Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;596773I mean, the DMG actually has suggestions for how many encounters to throw at players and how tough they should be. it's a book that says 'if you want to run a game, we suggest doing these things.' The OP says he's going to do those things.

On the off-chance that this isn't just Mr. GC talking to himself: In another thread recently, Mr. GC claimed that, on average, an encounter in a SAD is one level higher than the APL. (Link)

You've obviously seen that table, so you know that isn't true.

So even if Mr. GC was intending to play fair, he's too incompetent to actually execute on that intention.

If he sends one encounter at me that is CR 8, I can understand that. If he sends four, I will be more than a little vexed. Like I said, I am interested in testing CR relative to certain classes...if he doesn't do that, well I suppose I get my D&D, but I don't get to test my IRL group's theory.

I appreciate your concern though. I will definitely be checking the CR of these encounters afterwards (during would be more cheateriffic than even I am willing to do).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596794On the off-chance that this isn't just Mr. GC talking to himself: In another thread recently, Mr. GC claimed that, on average, an encounter in a SAD is one level higher than the APL. (Link)

You've obviously seen that table, so you know that isn't true.

So even if Mr. GC was intending to play fair, he's too incompetent to actually execute on that intention.

If you have seen that table you know it looks something like this once you break it down by distribution (in 1/80ths):

-1 * 8.
0 * 40.
+1 * 7.
+2 * 7.
+3 * 7.
+4 * 7.
+5 * 4.

And when you average that all out you get 82/80, or +1.025 on average. Half might be even level but the significant number that are higher than this drag up the average. Not sure why I said 1.05 before either, but it floors to 1 either way so whatever.

Speaking of wrong, one other thing I actually was wrong about is that level +4 or higher encounters have a 13.75% occurrence. I forgot the "or higher" part.

So....in the interests of forwarding this thing to wherever its headed, I started building a party. I got bored halfway, but here are two characters to at least try to get things rolling.
 
The paladin acts as a sort of healer (since Cleric is barred its probably that or Healer, and this gives some combat abilities too - also, the intent is that she uses Goad or Shield Other to absorb attacks/damage that would otherwise be aimed at the other squishier party members), the rogue is meant to act as forward scout since there's no scrying, and does some stabbing as well of course.  A couple of competent ranged characters might be handy as well - neither of these guys can do much against flying monsters.
 
If Justin or Storm want to use any stats from here in the other thread they can, but I don't have the time to fully play the characters.

Ursla, shieldmaiden
 
Dwarf Fighter 2/Paladin 5
Uses Tower Shield + Dwarven Waraxe
Str 14; Dex 10; Con 18; Int 8; Wis 12; Cha 16 (18 w/ cloak)
(includes +1 Con at L4).
32 pb ---6+2+6+0+2+16
 
Hit Points: 10+(6d10=33)+28 Con = 74
AC: 10 +9 armour +5 shield =24. AC 28 using divine shield.
 
Attacks: +1 waraxe ----+8/+3 to hit, d10+3 includes -2 tower shield penalty.
 
Skills (ranks only): Jump 5, Diplomacy 5
 
Feats
C1- Endurance
F1- Power Attack
F2-Goad (move action; melee opponents pass DC 17 Will save or attack)
C3- Divine Might (spend 1 turn attempt, +Cha mod to attack/damage)
C4- Divine Shield (spend 1 turn attempt, +Cha modifier as sacred mod. to shield bonus)
C6- Steadfast Determination (Will saves modified by Constitution modifier; doesn't autofail Fort saves on natural 1. [PHB II]
 
Class features
L1 spell - bless weapon
Mount exchanged for charging smite (+15 damage on a charge thats also a smite; Complete Champion ?)
Lay on Hands --- 20 hps/day
Smite Evil 2/day (+4 to hit, +5 damage or +15 on a charge
Turn Undead 7/day
 
 
Saves:
Fort +7 base, +4 Con +3 divine grace = +14
Ref +1 base, +3 divine grace = +4
Will +1 base +4 Con, +3 divine grace = +8
Doesn't fail fort saves automatically on natural 1;
---additional +2 to save vs. spells and poison.
 
Items (19,000 GP total; cost listed after item name)
CLW wand x5 - 3750 GP
Cloak of Charisma +2 [4000]
+1 dwarven waraxe [2350]
+1 full plate (+9 AC)---2650
+1 Tower Shield (+5 AC) ---1200
2 platinum rings (shield other focus) - 100
scroll- Shield Other x 2 - 300
- scrolls are in holding pocket on back of tower shield
Bag of Holding I -2500
5 throwing axes -40
MW heavy crossbow -400
10 adamantine quarrels - 601
50 quarrels - 5
wand - lesser restoration (Pal 1) - 750
scroll- magic weapon - 25
2 tanglefoot bags - 100
229 gp remining

Etienne, rogue
 
Deep Halfling (MM pg 150)
Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3
Alignment: N
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
(incl +1 Dex at L4)
 
Class features
Rogue: trapfinding, evasion, Uncanny Dodge
Swashbuckler - grace (+1 Reflex saves), Weapon Finesse (B), insightful strike (+Int mod to damage)
 
Feats
1-Two Weapon Fighting
3- Darkstalker (Hide operates against blindsight, scent and tremensense etc; can flank opponents with all around vision; source - Lords of Madness)
6-Daring Outlaw [swashbuckler and rogue stack for determining dodge bonus to AC, sneak attack, grace] (Complete Scoundrel)
Note: Dodge swapped for shield of blades swashbuckler Substitution feature (PHB II: +2 shield bonus to AC when making a full attack action with two light weapons)
 
Racial abilities
Darkvision 60ft, stonecunning as dwarf, standard racial abilities for halfling except for bonuses to Climb/Jump/Move Silently.
 
 
AC: 20 (10+4 Dex +5 armour +1 sz; +2 shield bonus on full attack) --incorporeal foes -5 to hit (crystal of screening)
HP (average) - 6 at 1st lvl +3d6+3d10+14 Con = 47
BAB +6
Full Attacks: +10/+10/+5 (incl. +1 weapon, -2 sneak attack, +1 sz) --- d4+3+4d6 sneak attack each (includes +1 weapon enhancement, +2 for insightful strike)
 
Skills:
rogue at L1 -Tumble, Balance, MS, Hide, UMD, Listen, Spot, Escape Artist, Search, Disable Device
further rogue skills - 2 pts per level in Move Silently, UMD, Hide, Search, Disable - maxing these out at 3rd,5th, 7th
Swashbuckler (base 4 pts/lvl) - Balance, Tumble, Escape Artist, Spot (cc - 2 pts/lvl), Listen (cc).
 
Saves:
All saves: +1 resistance bonus, +1 halfling bonus
Fort +4 base, +2 Con ---+8
Ref +5 base, +4 Dex (+1 grace) ---+12
Will +2 base, +0 Wis ---+4
 
Items ---19,000 GP value total
Shortsword +1 *2 =4620 gp 4620
2* hand crossbow, nonmagical (= gp) 200
50 bolts 5
Cloak resistance +1 /elvenkind (+5 Hide) = 1000+2500 GP 3500
(no cost increase - see Magic Item Compendium notes)
Boots elvenkind 2500
2 tanglefoot bags 100
wand gravestrike (Clr1, sneak attack vs. undead, 1 round, swift action) - 750 gp
wand golemstrike (Wiz1, sneak attack vs. constructs, 1 round, swift action) - 750 gp
+1 chain shirt [+5 AC] 1250
Armour crystal- crystal of screening, lesser (incorporeal opponents suffer a -5 on attacks)(MIC,pg 26]
10 x-bow quarrels of Binding (+1 bonus, target is automatically Dimensional Anchored) = 1670 GP 1670
Sling, 10 rocks 0
Anklet of Translocation 1400
50' silk rope 10
Belt pouch 1
Waterskin 1
Thieves' Tools 30
Grappling Hook 1
Riding Dog 150
Thunderstone 30
5 lbs flour - 30 cp
2 cold iron daggers - 4
5 silver x-bow bolts -11
Rust Monster Wand (Complete Scoundrel pg 120) (160 gp)
Potion (sanctuary) (50)
Potion (expeditious retreat) (50)
756 gp left,7 sp
 
Edit notes:
edit1: added - cold iron daggers, silver bolts, flour; corrected AC [size bonus missing];
edit2: changed class build from Rog3/Swash 4 to Rogue 4/swash3 [added uncanny dodge; adjusted saves, skill points, hit points]; fixed armour bonus
edit3: subtracted ring of protection, added crystal of screening, rust monster wand.

Hey, actually getting somewhere. If you can make two more gimps then you'd have an alternate party. I wouldn't count on them running it though. They're refused both stepping it up and stepping on out many times. Even if you do all the work for them they still won't do it because they know that they will lose.

Still, you are at least willing to try, and that elevates you over all of them. Especially Mr. Worthless Troll Poster who thinks running a level 7 party through a modified level 1 adventure with entirely irrelevant "victory conditions" means anything at all at any time, ever.

But hey, at least we agree the gimps can only farm rats and not go on actual adventures! Progress!

I'll have you able to make characters that do not die during character creation within a year at this rate Justin!

Quote from: Mr. GC;596815If you have seen that table you know it looks something like this once you break it down by distribution (in 1/80ths):

The actual table:

10% Easy, EL < than APL
20% Easy if handled properly
50% Challenging, EL = APL
15% Very Difficult, EL = APL +1 to +4
5% Overpowering, EL = APL 5+

There are two categories here which are difficult to handle: The "easy if handled properly" (which is variable) and the "APL = 5+" (since that's non-limited on the upper end).

For the latter, you've proposed that we just treat those as APL+5 encounters. I'm fine with that.

For the former, here's the description from the rulebook: "There's a trick to this kind of encounter -- a trick the PCs must discover to have a good chance of victory. (...) If not handled properly, this kind of encounter becomes challenging or very difficult." Emphasis added. For the sake of distribution, therefore, let's ignore the "trick" and consider 50% of these encounters to be challenging (EL = APL) and 50% to be very difficult (EL = APL +1 to +4).

Finally, let's assume that the "Easy" category breaks out the same way that the "Very Difficult" category does.

The table now reads, distributed across 100 encounters:

2.5 EL = APL-4
2.5 EL = APL-3
2.5 EL = APL-2
2.5 EL = APL-1
60 EL = APL
6.25 EL = APL+1
6.25 EL = APL+2
6.25 EL = APL+3
6.25 EL = APL+4
5 = EL = APL+5

One way to look at this would be that 70% of all encounters will have EL = APL or lower. But you could also look at a pure average. This math is really intuitive if we simply assign an APL. Let's say 5th:

2.5 * 1 = 2.5
2.5 * 2 = 5
2.5 * 3 = 7.5
2.5 * 4 = 10
60 * 5 = 300
6.25 * 6 = 37.5
6.25 * 7 = 43.75
6.25 * 8 = 50
6.25 * 9 = 56.25
5 * 10 = 50

Average EL? 5.6. +0.6 above the APL of 5; not the +1.025 you claimed. And while you could certainly round 5.6 up to 6, that would be fundamentally inaccurate. (It would be the equivalent of adding +1 to about 15-20% of all encounters, which would obviously represent a huge skewing.) And we need to remember that this still overestimates the difficulty of the "Easy if handled properly" category.

QuoteSpeaking of wrong, one other thing I actually was wrong about is that level +4 or higher encounters have a 13.75% occurrence. I forgot the "or higher" part.

Unsurprisingly, this is also wrong. I'm assuming you did your distribution wrong (probably because you decided to use 1/80ths as a base for some reason) and then failed to correct for your rounding errors.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596862Still, you are at least willing to try, and that elevates you over all of them. Especially Mr. Worthless Troll Poster who thinks running a level 7 party through a modified level 1 adventure with entirely irrelevant "victory conditions" means anything at all at any time, ever.

It'll prove you wrong, but your implied concession is appreciated.

Of course, the fact that you just claimed that "having fun" while playing an RPG is "entirely irrelevant at any time, ever" is kind of the perfect summary of your dysfunction and incompetence.

The puzzle monster thing: EVERY monster is a puzzle monster. Or every encounter, more precisely.

That caster is going to sit there and ignore everything you do until you cast two consecutive Dispels in the same round - once to waste his WoCblock and the other to actually hit him and drop his stats to an affectable level.

That animal/giant/magical beast... whatever kind of melee brute is going to sit right there and smash your team with Better Than You(tm) stats until you hit its weak point (Will saves) for massive damage and one shot it.

Those ghosts are going to sit right there in the ground and sap people's HP and stat points until you figure out to ready actions so that you can actually attack them.

So instead they're just a different subset of the level + 1-4 encounters.

Now when you figure even distribution, you end up with percentages that can also be expressed as units of 80, for example 8.75% is 7/80ths.

So what actually happens is you have 10% level -1, 50% even level, 8.75% each of levels +1, +2, +3, +4, 5% level +5.

Or 8/80ths, 40/80ths, 7/80ths, 7/80ths, 7/80ths, 7/80ths, 4/80ths.

Or 10%/50%/8.75%/8.75%/8.75%/8.75%/5%.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596962It'll prove you wrong, but your implied concession is appreciated.

Of course, the fact that you just claimed that "having fun" while playing an RPG is "entirely irrelevant at any time, ever" is kind of the perfect summary of your dysfunction and incompetence.

It will prove gimps can farm rats, if heavily coddled, and that they will somehow enjoy being glorified rat farmers. It will not prove me wrong, and would indeed prove the opposite because if you actually wanted to prove the validity of gimps, and for whatever reason were not willing to step it up or step on out here you'd pick encounters that were actually level appropriate, and victory conditions that actually matter. And not "having fun" because it's already been proven that basket weavers enjoy failure, so naturally they would in fact enjoy failure.

But do keep up your autism, and complete failure to grasp a game, any game, ever. And let me know when you wish to be relevant by running your gimps through the SAD.

Seriously, the animosity in this thread. What the hell.

Also, Justin, if you want to run this, I suppose you can. But I have been planning my party for a while. I just haven't finished them. It's kind of a lot of work.

I have planned a fighter / barbarian with dungeoncrasher and pounce; a ranger / scout / barbarian with swift hunter, two-weapon fighting, and also pounce; a dedicated healer, and a warlock. I'll link sheets as I finish them.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596964Now when you figure even distribution, you end up with percentages that can also be expressed as units of 80, for example 8.75% is 7/80ths.

You can also express percentages in units of 1,353, but what is the fucking point of doing that?  'Percent' is a Latin word that means 'by the hundred'.  There is literally no reason to take something that is already a percentage, convert it to 80ths, then convert back to percentages again.

Your inability to perform or even comprehend basic maths principles is depressing.

Quote from: The Noobiest Noobie;596986Seriously, the animosity in this thread. What the hell.

Also, Justin, if you want to run this, I suppose you can. But I have been planning my party for a while. I just haven't finished them. It's kind of a lot of work.

I have planned a fighter / barbarian with dungeoncrasher and pounce; a ranger / scout / barbarian with swift hunter, two-weapon fighting, and also pounce; a dedicated healer, and a warlock. I'll link sheets as I finish them.

He's not going to run anything. Other than his mouth. And possibly his feet. Away.

That being said, back on subject: Ok. Let me know when you're done. And if Johnson wants to finish, and someone run that group through the SAD then we can do two groups at the same time. I'm not going to allow entry once the scenario has actually started though, because I know and I hope you know they'd just metagame the shit out of it and completely miss the point (and still likely lose).

Quote from: StormBringer;596994You can also express percentages in units of 1,353, but what is the fucking point of doing that?  'Percent' is a Latin word that means 'by the hundred'.  There is literally no reason to take something that is already a percentage, convert it to 80ths, then convert back to percentages again.

Your inability to perform or even comprehend basic maths principles is depressing.

As usual, you are a dumbass.

It is easier to average fraction based disributions than percents. As all of them can be expressed in the form of x/80, I did this to illustrate averaging. Of course you would not know this because you fail at math, the universe, and everything, and would probably get swept even if you used Noobiest Noob's team.

Quote from: StormBringer;596994You can also express percentages in units of 1,353, but what is the fucking point of doing that?

The first time it was to obfuscate the fact that he was rounding multiple times in order to take advantage of rounding errors in his "favor".

The second time it's apparently to obfuscate the fact that he's deliberately misreading and misrepresenting what the DMG says.

"The DMG says some of these are challenging encounters and some of these are very difficult encounters. So we're just going to treat all of them as very difficult encounters."

This guy cracks me up.

Is he illiterate? Incapable of elementary math? Trolling? All three? You decide.

EDIT: Actually, it appears that he's still fucking up the math. If you run the numbers with all 20% of the "Easy if handled properly" encounters being treated as "Very Difficult", it looks like you end up with an average encounter level of 5.8. Which still isn't the +1.025 he's claiming. And you'd still need to increase the EL of 10-15% of all encounters in order to make that happen (I'm eyeballing this last figure).

EDIT 2: Ah, spotted what he's doing. He's claiming that there will never be a single encounter lower than EL = APL-1, despite the DMG saying otherwise. What a moron.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596995It is easier to average fraction based disributions than percents. As all of them can be expressed in the form of x/80, I did this to illustrate averaging. Of course you would not know this because you fail at math, the universe, and everything, and would probably get swept even if you used Noobiest Noob's team.

By using 80ths, you are essentially weighting the averages, and I have it on good authority that is intellectually dishonest.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;597002The first time it was to obfuscate the fact that he was rounding multiple times in order to take advantage of rounding errors in his "favor".

The second time it's apparently to obfuscate the fact that he's deliberately misreading and misrepresenting what the DMG says.

"The DMG says some of these are challenging encounters and some of these are very difficult encounters. So we're just going to treat all of them as very difficult encounters.

This guy cracks me up.

Is he illiterate? Incapable of elementary math? Trolling? All three? You decide.

I am going with 'all three'.  I mean, the only possible explanation at this point is some very subtle and incredibly clever piece of performance art, right?  What little faith I had in the world will be utterly crushed if this turns out to be false.