Quote from: Sir Wulf;597249Your rules seemed to all be about limiting the players' options to establish your hypothesis that a party of "lower tier" classes would thrash about helplessly against the sort of foes that more potent classes would merely find dangerous (APL+1).  As such, a bone devil is the poster child for such troublesome encounters.

I honestly expect GC to pull out slightly less brutal foes, lest he be accused of inflicting encounters that would shred even a party of munchkin powergamers, much less a party of second-stringers.  Nonetheless, if you're ready to take on a bone devil, a dark stalker with assassin levels (deeper darkness at will: Ouch!), or a pyrohydra swimming in 30 ft. deep water, you're ready for anything.

The rules do not forbid Bone Devils. Whether or not I will do that, you will have to find out.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;597250Not really enough resources to cover everything, unfortunately. Invisibility is an issue (no bags of flour in the 3.5 phb, this is an outrage ; the party does have some AoO effects and bless weapon. At worst I can hope to dimensional anchor it, glue it to the floor, cast haste and leg it. But please, no giving the GM ideas - I'm very interested to see what's going to be put up.

The encounters were chosen before I even joined this board. And besides, I know the monster rules forwards and backwards. Safe to say I already know the threat lists.
 

QuoteNot addressed at me, but I had a quick look and did notice that the gnome has favoured class: rogue so as a Ranger3/Scout4/Barb1 it would have an xp penalty. GC did say 7th level start rather than a specified xp figure, but still I think bad practice. (I went with human for the warmage only due to favoured class, actully - otherwise I could have picked up psionics for free with any psionic race).

Why are you talking about level 8 characters?

Also worth noting since I mentioned this as a low tier counter before: The problem with the flour method is you need to know invisible foes are there. Since the whole point of being invisible is to strike when unexpected and get the surprise, by the time you're aware you should use it they already got what they came for and broke the Invis, besides. So it no longer grants any advantage.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597339Why are you talking about level 8 characters?

 
Ah, typo. Noobie's character build is actually a Ranger 2/Scout 4/Barbarian 1, not a Ranger 3/Scout 4/Barbarian 1 as I stated.
 

QuoteAlso worth noting since I mentioned this as a low tier counter before: The problem with the flour method is you need to know invisible foes are there. Since the whole point of being invisible is to strike when unexpected and get the surprise, by the time you're aware you should use it they already got what they came for and broke the Invis, besides. So it no longer grants any advantage.

Nah, the flour here is for improved invisible monsters and the like so the rogue get sneak attack despite concealment; there's a war dog with Scent there to pick up the things in the first place (and/or other party members with Listen).
I may need to consider what to do about a couple of specific case where neither will work, may have fiddle with the rogue a bit more.

I think it'd still have concealment even then. And let me just stop you right there and say if your plans depend upon a Rogue for success, consider them already failed. Unlike with the others I'm not intending to be harsh with you but Rogues are bad by bad class standards so that's just how it is.

Guess we'll see...I've made some adjustments to rogue class levels and equipment as noted in the 'edits' section (adding Crystal of Screening but had to drop Ring of Protection to pay for it; adjusted class level balance to Rogue4/Swash3 with appropriate adjustments to saves, skills and hit points since that grabs Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)...I've had characters surprise sexed by ghosts in the walls before.

At least you know how to deal with standard situations and scenarios. In before you are accused of being me (I think the list is up to a dozen distinct people that are all me now).

Have the both of you finalized your characters?

Aw, full up? I was going to put forward a Sorcerer Paladin (with max ranks in Craft(basket weaving) naturally).

EDIT: whoops, Sorcerers are "too powerful" I guess? Make that an Adept Paladin.

EDIT^2: Just realised his backstory would support a few rogue levels as well. This guy is awesome, I gotta work him in somewhere else if he can't make this game.

I'm finalized. Noobie, you still out there? Would still be good to have two lots of guys coming through.

I'm sorry. Real life got the jump on me. I'm more behind in making guys than I thought I would be. But I'll get back to it.

I'll try and have drafts of my healer and my warlock by tomorrow morning. I would like to have other people look at them before I declare full readiness though. Sir Wulf caught me out on a lot of mistakes on Poppy and Akali, and I am not anxious to submit other characters who are similarly flawed.

EDIT: Does anyone have a suggestion for a way to generate healing without actually running a "healer"? The main combat draw I see to the healer class is the faux-Delay Death and the cures-all-status spell whose name escapes me. I want to have these effects, but the healer will really not have anything else she can do.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598089Sir Wulf caught me out on a lot of mistakes on Poppy and Akali, and I am not anxious to submit other characters who are similarly flawed.

Don't be silly!  Your builds were more than solid enough for any normal game.  My suggestions were merely meant to ensure you were ready for as many different types of really brutal encounters as possible.  If you look in on my character for the Justin Alexander's "basketweavers" game, I disregarded some of my own advice.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598089EDIT: Does anyone have a suggestion for a way to generate healing without actually running a "healer"? The main combat draw I see to the healer class is the faux-Delay Death and the cures-all-status spell whose name escapes me. I want to have these effects, but the healer will really not have anything else she can do.

I'd suggest that you build your healer to also function as an archer.  She won't be as good as a dedicated archer, but should be able to inflict some damage in the first rounds, then switch to heal the line fighters when needed.

That other game hardly matters. We are talking about level 7s running a gimped level 1 adventure. If you're taking it seriously at all (rather than as something made just to troll me) you are doing it wrong.

Normal games typically follow one of these models:

1-2 good players carry the gimps.
Everyone is competent.

In this, you are restricted to incompetent parties.

In a normal game you could just have two of Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard duo everything and the others would seem fine if you didn't think about it.

This is actually a bit easier than a normal game, but even so you still have 0 capable and competent party members.

Alright, here is Soraka's basic sheet. She will keep my HPs at maximum and fight save-or-dies and burst damage with her nonsense. I have also updated Akali's sheet (here) to include your suggestions. She was originally also a dragonborn, but I decided I liked the whisper gnome raicla features more, and meant to give her a bow but forgot.
Warlock sheet and tweaks to Poppy, coming up!

EDIT: Here is Victor, team captain. I still need to spend all the party's remaining wealth on charged magic items for him; he's going to be a fake caster. Any suggestions for items? I am ABSOLUTELY sure about a wand of Tyche's Touch and a couple scrolls of Mass Conviction, but nothing else.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598196Alright, here is Soraka's basic sheet. She will keep my HPs at maximum and fight save-or-dies and burst damage with her nonsense. I have also updated Akali's sheet (here) to include your suggestions. She was originally also a dragonborn, but I decided I liked the whisper gnome raicla features more, and meant to give her a bow but forgot.
Warlock sheet and tweaks to Poppy, coming up!

EDIT: Here is Victor, team captain. I still need to spend all the party's remaining wealth on charged magic items for him; he's going to be a fake caster. Any suggestions for items? I am ABSOLUTELY sure about a wand of Tyche's Touch and a couple scrolls of Mass Conviction, but nothing else.

Um... are you sure about that? Check your first link.

I'd also like to remind you this is a Standard Adventuring Day, meaning stuff you do every day. Can you afford to spend more wealth than you gain every day? Or even most of what you earn? You are treating this like an arena fight.

Wow, I fail at copy-paste. Fixed now.

If you walk into any fight at this level without a bare minimum of +10 to all saves, you are asking--nay, begging--for death. Period. I don't think it's unreasonable to have the particular spells I mentioned in inventory. Having, say, 20000 gp of consumable spells and using them all is one thing, but having 5000 and planning to use only 500 gold or so...is that so wrong?

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598203Wow, I fail at copy-paste. Fixed now.

If you walk into any fight at this level without a bare minimum of +10 to all saves, you are asking--nay, begging--for death. Period. I don't think it's unreasonable to have the particular spells I mentioned in inventory. Having, say, 20000 gp of consumable spells and using them all is one thing, but having 5000 and planning to use only 500 gold or so...is that so wrong?

Some consumable use is fine, and you are absolutely right about the minimum stat requirements. However you mentioned a replacement caster - meaning every time you'd use a spell in standard D&D you'd use an overpriced, ineffective consumable instead (because most attack spells don't work well as wands and scrolls). And that'd result in you burning up thousands of gold per fight.

I forgot to mention the thing about consumable spam because honestly, I didn't think anyone was going to be smart enough here to even find that standard, but wrong tactic.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;598203Wow, I fail at copy-paste. Fixed now.

If you walk into any fight at this level without a bare minimum of +10 to all saves, you are asking--nay, begging--for death. Period. I don't think it's unreasonable to have the particular spells I mentioned in inventory. Having, say, 20000 gp of consumable spells and using them all is one thing, but having 5000 and planning to use only 500 gold or so...is that so wrong?

Low-end consumables cost very little compared to the characters' income, and keep you from tying up more valuable resources on utility funtions you'd only need once in a while.  You don't want to go hog wild with them, but I agree that they add significantly to each character's versatility.  I've especially favored 1st level wands and scrolls and alchemical items.  There's nothing more amusing than watching a foe's plans unravel because you hit him with a tanglefoot bag.