The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[Lord Mistborn]

Only for a very narrow style of play that assumes classes should be tuned for combat.

No he's totally right. Comp. languages does something easily replicated by mundane means so it's low on the list of spell you want to prepare. Jump on the other hand leans on a skill and isn't usefull in many situations. Wizards can only prepare a limited number of spells Fireball and Sleep are combat spells yes but unless you're playing a very nonstandard game you always prepare mostly combat spells anyway. If there is a something that needs jumping across or languages that need to be comprehended you'll be wanting a spell for that but you won't usually die if you don't have it. If you need combat spells and you do not have any then you die.

Not only that but there are a metric ton of spells that have uses both in and out of combat. Invis. and Fly let you both bypass encounters but also gain an advantage in them a well. We haven't even brought up the king of spells Silent Image. 3e illusions are weaker than their 2e counterparts and they still get tons use. People don't just pass on Comp. languages and Jump because they are bad but because they compete with spells whose only limitation is that players imagination.

[StormBringer]

No he's totally right.

No, he's not, and you are both wrong for the same reason; there is more to D&D specifically and RPGs generally than combat.

Comprehend languages is not 'easily replicated by mundane means', because there are no mundane means to understand every language in a game world, unless you have them limited to Common and Orcish.  Just making that statement shows you aren't really thinking about what you are typing.

...they compete with spells whose only limitation is that players imagination.

The only limitation for any spell is the player's imagination.  Try being a bit more creative with spells before writing them off as useless because they don't have a combat function.

[Lord Mistborn]

No, he's not, and you are both wrong for the same reason; there is more to D&D specifically and RPGs generally than combat.

Comprehend languages is not 'easily replicated by mundane means', because there are no mundane means to understand every language in a game world, unless you have them limited to Common and Orcish.  Just making that statement shows you aren't really thinking about what you are typing.


The only limitation for any spell is the player's imagination.  Try being a bit more creative with spells before writing them off as useless because they don't have a combat function.

I'm not knocking Comp. languages for being a non-combat spell. I'm knocking it for being a narrow noncombat spell. If I'm a 2e Wizard with my 4 spell slots why should one of them be Comp. languages rather than Phantasmal Force (2e Silent Image), Sleep, or Charm Person or another more versatile spell. Everyone with 9 or better Int gets another language so I'm thinking that things will need to be Charmed or I'll get to Illusion creatively far more often than nobody can understand what the monster is babbling about (and we care).

[StormBringer]

I'm not knocking Comp. languages for being a non-combat spell. I'm knocking it for being a narrow noncombat spell. If I'm a 2e Wizard with my 4 spell slots why should one of them be Comp. languages rather than Phantasmal Force (2e Silent Image), Sleep, or Charm Person or another more versatile spell. Everyone with 9 or better Int gets another language so I'm thinking that things will need to be Charmed or I'll get to Illusion creatively far more often than nobody can understand what the monster is babbling about (and we care).

Sleep is no less narrow than Comprehend Languages, and without the latter spell, good luck talking to that Svirfneblin you just charmed.  What?  You don't speak Deep Gnome?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Besides, how are you supposed to outshine the Thief and their Read Language skill without Comprehend Language?

[Lord Mistborn]

Sleep is no less narrow than Comprehend Languages, and without the latter spell, good luck talking to that Svirfneblin you just charmed.  What?  You don't speak Deep Gnome?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Besides, how are you supposed to outshine the Thief and their Read Language skill without Comprehend Language?

I'm not saying that CompLang is useless it's just that it's use tends to come up less and if the party thief has a skill for it then why do I need the spell again, this only gives me more reason to prepare Silent Image.

Listen we can argue the merits of combat and noncombat spells just like we can argue chocolate vs peanut butter. However why are you fighting so hard against acknowledging the delicious chocolate peanut butter cup that is Silent Image a spell that is just as good out of combat as it is in combat.

[deadDMwalking]

Stormbringer,

I'm going to try to explain things in a different way.  Lord Mistborn has trouble expressing himself, and while Mguy's posts are really clear to me, his intent seems opaque to the rest of the board.  

First, assume that you have some kind of 'plot' - not necessarily a railroady kind of plot, but some kind of adventure.  The PCs are trying to accomplish something.  You can consider any and every published module you've ever seen.  

Now, in that adventure, there are times when it would be useful to know comprehend languages.  It can make the adventure much easier by letting you turn a potential enemy into a potential friend by talking to them.  However, if the party is fairly Intelligent (has access to additional languages) and diversified, the number of languages they won't know may be very small.  But assuming that none of the PCs you've had know any of the common languages that their adversaries may speak, imagine that you have comprehend languages.  That just made the adventure easier.  Good for you.

Now, imagine that you don't have comprehend languages.  Either it is not one of the small number of spells the wizard knows, or if he does know it, he decided not to prepare it on this particular day.  

Now you can't talk to the potential friend.  

What happens now?  

Either you manage to succeed in communicating using hand signals or you end up fighting them and the adventure is harder.

But you know what?  It doesn't stop the adventure.  The adventure does not presume that you'll have access to the language of the potential friend nor does it presume that you have comprehend languages.  As a result, the adventure can continue just fine even if you don't have the spell.  The adventure is designed with the assumption that you won't be able to speak to the enemies or they speak common anyways if negotiation is supposed to be the 'one way to succeed'.  

There are other situations, however, where combat is the only way to proceed.  If your mission is to kill the evil demon summoner, you will have to kill him.  Combat spells may be needed to advance the plot (ie, accomplish what you need to accomplish).  A utility spell, while it can provide a useful shortcut, is never assumed to be the solution, and as such, you can continue the adventure just fine without ever using them.

[Bedrockbrendan]

I'm not knocking Comp. languages for being a non-combat spell. I'm knocking it for being a narrow noncombat spell. If I'm a 2e Wizard with my 4 spell slots why should one of them be Comp. languages rather than Phantasmal Force (2e Silent Image), Sleep, or Charm Person or another more versatile spell. Everyone with 9 or better Int gets another language so I'm thinking that things will need to be Charmed or I'll get to Illusion creatively far more often than nobody can understand what the monster is babbling about (and we care).

Because understanding people who speak other languages could save your characters lives or make getting what you need to survive/travel/find a way home/buy stuff/undertsand an opponent/etc that much easier. It is a very useful spell, especially if you are not just hacking everything that moves and the GM pays the slightest attention to stuff like languages.

[jibbajibba]

Yes, lots of this.
And I went to a skill-based system years ago where about 30% of experience is gotten for defeating difficulties (traps, monsters, situations), 40% is from skill use (you defended 9 hits, that's 27 exp in protection skills; you cast 'Adept's Heal', take 3 exp per SP cast in that spell type, and distribute 5 more per HP healed among the same spell types, you used basic social or a sub of basic social to ascertain what guilds the magistrate's family is indebted to, take 85 exp in social skills used, or you took 10 points of damage, gain 100 exp in HP), 30% is roleplay bonus and quest/achievement bonus.

There is a lot behind this, but players 'become what they play',  and they can gain as much experience in avoiding combats and social encounters and achievements as they do in combat.

So in Amber I started to use a different XP system. I mentioned it above. the PCs set 3 objectives , their own personal ones. Become chamberlain of Amber, attune myself to the jewel of judgement, Discover relationship with Fiona.
Each of those then gets an XP reward.
In addition to this I have a plot. The plot has a load of similarly sized things worth similar Xp values (in Amber these are 1-5 points).
The PCs can follow their own objectives and get XP and as they achieve one they can add another. If they pursue the plot , which is more a web of interlinked plots than a linear one they can get Xp.

So I have been trying to port this to D&D. It's tricky because you want to avoid railroading but that is what the personal stuff is for. Its also tricky because there is a feeling, strengthened by CRPGs that you use a skill and get points for it. So in Skyrim everytime you use your sword your sword skill can get better. This is where the move from 1e collecting gold moved to the 2e xp for using your skills comes from its kind of the most intuitive way to do XP. The book-keeping is a chore though. Rewarding achivement is an alternate choice. Its easy in Amber as experience counts for only so much when you can go and train in one combat move for 4 years at almost no cost to yourself bar boredom. Much harder to get a workable model for D&D.

[jibbajibba]

Because understanding people who speak other languages could save your characters lives or make getting what you need to survive/travel/find a way home/buy stuff/undertsand an opponent/etc that much easier. It is a very useful spell, especially if you are not just hacking everything that moves and the GM pays the slightest attention to stuff like languages.

Of course in 2e and 1e you might not have that much choice.

If the options are 2 from comp lang, read magic, erase, light and ventrioquism ....

[Lord Mistborn]

Of course in 2e and 1e you might not have that much choice.

If the options are 2 from comp lang, read magic, erase, light and ventrioquism ....

You forgot Silent Image/Phantasmal Force.

Not only that but Complang doesn't even let you speak to people so I don't thing it helps in Storm's example now that I think about it.

[deadDMwalking]

Put another way -

Despite the accusation that the 'denners' believe that every wizard will have every spell available to them at all times (they don't - they just believe that a normal wizard will have a handful of useful spells, some examples of which they typically provide), that is not something adventures assume.  

If a spell is required to 'win' the adventure (ie, you must fly up to the ledge or you must use speak languages to convince someone that you're friendly, etc), it's bad adventure design.  Many groups will never be able to succeed because they don't have the right spell or they don't have it prepared.  

Therefore, while the spell in question might make the adventure easier. there MUST be another way to 'win' (even if it takes more work) without using a particular spell.

Don't have 'fly'?  Use ropes, grappling hooks, and pitons.  

Don't have 'speak language'?  Figure out if you have any common languages.  Maybe the elf knows gnome and one of the goblins knows gnome, too.  So the elf translates what the party leader says into gnome and the goblin translates it from gnome to goblin - is that likely to cause problems?  Yes, but the adventure continues.

[jibbajibba]

Put another way -

Despite the accusation that the 'denners' believe that every wizard will have every spell available to them at all times (they don't - they just believe that a normal wizard will have a handful of useful spells, some examples of which they typically provide), that is not something adventures assume.  

If a spell is required to 'win' the adventure (ie, you must fly up to the ledge or you must use speak languages to convince someone that you're friendly, etc), it's bad adventure design.  Many groups will never be able to succeed because they don't have the right spell or they don't have it prepared.  

Therefore, while the spell in question might make the adventure easier. there MUST be another way to 'win' (even if it takes more work) without using a particular spell.

Don't have 'fly'?  Use ropes, grappling hooks, and pitons.  

Don't have 'speak language'?  Figure out if you have any common languages.  Maybe the elf knows gnome and one of the goblins knows gnome, too.  So the elf translates what the party leader says into gnome and the goblin translates it from gnome to goblin - is that likely to cause problems?  Yes, but the adventure continues.

In a plot led game you are right. If the game requires a mcguffin, even if that is a speak with this guy mcguffin or a get to that hanging cage in the middle of the cavrn mcguffin then you need to have alternates becuase you can't let the game stop because of the lack of a particualr spell, item etc

However, in sandbox play there is no plot, the plot develops from the game. the Party encounter a group of Bugbears because they visit the Gris Chasm, or even because the DM rolls a random encounter with Bugbears. There is no longer term reason. If they can't talk to the old man chained up in the Bugbears cave then they don't learn about the lost city that lies beneath. But instead of that adventure ending they just leave and go somewhere else instead.
Now that sort of Sandbox is uncommon. Most DMs don't design a lost city under a mountain and then accept gleefully that the PCs will never find it. They find a way to reintroduce it.
However that is the principle behind the idea so ...

[jibbajibba]

You forgot Silent Image/Phantasmal Force.

Not only that but Complang doesn't even let you speak to people so I don't thing it helps in Storm's example now that I think about it.

You are right that Comp Languages is reading not speaking so most of the old school examples are moot.
I didn't forget Silent image ... the PC doesn't have the spell these are the only 1st level spells in their book. this is not uncommon in older D&D.

But As I noted above the reverse of comp languages makes an excellent unbreakable code (well mundanely unbreakable).

[Bedrockbrendan]

I dont think we run the same kinds of adventures, but even so what you say is akso true of combat spells. By your standard an adventure that requires burning hands to win is bad design. Lke burning hands comprehend languages is a tool that helps you overcome challenges. I assume not all your challenges are combat based (and i assume your adventures can include intrigue, politics and investigigation), so i am not seeing why comprehend languages would be a less valuable tool than burning hands. It depends on what your characters are doing of course. But i have seen comprehend language memorized and used to great effect in scenarios where burning hands would have been pointless to memorize.

[Lord Mistborn]

I dont think we run the same kinds of adventures, but even so what you say is akso true of combat spells. By your standard an adventure that requires burning hands to win is bad design. Lke burning hands comprehend languages is a tool that helps you overcome challenges. I assume not all your challenges are combat based (and i assume your adventures can include intrigue, politics and investigigation), so i am not seeing why comprehend languages would be a less valuable tool than burning hands. It depends on what your characters are doing of course. But i have seen comprehend language memorized and used to great effect in scenarios where burning hands would have been pointless to memorize.

This is D&D friend where you need to set people on fire far more often then you need to understand what they are saying.