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Story in RPGs

Started by creabots, October 14, 2007, 08:00:38 PM

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VBWyrde

Quote from: flyingmiceThe first reference is to the game as played, what you do with your group.

The second is what is published in the game book. What Elminster did in his game, so to speak.

There is a bit of confusion between the game you play and the game you buy at the store. I was trying to avoid that.

Plot can refer to:

A: What was planned for your game, or
B: What actually happened, with or without A.

Metaplot always refers to what the designers have happening in the game world out of your control. Some people love metaplot, some despise it. Some metaplot is intrusive, some isn't. It's still metaplot because you don't control it.

-clash

Super!  Thanks.  :)

- Mark
* Aspire to Inspire *
Elthos RPG

estar

Quote from: flyingmicePlot can refer to:

A: What was planned for your game, or
B: What actually happened, with or without A.

Metaplot always refers to what the designers have happening in the game world out of your control. Some people love metaplot, some despise it. Some metaplot is intrusive, some isn't. It's still metaplot because you don't control it.

Plot is what you plan for your game. Story is what results from playing the game. Every RPG has a plot even it is the unstated assumptions of the setting.

I am not sure I would make the distinction you do between plot and metaplot. There is plot that you write, and plot that other people write. I think metaplot is more about the level of background. What you write for your players that impacts them is plot. What you write about your setting is metaplot. GMs will take from their metaplot elements to use in their session's plot.

But before we get hung up labels I think the concepts are there whether we agree on what to actually call them.

1) A GM writes down NPCs, locations, items, and events and uses them for a session
2) A GM reads about NPCs, locations, items, and events and uses them for a session
3) A GM writes about NPCs, location, items, and events that focuses on a setting
4) A GM reads about NPCs, location, items, and events that focuses on a setting
5) A GM runs a session using all the elements of what he has read and/or written, responding to the player's action using the rules of the game.

I call #1 and #2 plot, I call #3 and #4 meta plot, and the result of #5 is a story that you tell your friends about.

I use the word plot rather than story or other terms because the world plot encompasses both the result of what you are doing before a game session (or during as the case may be) and what you are doing.

http://www.answers.com/plot&r=67
#  The pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama.
# A secret plan to accomplish a hostile or illegal purpose; a scheme

-E.

Quote from: creabotsIs it just me, or do RPGs seem like a weak medium to tell stories? I think that the strong point of video games (and pen-and-paper RPGs) is interactivity. To many gamers, story is just a side-affect. That's why I don't understand why some people consider games such as the Final Fantasy series to effective when there is, in my view, a lack of interactivity in the series in comparison to other RPGs. If interactivity is the virtue in gaming, then I think pen-and-paper is king. Still, electronic gaming may hold some of it's own virtues over pen-and-paper (though none come immediately to mind-other than, perhaps, convenience. i.e. it's faster to turn on a console and slip in a game than it is to gather a party of friends.) If people are looking for good stories, it seems to make more sense just to open a book or watch some movies or shows. Any thoughts on all of this?

I like stories in my RPGs and find them to be a powerful and effective tool for telling stories.

By "stories" I mean that

* The game has action and conflict that generally rises to a climax and then has a satisfying resolutoin (where satisfying could, in some cases, be an anti-climax, but generally means the climax is resolved)
* The characters have recognizeable human motivations and depth of character enough for me to identify with them and relate at an intellectional and emotional level to what's going on
* The setting, situation, and so forth is described well enough for me to have a sense of place and time
* The action and events in the story have a coherent and identifiable "theme" and "tone" the way a movie or book might
* I want the game to have a vision and ideas that are interesting and surprising. I like games that introduce me to new ideas or new ways to look at things (the way, say, the work of authors and directors I like do). To be clear: I expect this from the GM, not the game author (I'm not interested in games that have this kind of thing built in)
* etc.

I also want this story to be created during play rather than pre-planned (although I expect the initial situation to be pre-planned). I don't want the GM or anyone else neutralizing my actions. As a GM I don't have a pre-planned plot.

My main way to achieve this is to set up a starting situation that's likely to lead to good story and unleash the PC's in it. Typically the starting situation is calibrated to the PC's goals and the player's preferences -- to help ensure that everything clicks.

This system has some drawbacks --

1) Games, in general, do not allow editing so there's more stuff that doesn't fit, tangents, etc. than you'd find in an edited, finished work.

2) The freedom of the PCs to do whatever they want means that sometimes things will not go well and the story will end in an unsatisfying anticlimax... but that risk actually makes the games that do work (most of them IME) more fulfilling and fun.

3) A lot of the stuff I ask for relies on the GM's story-telling skills: characterization of NPC's, the ability to describe setting, improv skills, sense of pacing, etc. When I'm GMing, it takes a significant amount of work; IME it's worth it.

Anyway, bottom line: I think table-top RPGs are a great way to generate and enjoy "story"

Cheers,
-E.
 

flyingmice

Quote from: estarPlot is what you plan for your game. Story is what results from playing the game. Every RPG has a plot even it is the unstated assumptions of the setting.

I am not sure I would make the distinction you do between plot and metaplot. There is plot that you write, and plot that other people write. I think metaplot is more about the level of background. What you write for your players that impacts them is plot. What you write about your setting is metaplot. GMs will take from their metaplot elements to use in their session's plot.

But before we get hung up labels I think the concepts are there whether we agree on what to actually call them.

1) A GM writes down NPCs, locations, items, and events and uses them for a session
2) A GM reads about NPCs, locations, items, and events and uses them for a session
3) A GM writes about NPCs, location, items, and events that focuses on a setting
4) A GM reads about NPCs, location, items, and events that focuses on a setting
5) A GM runs a session using all the elements of what he has read and/or written, responding to the player's action using the rules of the game.

I call #1 and #2 plot, I call #3 and #4 meta plot, and the result of #5 is a story that you tell your friends about.

I use the word plot rather than story or other terms because the world plot encompasses both the result of what you are doing before a game session (or during as the case may be) and what you are doing.

http://www.answers.com/plot&r=67
#  The pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama.
# A secret plan to accomplish a hostile or illegal purpose; a scheme


Umm, then your personal definitions don't mesh up to commonly held definitions, which is a bear for mutual understanding.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

flyingmice

Quote from: -E.I like stories in my RPGs and find them to be a powerful and effective tool for telling stories.

[SNIP GOOD STUFF]

Anyway, bottom line: I think table-top RPGs are a great way to generate and enjoy "story"

Cheers,
-E.

E runs his games exactly like I do, except I wouldn't give a bat's penis whether there is a good story or not at the end. To me, the story is just a by product I have no use for. I expect, though, that a good story arises as often in my games as his, because the method is identical.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

James J Skach

Plot: The pattern of events or main story in a narrative or drama.
Setting: The time, place, and circumstances in which a narrative, drama, or film takes place.
Context: The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

IMHO, people shy away from plot as a descriptor for Setting/Context because it hews to closely to the concept of predetermination. IOW, plot implies that the story is already written.

Instead, people are far more comfortable with the idea that the game/adventure/campaign/session begins in a start-state, a setting/context which may or may not have various plot hooks embedded, but has no specific plot, or series of events, required. The players' interactions with the start-state produce the next state, iterating until the end-state is reached.

It is preferred that the progression from start-state to end-state produces, in retrospect, a story.  But to call the creation of the start-state a plot implies that the progression from start-state to end-state has already been determined - the story has been written.

Just a thought on the terminology obstacles....
The rules are my slave, not my master. - Old Geezer

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RPGPundit

Quote from: creabotsIs it just me, or do RPGs seem like a weak medium to tell stories? I think that the strong point of video games (and pen-and-paper RPGs) is interactivity. To many gamers, story is just a side-affect. That's why I don't understand why some people consider games such as the Final Fantasy series to effective when there is, in my view, a lack of interactivity in the series in comparison to other RPGs. If interactivity is the virtue in gaming, then I think pen-and-paper is king. Still, electronic gaming may hold some of it's own virtues over pen-and-paper (though none come immediately to mind-other than, perhaps, convenience. i.e. it's faster to turn on a console and slip in a game than it is to gather a party of friends.) If people are looking for good stories, it seems to make more sense just to open a book or watch some movies or shows. Any thoughts on all of this?

Yes, you're right. RPGs are a weak medium for stories. When story does happen, it only happens spontaneously.

Trying to use RPGs to "create" stories is basically a direct way to create a crappy story and a crappy RPG all at once.

RPGPundit
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droog

Quote from: RPGPunditTrying to use RPGs to "create" stories is basically a direct way to create a crappy story and a crappy RPG all at once.
Assertion! Define 'story'.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

-E.

Quote from: flyingmiceE runs his games exactly like I do, except I wouldn't give a bat's penis whether there is a good story or not at the end. To me, the story is just a by product I have no use for. I expect, though, that a good story arises as often in my games as his, because the method is identical.

-clash

I don't really see RPG's producing anything -- there's no "product" (from my perspective) any more than there's a "product" from me watching a movie or reading a book... maybe my memories. Maybe something to think about later (some scenes and events from games I played years ago stay with me...)

But I want the game to be interesting while we're playing it -- I dislike games where we wander aimlessly with no sense of purpose, or where there's no sense of challenge.

So maybe the story-product is important in this way: in my experience, the games I like make for interesting stories when written down or told.

I don't think that's because the transcript itself is interesting (necessarily, but some actual-play posts are) but because the factors that make a written story good are also the ones that make a game good:

* Memorable, well-drawn characters
* Interesting action
* Cool ideas
* A coherent narrative that ties the individual scenes together into a larger piece
* A satisfying climax and coda
* Etc. (I'm repeating myself from my earlier post)

I'm interested that you don't care about "story" -- if you had a game without any of these, would you consider it a success? Speaking from personal experience, when I've run games where one or more of these elements were missing (most recently, a game where one of the PC's was grossly over-powered and there was nothing 'satisfying' about their inevitable victory)  I've considered them less-than-successful.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people might say something like, "If I got to play my character it's all good" without putting much emphasis on how the events of the game, taken holistically come out.

Cheers,
-E.
 

flyingmice

Quote from: -E.I don't really see RPG's producing anything -- there's no "product" (from my perspective) any more than there's a "product" from me watching a movie or reading a book... maybe my memories. Maybe something to think about later (some scenes and events from games I played years ago stay with me...)

But I want the game to be interesting while we're playing it -- I dislike games where we wander aimlessly with no sense of purpose, or where there's no sense of challenge.

So maybe the story-product is important in this way: in my experience, the games I like make for interesting stories when written down or told.

I don't think that's because the transcript itself is interesting (necessarily, but some actual-play posts are) but because the factors that make a written story good are also the ones that make a game good:

* Memorable, well-drawn characters
* Interesting action
* Cool ideas
* A coherent narrative that ties the individual scenes together into a larger piece
* A satisfying climax and coda
* Etc. (I'm repeating myself from my earlier post)

I'm interested that you don't care about "story" -- if you had a game without any of these, would you consider it a success? Speaking from personal experience, when I've run games where one or more of these elements were missing (most recently, a game where one of the PC's was grossly over-powered and there was nothing 'satisfying' about their inevitable victory)  I've considered them less-than-successful.

On the other hand, I think a lot of people might say something like, "If I got to play my character it's all good" without putting much emphasis on how the events of the game, taken holistically come out.

Cheers,
-E.

Nope, I was wrong. It's just a differing interpretation of 'story' again. I'm right with you all the way, then.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

Gronan of Simmerya

Quote from: creabotsIs it just me, or do RPGs seem like a weak medium to tell stories? I think that the strong point of video games (and pen-and-paper RPGs) is interactivity. To many gamers, story is just a side-affect. That's why I don't understand why some people consider games such as the Final Fantasy series to effective when there is, in my view, a lack of interactivity in the series in comparison to other RPGs. If interactivity is the virtue in gaming, then I think pen-and-paper is king. Still, electronic gaming may hold some of it's own virtues over pen-and-paper (though none come immediately to mind-other than, perhaps, convenience. i.e. it's faster to turn on a console and slip in a game than it is to gather a party of friends.) If people are looking for good stories, it seems to make more sense just to open a book or watch some movies or shows. Any thoughts on all of this?


As was said above, define "telling stories".

I got started in old-time D&D as a "sandbox" world.  That is, here is the world, here are your characters.  What do you do?

There was no predetermined plot, quest, or goal.  "Story" was whatever the players happened to do.

I don't play RPGs to "tell stories", I play RPGs to "have adventures".  I'm damned if I can put the difference into words, but on an intuitive level it's real for me.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

The rules can\'t cure stupid, and the rules can\'t cure asshole.

flyingmice

Quote from: Old GeezerAs was said above, define "telling stories".

I got started in old-time D&D as a "sandbox" world.  That is, here is the world, here are your characters.  What do you do?

There was no predetermined plot, quest, or goal.  "Story" was whatever the players happened to do.

I don't play RPGs to "tell stories", I play RPGs to "have adventures".  I'm damned if I can put the difference into words, but on an intuitive level it's real for me.

Word, Geezer! :D

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

VBWyrde

Quote from: Old GeezerAs was said above, define "telling stories".

I got started in old-time D&D as a "sandbox" world.  That is, here is the world, here are your characters.  What do you do?

There was no predetermined plot, quest, or goal.  "Story" was whatever the players happened to do.

I don't play RPGs to "tell stories", I play RPGs to "have adventures".  I'm damned if I can put the difference into words, but on an intuitive level it's real for me.

Aya.  But let me ask you something Geezer... did those Adventures make for good stories in their own right?   Not because they were designed to, but because you played them out in interesting ways?

- Mark
* Aspire to Inspire *
Elthos RPG

Seanchai

Quote from: creabotsIs it just me, or do RPGs seem like a weak medium to tell stories?

It depends on what you mean by a story. To me, a story has a beginning, middle, and an end; rising and falling action; etc..

I don't feel that RPGs create those at all. To my mind, you can tell a story or form narrative about what happened at the table, but the act of playing the game itself doesn't create a story.

Seanchai
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Seanchai

Quote from: flyingmiceUmm, then your personal definitions don't mesh up to commonly held definitions, which is a bear for mutual understanding.

Yeah. To my understanding, there's no "plot" and "what happened" in a story in the traditional sense. The plot and what happened are synonymus.

Seanchai
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