This warrants its own thread. One of the primary focus here is to give examples of settings where the power structure of 4E, the notion that a martial character (and all other characters for that matter) would have Encounter and Daily powers available to them... all this stuff would actually make sense within the context of the game world.

From this post:

Instances where the power structure in the 4E core books could make sense in game world terms to me:

   - The characters are robots (or clones, or pre-human experiments etc) with specific combat moves programmed into them. Their memories reboot after an encounter partially, whereas some more complex routines need to be rebooted after an extended rest (dailies). This would explain why some complex combat moves could only be performed once. This is a limitation inherent to the character's nature.

- The universe itself limits the capabilities of the characters. It could be an edict of the Gods, or some universal Law of the Cosmos. Maybe the game is all about a competition taking place in some artificial universe. Or the whole game world in fact is a virtual reality generated by computers. Or something similar that implies that the laws of nature themselves force these limitations onto the characters.

Applications could include a universe where PCs are pre-human heroes trying to break free from the rules of the Gods, the Architects, whatever forces controls them, or a d20 Modern game where characters may enter a virtual reality that is in effect a 4E game within the boundaries of the virtual world/matrix, and so on, so forth.

Also, from that post:

   - A -literally- dark setting, with people cowering in Citadels (the "points of light" thing makes me think of Citadels in the night, with torches burning, keeping the darkness at bay), and Heroes somehow touched by the night and allowing them to perform feats beyond human capabilities. A bit like Corum with his hand and eye, some alien touch that could both allow them to be super-heroic, but also would at times limit or control their actions (which would explain the rules, and maybe could involve some other mechanics like Sanity, switching personalities when the alien thing takes control of the character, or whatever else).

Another idea I just had is related to something I read in the PHB explaining that, though Martial powers for instance are generated by the Martial power source, basic attacks and movements are not generated by power sources at all. In other words, Martial powers are supernatural, though not magical. They are not moves and stuff that a mundane warrior can pull off. This is something that belongs to a real of Martial mastery beyond simple sword moves.

   - The Power sources could actually be reflections of the archetypal essences that once formed the Gods. Then, somehow, the Gods died/were slaughtered/killed during a Ragnarok/whatnot. The PCs basically are the reincarnations or avatars of the Gods, but they are far removed from their original spirits, and connect with them via the power sources. Powers, then, are manifestations of their connections to their original being. Some connections can be manifested all the time (at-will), while others are so potent and straining on the PC's mortal coil that they only can be pulled off once in a while (encounter/dailies). The more the character grows, the more the connection to his origins deepens (he gains levels, which means more powers, swaps for higher, more potent emanations of his origins, etc). In the end, if the PC achieves his epic destiny, his original self is truly reborn to the world. (the divine power source then could be either a more direct link to one's origins, or a gradual discover of one's origins through the worship of one of the current Gods who went through the same evolution the PC is presently experiencing!)

What do you guys think?

Any other ways in which, for you, the 4E mechanics could make sense, if they don't already?

I think the skill challenges are well suited to an investigative csi type game. You'd need a bit of work redefining the skills, though.

Pete

Sure Ben, I'll take a stab at it...

Quote from: BenoistAnother idea I just had is related to something I read in the PHB explaining that, though Martial powers for instance are generated by the Martial power source, basic attacks and movements are not generated by power sources at all. In other words, Martial powers are supernatural, though not magical. They are not moves and stuff that a mundane warrior can pull off. This is something that belongs to a real of Martial mastery beyond simple sword moves.

Emphasis mine.  If you really ride this hard, you could come up with a lot of settings or flavors that work, I think.  Your "superpowers" or "God-touched gifts" are good ones.  Another buzzword to add to this list might be "chi" or some other reserve of personal strength and willpower.  I think this was originally on the slate to be its own Power source in 4e before Monk fell under the Psionic umbrella.

On to some more specific setting ideas.  In one, Martial powers are actually derived from ancestral memory.  Depending on the specifics of your setting, your family, tradition of training (class), maybe even clan (could manifest as build within your class) all come together to determine your heroic abilities.  While I wouldn't go so far as to say that your family's ghosts grant you daily use of your powers, I think it is interesting flavor to say that your ancestral memory combined with training inspire your new powers when you get them.  Because of whatever mythological forces at play, the special powers can only be used so many times.  I rather like the thought of being temporarily partially possessed or glimpsing all of your ancestors in battle when you use your encounter/daily powers - maybe such an ordeal really wrecks the system!

Here's a more "meta" solution: The setting/universe operates on Fractured Fairytale logic.  In other words, the setting knows it's in a story and you play that way accordingly.  Discworld is written in this way - the whole series operates in story logic: If a state has a grand vizier he WILL be evil.  If a hero is faced with 1000:1 odds, he WILL succeed.  I might consider trying to play 4e the way I used to play D&D Basic, where the whole world operates by the game rules: you can tell someone's class by the clothes they wear, and no one would dare think to look for a elven cleric adventurer because that isn't in the rules.  Up the cheese.  If you do this, you don't have to bother apologizing or explaining encounters and dailies.  I'm not saying you should turn your game into a joke - but to simply enjoy it at face value.  We never seemed to mind playing Basic this way as long as we played this way consistently.

These are really cool ideas. I really like them both, WB.

Maybe have an Mythical Asia setting for the ancestral memory? That could just fit perfectly.

As to the Fractured Fairytale logic... that totally would work. I hadn't thought of that.

I really like that Citadels/Corum idea.

Exalted 4e would be cool.   The martial powers work fine in that setting...and when you blow your daily, your aura really glows.   I always loved Exalted's "glowing like a fireball" side-effect to using too many motes of energy in a battle.

Quote from: Spinachcat;404149I really like that Citadels/Corum idea.

Exalted 4e would be cool.   The martial powers work fine in that setting...and when you blow your daily, your aura really glows.   I always loved Exalted's "glowing like a fireball" side-effect to using too many motes of energy in a battle.

Thanks, mate. The glowing effect is a cool idea. In a world of surrounding darkness as I was describing with the Citadels idea, that could work really well in terms of themes and aesthetics, and emphasize that PCs truly are special, beacons in the dark... cool.

This is an interesting thought exercise. As I mentioned elsewhere, I don't have a problem grokking 4e powers in the context of any given game world, but I'll try to drum up something...

In a swords & sorcery setting, martial powers I see as the kind of effort Conan puts in as he lops the head off one frost giant and cuts the other one's leg off at the knee. It's a supreme physical exertion fueled by madness and desperation, one where his body is tasked beyond its normal limits and which can't be repeated until after he rests his abused muscles and tendons. Weary unto death, he is still a prime physical specimen and can still function, but his ability to channel vitality itself is lessened until he can take a long breather.

Conan and others like him live in a world more feral in nature than even our own prehistory, in which everything is afire with the pure essence of vitality, an essence that can be drawn upon by sheer force of will. The inhabitants of this world can unconsciously draw upon this essence, tearing it from the fabric of reality and making it their own.

The downside is that this essence, this pure distilled lifeforce, burns like a spiritual fire, supercharging whatever it touches, but which, like a mundane fire, consumes whatever it touches. This doesn't change spellcasters much, since they have learned to distance themselves from the touch of the essence.

Martial powers are based on pure physicality, meaning that the users of those powers don't just distance themselves from it, they embrace it in a literal sense. It courses through their bodies, allowing them to push their bodies beyond normal limits. Mundane matter has its limits, though, and can only withstand a certain amount of being overcharged.

I think I may have rambled a bit...

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;404221I think I may have rambled a bit...

Nope. All good, from where I'm standing.

I wouldn't look at it the way you do, since I couldn't wrap my mind around the notion you could spend a level 1 Martial daily/lifeforce on a particular move, not be able to perform it again this day, and yet, be able later to perform a level 9 Martial daily instead. Huh? Why can I still do that level 9 daily, and not that level 1 again? It's still "lifeforce", ain't it? See what I mean? (that's a rhetorical example - I know this works for you, and it's fine. All I'm saying is that I find your own explanation unsatisfying for my own purposes).

Quote from: Benoist;404497Nope. All good, from where I'm standing.

I wouldn't look at it the way you do, since I couldn't wrap my mind around the notion you could spend a level 1 Martial daily/lifeforce on a particular move, not be able to perform it again this day, and yet, be able later to perform a level 9 Martial daily instead. Huh? Why can I still do that level 9 daily, and not that level 1 again? It's still "lifeforce", ain't it? See what I mean? (that's a rhetorical example - I know this works for you, and it's fine. All I'm saying is that I find your own explanation unsatisfying for my own purposes).

Different moves tax different muscles and body parts.

Never quite understood why they had the martial/primal split and the striker/defender split in 4E D&D, other than maybe video game style influences.

I was thinking about this today.  File off all the fantasy-genre stuff, and the very core system would work pretty well as an actual supers game.  The type of powers would have to be expanded a bit to encompass some that are not directly combat related (regeneration, ESP, etc.), but that would be do-able with not too much effort.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;404499Different moves tax different muscles and body parts.

I wanted to add some thoughts to this.

Some powers may seem to be essentially the same as others that are less efficacious. So why can't the character use Pimp Smack again after using it once today, but still can perform the Dolemite Super-Slap? It's the same kind of question I remember way back in my early 1e days - "so how come I can't cast another Magic Missile when I can still cast Meteor Swarm?"

There is a big difference, of course, in that martial powers are supposedly based on physical ability rather than harnessing magical power, and thus comparison is not really possible. Still, I guess decades of dealing with such questions makes it second-nature for me to come up with the D&D equivalent of Star Trek's technobabble at the drop of a hat - "well, the character steels himself, drawing upon his frustration of having used his Pimp Slap until his hand hurts, and channels it into the Dolemite Super-Slap as he opens a can of whoop-ass."

I can't recall if 4e's designers ever tried to explain it like that, but y'know, they should. I think too often in the 3e and 4e era the designers have eschewed providing rationalizations that could help clear up some of the problems players have in grokking what some elements of the game were intended to do or emulate. I'm sure they have their reasons - the explanations would probably be the grist for even more contentious internet arguments. But I, personally, would love to see them cut through the nonsense and say "look, this is what it's meant to do; don't be dicks about it!"

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;404499Different moves tax different muscles and body parts.

I see. That could make sense. That's one hell of an abstraction though, taken this way, you gotta admit.

Quote from: StormBringer;404503I was thinking about this today.  File off all the fantasy-genre stuff, and the very core system would work pretty well as an actual supers game.  The type of powers would have to be expanded a bit to encompass some that are not directly combat related (regeneration, ESP, etc.), but that would be do-able with not too much effort.

Oh, I completely agree. I bet we'll see even more supers-like stuff in Gamma World.

Quote from: StormBringer;404503I was thinking about this today.  File off all the fantasy-genre stuff, and the very core system would work pretty well as an actual supers game.  The type of powers would have to be expanded a bit to encompass some that are not directly combat related (regeneration, ESP, etc.), but that would be do-able with not too much effort.

That's true. That's also why it might work really well with mutants and all sorts of weird like in the new Gamma World 4E too.

PS: Heh ninja'd by the Colonel on this one. Great minds and all.