me that is all that matters.

[LordVreeg]

Deaddm i memorize utility spells all the time. So do many of my players. Using utility spells is a lot more fun in my opinion than lobbing a lightning bolt or fireball. Sometimes you memorize spells that you dont have much use for in the course of the day, sometimes they pay dividends. A large part of the enjoyment comes from trying to gauge that and memorizing the spells you thini will come in handy. If you dont like stuff like tongues or comprehend languages, that is fine, but I am really not buying to attempt to prove these spells are no good or not as useful. It all depends on what you end up facing in the course of the day. Personally I like having a good selection of tools to draw on, and as a wizard one way to do that is memorize a large variety of spells, many of which may or may not be needed.

it all depends, frankly, on context.  IN 75% of my games, memorizing too many combat spells emans the group won't get anywhere.  The guys with the armor are supposed to handle that.  that is what they are there for.

[StormBringer]

Listen we can argue the merits of combat and noncombat spells just like we can argue chocolate vs peanut butter. However why are you fighting so hard against acknowledging the delicious chocolate peanut butter cup that is Silent Image a spell that is just as good out of combat as it is in combat.

I'm not actually the one being disagreeable.

[StormBringer]

First, assume that you have some kind of 'plot' - not necessarily a railroady kind of plot, but some kind of adventure.  The PCs are trying to accomplish something.  You can consider any and every published module you've ever seen.  

None of which required any particular spell, nor did any of them actually require a spell caster.

But you know what?  It doesn't stop the adventure.  The adventure does not presume that you'll have access to the language of the potential friend nor does it presume that you have comprehend languages.  As a result, the adventure can continue just fine even if you don't have the spell.  The adventure is designed with the assumption that you won't be able to speak to the enemies or they speak common anyways if negotiation is supposed to be the 'one way to succeed'.  

There are other situations, however, where combat is the only way to proceed.  If your mission is to kill the evil demon summoner, you will have to kill him.  Combat spells may be needed to advance the plot (ie, accomplish what you need to accomplish).  A utility spell, while it can provide a useful shortcut, is never assumed to be the solution, and as such, you can continue the adventure just fine without ever using them.

Not only is that wrong, but they are contradictory.  You will need to pick one of those paragraphs or the other.  Either some particular action will stop the adventure or it will not.  If there is only one solution to a particular problem, we are talking about a railroad plot that you assured us wasn't present a couple of paragraphs ago.  You think combat is awesome and the only part worth using, and can't imagine a scenario with out it.  Welcome to the railroad, because that is no different than requiring a spell caster with access to web to cross some chasm.