Quote from: Akrasia;407569I am curious to know what folks here think about the 'Lord of the Rings Adventure Game' -- the 'starter' or 'basic' game put out by ICE in the early 1990s, and also used by ICE for their 'Middle-earth Quest' solo advanture books in the late 1980s.

I never got a chance to look at any of them. I never saw them on shelves when they were in print, and thus never even knew they existed until much, much later. The same goes for a lot of the late-era MERP books and supplements - I don't think 90% of them ever made it to store shelves in my area, and I'm still finding MERP books online that I don't recognize. In addition, most of them are going for prices I'm not willing to pay now. It was a total fluke for me to find "Palantir Quest" when I did.

Quote from: Akrasia;407569I am curious to know what folks here think about the 'Lord of the Rings Adventure Game' -- the 'starter' or 'basic' game put out by ICE in the early 1990s, and also used by ICE for their 'Middle-earth Quest' solo advanture books in the late 1980s.

In contrast to MERP, the magic system seems very low-key in nature, a better fit for Middle-earth overall (though probably not 'perfect').

One advantage of the LotRAG is that the later ICE Middle-earth modules included LotRAG stats in the back, along with stats for MERP.  (At least this is an advantage for me!)

There also is a fan-produced 'expanded' version of LotRAG called 'Middle-Earth Adventure Game' ('MEAG') available over at MERP.com.  Apparently MEAG is fully compatible with LotRAG (it simply gives players and GMs more options and detail).

Wouldn't mind checking MEAG out, but it won't let me DL it without registering, and when I try to register it just keeps kicking me back to the registration screen without going through. Ah well.

Quote from: Sigmund;408027Wouldn't mind checking MEAG out, but it won't let me DL it without registering, and when I try to register it just keeps kicking me back to the registration screen without going through. Ah well.

PM me with your e-mail address if you'd like me to send you a copy.  

I've been putting a good bit of thought into writing a large-scale adventure set in the early Fourth Age. To me, one of the most obvious adventures is the recovery of the palantiri that were lost. Thing is, while I think Palantir Quest is a decent adventure, I wouldn't want to write anything like it. There would obviously be some overlap in some cases, at least in a superficial sense - I think players are going to want to run across some Rohirrim, visit Minas Tirith, fight some orcs, and rub shoulders with some of Middle-earth's best-known personalities, as well as any number of other possibilities.

My own druthers would be to have the ultimate object of the quest be to delve into the crumbled remains of Barad-dur to recover Sauron's stone. It couldn't be used, obviously, but I would imagine Aragorn would want to secure the stone and keep it out of the hands of evil, whether a surviving lieutenant of the Dark Lord or an independent operator - or both. I think the quest could involve finding a way to destroy the stone, but I dig the idea of trying to cleanse it. That seems unlikely, given the fate of the stone Denethor used. There is also the stone lost from Osgiliath to consider.

Well, I now feel like a really strange bird, because I had no problem with the magic system of MERP (though I like better the Decipher's and I agre with Colonel's POV). I think that the secret of making the magic feel tolkienian lays more on the F/X description than in the concrete mechanics.

Many of the spells in MERP are really functional, skill-enhancing effects. They let you make something mundane better, before moving into wall - running and all that. Many of those spells need not to be visible, or have F/X associated. It's been more than a decade since I ran MERP, I think, but there were few spells that were hard to work in. Also, the rules of spell detection really stuck close to the book, to that Gandalf quote of he not wanting to go berserk with magic lest he be discovered.

And the gritty system really felt like Middle-Earth, as did the portrait of races and cultures. Seriously, I don't get the complaints on the game. I think that Decipher's CODA game has an even more pronounced literary feel, but MERP did a bang - up job for us emulating ME, and we also played a lot of modules and found them excellent and very ME. Again, I feel a lot came by the way I described magic, traps and treasure. Even with high level PCs, using frequent spells, magic still felt low-key, personal, and they had to use it carefully (spell detection rules can be a bitch).

Quote from: Imperator;408402And the gritty system really felt like Middle-Earth

If you mean the combat system, all I can say is that Tolkien didn't write any graphic descriptions of the effects of battle damage. That's why it doesn't seem like a good game for the setting.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408436If you mean the combat system, all I can say is that Tolkien didn't write any graphic descriptions of the effects of battle damage. That's why it doesn't seem like a good game for the setting.

Yep, I meant the combat system (and the rest of the system), but not due to graphic descriptions. JRRT's best point was not, definitely, the description of combat.

By gritty I mean "people can die in one single blow." Combat is fearsome, and terrifying, not something to be taken lightly. I liked that from MERP, and our combats were fast-paced, furious and tense. We loved that.

Quote from: Imperator;408440Yep, I meant the combat system (and the rest of the system), but not due to graphic descriptions. JRRT's best point was not, definitely, the description of combat.

By gritty I mean "people can die in one single blow." Combat is fearsome, and terrifying, not something to be taken lightly. I liked that from MERP, and our combats were fast-paced, furious and tense. We loved that.

I see what you're saying. It's cool it works for you and your group. For me and mine back in the 80s when we first tried it, it really turned us off the game as an engine for playing in Middle-earth. We were intrigued by it as a system for a less epic setting, but we only messed with it for a relatively short while that way.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408443I see what you're saying. It's cool it works for you and your group. For me and mine back in the 80s when we first tried it, it really turned us off the game as an engine for playing in Middle-earth. We were intrigued by it as a system for a less epic setting, but we only messed with it for a relatively short while that way.

Cool.

Really, I feel that you can get a great ME game with almost any system, with at most some tweaking. I've seen people running great ME games, full of flavour, using BRP. OD&D, WHFRP, RM, CODA, FATE, Pendragon and many others. I found all of them interesting for each one enhanced a different part of the setting, a different flavour.

Actually, after reading the excellent Grey Elf's Hyborian OD&D game, I toyed with writing a ME version for S&W. It should not be too much work, but between launching two different businesses, my practice in psychotherapy, and running a weekly CoC game and a random RQ game, time has become scarce.

I think that ME has the great advantage of being a very robust setting, that can be well emulated with a vast array of systems. As someone said, I can even envision a 4e game set on the Silmarillion age. Kill Balrogs and trolls left and right, as Húrin did. I'm totally over that.

Said this, I find this thread really enlightening, and I really get the criticism against MERP. I don't find it absurd, it is just a different experience. For us, MERP oozed middle-earthiness, from the very chargen, with the ample descriptions of races and cultures. Then it came CODA and it poured middle-earthiness over us, and we were happier

Quote from: Imperator;408466Cool.

Really, I feel that you can get a great ME game with almost any system, with at most some tweaking. I've seen people running great ME games, full of flavour, using BRP. OD&D, WHFRP, RM, CODA, FATE, Pendragon and many others. I found all of them interesting for each one enhanced a different part of the setting, a different flavour.

That's a good point. The more I think about it, the more I agree that just about any RPG could be used for Middle-earth, especially after some tweaking. Hell, I can see HackMaster being used for it.

Quote from: Imperator;408466Actually, after reading the excellent Grey Elf's Hyborian OD&D game, I toyed with writing a ME version for S&W. It should not be too much work, but between launching two different businesses, my practice in psychotherapy, and running a weekly CoC game and a random RQ game, time has become scarce.

That's understandable.

Quote from: Imperator;408466I think that ME has the great advantage of being a very robust setting, that can be well emulated with a vast array of systems.

Agreed. I think "robust" is a good word to describe it. There are high-powered elements and characters that would work well with games like 4e D&D. There are aspects of the setting that Pendragon could emulate. RuneQuest or GURPS, each being more skill-based than games like D&D, would fit. The CODA system was a good balance of skills and class-based systems. MERP I will say this about - I did like the way the races were depicted. I also dig MERP for just how comprehensively it covered the setting - the race/monster/item books are great references.

Quote from: Imperator;408466As someone said, I can even envision a 4e game set on the Silmarillion age. Kill Balrogs and trolls left and right, as Húrin did. I'm totally over that.

I think 4e could handle both the low and the high-powered aspects of the setting. My experience with running 4e showed that PCs are more fragile at low levels than they appear.

Quote from: Imperator;408466Said this, I find this thread really enlightening, and I really get the criticism against MERP. I don't find it absurd, it is just a different experience. For us, MERP oozed middle-earthiness, from the very chargen, with the ample descriptions of races and cultures. Then it came CODA and it poured middle-earthiness over us, and we were happier

I can see where you're coming from concerning MERP's chargen.

I also think CODA is a fantastic translation of the setting into game terms.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;408436If you mean the combat system, all I can say is that Tolkien didn't write any graphic descriptions of the effects of battle damage. That's why it doesn't seem like a good game for the setting.

While I think that you're correct that Tolkien did not regularly indulge in "graphic descriptions of battle damage," he did do so sometimes.

Consider the following three quotes:

QuoteThere as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset.

Last of all Húrin stood alone.  Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva!  Day shall come again!'  Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgot, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which cling to him though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them

[From The Silmarillion, "The Fifth Battle," p. 238.]

Quote...the orcs were dismayed by the fierceness of the defence.  Legolas shot two through the throat.  Gimli hewed the legs from another that had sprung up on Balin's tomb...

[The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm," p. 385.]

QuoteLike a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor, and beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield, as smiths hewing the hot bending iron.  At Pippin's side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down.

Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out.  He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath him.  Blackness and stench and crushing pain game upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.

[The Return of the King, "The Black Gate Opens," p. 187.]

If I had more time I could dig up more quotes.

Now, IMO, those scenes could have come directly from a few sessions of MERP combat.  We have critical hits (e.g., "Huron fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye"; "Legolas shot two through the throat"; "the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came rushing out"), and a character being stunned ("Beregond was stunned").

Consequently, I think that the MERP combat system does a pretty good job in capturing the nature of combat in Middle-earth.  But then my interpretation of Middle-earth is that it's a relatively gritty place (even though this may be glossed over occasionally by Tolkien, when describing large-scale battles).  I suppose that it's possible to interpret Middle-earth differently, but it has never struck me as place where bones don't go crack when hit by an orcish hammer.  (The Hobbit, as a children's novel, is a bit different, of course.)

My only complaint with the MERP combat system (aside from the difficulty of keeping track of bleeding damage, stuns, etc., for multiple foes) is that player characters can die too easily.  So if I were to use MERP again, I probably would introduce a simple 'fate point' system (PCs start with three fate points and, by spending one, can 'reroll' a result, including a critical hit against them, etc.).

Quote from: Imperator;408402...Also, the rules of spell detection really stuck close to the book, to that Gandalf quote of he not wanting to go berserk with magic lest he be discovered.
...
Even with high level PCs, using frequent spells, magic still felt low-key, personal, and they had to use it carefully (spell detection rules can be a bitch).

This is a good point.  If the GM actually used the "Spell Use Risk Table" (ST-12) in MERP, PCs would be very reluctant to cast 'flashy' spells (e.g., fireballs).

I think that part of MERP's bad reputation for being too "high magic" comes from GMs failing to apply the Risk Factor rules to spells.

Quote from: Imperator;408402...I think that Decipher's CODA game has an even more pronounced literary feel...

Quote from: Imperator;408466...Then it came CODA and it poured middle-earthiness over us, and we were happier

I suppose that I'm the "odd man out" with respect to CODA LotR.  I don't like it at all.  I would run MERP long before I'd ever run Decipher's game.

I bought the game when it first came out.  I was irritated by the use of movie stills for almost all of the art.

But I was especially annoyed that it took me forever to figure out how to create a character (I'm still not sure that I ever got it right).  Eventually Decipher had to put up a PDF on character creation, but by that time I had written off the game, thanks to certain absurd features of the combat system, and other bugs.

I can see why some people think that there is a 'seed' of a good game in there somewhere.  And I can appreciate that the magic system seemed to do a better job than MERP in capturing the 'feel' of Middle-earth.

But the core book simply was not well edited, and included too many core mechanical problems for me to bother with it.

Hopefully Cubicle 7 will do a better job with their forthcoming The One Ring Middle-earth RPG.  Among other things, C7 seems to be extensively playtesting it.

Quote from: Imperator;408440...By gritty I mean "people can die in one single blow."...

Yes, I think that this is an important feature of combat in Middle-earth.  Even Smaug was felled by a single arrow (okay, it was Bard's possibly magical "black arrow", but still!).

Quote from: Akrasia;408505Consequently, I think that the MERP combat system does a pretty good job in capturing the nature of combat in Middle-earth.  

I see where you're coming from, but I still think the MERP crit tables get too graphic to suit the setting. Yeah, Tolkien writes of characters shot through the eye or throat, but he doesn't get into the more specific stuff found on the MERP tables (shot through the kidneys, paralyzed from the neck down, etc.). It's a matter of taste and interpretation.