I suspect that's the reason mecha are humanoid--because that allows them to do human like things (have hands, use weapons beyond what is mounted on them.) It makes the "tank" more appealing to play it as a person that way.

...A party of tanks!

Quote from: Spinachcat;286285I am working on reasons why humans or at least their consciousness would be trapped within machines and their only social interactions would be via holographic avatars.

Wha?! I thought the whole appeal of this game was that the rules don't say you can't live your entire life in armor. The stereotypical D&D fighter dreams of the day he can eat, sleep, and take a dump in his armor without negative repercussions. No further incentives are needed.
 

QuoteMuch of dungeon exploration is tactile, so every tank will have micro-drones to go out an touch/feel/smell the world.

That's a step in the wrong direction. What the player should imagine is the sensations of being in a tank. Remote drones disembody the player from that experience. You should focus on what it's like to be in a tank and then go from there. Off the top of my head, I'd go with as much tremor sense as possible so that the player can focus on the sensation of over running stuff. (Something you're quite fond of anyway right? )
 

QuoteHowever in OD&D, often touching the "bad thing" would have repercussions...so many you only have XYZ drones and losing them is bad. Or maybe the world sends direct damaging feedback to the tank body.

I think touch is the best way to describe the world from within a tank.
 
You investigate a bridge by edging towards it.
You make a perception check to see if it feels tank worthy.
If you're wrong, it colapses.
 
You investigate a wall by probing it with your main gun.
You make a perception check to see if it gives way.
If you're wrong, you damage your turret.
 
You investigate a possible ambush by popping the hatch and spraying an unexploded bomb with bullets.
You make a perception check to see if it's safe.
If you're wrong, you waste a couple shells on it just to be sure.
 
You investigate a possible avalanche by firing a couple of shells at it.
You make a perception check to see if it's stable.
If you're wrong you waste a nuke firing at it -- it was the only way to be sure.
 

QuoteThe main combat in fantasy is melee and tank combat is mainly ranged. However, my favorite thing to do in OGRE/GEV was ramming and overruns. Thus there will be lots of that. Also, in the case of monsters, many of them will be hand to hand...or claw to tread in this case.
 
In my fevered brain, I have images Tyranids charging a party of Mechanized Imperial Guard, Eldar Hovercraft and a few red painted Orc Wagons. The Orc goes close combat with grindas and choppas while the IG tanks unload first long range and then steamroll bugs under their threads and the Eldar zip about laying down weird weapon effects and using Psi-F/X to change the battlefield.

As far as the nids go, as soon as you start overrunning them your tank is essentialy blind. That's another arguement for having a tremorsense-centric perception system, and also a good reason to eschew the God's Eye view of miniatures gaming.
 

QuoteFor variety, I am going to let players choose manuever type - aka Hover, Wheels, Legs or Treads...but treads will be the default because I want there to be options, but most should be in the classic WW2 mode of the armored crawler. 'Cuz how else are you gonna fight the Giant Centipede?

Ok, but don't lose the tank focus.

In what ways would you see it overlapping or departing with Battletech / Mechwarrior?  (Vehicle (Mech) construction, missions, etc.)

A big old game of tanks could be fun, given the right circumstances.  1) Do each player have something fun to do?  2) Does players have distinct roles to play, should they choose to follow them?

Would you see it more as a story driven game or a tactical, get out the maps, game?  Story based would have player them leave their tanks often, which can be alright.  Alternatively, you have intelligent tanks that can "transform" and assume a humanoid shape so they can do things a vehicle couldn't.

Just my wandering thoughts on the subject.  I think a person could spend a lot of time playing with the idea, developing types of stats, and have a good time in the process.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;286626...A party of tanks!

Yup.  Get your Battlewagons up front, make sure your Hierarchs defend the Evokers and have the Corsair cover the rear.

Its a biker gang...with treads and turrets!

Quote from: Silverlion;286447I suspect that's the reason mecha are humanoid--because that allows them to do human like things (have hands, use weapons beyond what is mounted on them.) It makes the "tank" more appealing to play it as a person that way.

This is the disconnect of "Tank as PC".  Powered Armor or Mecha or Transformable Anthromorphic Bots can all essential become Armored Person and interact with the world as biped humanoid.

That's why I am unsure how my concept of "Tank as PC" will play out with actual players.   Ken St. Andre wrote Starfaring in the mid-70s and that was all about your PC being a starship and its crew.   Each player would have their own ship and go on adventures.

Obviously, Starfaring wasn't the big hit like T&T.

Quote from: Koltar;286425Your vehicle has really nasty weapons that can blow up just about anything , but it alsoi has a decent scientific lab built inside of it and rations that last a really long time.

The Landmaster and the Ark are both good examples.   Certainly, the "spellcasting" abilities will be focussed on lots of non-combat applications.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;286672The stereotypical D&D fighter dreams of the day he can eat, sleep, and take a dump in his armor without negative repercussions. No further incentives are needed.

I think you are correct.   I was pitching this to some friends and they wanted to have the tanks have some kind of sleep/rest/downtime cycle because being all-armor, all-guns, all-the-time was a big draw.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;286672What the player should imagine is the sensations of being in a tank. Remote drones disembody the player from that experience. You should focus on what it's like to be in a tank and then go from there.

You are absolutely right.  The prime focus must be seeing and experiencing the world from the viewpoint of a living Tank.   Drones will be "magic items" that are cool, but not core systems.

Explaining "Tank Perspective" to both players and TMs will be all important.

TM is Tank Master!

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;286672If you're wrong you waste a nuke firing at it -- it was the only way to be sure.

Sweet!   Tactical Micro-Nukes...the 10 foot pole for the new generation!

Quote from: spellchrome;286707In what ways would you see it overlapping or departing with Battletech / Mechwarrior?  (Vehicle (Mech) construction, missions, etc.)

Some overlap with Battletech / Car Wars / Heavy Gear / Robot Warriors.   Certainly vehicle construction will be an integral part, but there will be no calculators involved.   Creation choices will be about hey, that sounds fun much more than hey, that's good physics.   I am not worried about trying to simulate the What If about futuristic tanks, but the What If about spellcasting tanks in a setting where the tanks are the adventurers.

The biggest departure will be that Tanks will be designed as an RPG that does not require minis or terrain.  

Quote from: spellchrome;2867071) Do each player have something fun to do?  2) Does players have distinct roles to play, should they choose to follow them?

I am a big fan of niche protection in class design.   Also, I am fanatical that each class must have its own distinct role and flavor BUT there will be plenty to customize in a meaningful way.

Quote from: spellchrome;286707Would you see it more as a story driven game or a tactical, get out the maps, game?

Both...but maps and minis will be 100% optional.

Quote from: spellchrome;286707Story based would have player them leave their tanks often, which can be alright.  Alternatively, you have intelligent tanks that can "transform" and assume a humanoid shape so they can do things a vehicle couldn't.

That's where the crack smoking comes in.   My goal is that the PCs are the tank just as much as our brains are trapped in our bodies...so there is no leaving the tank.   Also, I don't want to do the transforming thing to mecha biped because my insane goal is to delve into stories about what a vehicle can do and how the vehicles with their kewl powerz solve the drama.

Quote from: Spinachcat;286840You are absolutely right. The prime focus must be seeing and experiencing the world from the viewpoint of a living Tank. Drones will be "magic items" that are cool, but not core systems.

Drones are the Tank version of herding animals into traps.
 

QuoteThat's where the crack smoking comes in. My goal is that the PCs are the tank just as much as our brains are trapped in our bodies...so there is no leaving the tank. Also, I don't want to do the transforming thing to mecha biped because my insane goal is to delve into stories about what a vehicle can do and how the vehicles with their kewl powerz solve the drama.

Honestly, what this reminds me of is Star Wars games where you spend the entire time piloting a starfighter. There's really no reason to get out since anything you can do in the vacuum of space you can do better with 120 MGLS of thrust and quad laser cannons. Anyway... you know how in D&D if things go really badly your soul gets seperated from your body? I think that in your tank game if things go really badly your pilot is seperated from your tank. Instead of becoming a ghost, you become a pedestrian!
 
Pedestrians are the ghosts of Tank world. Ghosts can't interact with physical objects unless or have some sort of ghostly significance, or the object is very small. Pedestrians can't interact with physical objects unless they way a fraction of a ton or have teeny tiny pedestrian sized controls.
 
Ghosts are wierdly mobile (they can walk through walls) yet immobile (they typicaly stuck haunting one location.) Pedestrians are wierdly mobile (they can walk through doors, climb ladders and swim) yet immobile (they typicaly get stuck in areas they can't ram their way out of.)
 
And most telling of all -- the ultimate aim of every ghost is to get their body back, and the ultimate aim of every pedestrian is to get their tank back. Some ghosts/pedestrians are so desperate they can even posess/comandeer someone else's body/tank!
 
I could see my tank from the outside.
--Tank Commander Fjordcrusher on his near pedestrian experience (NPE).

I have tenatively built up a list of Tank classes and their D&D equivalent:

CORE CLASSES

Battlewagons (Fighters)
Heavy chassis so they load up on armor plating, heaviest weapons and generally go with tracks or rarely legs.  Their main ability is their strong assault both with overruns and weaponry.   Think Heavy Battle Tank in Ogre terms, though at high levels, a Battlewagon could become an Ogre Mark III in its own right.

Corsair (Thief)
Light chassis and always hovercraft with stealth technology and access to ancient code machines that allow them to Cycle Locks, Decipher Alien Languages, Assess Threats and so forth.  Good accuracy with weaponry, but rarely mount more than 2 light weapons or 1 medium weapon.   Think GEV in Ogre terms.   Fast, manueverable, tricky with options that exist in no other tank class.

Heirarch - (Cleric)
Medium chassis tank with ability to load heavy armor and most weaponry, but main ability to channel Uplink codes to enhance and support allied tanks.   They have the ability to Recode undead enemy tanks, causing them to lose fire control and sometimes, set off their self destruct mechanisms.   Most Heirarchs opt for treads, but have the option for legs or wheels.  

Evoker - (Wizard)
Light chassis tank with specialized Rune Caster Mortar that allows the tank to utilize iron shells covered with alien magical runes for a variety of effects, mostly battlefield control.   Evokers may choose wheels, legs or hover capabilities.  Evokers rarely have more than one hold-out weapon and sometimes go unarmed, using the weapon mount space for advanced sensory equipment or booster systems for their Rune Casters.   Think Mobile Missile Launcher in Ogre terms.

HYBRID TANKS

I am working on mixing and matching the 4 core into hybrid tanks that have their own speciality.    There are 6 possible match-ups and I am trying to make sure they balance with the core tanks.

In general, Heirarchs will cast spells out of combat for repair, buffing, info gathering while Evokers will cast spells in combat to harm, confuse or rout enemies and to alter the battlefield.

Hybrids will be able to weld on magic items that pertain to either of their parent tank classes.  AKA, an Impaler (F/T) could mount either Battlewagon or Corsair magic items.

One of the hybrids, the Voodoo tank, is a Cleric/Mage so you get to tool around in decent armor and launch spells all the damn time.   Of course, your spells only go to 3rd Rank by 10th level whereas a full Heirarch or Evoker would have more spells of their type and go to 5th rank at 10th level.

I like the four classes!
 
The different treads for battlewagon and corsair is golden -- an iconic way to see at a glance who is who and good rationalization for why those two classes have different powers. I'd like to see that concept, that tread form follows function, emphasised more in the other tanks.
 
Like, if the Evoker tank is as fragile as the wizard, perhaps Evoker treads could be something fragile like a mass of spindly spider legs? Something made of wierd materials to augment casting at the expense of durability.
 
And perhaps the Hierophant is a walking tank, elevated so that it can get line of sight but built on combat legs so it can still do overruns? Since it has the uplink ability, it could benefit from extra height to get better broadcasting range.

I like the Evoker on spider legs!   I am hoping to have default motion choices for each class, but also some option to choose an alternate so people can't be 100% accurate just looking at the tanks.   Treads = Battlewagon should be a mostly correct assumption, but it could also be a heavy chassis Heirarch or one of the hybrids.

Currently, we have three chassis:

Heavy Chassis - allows the tank to carry more armor, heavier weapons and overrun bigger foes, but limits the motion to treads and maybe walkers with slower speeds due to the weight.

Medium Chassis - is standard default and can use treads, wheels or walkers.  

Light Chassis - although the weakest, the light chassis can use hover engines and get more speed out of walkers or wheels.   It is more manueverable and can traverse areas considered too unstable for a heavier tank.

Instead of Tanks I've been doing a starship version of this type of game for the past 15 years.  (It evolved from a tank game predecessor.)

Battlestar Excalibur

Shield = 10
Hull = 7, Hull Points = 21
Engine = 8, Maneuver = 3, Xtra = 4
Armament = 13.3, Weapon Points = 40
Armor = 7, Armor Points = 14

Weapons
Ultra Cannon, Pwr = 8, Arc = Fwd
MR Rack, Pwr = 7, Arc = RS
MR Rack, Pwr = 7, Arc = Ls
Laser, Pwr = 3 SP, Arc = RS
Laser, Pwr = 3 SP, Arc = RS
Laser, Pwr = 3 SP, Arc = LS
Laser, Pwr = 3 SP, Arc = LS

Options
Sensors = 2
Targeting Computer + 1
Cloak = 2
Tractor Beam = 3
Damage Control = 2
Vital Area Targeting Computer

Captain, Rank = Admiral, Skill = 6

Archeologists, Treasure Hunters, and Adventurers are now landing on a hostile world all trying to search for alien artifacts.  You can't land a ship there, but you can beam down to a preset beaming station. (SOmeone managed to get it placed). (There might be a safe base or two out there).

The environment is so hostile, that only a tank like exploration vehicle can survive. And that is before things try to eat you and your tank.

Exploration vehicles now are armed to deal with the hostile robots and alien creatures, as welll as claim jumping tankings.

The aliens were huge by our scale, so your tank with its crew of 4 or so is "people sized".  

The idea is still odd, but here are some ways to explain some of it.

Quote from: Gabriel2;293310Instead of Tanks I've been doing a starship version of this type of game for the past 15 years.  (It evolved from a tank game predecessor.)

Have you played Ken St. Andre's Starfaring?  He published it after T&T, but it never caught on.  Definitely a Star Trek homage.  

How have your players adapted to the idea of playing a starship instead of just one of the crew?

Quote from: MoonHunter;293437The idea is still odd, but here are some ways to explain some of it.

We are on the same page.  However, my twist is that your Treasure Hunter had his brain downloaded into the tank and clones of yourself are your crew, but the clones are imperfect and mostly are ineffecient outside of their core function.

Quote from: Spinachcat;293515Have you played Ken St. Andre's Starfaring?  He published it after T&T, but it never caught on.  Definitely a Star Trek homage.  

I've seen mention of the game, but that's about it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;293515How have your players adapted to the idea of playing a starship instead of just one of the crew?

Technically, the players play a person playing a game.  The premise of it is that it's an online game where players control a starship in a vast universe.  Think EVE Online, except we were doing this with pen and paper back in the early 90s.

Like Dream Park, there are two levels to the game.  There's the actual game where the starship cruises around, explores the virtual universe and engages in various activities with other ships.  A big chunk of the fun was improving your ship.

The other part of the game is the pure roleplaying of pretending to be this character completely absorbed in this game of starship battles and galactic alliances.

We also blue-book campaigns.  The idea is that there were various BBSes (now messageboards) dedicated to this game and the participants get together and post about stuff as well as read for intel.  We record all this in a notebook, and great feuds, alliances, and double-crosses are told therein.

Looking at it now, it seems rather quaint and a not so subtle commentary on MMORPGs.  However, we had all this going before Ultima Online was even being developed.  It's funny how prophetic a lot of stuff in the little game was.

This sounds pretty damn cool!  I like tanks much more than people shaped battle platforms.

H2H combat...a staple of RPGs...what to do?

Close combat is the main fighting for most D&D battles.   Modern warfare is ranged, but even futuristic games like 40k and Mutant Chronicles romance the H2H combat aspect because players enjoy it.

I was watching Total Recall last night (special edition with a great interview with Paul Verhoeven) and there was a cool scene with a mining tractor with multiple chewing grinders and nasty corkscrew devices.    I've always been a fan of chainsaws and chop meat so somehow I have to make lots of cool close combat options work for tanks too.

Certainly, the preferred range should be medium to long, but mixing it up in the close combat crunch is too much fun to ignore.