Specifically, I designed a game for a 24 hour RPG contest a friend of mine was running - the brief was to design an espionage-themed game in a pre-1914 time period. The competition entries have gone up here - mine is "Dictatus Papae". What do people make of it? I thought I'd ask here seeing how I can be reasonably assured of cutting and insightful criticism in this place. I am vaguely interested in expanding the thing for a second edition.

On a quick read through I don't see an explanation of spending skill points--skills have a base percentage, and no "levels" so I presume you spend Skill points on a one for one basis--1 point gets base skill percentage, the rest directly add to skills percentage? or is there another method of spending skill points?

Also is that a typo on the date for Henry IV(?) begging to end excommunication?
Or is it really 1977?

Anyway not bad, solid base system, interesting information. It could use a lot more explanation of things, but it was written in a day so I understand how that goes.

I think it's an excellent start, I got to read it finally today.  Start by the way isn't a dig, it's a recognition that it's a 24 hour rpg and those are designed to be seeds of later, more developed, games.

That said, you won't win anything I'm afraid, in Forgey terms it's pure sim with a roll under mechanic and a clear GM/Player divide.  Works for me, and indeed for most gamers, but I suspect it's insufficiently thematic for the competition.

But I may be pleasantly surprised, who knows?

I'll try creating a Bishop and Henchman in a bit and see if that throws up any issues.

Quote from: BalbinusThat said, you won't win anything I'm afraid, in Forgey terms it's pure sim with a roll under mechanic and a clear GM/Player divide.  Works for me, and indeed for most gamers, but I suspect it's insufficiently thematic for the competition.

But I may be pleasantly surprised, who knows?

I think it might go both ways - I could end up being the token traditionalist. I also think some of the other games have put a little too much effort into coming up with an eccentric dice-rolling system and not enough into, you know, making an espionage game set in an unusual time period.

For what it's worth, the announced marking scheme is:

    * 25 points: Use of theme
    * 25 points: Overall creativity
    * 20 points: Playability
    * 20 points: Rules mechanics
    * 10 points: Layout, spelling and grammar

For a total of 100 points. I don't expect an unfashionable rules system to wreck my chances too much; we'll have to see how the marks break down.

(Oh, and you really should check out The Sun Never Sets, because the Flashback mechanic is lots of fun.)

Ok, here goes, this is an attempt to portray a character I actually play in a PBEM.  He's not yet a Bishop and that's set in 1517 so some tweaks will be necessary.
Period is 1414.

Bishop Bartolomeo Gagliardi
Integrity 60, Bartolomeo is a respected scholar and mathematician
Wealth 60, Bartolomeo is well off, but not as much as he would like
Contacts 60, Bartolomeo is a liked guy
Underlings, six thereof (cost 20)
BG does not have any additional Henchmen
Health Points 60
200 points seemed enough actually.

Skills wow Bishops get few skill points
Eavesdropping 15
Negotiation 55
Oration 25
wow Bishops get few skill points, that felt like too few.  I'd expect BG to be a skilled negotiator and orator and had wanted some obfuscation, for a percentile system 80 is way harsh.  I'd probably double it.

Traits
Secret Lover (Male) (-15)
Personal Confessor to Giovanni de Medici, banker to popes (cost 15)
Papal Inquisitor (cost 30)

I could have used more traits, both positive and negative, the list was a bit short.  Also, it wasn't clear to me if negative trait points could only be spent on traits or could be spent elsewhere also.  Since BG lacked the skill points to buy obfuscation, his male lover trait will probably have him dead within a year.  I couldn't find another -15 I wanted, I was torn between Papal Inquisitor and Cardinal, but PI seemed to have more immediate power.

Allegiance:  The Roman Papacy.

Henchman next.

Menachim Yadin, henchman
Resources 50, Skills 300, Traits 20/-20
First off, 50 for resources is way low, I had to abandon my initial idea of a merchant as I couldn't afford him.

Integrity 20, Menachim is an usurer, but fairer than some
Wealth 20, which is incredibly low for an usurer I would have thought
Contacts 20, Menachim knows virtually nobody it seems
Health 60
50 is far too low, again I'd probably double it.

Skills
Eavesdropping 55
Investigation 60
Negotiation 45
Obfuscation 60
Observation 60
Rumourmongering 62
300 wasn't too bad here actually.  That said, I suddenly find myself wishing I had a second henchman as Menachim is good for intrigue but useless at following people or fighting.  Still, I have my underlings for the fighting I guess...

Traits
Known to be Jewish (10)
Special Friend (Opposite Sex) (10, added to the pitifully low Contacts trait)
I didn't have any more traits I much wanted and there weren't any negatives that seemed to fit, again, far more traits are needed.

Wow, Underlings only get 20 skill points, that allows me to have a bodyguard with Attack 20 and Defence 20 with no other skills, combats are going to be a bit of a whiff-fest.

Again, it seems too little.

Overall, Bishops get too few Skill points by far, Henchmen too few Resources points.  I appreciate they're supposed to be imbalanced, but I think it is so much so as to be a problem.  Underlings seem pretty much useless even as bodyguards.

More traits would really help, also some guidelines on what numbers mean.  What kind of person has an integrity of 10, 20, 50 and so on.  What wealth is represented by Wealth 20, 30, whatever.  Contacts makes sense as is given you get +30 for contacting people in your profession within your own area, although even at that Menachim has only a 50% chance of contacting other Userers in his home town.

That's my thoughts for now, any comments welcome.

As an experiment, here's Bartolomeo with skill points doubled and Menachim with Resource points doubled.

Bishop Bartolomeo Gagliardi
Integrity 60, Bartolomeo is a respected scholar and mathematician
Wealth 60, Bartolomeo is well off, but not as much as he would like
Contacts 60, Bartolomeo is a liked guy
Underlings, six thereof (cost 20)
BG does not have any additional Henchmen
Health Points 60

Skills
Eavesdropping 15
Negotiation 65
Obfuscation 60
Oration 45
Hardly overpowered I think.

Traits
Secret Lover (Male) (-15)
Personal Confessor to Giovanni de Medici, banker to popes (cost 15)
Papal Inquisitor (cost 30)

Menachim Yadin, henchman
Resources 50, Skills 300, Traits 20/-20
First off, 50 for resources is way low, I had to abandon my initial idea of a merchant as I couldn't afford him.

Integrity 20, Menachim is an usurer, but fairer than some
Wealth 30, which is incredibly low for an usurer I would have thought
Contacts 60, Menachim knows some people
Health 60
Again, hardly gamebreaking IMO.

Skills
Eavesdropping 55
Investigation 60
Negotiation 45
Obfuscation 60
Observation 60
Rumourmongering 62

Traits
Known to be Jewish (10)
Special Friend (Opposite Sex) (10, added to the Contacts trait)

One issue I noticed, because I need to roll wealth to buy stuff having a wealth below 50 is crippling, as any purchase requires a wealth check.  A wealth of below 50 means anything I roll for I am likely to fail.  I think the game needs some automatic successess, perhaps matching levels of wealth to levels within society and giving an automatic success if your wealth level is equal to or greater than the wealth level for someone who could normally afford that thing.

For example, a wealth of 30 might mean you don't need to roll to buy a horse, though you would to buy horses for a cavalry unit.

Quote from: BalbinusWow, Underlings only get 20 skill points, that allows me to have a bodyguard with Attack 20 and Defence 20 with no other skills, combats are going to be a bit of a whiff-fest.

Again, it seems too little.

Overall, Bishops get too few Skill points by far, Henchmen too few Resources points.  I appreciate they're supposed to be imbalanced, but I think it is so much so as to be a problem.  Underlings seem pretty much useless even as bodyguards.

Points taken... except for the bit about underlings. Check the segment on combat: if you take your underlings, give them arms and armour, and have them fight as a unit and protect you in combat, they're pretty decent bodyguards.

Another tweak that I really ought to add is that Henchmen should be able to obfuscate for their Bishops: that would make life much easier.

In addition, I might consider letting Bishops and Henchmen pool Integrity and Contacts as well as Wealth if they want to - then I wouldn't have to give Henchmen more Resource points. Henchmen really aren't meant to be big-time movers and shakers - you have to take a mighty flawed one to get Royal Blood, for instance. That's why Actually Important is a positive trait for Henchmen: by default, Henchmen are of a lower social class than their Bishops.

Quote from: WarthurPoints taken... except for the bit about underlings. Check the segment on combat: if you take your underlings, give them arms and armour, and have them fight as a unit and protect you in combat, they're pretty decent bodyguards.

Another tweak that I really ought to add is that Henchmen should be able to obfuscate for their Bishops: that would make life much easier.

In addition, I might consider letting Bishops and Henchmen pool Integrity and Contacts as well as Wealth if they want to - then I wouldn't have to give Henchmen more Resource points. Henchmen really aren't meant to be big-time movers and shakers - you have to take a mighty flawed one to get Royal Blood, for instance. That's why Actually Important is a positive trait for Henchmen: by default, Henchmen are of a lower social class than their Bishops.

It may be a lack of automatic successes, with Henchmen sure their contacts and wealth will be of a lower order, but merely having a lower percentile just means they fail all the time.  That I think is the key issue.

Pooling integrity and contacts, dunno, does hobnobbing with a Jewish merchant really improve Bart's integrity?  Can he sensibly access the same contacts?

Pooling underlings, I take your point, six bodyguards is pretty heavy duty but I guess if I want to take a full time competent personal bodyguard I take him as a henchman, yes?

Edit:  I assumed Henchmen could obfuscate for their bishops, but it's worth stating.  Generally incidentally I'm criticising because I like the game, if I didn't like it to be honest I wouldn't bother critiquing it most likely.

Gunther Zumwald, henchman bodyguard

Integrity 20, Gunther is feared, not loved
Wealth 10, Gunther is perennially broke
Contacts 20, Gunther knows few people
Health 90

Skills
Attack 90
Defence 90
Healing 25
Observation 60
Sneaking 50

Traits
Miraculous Health (15)
Professional Mercenary (I made this one up based on career criminal, adds +10 to contacts when seeking out mercenaries, maximum Integrity of 30 'cos nobody loves a paid killer) (cost 5)

Not bad, I still struggled with traits though, there weren't many obvious negatives to take and nothing else to buy anyway.

Quote from: BalbinusIt may be a lack of automatic successes, with Henchmen sure their contacts and wealth will be of a lower order, but merely having a lower percentile just means they fail all the time.  That I think is the key issue.

Pooling integrity and contacts, dunno, does hobnobbing with a Jewish merchant really improve Bart's integrity?  Can he sensibly access the same contacts?

Pooling underlings, I take your point, six bodyguards is pretty heavy duty but I guess if I want to take a full time competent personal bodyguard I take him as a henchman, yes?

It depends what sort of bodyguard you want.

If you want a group of trained men to take care of your life, take underlings and arm them well. People are reluctant to fuck with groups of armed men unless they have more groups of armed men on their side.

If you want someone who can be a leet ninja, take a henchman. But people can underestimate henchmen, and so conversely that make it more likely that you'll be attacked.

Quote from: WarthurIt depends what sort of bodyguard you want.

If you want a group of trained men to take care of your life, take underlings and arm them well. People are reluctant to fuck with groups of armed men unless they have more groups of armed men on their side.

If you want someone who can be a leet ninja, take a henchman. But people can underestimate henchmen, and so conversely that make it more likely that you'll be attacked.

Sure, but I can take a henchman into an inn with me or have him by my side inconspicuously as I walk the streets, six armed dudes attacts unwelcome attention, if I'm trying to get information on Cardinal Gutierrez's mistress I may want to be less obvious.

None of that's a criticism, I think in fact that is exactly the kind of thinking the game intends to evoke in players, what strategy do I want to adopt?  How do I pursue my goals?

Great game concept, I'd love to see you develop this further.

Quote from: BalbinusSure, but I can take a henchman into an inn with me or have him by my side inconspicuously as I walk the streets, six armed dudes attacts unwelcome attention, if I'm trying to get information on Cardinal Gutierrez's mistress I may want to be less obvious.

Dude, you're a bishop, you're expected to be ostentatious. And why are you investigating the matter yourself anyhow? That's Henchman's work!

QuoteNone of that's a criticism, I think in fact that is exactly the kind of thinking the game intends to evoke in players, what strategy do I want to adopt?  How do I pursue my goals?

Great game concept, I'd love to see you develop this further.

What I think needs to be clarified is the relationship between Bishop and Henchman: Bishops are like spymasters, whereas Henchmen are their agents. Bishops tend not to do the undercover stuff, and Henchmen tend not to do the big political moves. Y'dig?

Quote from: WarthurDude, you're a bishop, you're expected to be ostentatious. And why are you investigating the matter yourself anyhow? That's Henchman's work!

Because my henchman is busy, guarding me while I do his work.  Hm, I may need to chat with Gunther.

Quote from: WarthurWhat I think needs to be clarified is the relationship between Bishop and Henchman: Bishops are like spymasters, whereas Henchmen are their agents. Bishops tend not to do the undercover stuff, and Henchmen tend not to do the big political moves. Y'dig?

I think that's fairly clear, though it does no harm to underline it.

What do you think about giving some guidelines for what different levels of intrigue and wealth mean and some automatic success rules for stuff plainly within your wealth category?  Without that as written having lower than 50 wealth even for a henchman is not such a good idea.