I've been toying with an idea how to make a d&d-ish modern/future system that would make 'sense' in regards of large-caliber weapons (like autocannon or such) vs. medium-size characters, while using as much as possible standard combat resolution in vehicle combat. D20 modern didn't really do it for me, for reasons I've forgotten...

So, I thought that maybe the size chart would be the answer: against medium targets, small, medium and large weapons deal their noted damage. Medium weapons would deal 2x damage against tiny targets and x1/2 against huge targets, x1/4 vs bigger than huge and so forth. Armor would be dr mostly. Most rifles are medium, pistols small and atgm:s large, autocannons huge, tank guns colossal (or somesuch, don't remember the sizes now) size category.

Maybe I'm overthinking this. Are there any ideas I could mine?

I tried variable successive damage, and it works so far.

The weapon has a damage, and each successful strike allows for a re-roll to double damage.  There is a maximum allowed extra damage rolls depending on the size of the weapon.  It makes it easier for a 56 cal Springfield Rifle to kill in one shot in combat.

You could do a graduated damage scale something like:

Standard Field Cannon - 5 inch Projectile
Small target to Medium Target (Living) - Success = Death
Large Target (Living) - Success = Damage

Small to Medium Target (Structures) - Success = Damage + Structure Fail Modifiers
ETC...

Just an idea, not sure how detailed you want damage

Well, the thing is as I'd include also massive damage save and probably cyborg/android tech, I think there would be reasonable chance for apds or shrapnel merely damaging chassis instead of vital parts. Good stuff though, thank you!

So. The idea I've been bouncing around is a setting inspired by Ghost in the Shell, Appleseed, Knights of Sidonia, Patlabor, Starship Troopers, Mechwarrior and Pacific Rim et al. In other words 'military scifi', although the system should be scalable to enable smooth and intuitive transition from individual to vehicle combat, and still give the players an idea that it is stupid to challenge a tank on foot... At least without correct weapons.

Why use d&d style system? Because I want to. I think DCC and LotFP will be the lethality level I seek, limited advancement in specific classes, skill based on career, background and class... And stuff. I won't do psionics and such magic expys, although I'm tempted to give hacker types some fast programs or such utility for battlefield use.

Thoughts?

If a bullet drills through more flesh (aka, a bigger monster), wouldn't the weapon do more damage, not less?

I've never been sure if the Damage vs. Large in AD&D was a good idea, but the above reasoning made sense to me. Of course, I also didn't understand halflings with huge HP.

Quote from: Spinachcat;953783If a bullet drills through more flesh (aka, a bigger monster), wouldn't the weapon do more damage, not less?

I've never been sure if the Damage vs. Large in AD&D was a good idea, but the above reasoning made sense to me. Of course, I also didn't understand halflings with huge HP.

If you calculate the damage as "amount of viscera hurt", yes.
If you calculate the damage as "percentage of viscera that remain unhurt", bigger monsters sure have the advantage!

And personally, I like how BRP/RQ/Mythras systems make Size one of the advantageous factors.

Okay, so now I have following (for now): Jecht (1st level human pilot, dx 15 in 10, background mechanic) is climbing to his type-27 (large bipedal mech, handling +1 sensors +2 targeting +1, ac 14 soak 2 hp 4d10 (20)) to intercept enemy huge mech and accompanying infantry squad. He rolls d20+int+pilot level+handling vs dc 10 to quick-boot the mech (success, so he's ready next turn to act). He grabs an mech-size ar from rack (large assault rifle, 2d4) and dashes outside. The infantry gets initiative and opens up with ordinary ar:s, scoring 3 burst hits against ac 15 (base 14 +1 dx, no more from handling). Damage rolls (2d4 +1 burst) come up as 3, 6 and 7. Since mech has soak of 2, they become 1, 4 and 5, and since medium-large hard target, they would be halved, fractions down- 0, 2 and 2. No crits were made but light mechs can be hurt by infantry weapons. In return Jecht lays full auto fire on squad; 7 squaddies make ref saves against dc 10 (again base 10 +1 pilot level +1 dx mod -2 recoil), with 3 failing and taking 2d4 +2 burst x2 size damage. All drop being level 0 soldiers. Next round they are pinned, and cannot hit Jecht; but he has more immediate problems as enemy mech fires atgm (huge missile, 2d10) against him. He detects the launch rolling 18 +2 sensors vs dc 12, so attack doesn't get surprise, but is success anyhow; enemy rolls badly and gets only 5 points through, but size increases it to 10, hence causing an critical being equal or more than single hd of Jecht's mech. He has 6 hp left and crit blew his targeting system, so he tries to disengage...

Anyhow, however bad this may look like, might it be salvageable?

Take a look at how D6 games do Size modifiers.

Also, there were some D20 mech games in the past. They might be worth scavenging for ideas.

I really like your list of inspirations for your game.

Quote from: AsenRG;953856If you calculate the damage as "amount of viscera hurt", yes.
If you calculate the damage as "percentage of viscera that remain unhurt", bigger monsters sure have the advantage!

And personally, I like how BRP/RQ/Mythras systems make Size one of the advantageous factors.

If damage were percentage-wise, wouldn't huge monsters and small ones have about the same damage points?

If there are only a few size categories, a percentage-wise damage system only offers that many levels of distinction in size. So if for example small humans and large humans are both "medium" size, then how do you represent the difference in damage capacity between them for something like a brawl? Say you have a healthy featherweight and an unhealthy but very large person, and you want the same damage system to model both their different ability to get beat up, but also their reactions to more serious injury (like an arrow through their arm)  - how would that work?

Quote from: AsenRG;953856And personally, I like how BRP/RQ/Mythras systems make Size one of the advantageous factors.

Exactly what I thought, not sure how'd you'd integrate it into a D&D base system but this is very elegantly handled in RQ/BRP.

Quote from: Skarg;958387If damage were percentage-wise, wouldn't huge monsters and small ones have about the same damage points?

If there are only a few size categories, a percentage-wise damage system only offers that many levels of distinction in size. So if for example small humans and large humans are both "medium" size, then how do you represent the difference in damage capacity between them for something like a brawl? Say you have a healthy featherweight and an unhealthy but very large person, and you want the same damage system to model both their different ability to get beat up, but also their reactions to more serious injury (like an arrow through their arm)  - how would that work?

short anwser yes and no.

Long anwser depends on how much the system accounts for the size difference d&d being a very good example as every thing from a dwarf to the biggest of humans are a mediums.
Part of what you do run in to is how meany size categorys you really want after a certain point it simply becomes easier to increase the dmg/hp numbers a bit then adding more size catigorys.
Now its not to say that it cant be done and that there arn't certain advantages to the size approach.

Quote from: ant;957900Okay, so now I have following (for now): Jecht (1st level human pilot, dx 15 in 10, background mechanic) is climbing to his type-27 (large bipedal mech, handling +1 sensors +2 targeting +1, ac 14 soak 2 hp 4d10 (20)) to intercept enemy huge mech and accompanying infantry squad. He rolls d20+int+pilot level+handling vs dc 10 to quick-boot the mech (success, so he's ready next turn to act). He grabs an mech-size ar from rack (large assault rifle, 2d4) and dashes outside. The infantry gets initiative and opens up with ordinary ar:s, scoring 3 burst hits against ac 15 (base 14 +1 dx, no more from handling). Damage rolls (2d4 +1 burst) come up as 3, 6 and 7. Since mech has soak of 2, they become 1, 4 and 5, and since medium-large hard target, they would be halved, fractions down- 0, 2 and 2. No crits were made but light mechs can be hurt by infantry weapons. In return Jecht lays full auto fire on squad; 7 squaddies make ref saves against dc 10 (again base 10 +1 pilot level +1 dx mod -2 recoil), with 3 failing and taking 2d4 +2 burst x2 size damage. All drop being level 0 soldiers. Next round they are pinned, and cannot hit Jecht; but he has more immediate problems as enemy mech fires atgm (huge missile, 2d10) against him. He detects the launch rolling 18 +2 sensors vs dc 12, so attack doesn't get surprise, but is success anyhow; enemy rolls badly and gets only 5 points through, but size increases it to 10, hence causing an critical being equal or more than single hd of Jecht's mech. He has 6 hp left and crit blew his targeting system, so he tries to disengage...

Anyhow, however bad this may look like, might it be salvageable?

Well one idea I have had for the game I am working on is rather then size category I've been thinking or using classifications for weapons and targets.
For example in your example what would have happened if the infantry had fire a bunch of disposable rockets like the kind in a plastic tube the us military uses for destroying verticals and light armor? How dose the system account for that? Being as it a weapon that should be conceivably effective against the mech in the example.

Yes; LAWs and RPGs would be very effective. I thought it that such handheld AT weapons would be large, being effective against large targets and somewhat effective against huge lightly armored targets.

Also, I think that there could be some extra effects for different ammo; one size up for HEAT, soak ignoring for APDS, etc. Sorry, on the phone now, can't get everything written now as little screen annoys me greatly.

Quote from: ant;959339Yes; LAWs and RPGs would be very effective. I thought it that such handheld AT weapons would be large, being effective against large targets and somewhat effective against huge lightly armored targets.

Also, I think that there could be some extra effects for different ammo; one size up for HEAT, soak ignoring for APDS, etc. Sorry, on the phone now, can't get everything written now as little screen annoys me greatly.

Okey I'll wait till you can give a more detailed response so as to make sure we are on the same page.

Sorry about delay- I've been busy with work and studies! And still am stuck with phone. Anyhow, the idea behind correlating weapon size and target size into damage rules follow logic of using mostly scalable damage (although I'm yet to solve the problem of pistols vs humans), in effect hopefully creating somewhat logical model in d&d:ish ruleset. Aim is that there wouldn't be chance or at least significant probability that players would use HMGs to pop tanks, or that they'd go "come at me brah" against an APC even, without proper tools. I remember (although I may recall wrong, too) that CP2020 rules allowed for such, and I can see how 'mere' d20 rules could end up in hp-shaving contests.

I want to use modified massive damage rules to enforce lethal combat of the genre. Of course these rules alone would suffice, but in order to combat hp inflation, particularily when dealing with vehicular combat, I think that leveling the damage die across sizes would make the combat also more tactically challenging. Most vehicles, even modern MBTs, are often incapacitated with single good hit, and I cannot see mechs being more armored or indeed durable than, say, Challenger 2. With the size affecting dealt damage (and ammo type modifiers taken into account), the RPG is more suitable tool than old 40mm grenade rifle in Taking out a light mech- but 40mm would still have decent chance of damaging mech, representing concussion/spall damage, wiring, etc.

Of course, the aforementioned genre conventions also dictate that there should be ways to challenge heavy gear with inferior equipment. I think such grasping the straws would be served with class features and dividing criticals into critical hits and critical damage: for instance a hit would disable tracks, jam turrets etc in order to disable. Crit damage would cook off ammo, burn fuel and such, most commonly resulting in destruction. How to retain balance between these, and how to scale it to meatbags... I'm not yet there with my line of thought.

Also to make armor matter, I think most effective modern armor should be represented with soak. Mere AC increase seems (ATM) as insufficient to provide heavy vehicles with protection against light weaponry, and conversely when made high enough to protect also make the vehicle impossible to hit with dedicated AT systems if the shooter is a normal NPC. Damage classes might work: but that seems too much hassle in my perspective, I've mostly played rolemaster since 90s... And spacemaster was too much!

Ugh... I don't know wether these answered any questions at all, I can't even see more than last 3 rows of my own answer

Quote from: ant;960328Sorry about delay- I've been busy with work and studies! And still am stuck with phone. Anyhow, the idea behind correlating weapon size and target size into damage rules follow logic of using mostly scalable damage (although I'm yet to solve the problem of pistols vs humans), in effect hopefully creating somewhat logical model in d&d:ish ruleset. Aim is that there wouldn't be chance or at least significant probability that players would use HMGs to pop tanks, or that they'd go "come at me brah" against an APC even, without proper tools. I remember (although I may recall wrong, too) that CP2020 rules allowed for such, and I can see how 'mere' d20 rules could end up in hp-shaving contests.

I want to use modified massive damage rules to enforce lethal combat of the genre. Of course these rules alone would suffice, but in order to combat hp inflation, particularily when dealing with vehicular combat, I think that leveling the damage die across sizes would make the combat also more tactically challenging. Most vehicles, even modern MBTs, are often incapacitated with single good hit, and I cannot see mechs being more armored or indeed durable than, say, Challenger 2. With the size affecting dealt damage (and ammo type modifiers taken into account), the RPG is more suitable tool than old 40mm grenade rifle in Taking out a light mech- but 40mm would still have decent chance of damaging mech, representing concussion/spall damage, wiring, etc.

Of course, the aforementioned genre conventions also dictate that there should be ways to challenge heavy gear with inferior equipment. I think such grasping the straws would be served with class features and dividing criticals into critical hits and critical damage: for instance a hit would disable tracks, jam turrets etc in order to disable. Crit damage would cook off ammo, burn fuel and such, most commonly resulting in destruction. How to retain balance between these, and how to scale it to meatbags... I'm not yet there with my line of thought.

Also to make armor matter, I think most effective modern armor should be represented with soak. Mere AC increase seems (ATM) as insufficient to provide heavy vehicles with protection against light weaponry, and conversely when made high enough to protect also make the vehicle impossible to hit with dedicated AT systems if the shooter is a normal NPC. Damage classes might work: but that seems too much hassle in my perspective, I've mostly played rolemaster since 90s... And spacemaster was too much!

Ugh... I don't know weather these answered any questions at all, I can't even see more than last 3 rows of my own answer

Let me start by saying sorry i have been off line since may1st because of an event my family go's to each year.

Well with the goals you have let me start off be saying dump size as the modifier and change it to a weapon/target classification system (it should fix your pistol problem if its what i think it is) the reason i bring this up it that then something as big as a ww2 bazooka is a small. some thing like infinty, light armor heavy armor, navel, capital, or some such should work just make sure there a little place on the sheets to mark what class the weapons and targets are even if they seem obvious.
at that point it would be nothing more then playing with numbers also you may want to take a look at battletech one of that games strong points is its scaleiblity its the one game I know of that can model A bunch of marines having a fist fight on a drop ship thats burning up in reentry.