This is an oldie but a goody, at least for me, but I thought I'd re-post it since I can't seem to find it on this site. Maybe it got pruned. Anyway, here are some thoughts on the running of a Fourth Age Middle Earth game campaign.
A Fourth Age Middle Earth campaign is a great way to use Tolkien's world as a game setting without having to worry about, or change, canon. Tolkien himself provides a lot of interesting detail about his world after the time of the Lord of the Rings, detail that provides a wealth of campaign hooks and ideas. I'll quote some of this material to show how relevant it is to a DM wanting to run a campaign in Middle Earth.
"For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Eomer grew old."
- The Return of the King, Apendix A, part II, The House of Eorl
This paragraph sets the premise for decades of Fourth Age adventure. It doesn't involve just Men, either. Even though Tolkien makes much of how the Fourth Age is a time of fading for all the peoples of Middle Earth except Men, it is apparent that many of the other races are actually becoming much more gregarious in the Fourth Age. Here are some examples:
"After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the Dwarf-folk of Erebor, and he became Lord of the Glittering Caves. He and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan. For Minas Tirith they forged gates of mithril and steel to replace those broken by the Witch-king. Legolas his friend brought south Elves out of Greenwood, and they dwelt in Ithilien,
and it became once again the fairest country in all the westlands."
- The Return of the King, Appendix A, part III, Durin's Folk
"Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow had passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.
In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded, and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory. And on the day of the New Year of the Elves, Celeborn and Thranduil met in the midst of the forest; and they renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, The Wood of Greenleaves. Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took all the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lorien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lorien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadon."
- The Return of the King, Appendix B, The Tale of Years
In addition, it seems that the Fourth Age is a time of renewal and rebuilding. A few brief but significant passages suggest that Elessar seeks to reinvigorate the entire northwestern part of Middle Earth, something which will take a number of hardy individuals performing countless heroic deeds. Here are some examples:
"King Elessar rides north, and dwells for a while by Lake Evendim."
[Fourth Age 14]
- The Return of the King, Appendix B, The Tale of Years
"And Aragorn gave to Faramir Ithilien to be his princedom, and bade him dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen within sight of the City.'For,' said he, 'Minas Ithil in Morgul Vale shall be utterly destroyed, and though it may in time to come be made clean, no man may dwell there for many long years.'"
- The Return of the King, Book VI, Chapter V: The Steward and the King
As simple as these passages seem, the actual doing of the deeds required to accomplish them is rather difficult. Elessar not only travels to, but actually lives at Annuminas for a while. Seeing that the city was a ruin at the end of the Third Age, abandoned for centuries, and surrounded by wilderness, this implies an enormous effort was made by Gondor. It seems clear that Annuminas is restored, and becomes the chief city of the northern kingdom. It is not difficult to picture that King Elessar also rebuilt Fornost Erain and Tharbad. It is also highly likely, even though unmentioned, that Osgiliath was cleared and rebuilt; given Elessar's desire to rebuild the Dunedain kingdoms, this seems a natural assumption to make.
In addition, the destruction of Minas Ithil, an entire fortress-city the size of Minas Tirith (at least), held by the chief of the Nazgul for centuries and used as a base for a large part of the strength of Mordor, is a task which would have to involve thousands of troops. This is especially true if the city was used as a rallying point and base for some of the remnants of Sauron's armies. It is not hard to imagine that the interior of the city is filled with all manner of evil things - Men, beasts, traps, and a generally unwholesome atmosphere. Very much like a D&D adventure. And speaking of D&D adventures...
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."
- The Two Towers, Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider
With the Balrog defeated, Sauron gone, and a huge part of the strength of the orcs in the region destroyed, it is quite likely that the Dwarves would at least begin to explore and clean out Moria. This would provide the archetypal dungeon adventure. Especially given that tantalizing glimpse Gandalf gives into a world of darkness and horror far beneath even where the Kings of the Dwarves once dwelled.
Here are a few random, and final, thoughts about possibilities for Fourth Age campaigns:
Mirkwood (renamed Eryn Lasgalen) and Ithilien would likely also remain havens for a time for evil creatures, such as spiders and orcs, until the Elves, woodmen, and Beornings finally rid the forest of them. Shelob still dwells near Cirth Ungol, and the Watcher in the Water still haunts the lake near the west gate of Moria.
Veterans of Celeborn's taking of Dol Guldur would be good candidates for duty in Mordor itself, or any place wherein darkness still holds sway.
There are at least two great Elves still unaccounted for in the 4th Age: Daeron and Maglor. Perhaps one or the other is encountered in the East, or perhaps one or the other returns to western Middle Earth, finally weary of wandering, their pain and sorrow driving them towards the west at last. Perhaps one of them could take up residence in fading Lorien, or even in Rivendell for a time, or take up the kingship of East Lorien once Celeborn leaves.
All in all, Middle-earth of the Fourth Age is a vital, interesting setting. The gloom of Sauron's presence has been replaced by an atmosphere of beginnings, but remnants of the Shadow and the things it wrought are still in Middle-earth, awaiting heroes to root them out and vanquish them. Just because the One Ring and its master are gone doesn't mean their legacy has vanished.
I've read this before when you've posted elsewhere but I think it's a great idea for a few of reasons.
1. The number of uber-NPCs drops dramatically. Gandalf et al. have fulfilled their destinies and left the remainder behind.
2. It's post apocalypse but in a good way. Many of the old power structures are gone so there are chances for upward mobility and nation building.
3. It's largely unwritten. It's harder to do much earlier in the timeline without some players worrying about how it conflicts with canon. (The good part of using a well known setting is that many people have heard about it and like it. The bad part is that there are too many self designated experts.)
Sure, most of the famous demihumans are gone but that just leaves more room the unknown demihumans to enter the stage. Even if they know their kind will dwindle, it isn't instant and they could survive pretty much forever with a low profile along the lines of Tom Bombadil.
I've never read beyond the Simarillion but it's celar that there were many entities good and bad, such as Bombadil, the Balrog, etc. who were never part of Sauron's war on either side. But they still might have opinions about new activities in their area.
I totally agree that this is one of the best ways to go about using a middle earth setting.
Mirkwood, The Far North, and Mordor would still be a places of darkness, needing to be cleared.
What kind of system would you use, to really capture the essence of this? How would you deal with the question of worship?
Tolkien actually worked on a Fourth Age sequel to the Lord of the Rings trilogy at some point, where darkness came back to the halls of Minas Tirith long after King Elessar's death. Shadow cults, plots to kill the king of Gondor and Arnor, and a resurgence of orcs in the wild... it was in the end deemed too dark and gritty, not heroic enough to bother (from JRRT's point of view: remember this is the guy who hated Shakespeare with a passion).
There's a way to build a fantastic campaign out of it all, I agree. But the tone needs to be right, i.e. no goofy magic, no high fantasy. Something more like Harn in tone, I'd think, since the War of the Ring itself would be remembered as the grand time of epics and glories at that time.
Quote from: LordVreeg;406153What kind of system would you use, to really capture the essence of this?
I think a lot of fantasy RPGs could handle it, but that's just me. The actual Lord of the Rings RPG Decipher produced would work. I could see a case being made for a BRP take on it, or, as Benoist suggests, Harn.
My own personal druthers run to D&D, whether a variant of AD&D, d20, or 4e. All of them would necessitate going through the spells and powers to cull inappropriate stuff, and a definite list of available classes and races. Decipher's game's take on magic and corruption would be at least a good guideline for modifying the magic system.
Quote from: LordVreeg;406153How would you deal with the question of worship?
I don't think I would deal with it at all, at least for the Free Peoples. With Aragorn on the throne, perhaps the Valar would once again be venerated, but it never seemed that they were worshiped, at least in the sense modern religion or even RPGs use the term. For the evil folk, like the orcs or Black Numenoreans, I think they would continue to worship Sauron, and, by association, Morgoth. Perhaps the way the Conan RPG deals with the worship of evil entities would be appropriate.
When it seemed likely I would get to run such a campaign, I'd written an outline of a campaign I called "The Ruins of Barad-dur," set very early on in Aragorn's reign. It would be centered on a keep built to watch over the titular site. The gist of it was for the PCs to keep servants of Sauron from recovering anything useful from the rubble of Sauron's fortress, and to destroy anything that turned up. I thought it would be cool to introduce a sanity system akin to call of Cthulhu's, or a modified corruption system, for those stationed at the keep, and let the effects of being so near to what had been the focus of evil in Middle-earth to wear away at the characters. I'd still like to run that campaign.
The 4th Age for me always seemed to lack to epic feel of the first 3 ages.
For me, I would be more interested in running the big epic scenes from the 1st and 2nd Ages. It just seemed to have more passion, more world shattering events that would be quite a background (albeit metaplot) to the dragon-dodging adventures of the party. Whilst every player would know of the real events of the 3rd Age, half the fun would be playing out new possibilities and what-ifs...
Quote from: Lawbag;406223The 4th Age for me always seemed to lack to epic feel of the first 3 ages.
For me, I would be more interested in running the big epic scenes from the 1st and 2nd Ages. It just seemed to have more passion, more world shattering events that would be quite a background (albeit metaplot) to the dragon-dodging adventures of the party. Whilst every player would know of the real events of the 3rd Age, half the fun would be playing out new possibilities and what-ifs...
The First and Second Ages could be fun, but I've never found them all that interesting as the context for a game. They seem too remote to me, too filled with characters that are difficult to relate to. Still, I can understand that they would appeal to many as the setting for a game. Plus, they have a "no holds barred" feel to them - after all, whole continents get destroyed. That could be pretty cool.
The Third Age is more easy to relate to. The temptation to muddle with continuity is there. I've thought about running a campaign set in the time period from when Frodo left the Shire with the Ring until Sauron was brought down. The PCs would work for the good guys, perhaps as some of the folk Elrond sent out, since Rivendell seems like a good hub for that. The main mission would be to find and assist Frodo; Glorfindel was the one who did it in the book, but maybe the PCs could be the ones to do so. If the PCs didn't become part of the Fellowship, they could be sent to assist in any number of other hotspots. Also, I recall someone discussing how Tolkien had mentioned that the Blue Wizards had actually succeeded in their mission to the East, meaning that Sauron didn't end up getting as much help from there as he'd intended. It would be interesting to run a campaign dealing with the Blue Wizards and their allies fighting the Easterlings.
The Fourth Age strikes me as interesting for any number of reasons, many of which I mention above. It also strikes me as similar in power level and (to an extent) tone to early Greyhawk.
We spent many years playing in the Fourth Age with MERP when I was younger. It holds some of my most fond memories as a gamer. I heartily endorse any gaming in that period for all the reasons the Colonel stated :)
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406227The First and Second Ages could be fun, but I've never found them all that interesting as the context for a game. They seem too remote to me, too filled with characters that are difficult to relate to. Still, I can understand that they would appeal to many as the setting for a game. Plus, they have a "no holds barred" feel to them - after all, whole continents get destroyed. That could be pretty cool.
The Third Age is more easy to relate to. The temptation to muddle with continuity is there. I've thought about running a campaign set in the time period from when Frodo left the Shire with the Ring until Sauron was brought down. The PCs would work for the good guys, perhaps as some of the folk Elrond sent out, since Rivendell seems like a good hub for that. The main mission would be to find and assist Frodo; Glorfindel was the one who did it in the book, but maybe the PCs could be the ones to do so. If the PCs didn't become part of the Fellowship, they could be sent to assist in any number of other hotspots. Also, I recall someone discussing how Tolkien had mentioned that the Blue Wizards had actually succeeded in their mission to the East, meaning that Sauron didn't end up getting as much help from there as he'd intended. It would be interesting to run a campaign dealing with the Blue Wizards and their allies fighting the Easterlings.
The Fourth Age strikes me as interesting for any number of reasons, many of which I mention above. It also strikes me as similar in power level and (to an extent) tone to early Greyhawk.
1st and 2nd age ME is more about an epic/mythic level, when mortals and elves would challenge Morgoth directly; and balrogs were part of Morgoth's army.
I think the power level thing you talk about is a really good reason to play fourth age.
Quote from: Benoist;406163Tolkien actually worked on a Fourth Age sequel to the Lord of the Rings trilogy at some point, where darkness came back to the halls of Minas Tirith long after King Elessar's death. Shadow cults, plots to kill the king of Gondor and Arnor, and a resurgence of orcs in the wild... it was in the end deemed too dark and gritty, not heroic enough to bother...
That story is called "The New Shadow" and can be found in
The History of Middle-Earth Vol. 12.
It's not exactly set "long after King Elessar's death", but rather during the reign of Elessar's son Eldarion.
Here is what Tolkien himself said about the story:
QuoteI did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall [of Sauron], but it proved sinister and depressing. ... I could have written a 'thriller' about the [revolutionary] plot and its discovery and overthrow -- but it would be just that. Not worth doing. (P. 410)
A pity he didn't finish it! I found the 8 pages that Tolkien did write very intriguing. It certainly could serve as the premise for a great 4th Age campaign.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406147...
There are at least two great Elves still unaccounted for in the 4th Age: Daeron and Maglor. Perhaps one or the other is encountered in the East, or perhaps one or the other returns to western Middle Earth, finally weary of wandering, their pain and sorrow driving them towards the west at last. Perhaps one of them could take up residence in fading Lorien, or even in Rivendell for a time, or take up the kingship of East Lorien once Celeborn leaves...
Speaking of Maglor, Graham Staplehurst wrote a really great adventure about him for
White Dwarf in the mid-1980s. It was called "Star Spray", and included stats for both MERP and AD&D. I think that it would work splendidly in a 4th Age campaign. It's actually a 'mini-epic' adventure, i.e., a way for the PCs to become involved in one of the great stories of Middle-earth (the life of Maglor) without disrupting its history in any way (not that that would be an issue for a 4th Age campaign).
(I have a PDF of the adventure. Feel free to PM me with your e-mail address if you'd like me to send it to you.)
Another great quest for a Fourth Age Middle-earth campaign: the recovery of the lost palantiri of Arnor!
ICE designed a very good campaign based on this idea entitled 'Palantir Quest'.
More info here (http://www.icewebring.com/ICE_Products/M2/M2_2009_Palantir_Quest.php).
Quote from: tellius;406231We spent many years playing in the Fourth Age with MERP when I was younger. It holds some of my most fond memories as a gamer. I heartily endorse any gaming in that period for all the reasons the Colonel stated :)
Yeah, I ran a number of campaigns using MERP set in the Fourth Age during my high-school years. Good times!
I also ran one about a decade ago. It was less successful, thanks to one irritating player. In retrospect, I simply should have kicked him out.
Quote from: Akrasia;406247Yeah, I ran a number of campaigns using MERP set in the Fourth Age during my high-school years. Good times!
I also ran one about a decade ago. It was less successful, thanks to one irritating player. In retrospect, I simply should have kicked him out.
I still have all my MERP books sitting in my gaming shelves at home waiting for some old style playing. I might hit up the group for some nostalgia gaming this weekend.
Quote from: Akrasia;406243Another great quest for a Fourth Age Middle-earth campaign: the recovery of the lost palantiri of Arnor!
ICE designed a very good campaign based on this idea entitled 'Palantir Quest'.
More info here (http://www.icewebring.com/ICE_Products/M2/M2_2009_Palantir_Quest.php).
I actually own a copy of that. I got it new, and was stunned to see it on the store shelf when it appeared. I think it's decent enough, but I'd want to rework some of it.
4th. age setting would be great! Lots of background to draw on etc. Did some 4th age adventuring back in the day and it was neat, we were all fans of the books and used that knowledge in character for many interesting dialogues.
The only issue I take with most systems being used for this setting is in the treatment of magic. Never seems to capture the correct feel for me. One system however does come to mind that seems very appropriate and I know not many like it but 'Fantasy Wargaming' is drawn from actual magic philosophy as practiced by the Europeans during the dark Ages etc.
I know the system is a bit un-wieldy but can be culled for the feel of things if nothing else. The books support this approach as well, remember that Astrological symbols were carved into the top of Orthanc!(as related by Gandalf)
I was working on an adventure based on the Keys of Orthanc being stolen and powerful/mysterious artifacts falling into the hands of....who's to say!?
:)
Quote from: skofflox;406271The only issue I take with most systems being used for this setting is in the treatment of magic. Never seems to capture the correct feel for me. One system however does come to mind that seems very appropriate and I know not many like it but 'Fantasy Wargaming' is drawn from actual magic philosophy as practiced by the Europeans during the dark Ages etc.
I really thought the magic system used in Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG really nailed the feel of magic in the setting, and was meticulous in sourcing everything with direct quotes from the book. I was pretty impressed.
I used to have the game you mention, but it's been long years since I had it.
I disagree that the Decipher game nailed the magic feel of Middle-earth (I guess that might make me a Tolkienian Nazi in the eyes of some), BUT I have to say, having run the game as my wife's very first role playing game session, it is a really nice take on the whole thing, if you're not looking too closely at the accuracy of its emulation. The main thing, to me, is that it's easy to grasp and run. It's a very smooth game, and that's what made it a winner as far as her introduction to RPGs was concerned.
Quote from: Benoist;406281I disagree that the Decipher game nailed the magic feel of Middle-earth
How so?
EDIT: I ask because it was the first RPG magic system that I felt fit the setting. MERP didn't come close, D&D was just as far off, and stuff like Ars Magica seemed to work from a different paradigm.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406284How so?
Well, starting with the fact you actually *could* play a spellcaster per se without being an Istari yourself... ;)
Quote from: Benoist;406281BUT I have to say, having run the game as my wife's very first role playing game session, it is a really nice take on the whole thing, if you're not looking too closely at the accuracy of its emulation. The main thing, to me, is that it's easy to grasp and run. It's a very smooth game, and that's what made it a winner as far as her introduction to RPGs was concerned.
I thought from the first time I read the game, and on through when I ran it, that it would be a wonderful epic fantasy RPG divested on its ties to Middle-earth. Y'know, there are a lot of swords & sorcery RPGs, including D&D and all the recent clones of old school D&D, and lots of games that try to be "gritty," but there aren't many games that focus on epic or "high" fantasy.
I don't mean magic-heavy settings, or twee, vaguely Celtic fantasies about characters trying to find themselves, or settings where the characters are all morally ambivalent and act like "real" people, but epics precisely like the Lord of the Rings, where good and evil exist and there are clear-cut heroes, and they exist in a world where all that stuff matters and actually has an impact upon the fabric of the world.
Quote from: Benoist;406287Well, starting with the fact you actually *could* play a spellcaster per se without being an Istari yourself... ;)
There were hints of magic-users who were non-Istari. Queen Beruthiel, for one. The Black Numenoreans seemed to have used evil magic - note the Mouth of Sauron. Plus elves use magic as others use technology. I know what you're saying, but it's not as clear-cut to me that only Istari could be spellcasters. Besides, it makes the game a little more fun.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406289There were hints of magic-users who were non-Istari. Queen Beruthiel, for one. The Black Numenoreans seemed to have used evil magic - note the Mouth of Sauron. Plus elves use magic as others use technology. I know what you're saying, but it's not as clear-cut to me that only Istari could be spellcasters. Besides, it makes the game a little more fun.
Well that's kind of my point though: I agree with you that the use of magic -mostly sorcery or dark magic- is hinted that for some prominent characters of legend (there's the Witch King too, by the way), but it's either hinted at, JUST hinted at, which might be just legend, or hearsay, or what people don't understand which they dub "magic" just as they would the crafts of the elves, or Aragorn's healing gifts, or they are some sort of supernatural nature inherent to the creatures or characters that exude them, like the way the Nazgul inspire fear to the heart, the way the name of the Dark Lord attracts its attention, and so on, so forth.
My point is, magic in the Lord of the Rings is either legend, part of the fabric of the word, or both. Even the Istari function this way, at least as far as Saruman and his voice, or Radagast with his gifts with animals, go. Only Gandalf seems to be the one confronted with circumstances where his powers have to obviously come forward (edit - another one would be Melian, though her magic is very much part of her nature as well, as it contrasts with Elu Thingol and shapes the very nature of Doriath). But then again, it's part of the very nature of Olorin to play with fire, light, and inspire people to look for hope in the darkest of hours.
What I'm saying is, sure, you can like Decipher's magic system and find it cool for game play. As I said, I really like the game myself. But when you say they "nailed the magic feel", NAILED it, mind you, I have to answer specifically: no, they did not. :)
Quote from: Benoist;406298What I'm saying is, sure, you can like Decipher's magic system and find it cool for game play. As I said, I really like the game myself. But when you say they "nailed the magic feel", NAILED it, mind you, I have to answer specifically: no, they did not. :)
OK, then take away non-Istari using it. When I first read the magic system, and when I used it in play, I always had in mind whether or not I could see Gandalf doing any of the things the system makes possible. I couldn't find fault at all - he had used most of the non-evil magic in the books, or if he hadn't, it seemed to have been well-extrapolated. So I thought it nailed it. I'm a stickler when it comes to the Lord of the Rings, so I don't easily come to such conclusions. Take that for what it is, which isn't much, I admit.
Heh, I'll say one thing though: Decipher's magic is at least inspired from what the people of Middle-earth do in the books and the movies. It's not like MERP's system which was shoehorned into Middle-earth (if that) from RoleMaster, and really didn't work that well for it from the very start. What was that supplement that detailed Celebrimbor and the site where the rings were forged during the Second Age? They were statting Annatar as some uber Level 300 Mentalist or something. LOL
Quote from: Benoist;406303What was that supplement that detailed Celebrimbor and the site where the rings were forged during the Second Age? They were statting Annatar as some uber Level 300 Mentalist or something. LOL
You're thinking of Lorien and the Halls of the Elven Smiths.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406304You're thinking of Lorien and the Halls of the Elven Smiths.
Yes, this is it. I mean, the background and all, though not "canon" per se... well, it was awesome.
But the MERP stats man... that was awful. :D
Quote from: Benoist;406305Yes, this is it. I mean, the background and all, though not "canon" per se... well, it was awesome. But the MERP stats man... that was awful.
Yeah, I see what you're saying. The powerful characters were REALLY REALLY powerful, and the characters who were not powerful were, by comparison, nothing.
You know, thinking about Middle-earth a little bit, I think 4E could work well with a First Age game where the PCs are literally inspired (power sources) by the Valar.
Quote from: Benoist;406307You know, thinking about Middle-earth a little bit, I think 4E could work well with a First Age game where the PCs are literally inspired (power sources) by the Valar.
I played in a Dawnforge 4e campaign and it was awesome. Dawnforge is by Fantasy Flight Games and its JRR's First Age with the serial numbers filed off just as Midnight is FFG's "what if Frodo failed" setting. Worth a look.
If you want an RPG that feels very JRR FauxTolk, I highly suggest the Fantasia RPG. I was quite impressed. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12068.phtml
If you go to the New Dimension Games website, there are plenty of freebies to check out to see what you think.
Quote from: Benoist;406287Well, starting with the fact you actually *could* play a spellcaster per se without being an Istari yourself... ;)
In addition to the 'evil' spellcasters mentioned by Colonel Hardisson (the mortal sorcerers who went on to become the Mouth of Sauron, the Witchking, and others), there were 'good' folks like '
Malbeth the Seer', who made numerous prophesies, including those concerning the fall of Arthedain (it was because of Malbeth's prediction that the last king of Arthedain was named 'Arvedui', which means 'last king'; the prophesy implied that either Arthedain would fall or be reunited with Gondor -- both of which turned out to be correct, just a 1000 years apart). Numenoreans in the Second Age could communicate mentally with their horses. Weapons of 'Westernesse' (of Numenorean and Dunedain creation) seem to have mystical or special powers against the undead (wights, etc.). I'm sure that there other examples of Numenorean/Dunedain 'special abilities' or 'magic' that I'm forgetting.
With respect to non-Dunedain/Numenoreans, we have the Beornings, with their ability to shift from human form into bear form. The Woses seem to have certain shamanic abilities (the 'pukel men'), but that is only hinted at (as far as I am aware).
The dwarves in
The Hobbit cast runes on their treasure to protect it. They possess many wondrous items (the Arkenstone, etc.).
My point simply is that there is evidence in Tolkien's writings for humans (and dwarves) with special or 'magical' abilities. However, aside from the crafting of special items (swords of Westernesse, runes, etc.), these abilities seem largely to be 'inherited' or 'intrinsic' in nature, much like those of the Istari. (And in contrast, perhaps, to the powers of evil sorcerers and the like.)
I'm not sure how one would translate that into game terms. I do think that it's not worth fretting over -- I doubt very much that Tolkien
himself had a very clear 'magical system' in mind when writing his tales (and there are some inconsistencies: for instance, magic seems far more ubiquitous in
The Hobbit than
The LotR).
Ultimately, a Middle-earth RPG in which the only 'good guys' who could use magic were the Istari would
be damn boring, at least for me. :) (And I think it would get Middle-earth very wrong, as well.)
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406261I actually own a copy of that. I got it new, and was stunned to see it on the store shelf when it appeared. I think it's decent enough, but I'd want to rework some of it.
You're right that it's not perfect. (Among other things, it suffers from having too many spellcasters and magic items, like most of ICE's Middle-earth modules. Bit that's easy to fix.)
The essentials, though, are quite good IMO. An epic quest, with lots of twists and options, and a decent nemesis. Like you, I think that some things should be changed, but overall a good basis for a 4th Age campaign.
Another 'idea seed' for a Fourth Age campaign:
QuoteIn a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two [Istari -- i.e., the 'Blue Wizards']," since they were not concerned in the history of the North-west of Middle-earth. "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and magic traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
(Note 3, page 418, from the essay "The Essay" in
Unfinished Tales, bold added by me.)
Actualy, the Middle Earth (Third Age) never seemed too much "High Fantasy" to me, at last in the RPG sense. Let me explain: it's a setting with VERY few "personal" magic, where only a handfull of legendary individuals can use the arcane forces; same for magic items, there are only a few, rare and dangerous to use; ¿Monsters? Scarce, hidden and very powerful.
I always think the Third Age as a dark and gritty era of fallen kingdoms, vast wilderness and lost treasures, with an epic past and a uncertain future. Despite the "good vs evil" theme and the epic main story of TLotR, it works fine as a setting for Sword & Sorcery adventures for me (not all S&S has to be about thieves, barbarians and exotic realms ;)) Moreso the Fourth Age, i think.
Quote from: Akrasia;406329In addition to the 'evil' spellcasters mentioned by Colonel Hardisson (the mortal sorcerers who went on to become the Mouth of Sauron, the Witchking, and others), there were 'good' folks like 'Malbeth the Seer', who made numerous prophesies, including those concerning the fall of Arthedain (it was because of Malbeth's prediction that the last king of Arthedain was named 'Arvedui', which means 'last king'; the prophesy implied that either Arthedain would fall or be reunited with Gondor -- both of which turned out to be correct, just a 1000 years apart). Numenoreans in the Second Age could communicate mentally with their horses. Weapons of 'Westernesse' (of Numenorean and Dunedain creation) seem to have mystical or special powers against the undead (wights, etc.). I'm sure that there other examples of Numenorean/Dunedain 'special abilities' or 'magic' that I'm forgetting.
With respect to non-Dunedain/Numenoreans, we have the Beornings, with their ability to shift from human form into bear form. The Woses seem to have certain shamanic abilities (the 'pukel men'), but that is only hinted at (as far as I am aware).
The dwarves in The Hobbit cast runes on their treasure to protect it. They possess many wondrous items (the Arkenstone, etc.).
My point simply is that there is evidence in Tolkien's writings for humans (and dwarves) with special or 'magical' abilities. However, aside from the crafting of special items (swords of Westernesse, runes, etc.), these abilities seem largely to be 'inherited' or 'intrinsic' in nature, much like those of the Istari. (And in contrast, perhaps, to the powers of evil sorcerers and the like.)
I'm not sure how one would translate that into game terms. I do think that it's not worth fretting over -- I doubt very much that Tolkien himself had a very clear 'magical system' in mind when writing his tales (and there are some inconsistencies: for instance, magic seems far more ubiquitous in The Hobbit than The LotR).
Ultimately, a Middle-earth RPG in which the only 'good guys' who could use magic were the Istari would be damn boring, at least for me. :) (And I think it would get Middle-earth very wrong, as well.)
I do think it is worth fretting over. Akrasia, your points are very well taken and all of this is critical...and worth fretting over.
Some of the points you make are really the focal ones to making sure the game feels the right way.
* A large use on artificing for magic...much magic is placed into items.
--see morgul knives, as well as the items of westernesse,
--see Glamdring and Ocrist, from Gondolin
--See Moon runes, from the Hobbit.
--See Ithildin, the mithril ink used to create star and moon lettters.
--I'm now remembering a dozen more. One that really sticks out is the 'Silent Watchers' in the tower of Cirith Ungol, as both guards and with their power over the wills of others.
* Prophecy/augury used regularly. Magic of insight.
* the presense of the Wraithworld (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/wraithworld.html), which we got mostly from Frodo when he was wearing the ring. Based on how Glorfindel appears there, I see it as more of a positive and negative energy plane (to put in into game terms). I think this is aprt of all magic, as Gandalf mentions a few times that he is trying to avoid much magic as he knows it will be percieved by others.
*more traditional spells are mentioned, and in terms that indicate more users than merely the Istari/Maiar. The following infers human and orc magic, as well as elven.
"Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrin Took', said Gandalf. 'But if that does not shatter them, and I am allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words.
'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."
as well as
""I could think of nothing to do but put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength."
This (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html) does an excellent job quoting same.
Quote from: LordVreeg;406341'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."
Wow, now that's a quote I'd totally overlooked. Good catch, and thanks for the link!
Quote from: Akrasia;406329My point simply is that there is evidence in Tolkien's writings for humans (and dwarves) with special or 'magical' abilities. However, aside from the crafting of special items (swords of Westernesse, runes, etc.), these abilities seem largely to be 'inherited' or 'intrinsic' in nature, much like those of the Istari. (And in contrast, perhaps, to the powers of evil sorcerers and the like.)
I'm not sure how one would translate that into game terms. I do think that it's not worth fretting over -- I doubt very much that Tolkien himself had a very clear 'magical system' in mind when writing his tales (and there are some inconsistencies: for instance, magic seems far more ubiquitous in The Hobbit than The LotR).
Ultimately, a Middle-earth RPG in which the only 'good guys' who could use magic were the Istari would be damn boring, at least for me. :) (And I think it would get Middle-earth very wrong, as well.)
All good points, but that is it again - we're speaking of special traits of these characters that legends talk about as some sort of "magic", or abilities that were intrinsic to the individuals in questions. It's not like "casting spells" and such. It's more like gifts, or special abilities coming from who these people are, rather than stuff they learned in tomes, commit to memory etc.
I'm not sure Tolkien didn't have an idea of what "magic" was or could be. I think he was more thinking on a case by case basis, with a specific explanation to say, the blades of the dunedain, or Aragorn's healing gifts, Elrond's knowledge, etc. Some of them willingly shrouded in mystery, the obvious one being Tom Bombadil.
You might not feel like it's worth fretting over - that's alright, but personally, I do have to take a step back each time I play an LOTR RPG because none of them ever came close to emulating the world. Yes, I had tons of fun playing MERP, had fun running the Decipher game, so ultimately, you're right, I'm validating your claim. But still. I'd like one day for an "actual" LOTR role playing game to do the job right. I'm sure would have a lot of fun in the process, for sure.
Quote from: LordVreeg;406341"Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrin Took', said Gandalf. 'But if that does not shatter them, and I am allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words.
'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind."
as well as
""I could think of nothing to do but put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength."
This (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html) does an excellent job quoting same.
Interesting link! I'll look into that.
It strikes me that with Sauron and, presumably, most of his major lieutenants gone, the use of magic could come out of the shadows, so to speak. The Fourth Age could be a time of more open use of magic, at least by the forces of good. The servants of shadow would have to skulk around, hiding their magical knowledge until they are able to strike from a position of strength.
This could be the basis of a campaign, as the PCs would be charged with tracking down practitioners of the dark arts. I could see Aragorn himself gathering together teams to hunt down and root out diehard servants of Sauron. This allows for a variety of open-ended adventures, with the PCs having to check in at Minas Tirith as times, and roaming around Middle-earth the rest of the time.
There is also the matter of what kinds of foes the PCs would battle. The Nazgul are gone, but surely some of Sauron's captains survived. This is one I created a good while back for that Fourth Age campaign I discussed earlier:
QuoteUzluk, a Fourth Age NPC
One of the last products of Sauron's vile breeding programs, Uzluk is a monstrous orc groomed as a general for one of the Dark Lord's legions. When the Dark One and his Wraiths were defeated, Uzluk's legion was one of those still held within Mordor as reserves. Though most of Sauron's vast army evaporated as a result of the dismay and confusion his destruction caused, Uzluk was able to lash his troops back into a disciplined force. Uzluk saw that he now had a chance to carve a kingdom of his own, but not here, and not now. He and his staff drove his troops mercilessly south and east, in order to bide time and find lands more easily conquered than Gondor. Smashing into the now-disorganized lands around the Sea of Rhun, he quickly seized a number of fortresses and set about creating an empire. This empire eventually became a formidable opponent for King Elessar and King Eomer when they came to tame Gondor's eastern enemies, and even caused trouble into the reign of Elessar's son, Eldarion.
Uzluk is a cunning and ruthless orc. He is surprisingly learned, and actually can speak and read Quenya and Sindarin, as well as Westron and the Black Speech. He is fiercely loyal to his orcs, but is continually frustrated by their lack of education and vision. He has a surprising amount of respect for King Elessar, whom he holds in something akin to awe. Uzluk's empire is modelled after Gondor, to an extent; yet in the place of Elves, he welcomes and venerates Black Numenoreans, especially those familiar with the use of the black arts. He commissioned these renegade Dunedain to construct for him a powerful weapon, a mighty axe which inflicts horrific burning wounds. As fear-inducing as Uzluk is, especially with his huge axe aflame, he continually feels hunted, knowing that it is only a matter of time before Elessar and his shining armies head south to confront him. In fact, it is the image of a hunter, mounted on a shining steed, that fills his dreams at night.
I was finally able to dig up the notes I made about the premise of "The Ruins of Barad-dur" campaign:
QuoteIt is as if the Dark Lord still haunts his land. It is known that his servants certainly do. Orcs, Trolls, and various factions of evil Men vie for the control of the remnants of the great armies of Mordor. Ghosts, both of Sauron's servants and his enemies - many of whom endured great and long torment in the bowels of Barad-dur - walk this dark land also. Wargs and even fouler creatures roam Mordor, directionless with Sauron's passing, but ruthless and deadly nonetheless. It should also not be forgotten that strange and horrid things still haunt the Ephel Duath, ready to pounce upon those who enter the dark land of Mordor.
Gondor has built a small fortress near the ruins of the Dark Lord's fortress. It is there to guard the ruins, provide a base for expeditions into those ruins, and to be a picket in case any remaining servants of Sauron decide to congregate in force.
The fortress was built using stone hauled in from Gondor. This is because the few remaining keeps near Barad-dur that were intact after the fall of Sauron were so infused with evil that not even the hardiest Gondorian garrison could long abide being in them. Headaches, nightmares, and a general malaise sapped morale. Troops returning from their tour of duty in those places were listless and depressed for months afterward.
King Elessar, concerned for his soldiers, but wanting to ensure that the ruins of the great fortress were not looted by evil beings looking for some of Sauron's powerful artifacts, decided to have a small castle and keep specially built. Dwarves were hired to assist engineers from Minas Tirith, and Durin's folk seemed grimly pleased to be building a fortress in the very face of the Dark Lord's seat of power. Good, clean stone was shipped in great caravans, and the building of the fortress took less than a year.
Teams of explorers, specially commissioned, are examined by the King himself to determine their trustworthiness. They are then sent to various parts of the ruins of Barad-dur, based on their training and experience. So far, only some few pieces of Sauron's vast treasury and armory have been discovered, most of which was so tainted as to necessitate destroying them. Yet the King richly rewards those who return with such items. It is known the King takes a keen interest in the discovery of the palantir once used by Sauron. Though it is now so touched by Sauron's evil as to be worthless to any sane person, the King does not want such an artifact to fall into the hands of Sauron's one-time servants.
There are some few bold adventurers who prowl amongst the ruins outside the approval of King Elessar. Mordor is a vast and darkened land, and the ruins of Barad-dur are also large and spread out. Even the largest, most alert garrison could not prevent the trespass of all those adventurers who sought the ruins. Some come simply to line their own pockets, but many of Sauron's minions covet the wealth they know to remain in the shattered fortress. These miscreants slip amongst the shadows, endeavoring to elude the alert garrison of Gondor.
Here are backgrounds for a couple of Fourth Age NPCs I did a long while back; one is more of a patron, obviously, while the other could be used as a PC:
QuoteEldarion, the son of King Elessar, circa Fourth Age 120, just prior to Elessar's passing
"And Eldarion our son is a man full-ripe for kingship." - Elessar to Arwen, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Appendix A, The Return of the King
Little of Eldarion is told of by Tolkien. The fact that his father had full confidence in his ability to rule speaks volumes, though. It can also be assumed that he bore no small resemblance to his father both physically and in temperament, and also bore the Elven wisdom of his mother. Although the line of Isildur no longer needed to dwell in secrecy, wandering the wilderness, it is likely that Eldarion did much in the way of errantry throughout Middle Earth. This probably included riding with the sons of Elrond, rooting out and destroying evil where it still held sway. He also probably accompanied his father on some of the King's campaigns to the East and South, at least the less dangerous ones; it wouldn't do to risk the line of Isildur being completely extinguished in one swoop. Still, Eldarion would have learned much of the ways of Kingship by watching his father, and his father's friends, such as King Eomer, or such noble vassals as Faramir and Imrahil.
Finanar, a Fourth Age Elf
A veteran of Celeborn's strike against Dol Guldur, Finanar is one of the Elves that braved the horrors of that dark fortress when its walls were thrown down by Galadriel.
Finanar is grim, as Elves go, especially Silvan Elves. He is one of a handful of Elves who volunteered to help Gondor explore and secure the area around Barad-dur, now fallen into ruin after Sauron's destruction. Finanar loves the stars, even more so than Elves usually do, and can often be found silently meditating upon them deep into the night. Occasionally he will sing soft songs of lament, in memory of the Lady Galadriel, now passed over the Sea. He longs to return to Lorien, even now that it is fading, but feels there is still evil to be vanquished, evil that cannot be allowed to grow again. So, now he and his Elves help bolster Gondor's struggle to subdue its old enemies.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;406418It strikes me that with Sauron and, presumably, most of his major lieutenants gone, the use of magic could come out of the shadows, so to speak. The Fourth Age could be a time of more open use of magic, at least by the forces of good.
Don't forget the the treasure of ancient and forbidden arcane lore hidden by Saruman in the vaults of Isengard, waiting for brave scholar-adventurers to discover it and bring, at last, the power of magic to the hands of Men.
Quote from: LordVreeg;406341I do think it is worth fretting over. Akrasia, your points are very well taken and all of this is critical...and worth fretting over.
I didn't mean to sound flippant. My point simply was that finding the 'perfect system' for the magic of Middle-earth seems like an impossible task, given that I doubt that Tolkien himself had any coherent overarching 'system' in mind when writing his books.
Rather, one should find or create a system that comes 'close enough' to capturing the feel of the magic of Middle-earth for the purposes of the game, in light of one's own interpretation of Middle-earth.
Quote from: LordVreeg;406341This (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html) does an excellent job quoting same.
Very nice! Thanks for the link. :)
Quote from: Akrasia;407504I didn't mean to sound flippant. My point simply was that finding the 'perfect system' for the magic of Middle-earth seems like an impossible task, given that I doubt that Tolkien himself had any coherent overarching 'system' in mind when writing his books.
Rather, one should find or create a system that comes 'close enough' to capturing the feel of the magic of Middle-earth for the purposes of the game, in light of one's own interpretation of Middle-earth.
:)
I think I can come up with a system to model anything. Or at least, I tell myself that.
Quote from: LordVreeg;406153I totally agree that this is one of the best ways to go about using a middle earth setting.
...
What kind of system would you use, to really capture the essence of this?
I am curious to know what folks here think about the 'Lord of the Rings Adventure Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Rings_Adventure_Game)' -- the 'starter' or 'basic' game put out by
ICE in the early 1990s, and also used by ICE for their 'Middle-earth Quest' solo advanture books in the late 1980s.
In contrast to MERP, the magic system seems very low-key in nature, a better fit for Middle-earth overall (though probably not 'perfect').
One advantage of the LotRAG is that the later ICE Middle-earth modules included LotRAG stats in the back, along with stats for MERP. (At least this is an advantage for me!)
There also is a fan-produced 'expanded' version of LotRAG called 'Middle-Earth Adventure Game' ('MEAG') available over at MERP.com. Apparently MEAG is fully compatible with LotRAG (it simply gives players and GMs more options and detail).
Quote from: Akrasia;407569I am curious to know what folks here think about the 'Lord of the Rings Adventure Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Rings_Adventure_Game)' -- the 'starter' or 'basic' game put out by ICE in the early 1990s, and also used by ICE for their 'Middle-earth Quest' solo advanture books in the late 1980s.
I never got a chance to look at any of them. I never saw them on shelves when they were in print, and thus never even knew they existed until much, much later. The same goes for a lot of the late-era MERP books and supplements - I don't think 90% of them ever made it to store shelves in my area, and I'm still finding MERP books online that I don't recognize. In addition, most of them are going for prices I'm not willing to pay now. It was a total fluke for me to find "Palantir Quest" when I did.
Quote from: Akrasia;407569I am curious to know what folks here think about the 'Lord of the Rings Adventure Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Rings_Adventure_Game)' -- the 'starter' or 'basic' game put out by ICE in the early 1990s, and also used by ICE for their 'Middle-earth Quest' solo advanture books in the late 1980s.
In contrast to MERP, the magic system seems very low-key in nature, a better fit for Middle-earth overall (though probably not 'perfect').
One advantage of the LotRAG is that the later ICE Middle-earth modules included LotRAG stats in the back, along with stats for MERP. (At least this is an advantage for me!)
There also is a fan-produced 'expanded' version of LotRAG called 'Middle-Earth Adventure Game' ('MEAG') available over at MERP.com. Apparently MEAG is fully compatible with LotRAG (it simply gives players and GMs more options and detail).
Wouldn't mind checking MEAG out, but it won't let me DL it without registering, and when I try to register it just keeps kicking me back to the registration screen without going through. Ah well.
Quote from: Sigmund;408027Wouldn't mind checking MEAG out, but it won't let me DL it without registering, and when I try to register it just keeps kicking me back to the registration screen without going through. Ah well.
PM me with your e-mail address if you'd like me to send you a copy. :)
I've been putting a good bit of thought into writing a large-scale adventure set in the early Fourth Age. To me, one of the most obvious adventures is the recovery of the palantiri that were lost. Thing is, while I think Palantir Quest is a decent adventure, I wouldn't want to write anything like it. There would obviously be some overlap in some cases, at least in a superficial sense - I think players are going to want to run across some Rohirrim, visit Minas Tirith, fight some orcs, and rub shoulders with some of Middle-earth's best-known personalities, as well as any number of other possibilities.
My own druthers would be to have the ultimate object of the quest be to delve into the crumbled remains of Barad-dur to recover Sauron's stone. It couldn't be used, obviously, but I would imagine Aragorn would want to secure the stone and keep it out of the hands of evil, whether a surviving lieutenant of the Dark Lord or an independent operator - or both. I think the quest could involve finding a way to destroy the stone, but I dig the idea of trying to cleanse it. That seems unlikely, given the fate of the stone Denethor used. There is also the stone lost from Osgiliath to consider.
Well, I now feel like a really strange bird, because I had no problem with the magic system of MERP (though I like better the Decipher's and I agre with Colonel's POV). I think that the secret of making the magic feel tolkienian lays more on the F/X description than in the concrete mechanics.
Many of the spells in MERP are really functional, skill-enhancing effects. They let you make something mundane better, before moving into wall - running and all that. Many of those spells need not to be visible, or have F/X associated. It's been more than a decade since I ran MERP, I think, but there were few spells that were hard to work in. Also, the rules of spell detection really stuck close to the book, to that Gandalf quote of he not wanting to go berserk with magic lest he be discovered.
And the gritty system really felt like Middle-Earth, as did the portrait of races and cultures. Seriously, I don't get the complaints on the game. I think that Decipher's CODA game has an even more pronounced literary feel, but MERP did a bang - up job for us emulating ME, and we also played a lot of modules and found them excellent and very ME. Again, I feel a lot came by the way I described magic, traps and treasure. Even with high level PCs, using frequent spells, magic still felt low-key, personal, and they had to use it carefully (spell detection rules can be a bitch).
Quote from: Imperator;408402And the gritty system really felt like Middle-Earth
If you mean the combat system, all I can say is that Tolkien didn't write any graphic descriptions of the effects of battle damage. That's why it doesn't seem like a good game for the setting.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408436If you mean the combat system, all I can say is that Tolkien didn't write any graphic descriptions of the effects of battle damage. That's why it doesn't seem like a good game for the setting.
Yep, I meant the combat system (and the rest of the system), but not due to graphic descriptions. JRRT's best point was not, definitely, the description of combat.
By gritty I mean "people can die in one single blow." Combat is fearsome, and terrifying, not something to be taken lightly. I liked that from MERP, and our combats were fast-paced, furious and tense. We loved that.
Quote from: Imperator;408440Yep, I meant the combat system (and the rest of the system), but not due to graphic descriptions. JRRT's best point was not, definitely, the description of combat.
By gritty I mean "people can die in one single blow." Combat is fearsome, and terrifying, not something to be taken lightly. I liked that from MERP, and our combats were fast-paced, furious and tense. We loved that.
I see what you're saying. It's cool it works for you and your group. For me and mine back in the 80s when we first tried it, it really turned us off the game as an engine for playing in Middle-earth. We were intrigued by it as a system for a less epic setting, but we only messed with it for a relatively short while that way.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408443I see what you're saying. It's cool it works for you and your group. For me and mine back in the 80s when we first tried it, it really turned us off the game as an engine for playing in Middle-earth. We were intrigued by it as a system for a less epic setting, but we only messed with it for a relatively short while that way.
Cool.
Really, I feel that you can get a great ME game with almost any system, with at most some tweaking. I've seen people running great ME games, full of flavour, using BRP. OD&D, WHFRP, RM, CODA, FATE, Pendragon and many others. I found all of them interesting for each one enhanced a different part of the setting, a different flavour.
Actually, after reading the excellent Grey Elf's Hyborian OD&D game, I toyed with writing a ME version for S&W. It should not be too much work, but between launching two different businesses, my practice in psychotherapy, and running a weekly CoC game and a random RQ game, time has become scarce.
I think that ME has the great advantage of being a very robust setting, that can be well emulated with a vast array of systems. As someone said, I can even envision a 4e game set on the Silmarillion age. Kill Balrogs and trolls left and right, as Húrin did. I'm totally over that.
Said this, I find this thread really enlightening, and I really get the criticism against MERP. I don't find it absurd, it is just a different experience. For us, MERP oozed middle-earthiness, from the very chargen, with the ample descriptions of races and cultures. Then it came CODA and it poured middle-earthiness over us, and we were happier :D
Quote from: Imperator;408466Cool.
Really, I feel that you can get a great ME game with almost any system, with at most some tweaking. I've seen people running great ME games, full of flavour, using BRP. OD&D, WHFRP, RM, CODA, FATE, Pendragon and many others. I found all of them interesting for each one enhanced a different part of the setting, a different flavour.
That's a good point. The more I think about it, the more I agree that just about any RPG could be used for Middle-earth, especially after some tweaking. Hell, I can see HackMaster being used for it.
Quote from: Imperator;408466Actually, after reading the excellent Grey Elf's Hyborian OD&D game, I toyed with writing a ME version for S&W. It should not be too much work, but between launching two different businesses, my practice in psychotherapy, and running a weekly CoC game and a random RQ game, time has become scarce.
That's understandable.
Quote from: Imperator;408466I think that ME has the great advantage of being a very robust setting, that can be well emulated with a vast array of systems.
Agreed. I think "robust" is a good word to describe it. There are high-powered elements and characters that would work well with games like 4e D&D. There are aspects of the setting that Pendragon could emulate. RuneQuest or GURPS, each being more skill-based than games like D&D, would fit. The CODA system was a good balance of skills and class-based systems. MERP I will say this about - I did like the way the races were depicted. I also dig MERP for just how comprehensively it covered the setting - the race/monster/item books are great references.
Quote from: Imperator;408466As someone said, I can even envision a 4e game set on the Silmarillion age. Kill Balrogs and trolls left and right, as Húrin did. I'm totally over that.
I think 4e could handle both the low and the high-powered aspects of the setting. My experience with running 4e showed that PCs are more fragile at low levels than they appear.
Quote from: Imperator;408466Said this, I find this thread really enlightening, and I really get the criticism against MERP. I don't find it absurd, it is just a different experience. For us, MERP oozed middle-earthiness, from the very chargen, with the ample descriptions of races and cultures. Then it came CODA and it poured middle-earthiness over us, and we were happier :D
I can see where you're coming from concerning MERP's chargen.
I also think CODA is a fantastic translation of the setting into game terms.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408436If you mean the combat system, all I can say is that Tolkien didn't write any graphic descriptions of the effects of battle damage. That's why it doesn't seem like a good game for the setting.
While I think that you're correct that Tolkien did not regularly indulge in "graphic descriptions of battle damage," he
did do so sometimes.
Consider the following three quotes:
QuoteThere as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset.
Last of all Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgot, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which cling to him though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them
[From
The Silmarillion, "The Fifth Battle," p. 238.]
Quote...the orcs were dismayed by the fierceness of the defence. Legolas shot two through the throat. Gimli hewed the legs from another that had sprung up on Balin's tomb...
[
The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm," p. 385.]
QuoteLike a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor, and beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield, as smiths hewing the hot bending iron. At Pippin's side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down.
Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath him. Blackness and stench and crushing pain game upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.
[
The Return of the King, "The Black Gate Opens," p. 187.]
If I had more time I could dig up more quotes. :)
Now, IMO, those scenes could have come directly from a few sessions of MERP combat. We have critical hits (e.g., "Huron fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye"; "Legolas shot two through the throat"; "the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came rushing out"), and a character being stunned ("Beregond was stunned").
Consequently, I think that the MERP combat system does a pretty good job in capturing the nature of combat in Middle-earth. But then my interpretation of Middle-earth is that it's a relatively gritty place (even though this may be glossed over occasionally by Tolkien, when describing large-scale battles). I suppose that it's possible to interpret Middle-earth differently, but it has never struck me as place where bones don't go crack when hit by an orcish hammer. (
The Hobbit, as a children's novel, is a bit different, of course.)
My only complaint with the MERP combat system (aside from the difficulty of keeping track of bleeding damage, stuns, etc., for multiple foes) is that player characters can die too easily. So if I were to use MERP again, I probably would introduce a simple 'fate point' system (PCs start with three fate points and, by spending one, can 'reroll' a result, including a critical hit against them, etc.).
Quote from: Imperator;408402...Also, the rules of spell detection really stuck close to the book, to that Gandalf quote of he not wanting to go berserk with magic lest he be discovered.
...
Even with high level PCs, using frequent spells, magic still felt low-key, personal, and they had to use it carefully (spell detection rules can be a bitch).
This is a good point. If the GM actually used the "Spell Use Risk Table" (ST-12) in MERP, PCs would be
very reluctant to cast 'flashy' spells (e.g., fireballs).
I think that part of MERP's bad reputation for being too "high magic" comes from GMs failing to apply the Risk Factor rules to spells.
Quote from: Imperator;408402...I think that Decipher's CODA game has an even more pronounced literary feel...
Quote from: Imperator;408466...Then it came CODA and it poured middle-earthiness over us, and we were happier :D
I suppose that I'm the "odd man out" with respect to CODA LotR. I don't like it at all. I would run MERP long before I'd ever run Decipher's game.
I bought the game when it first came out. I was irritated by the use of movie stills for almost all of the art.
But I was especially annoyed that it took me forever to figure out how to create a character (I'm still not sure that I ever got it right). Eventually Decipher had to put up a PDF on character creation, but by that time I had written off the game, thanks to certain absurd features of the combat system, and other bugs.
I can see why some people think that there is a 'seed' of a good game in there somewhere. And I can appreciate that the magic system seemed to do a better job than MERP in capturing the 'feel' of Middle-earth.
But the core book simply was not well edited, and included too many core mechanical problems for me to bother with it.
Hopefully Cubicle 7 will do a better job with their forthcoming
The One Ring Middle-earth RPG. Among other things, C7 seems to be extensively playtesting it.
Quote from: Imperator;408440...By gritty I mean "people can die in one single blow."...
Yes, I think that this is an important feature of combat in Middle-earth. Even Smaug was felled by a single arrow (okay, it was Bard's possibly magical "black arrow", but still!).
Quote from: Akrasia;408505Consequently, I think that the MERP combat system does a pretty good job in capturing the nature of combat in Middle-earth.
I see where you're coming from, but I still think the MERP crit tables get too graphic to suit the setting. Yeah, Tolkien writes of characters shot through the eye or throat, but he doesn't get into the more specific stuff found on the MERP tables (shot through the kidneys, paralyzed from the neck down, etc.). It's a matter of taste and interpretation.
Quote from: Akrasia;408507I suppose that I'm the "odd man out" with respect to CODA LotR. I don't like it at all. I would run MERP long before I'd ever run Decipher's game.
I liked Decipher's game a lot because it ran like "d20 Light," except using 2d6.
Quote from: Akrasia;408507I bought the game when it first came out. I was irritated by the use of movie stills for almost all of the art.
I expected them to do that, but it still grated on me. It's too bad Decipher never found its Angus McBride or Hildebrandt Brothers. The monster/magic book had a lot of original art, which was passable, but not very inspiring.
Quote from: Akrasia;408507But I was especially annoyed that it took me forever to figure out how to create a character (I'm still not sure that I ever got it right). Eventually Decipher had to put up a PDF on character creation, but by that time I had written off the game, thanks to certain absurd features of the combat system, and other bugs.
Yes, the book was badly organized. Once things were clarified, it made things a lot easier for some. I never had a lot of trouble; I read the book thoroughly, pored over the index and table of contents, and made notes for myself. That's not to lord it over anyone; I totally get that the book was poorly organized.
The only absurd feature of the combat system that I found was the "death spiral." Once a character or monster was damaged enough to drop a wound level, I found that the outcome of battle was a foregone conclusion. Not once did such a character or monster rally to win. The main problem was that it became kind of pathetic to watch combat grind on for several more rounds as a wounded troll flailed weakly at the PCs, with no real chance of hitting. I think the system has potential, but this has to be fixed.
Quote from: Akrasia;408507I can see why some people think that there is a 'seed' of a good game in there somewhere. And I can appreciate that the magic system seemed to do a better job than MERP in capturing the 'feel' of Middle-earth.
There was so much that felt right to me about the game. The Orders, the way races were detailed, and traits and flaws stood out to me. I also dug the fairly abstract mass combat system, a lot. I was strongly inclined to just port all of it over to d20; the systems are that similar. I may still do so. I haven't looked to see how it could port over to 4e, but I'd like to give it a look.
I also liked the essays on running a campaign with an epic feel, and how the game could easily be used for a non-Middle-earth setting. I think this was an underrated part of the book.
Quote from: Akrasia;408507But the core book simply was not well edited, and included too many core mechanical problems for me to bother with it.
Hopefully Cubicle 7 will do a better job with their forthcoming The One Ring Middle-earth RPG. Among other things, C7 seems to be extensively playtesting it.
I haven't heard of this game.
Not sure if this is relevant to the topic, but I've been curious for awhile, do ya'all not like the movie art because ya didn't like the movies? I don't mind the movie art, but then I really liked the movies. I've been a Tolkien fan almost all my life, and The Hobbit was the first full-length novel I ever read. I read so much complaining over the movies, but rarely specifics about what was wrong with them (at least no specifics that make sense to me). If ya didn't like the movies, why not? You can PM me if it'll derail the thread too much.
As a more on-topic aside about the ME magic, I play LotRo and I like how the magic is handled in there. Loremasters are described as being the conjurers of cheap tricks Gandalf was referring to, and much of their "magic" is mostly just a deep knowledge of the natural properties of things and how to use them to best advantage, and none of it is big and flashy. They are good at "crowd-control" and utility, and seem kinda like druids (the real ones, not the WoW ones or DnD ones). I have no experience with MERP or Decipher's games though so not sure how lotro compares to that. I'd love to roleplay in ME someday though. Interesting stuff.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408536...
I also liked the essays on running a campaign with an epic feel, and how the game could easily be used for a non-Middle-earth setting. I think this was an underrated part of the book.
Yeah, I liked that section too.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408536... I haven't heard of this game.
http://www.cubicle-7.com/News/TORannounce.htm
(I doubt that the game will come out in 2010, contrary to what the announcement states.)
Quote from: Sigmund;408542Not sure if this is relevant to the topic, but I've been curious for awhile, do ya'all not like the movie art because ya didn't like the movies?
I quite liked the movies.
They're not perfect, and I disliked some of the changes that Jackson made -- e.g., elves at Helm's Deep, playing Denethor for cheap laughs, etc. -- but overall I think that he did a very, very good job. The films could have been disasters, and some of the things he did were brilliant (the casting, the way Gollum was presented, etc.).
In general, though, something about using film stills as the primary art for a RPG book based on novels just strikes me as cheap and lazy.
I dislike the movies. which is odd, because for a while I was a rabid LoTr movie fanboy. It was sometime during my first viewing of the extended cut of RoTK that I realized that I no longer enjoyed them much.
I don't like the change of color palette as they go on. the increasing use of washed out colors bores the shit out of me and makes it hard for me to watch*. There are little thing that bother me as well. The fact that Frodo solves the riddle of the gate into Moria as opposed to Merry, and the fact that Merry and Pippen arouse the watcher in the water as opposed to Borimor. the first was meant to show that mmerry was useful and bright, the second was in the books a rather brilliant example of foreshadowing. Elrond talks too much and in too portentous of a voice. Larger sins include reducing Gimli to comic relief (casting here kind of sucks too, really) and, perhaps, the biggest sin is that instead of truncating Sam and Frodo's endless plodding trek across Mordor, PJ actually dwells on it and overplays the conflict between Sam and Frodo and Smeagol. Over all, i think PJ was drunk on time the same way that Lucas was drunk on sfx when he made the SW prequels. Two movies would have been better, imo. Anyway, there is a lot I do like about them, and I find them quite watchable if I make judicious use of the fast forward button. Beyond that, I'm glad they are out there because so many seem to get so much enjoyment from them. Actually the movies kind of laid bare some of the problems i have with the books. I would go in to more detail, but I don't wish to offend- it would be a bit too much of a threadcrap even for me.
I do, however, love the Hobbit 100% without reservation, so perhaps you can all forgive me.
*I understand the reasoning behind it- I just don't like it.
P.S. what he did to King Kong was far worse, imo.
I think the movies are far and away the best fantasy movies ever made. I had a hard time getting past how much Jackson changed, but eventually I was able to judge the flicks on their own terms.
My main beefs had to do with some of what Jackson changed, mostly where I thought he could have trusted the source material more rather than re-writing Tolkien. I disliked how Denethor was portrayed - he went from a true tragic figure in the books to being pretty much just a dick in the movies. I also greatly disliked Faramir's portrayal - he was a good contrast to Boromir in the books, but in the movies he was just Boromir-Light.
Not to mention that The Two Towers was essentially completely rewritten. I have a film degree, so I get that books have to be truncated and redone to fit the film format, but I just felt that a lot of Jackson's choices on just how he went about doing it didn't make a lot of sense.
A really nitpicky thing was that some visualizations just fell flat - doughy-looking elves, Dunedain who looked like they were all in a band that played Ren-Faire-Rock, stuff like that. I also thought the "Dark Galadriel" thing was really silly-looking. I also had a helluva hard time keeping Merry and Pippin straight in the movie, but that's because I had very specific ideas about what those two looked like after thirty years of reading and re-reading the books.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408486The CODA system was a good balance of skills and class-based systems. MERP I will say this about - I did like the way the races were depicted. I also dig MERP for just how comprehensively it covered the setting - the race/monster/item books are great references.[/QUOTEFor us, CODA worked even better than MERP, because we loved even the name of the stats (in MERP names are more dry and functional). And we loved that it was light D20 with d6, the Orders, everything... but the combat system, which, if RAW, is an unplayable mess and it looks like it is not been playtested. Luckily, the excellent Hall of Fire webzine provided us with the houserules we needed, and if you fix combat, the rest of the game is pure wonder.
But for setting info, we still used the MERP books. Fuck, I would use the MERP books for any ME game I run, ever.
QuoteI think 4e could handle both the low and the high-powered aspects of the setting. My experience with running 4e showed that PCs are more fragile at low levels than they appear.
Also, it is worth to remember that, when Tolkien goes high-powered, he really goes nuts. Húrin kills 70 fucking trolls just in a part of a battle, after discarding his shield (previously he probably killed a lot of stuff, too). Holy shit. Trolls are mooks for him.
Quote from: Akrasia;408506This is a good point. If the GM actually used the "Spell Use Risk Table" (ST-12) in MERP, PCs would be very reluctant to cast 'flashy' spells (e.g., fireballs).
Using magic was about the toughest choices the PCs had, including being afraid of heavy magical healing for fear of being discovered near Myrkwood. I remember an elven wizard being really reluctant about using his newly acquired fireball in an ambush, because using it to wipe the orc band could bring something worst.
QuoteI think that part of MERP's bad reputation for being too "high magic" comes from GMs failing to apply the Risk Factor rules to spells.
Absolutely.
Quote from: Akrasia;408508Yes, I think that this is an important feature of combat in Middle-earth. Even Smaug was felled by a single arrow (okay, it was Bard's possibly magical "black arrow", but still!).
It's totally an open roll, mate. And after that, the player rolls a 00 'E' critical hit :D And the palyer makes the victory dance. I've seen this happen many times.
Quote from: Aos;408553I do, however, love the Hobbit 100% without reservation, so perhaps you can all forgive me.
It's OK. The Hobbit is really great. And I hate rabid fans. Rabidly.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408554I think the movies are far and away the best fantasy movies ever made.
Word.
Quote from: Imperator;408466Actually, after reading the excellent Grey Elf's Hyborian OD&D game, I toyed with writing a ME version for S&W.
I'd buy that, colega.
Incidentally, although the original MERP rulebook exasperate me to no end (dificult layout and rules org for a kid, I supose) I was deeply in love with the races&cultures descriptions: for ever an ever that'll be Tolkieness to me, the joy to play a Lossoth chaman, a Variag raider or a Wose hunter (a pitty that so much people only knew the "Dunadain Ranger", "Noldo Wizard" combinations).
A rule system for Middle Earth must to deal with the ethnographic efforts of Tolkien, with plenty if cultures to choose. Also, and I know I'm alone in it, I don't think a Tolkien game deserves ANY magic system: like in old S&W stories, the magic in Middle Earth is the business of the Big Bad Guys, NPCs, magical beings, etc, not a tool in characters hands. It's not a very magical world, like Oerth or Faerum. Maybe magic items, and black magiks from the Shadow or the ancient Numenor, but not fireballs or breath water.
Mmm, maybe I'm too influenced by the old ICE's modules for MERP: they were very "low-key", almost always dealing with brigands, thieves, guards, wild animals and the ocasional evil warlock. I envision my "ideal MERP game" as gritty, low-magic and very human-centric, perhaps the new A Song of Ice and Fire RPG from Green Ronin.
Quote from: Imperator;408573Luckily, the excellent Hall of Fire webzine provided us with the houserules we needed, and if you fix combat, the rest of the game is pure wonder.
I have a bunch of these; can you tell us which ones you used for specific modifications?
I just discovered an OpenQuest 'Middle-earth' game called 'The Age of Shadow. (http://ageofshadow.freehostia.com/index.html)'
Okay, it's not exactly 'Middle-earth', but the game is pretty clearly based on Tolkien's world, especially the First Age (although I think that it could be used for games set in later Ages).
(OpenQuest is a streamlined/simplified version of Mongoose's RuneQuest -- essentially, it simplifies the skill system, and uses the Stormbringer combat system instead of hit locations. I summarize some of its main elements here (http://akraticwizardry.blogspot.com/2010/03/runequest-ii-versus-openquest.html). My thoughts on 'The Age of Shadow' are here (http://akraticwizardry.blogspot.com/2010/10/openquest-middle-earth.html).)
Quote from: Akrasia;408546I quite liked the movies.
They're not perfect, and I disliked some of the changes that Jackson made -- e.g., elves at Helm's Deep, playing Denethor for cheap laughs, etc. -- but overall I think that he did a very, very good job. The films could have been disasters, and some of the things he did were brilliant (the casting, the way Gollum was presented, etc.).
In general, though, something about using film stills as the primary art for a RPG book based on novels just strikes me as cheap and lazy.
I guess I fall in the camp of, "This was nowhere near as bad as I'd feared", with some, "This is a pretty cool visualization" thrown in. I will say up front that I enjoyed 1 and 2 very much, despite the strangeness of Elves in Helm's Deep, etc.
My largest issue deals with none of the above. Hardisson mentions his background, so this must kill him as well...books and movies are written with this crazy thing called 'plot', and from a macro level, this deals with the rise and fall of action , with a stimulus and a response, and we can track this.
The Scouring of the Shire is an extremely, extremely critical part in this. Tolkien himself said, in an unrelated comment, that it was a necessity, forseen from the outset. Again, seen from a very macro level, the book starts with and is about the affect the hobbits have on the world and the price the hobbits pay; about their maturation.
In the third movie, Jackson removes the actual emotional climax of the trilogy. Because of this, due to the investiture and amount of time and energy, the climax of the darn movie is The Battle of Pelennor Fields. It's a self created cinematic premature ejaculation.
Quote from: ImperatorUsing magic was about the toughest choices the PCs had, including being afraid of heavy magical healing for fear of being discovered near Myrkwood. I remember an elven wizard being really reluctant about using his newly acquired fireball in an ambush, because using it to wipe the orc band could bring something worst.
I love your attitude, but this explained right and wrong all at once.
Being scared to use magic due to resonance in the shadow world? Cool and right.
Fireballs in LotR? Pretty canon-destructive.
Quote from: LordVreeg;408602My largest issue deals with none of the above. Hardisson mentions his background, so this must kill him as well...books and movies are written with this crazy thing called 'plot', and from a macro level, this deals with the rise and fall of action , with a stimulus and a response, and we can track this.
The Scouring of the Shire is an extremely, extremely critical part in this. Tolkien himself said, in an unrelated comment, that it was a necessity, forseen from the outset. Again, seen from a very macro level, the book starts with and is about the affect the hobbits have on the world and the price the hobbits pay; about their maturation.
In the third movie, Jackson removes the actual emotional climax of the trilogy. Because of this, due to the investiture and amount of time and energy, the climax of the darn movie is The Battle of Pelennor Fields. It's a self created cinematic premature ejaculation.
I hear ya. The Scouring of the Shire is integral to the story of the book, but I resigned myself early on to the idea that it would never make it into the film version. As soon as I heard the movies were going to be made, I knew they'd cut at least two things - Tom Bombadil (and the Barrow Downs), and the Scouring of the Shire.
That's one of the main reasons I think the story would have been better served as a TV show rather than as even a trilogy of movies. That way a lot of material could have been explored that would add depth and narrative resonance.
It's hard to argue with success - the films made huge amounts of money, and people who'd never read the books flocked to them. I recall people who hadn't read the books praising the movies for how deep and "legendary" the films seemed. It does make me wonder how successful a TV show would have been, especially with the time to explore the books as they are, rather than a truncated, adapted version.
Quote from: Imperator;408573For us, CODA worked even better than MERP, because we loved even the name of the stats (in MERP names are more dry and functional).
I wanted to mention that this is a highlight of the game. Not only were the names of traits taken from the books, but most of them even included a direct quote from the books to show where they originated and what they meant. Fantastic stuff, very thorough, meticulous, and indicative of just how much the designers loved the material.
Just wanted to say, to me, Akrasia's and the Colonel's opinions about the films are not mutually exclusive. I too would have preferred for Peter Jackson and Co. to stick more closely to the original material (concerning Glorfindel's appearance, or lack thereof, for instance) and would have liked to see more of other moments (the Witch King facing Gandalf the White - this has to be one of the best moments in the books, and in the movies it's just in the Extended Edition and not particularly memorable compared to other things unfolding at the same time).
That said, I think this is the absolute best trilogy of medieval fantasy ever made.
Quote from: Lizaur;408595A rule system for Middle Earth must to deal with the ethnographic efforts of Tolkien, with plenty if cultures to choose.
And CODA was a bit lacking on this. We had to adapt the cultures descriptions to emulate the detail in MERP.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408599I have a bunch of these; can you tell us which ones you used for specific modifications?
Don't remember the exact issues, but the main changes were:
- Each success category inflicted an additional d6 of damage. Just this rule changed combats altogether.
- Mook rule: mooks have 1, 2 or 3 Health levels. Combats run faster, and you can get instakills on mooks.
- Called shots as an effective manner of disabling a foe.
Let me see if I can find my notes with the concrete houserules.
Quote from: LordVreeg;408602I love your attitude, but this explained right and wrong all at once.
Being scared to use magic due to resonance in the shadow world? Cool and right.
Fireballs in LotR? Pretty canon-destructive.
As I said before, is all in the F/X description.
The important thing on the fireball is that it causes a big bunch of pain by fire. You don't need to describe an actual fireball rolling out from the wizard's hands and whatnot. Also, Gandalf attacks some worgs by throwing fucking pine cones on fire to them, which he set magically on fire. Previously, he killed a bunch of goblins in a cave with some sort of fireball/lightning bolt or magic blast.
Also, the spell was level 8 out of 10. Not exactly common material :D
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408609That's one of the main reasons I think the story would have been better served as a TV show rather than as even a trilogy of movies. That way a lot of material could have been explored that would add depth and narrative resonance.
I agree with you on this, though I won't miss Tom Bombadil. I fucking hate musical numbers.
Quote from: Imperator;408660- Mook rule: mooks have 1, 2 or 3 Health levels. Combats run faster, and you can get instakills on mooks.
Yeah, this was one of the things I loved in the core rules. I used them a lot. When I saw 4e D&D used the same basic concept for minions, I was very pleased.
Related to the remarks about the LOTR movies (sorry to push on the sidetracking conversation, but that's just coming to my mind), someone once asked on some message boards "where is our blockbuster D&D movie?" to which someone else, I think Monte Cook actually, if memory serves, answered "There's one already: it's called the Lord of the Rings..."
Which makes it kind of weird for D&D to kind of step away from the tolkienian tropes at this point. Because let's face it: the LOTR movies are EXTREMELY popular. Still. They marked the subconscious of people in the same way Star Wars did. When you say Frodo, mimick the voice of Smeagol or speak about the hatred between Elves and Dwarves, Sauron and the Burning Eye, pretty much anyone will understand what you're talking about nowadays. Which is amazing to me, when I think about it.
Anyway. LOTR is this common main stream experience of fantasy D&D could build on. I'm glad Essentials go back to the basic Elves/Dwarves/Halflings paradigm in that regard. This is something that should stop being stepped away from, when so many already are familiar with Middle-earth's aesthetics and imagery.
Quote from: Benoist;408695Related to the remarks about the LOTR movies (sorry to push on the sidetracking conversation, but that's just coming to my mind), someone once asked on some message boards "where is our blockbuster D&D movie?" to which someone else, I think Monte Cook actually, if memory serves, answered "There's one already: it's called the Lord of the Rings..."
Which makes it kind of weird for D&D to kind of step away from the tolkienian tropes at this point. Because let's face it: the LOTR movies are EXTREMELY popular. Still. They marked the subconscious of people in the same way Star Wars did. When you say Frodo, mimick the voice of Smeagol or speak about the hatred between Elves and Dwarves, Sauron and the Burning Eye, pretty much anyone will understand what you're talking about nowadays. Which is amazing to me, when I think about it.
Anyway. LOTR is this common main stream experience of fantasy D&D could build on. I'm glad Essentials go back to the basic Elves/Dwarves/Halflings paradigm in that regard. This is something that should stop be stepped away from, when so many already are familiar with Middle-earth's aesthetics and imagery.
You make a good argument. I get that they are trying to draw in the electronic gamer crowd by borrowing game mechanics and narrative tropes. What baffles me is how they seemed to try to distance themselves from Lord of the Rings-style trappings just at the time it would have benefited the game the most.
For that matter, I find it curious they didn't get the license to do a Lord of the Rings RPG when the movies were still in the process of being released. To be frank, as soon as I heard that a smaller company had gotten it, I knew it wouldn't last long...and it didn't. It didn't even last long enough to produce a sourcebook for Return of the King.
WotC had a good run with Star Wars, one of the most recognizable scifi franchises, yet for some reason seemed to eschew what is often seen as primary source material for its flagship game. I know some wag will try to give it all a reasonable explanation, but it just seems flat-out bizarre to me - the most successful fantasy movies ever, and they take the most well-known fantasy RPG and make it less and less like those movies. I just don't get it. After Decipher no longer had the license, why not at least license LotR for a D&D sourcebook or boxed set? Barring that, why not at least take a cue from whatever it was that motivated them to move back towards classic D&D with Essentials and return to the more Tolkienesque trappings D&D had in the first place?
I could go on and on. It's one of my rant-triggering subjects.
Quote from: Imperator;408660*snip*
I agree with you on this, though I won't miss Tom Bombadil. I fucking hate musical numbers.
:rotfl:
Quote from: skofflox;408739:rotfl:
What can I say. A pet peeve of mine :D
Quote from: Imperator;408886What can I say. A pet peeve of mine :D
I'm with you 100% on that :)
I guess I didn't mind the ending of the movies vs. the books because I never saw the scouring of the shire as the actual climax or as the maturation of the hobbits. To me it always came across as just some residual dribble on the belly of the story, so to speak, with the actual climax always being Sauron's defeat. The maturation, to me, is represented by the passing of Bilbo and Frodo and the portrayal of Sam getting on with life through marriage and children. As for the other details and their changes, I couldn't care less. I do have to agree, however, that I did not like the "dark Galadriel" scene, thought it could have been done much better. Otherwise, the movies worked just fine for me.
On the contrary, I've never thought too seriously about gaming in ME because I have always been skeptical of whether the game experience could live up to my expectations... the same concern I have for any licensed property. This concern has been proven valid, for me. I've tried both Star Wars gaming and Song of Ice and Fire gaming and found both less than satisfying. I concede this is most likely due to my expectations, not due to any deficiencies in the games themselves. It also might have been that the GMs of the games had different ideas about what the essence of those IPs are than I did. Anyway, while I'd love to game in ME, especially in the fourth age where the IP's integrity would not be as important, I've always been wary of trying it. Oddly enough though, I have no problem MMOGing in LotRo. Go figure...
Quote from: Sigmund;408903The maturation, to me, is represented by the passing of Bilbo and Frodo and the portrayal of Sam getting on with life through marriage and children.
Oh yes. The Scouring of the Shire, for me, makes
the characters aware of the changes. The passing of Frodo and Bilbo makes
the reader aware of the maturation of the characters, and creates the emotional ending to the book. That, and the appendix telling of Aragorn's death and Arwen's mourning. Dude, do I cry reading that part.
In that regard, the movies deliver.
QuoteOn the contrary, I've never thought too seriously about gaming in ME because I have always been skeptical of whether the game experience could live up to my expectations... the same concern I have for any licensed property. This concern has been proven valid, for me. I've tried both Star Wars gaming and Song of Ice and Fire gaming and found both less than satisfying. I concede this is most likely due to my expectations, not due to any deficiencies in the games themselves. It also might have been that the GMs of the games had different ideas about what the essence of those IPs are than I did. Anyway, while I'd love to game in ME, especially in the fourth age where the IP's integrity would not be as important, I've always been wary of trying it. Oddly enough though, I have no problem MMOGing in LotRo. Go figure...
Well, most of my experiences running licensed properties have gone great, so I would attribute your lack of satisfaction to your expectations and your GM's.
And you don't need to go Fourth Age. Most of my ME gaming has been set of Third Age, around 1640, and it went swimmingly. I've also run games during the War of the Ring, no problem. heck, I even run a game using the Fellowship of the Ring from the ICE books, and it went like hell (and Boromir survived!).
ME is a mood, not a concrete set of events. I don't think you need to worry about getting the exact dates perfect, as long as you get the mood of darkness rising, decay of the good, and the mourning for what has been. The only people who don't miss the Old Days are the Hobbits, because they have almost no history.
Quote from: LordVreeg;408602I guess I fall in the camp of, "This was nowhere near as bad as I'd feared", with some, "This is a pretty cool visualization" thrown in. I will say up front that I enjoyed 1 and 2 very much, despite the strangeness of Elves in Helm's Deep, etc.
I guess that I liked the films a bit more than you. :)
When I first started watching the FotR film, I kept comparing it to the book. But then, after about 20 minutes or so, I tried to stop doing that, and decided to view the films as 'inspired' by the books, rather than representing everything that happened in them.
Some things still rankled (e.g., elves and Helm's Deep, the portrayal of Denethor as an arrogant boor instead of as a tragic figure, Aragorn dishonourably beheading the Mouth of Sauron during a parley, etc.). Some changes bothered me, but I understood why they probably had to be made (e.g., the way in which Arnor was never mentioned in the films, and Aragorn's connection to the throne of Gondor was left quite vague). Some changes bothered me not at all (e.g., I didn't mind Gimli being portrayed somewhat comically, I liked the bridge of Khazad Dum scene, I liked the scenes of ruined Osgiliath, etc.).
Overall, though, if I had continued to think that the films should be viewed as
representations of the books, I would have found them very frustrating. Instead, I enjoyed them as extremely good -- but not perfect -- films.
Quote from: LordVreeg;408602The Scouring of the Shire is an extremely, extremely critical part in this. Tolkien himself said, in an unrelated comment, that it was a necessity, forseen from the outset...
I agree with this about the books, but in the films the 'Scouring of the Shire' simply would have fallen flat with audiences not already familiar with the books. I knew, with absolute a priori certainty, that the Scouring would not be included in the films, so I wasn't disappointed when they, in fact, weren't included.
Quote from: Imperator;408660...I agree with you on this, though I won't miss Tom Bombadil. I fucking hate musical numbers.
Tom Bombadil is my absolute
least favourite character in
all of Tolkien's books. In fact, i think that the
Fellowship of the Ring would have been
better had Bombadil
not been included at all.
So, yeah, no tears from this fan at his absence in the films. :D
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408716...For that matter, I find it curious they didn't get the license to do a Lord of the Rings RPG when the movies were still in the process of being released...
Apparently WotC considered the license, but declined because of the costs and complexities involved.
:idunno:
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408716.After Decipher no longer had the license, why not at least license LotR for a D&D sourcebook or boxed set?
Again, I suspect that this can be explained by the costs and hassles of dealing with Tolkien Enterprises.
And now that Cubicle 7 has the license to produce a Middle-earth RPG (http://www.cubicle-7.com/News/TORannounce.htm), WotC is out of the picture.
Quote from: Akrasia;409034Apparently WotC considered the license, but declined because of the costs and complexities involved.
:idunno:
Sure, I remember hearing something about that. Something about it strikes me as suspect, though. I mean, they got hold of Star Wars, which has to be an expensive license, and Lucas has always been known to be at least a little difficult. My own personal theory, which of course means nothing, is that it may have to do with the old specter of the "cease & desist"'s TSR received way, way back for using the term hobbit and some other recognizable terms. It could be that it became ingrained in the culture of TSR, and later WotC, that D&D didn't "do" Lord of the Rings.
Quote from: Akrasia;409034Again, I suspect that this can be explained by the costs and hassles of dealing with Tolkien Enterprises.
And now that Cubicle 7 has the license to produce a Middle-earth RPG (http://www.cubicle-7.com/News/TORannounce.htm), WotC is out of the picture.
For now. We'll see how long this particular incarnation of a Lord of the Rings RPG lasts.