Am I serious? Sure. Am I crazy? Most likely. Do you care? Probably not, but if you do, read on.

I've always had an urge to tinker with game mechanics - creating, tweaking, fixing stuff, like a greasemonkey working on his car. I've been playing for almost 20 years, and designing for nearly that long. d20 has offered an unprecedented ability to tinker with the rules, and to ensure that those rules are more or less balanced - before, you had to eyeball it, and even then it might only work for your group.

Over the past 5 years, I've rewritten several major subsystems (crafting, turning, movement/encumbrance, traps) and tweaked over a dozen lesser rules (several skills, bardic music, death/dying, temp hit points, starting wealth, epic pricing, etc.), most of which can be found on our site ("our" being mine and my friend's). I started messing with skills a few weeks ago, just because I was bored, but then I discovered something - skills inform just about every other rule and subsystem in the game, from races to spells to combat. Since d20 has been more or less fixed in stone, though, I figured I might as well just go whole hog and fix all the other crap that needs fixing too.

My design philosophy: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it works and it makes sense, don't change it.

The two questions I ask myself when I make/adjust something are: "Does it work?" and "Does it make sense?" If the answer to either of those is "No," then it needs to be either dropped entirely or reworked so it does.

I don't plan to go the Paizo route, changing things without regard to the above rules (combining Sleight of Hand and Open Lock into the same skill, for example). I definitely don't plan to to the Wizards route and toss the entire system out the window and start over from scratch - that's way too much work for one person, and stupid to boot. I DO plan to borrow the best parts of other systems to which I have access - 4E, Pathfinder (yeah, there are a few good parts), UA, Upper Krust's epic rules, etc. - and adapt them to this ruleset.

This will not be 3.9. It will definitely not be 4E. It will start out as 3.6, but by the time it's all said and done, it'll likely be closer to 3.7. Basically, I want to keep the ruleset recognizable, fix what doesn't work, and add in new stuff that will make it work better.

To this end, I started with a flowchart of sorts. I opened Excel, made a list of rules and subsystems, and plotted them on the chart. At the very top, we've got the basics (ability scores/modifiers). Just below that are bonuses, actions, and skills, which trickles down to the races, feats, and creature types, then spells, magic items, monsters, and eventually, at the very bottom, combat. It was kind of surprising how things fell out, but having a visual representation of all the rules systems is a definite help in seeing how things fit together, and it'll be useful to see what should be done first, second, etc.. I'm also following a thread on ENWorld listing common complaints/problems with the game. I want to make a system that scales well, that can be used at just about any level of play (let's be reasonable here - very few groups go much beyond 50-60th level, because it's just insane after that, but if I can make a system that will work for the vast majority of gamers, I'll be happy).

I tend to work on the low end of the power spectrum, which could be a good thing - we can all agree there's been a definite power creep from 1E to 4E, so I don't think 3.75 will be much more than 3.5 (and might even be a little less).

If there's some interest, I can post the things I've done so far, or post links to them as files (which might be better). Currently, I'm working on feats; I've got the basic stuff, types/subtypes, abilities, and conditions done, and skills are mostly done (still working on combining Listen/Spot into one skill, and trying to fix the cross-class problem).

Come on over to my house, man.

I think there are a few folks with this same concept - but with different ideas about what 3.75 means to them.

But I'd love to take a gander at your spreadsheets and stuff. Sounds like a plan I would like, given flowcharts...

Quote from: James J SkachCome on over to my house, man.

That's what I was thinking.

Yeah, but go for it, man!  You've got a passion for it, have some ideas you want to try them out, do it.

How are you doing the Listen/Spot merge?  Sort of an uber-Observe skill, I imagine?  Keep the DCs about the same for each?

QuoteHow are you doing the Listen/Spot merge? Sort of an uber-Observe skill, I imagine? Keep the DCs about the same for each?

I came up with a variant Spot system last year, and it works great... if you're only using the Spot skill. I'm trying to come up with something similar for Listen, so I can combine them, but it's proving harder than I thought. Sound doesn't travel as far or as fast as light, of course, and I'm having trouble getting a handle on what the base increment should be - how far away can you reasonably hear someone speak (just the sound, no words)?

For you guys (and anyone else who's interested), I've put up a zip file with the spreadsheet (which has the chart and a tab with tasks I've set for myself), The Basics, Races, and what I've got so far for Skills. I just got the grappling rules hammered out (borrowed them from Paizo - OGC, baby!), so I'll get the feats done tomorrow. Comments are welcome.

Quote from: KerrickI came up with a variant Spot system last year, and it works great... if you're only using the Spot skill. I'm trying to come up with something similar for Listen, so I can combine them, but it's proving harder than I thought. Sound doesn't travel as far or as fast as light, of course, and I'm having trouble getting a handle on what the base increment should be - how far away can you reasonably hear someone speak (just the sound, no words)?

For you guys (and anyone else who's interested), I've put up a zip file with the spreadsheet (which has the chart and a tab with tasks I've set for myself), The Basics, Races, and what I've got so far for Skills. I just got the grappling rules hammered out (borrowed them from Paizo - OGC, baby!), so I'll get the feats done tomorrow. Comments are welcome.

OK, that's weird. I went down the same path - using a kind of range approach (similiar to what you use for ranged weapons). I think my numbers might even be similar to yours. Yours is much more polished - mine was scrawlings and graphs in a notebook

IIRC, the concern with sound for me was that sound depends a bit more on the medium in which it is traveling as well. But don't hold me to that - I'd have to dig out and organize all of those notes...

Did you join over one d20 haven - are you the new guy? :haw: If so, thanks - and welcome!

QuoteOK, that's weird. I went down the same path - using a kind of range approach (similiar to what you use for ranged weapons). I think my numbers might even be similar to yours. Yours is much more polished - mine was scrawlings and graphs in a notebook

To be fair, I had a good bit of help hammering out the basics.

QuoteIIRC, the concern with sound for me was that sound depends a bit more on the medium in which it is traveling as well. But don't hold me to that - I'd have to dig out and organize all of those notes...

Sound travels roughly 5 times faster in water than air - it's around 300 m/s in air and 1500 in water. Given the inherent differences between sound and light, it might just be easier to leave them separate skills. Especially since blindness and deafness do different things - I mean, being blind could incur a penalty on Perception checks and make you fail all sight-based checks, but that's kind of a judgment call. I dunno.

QuoteDid you join over one d20 haven - are you the new guy?  If so, thanks - and welcome!

I popped over there to check it out, but I didn't sign up. It looks interesting, but very little traffic.

Here's my beta version of the fighter. This class can learn and advance in different combat styles, and gains greater weapon abilities. I'm batting around some vague idea about swapping out Mastery/Grandmastery with focus and specialization in weapon groups (a la UA) and leave those other two for a PrC (the Weaponmaster) along with a few weapon-specific abilities.

The moderate save progression is similar to d20 Modern: 1/2 level - 1.

Yeah, the sword/board combat style doesn't have a name yet. I can't think of a good animal name for it; I'll probably go with something non-animal. I'm also missing a 4th level ability.

Frenzy is supposed to be the only 4th level ability for the Wolverine style; I can't think of anything that would be as good, and it's a good topper for that style anyway.

Fighter

  Hit Die: d10.

  Class Skills: The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (combat and tactics) (Int), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

BAB: Good
Saves: Fort high, Ref moderate, Will poor

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armor,  and all shields (including tower shields).

Combat Style: At 1st level and every 5 levels thereafter (6th, 11th, and 16th), a fighter can choose a combat style, or increase his level in a style he already has. There is no limit to the number of combat styles a fighter can learn. See below for a list of combat styles.

Bonus Feat: At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feats normally granted by advancing levels. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. He must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Weapon Specialization: At 5th level, the fighter gains the Weapon Specialization feat for free, applied to any one weapon with which he has the Weapon Focus feat.

Greater Weapon Specialization: At 10th level, the fighter gains the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for free, applied to any one weapon with which he has the Weapon Specialization feat.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At  level, the fighter gains mastery with any one weapon with which he already has Greater Weapon Specialization. The weapon's threat range is increased by 1. This stacks with feats or spells that increase a weapon's threat range, like Improved Critical or keen. A feat or spell added to the weapon does not take into account the bonus from this ability when determining increased threat range, however – for example, a longsword (19-20) wielded by a 10th level fighter would be 17-20; a keen longsword would be 15-20, not 13-20.

Weapon Grandmastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter gains grandmastery in a weapon with which he already has mastery. He can gain grandmastery in only one weapon. The crit multiplier for this weapon is increased by 1. For example, a longsword (x2) would be x3; a greataxe would be x4. This ability stacks with any enchantments or abilities from other sources that increase the crit multiplier.


Combat Styles
  Fighters, alone among the classes, have the ability to train in a particular fighting style. Besides making them very individual, this gives them great benefits in combat. Four combat styles are listed below, but the DM can make more, or a player can do research to create his own.

  Each style has four levels – a fighter can choose a level I ability at 1st level, a level II ability at 6th, etc. At 6th, 11th, and 16th fighter levels, he can choose an ability from a lower style level, or choose to train in a new combat style entirely.

The Way of the Cat
[sblock]The Way of the Cat emphasizes speed and grace over power and strength. Specialists in this style dance around the battlefield, striking here, dodging a blow, then moving around to strike from a different direction. They are renowned for acrobatic stunts like swinging from ropes and chandeliers, diving from rooftops, and running up a wall to flip over an opponent and strike from behind.

  Fighters who choose this style are often swashbuckler types who wear light or no armor and use light weapons – daggers, rapiers, whips, longswords, etc. Many also take levels in rogue or bard to increase their combat prowess. Dexterity is the preferred stat, along with Intelligence, for fighters who choose this style.

Level I
  Acrobatic: The fighter gains a +2 bonus to Acrobatics and Climb checks.

  Quick Draw: The fighter has the Quick Draw feat applied to any weapon with which she is proficient.

Level II
  Blinding Strike: Once per combat, during the fighter's first round of actions, she can draw her weapon and make a single attack as part of her attack action – this is considered the first attack. If the target is denied its Dex bonus (such as during the surprise round), she can make a sneak attack if she has the ability to do so.

  Improved Disarm: When wielding her chosen weapon, the fighter can make disarm attacks as if she were using the Improved Disarm feat (+4 to the attack roll, no attack of opportunity, and no chance for the opponent to retaliate).

Level III
  Rapid Strike: Once per day per point of her Dex bonus, the fighter can make an extra attack at her highest base attack bonus as part of her normal attack routine.

  Greater Disarm: When disarming a foe, the fighter can choose to make the weapon go in a certain direction – for instance, she can make her opponent's dagger fly through the air to strike someone else (requires an attack roll at -4), or throw a sword up into the air so that she can catch it herself (requires a DC 17 Dex check). Obviously, the size of the weapon being disarmed limits what can be done with it; a good rule of thumb is that Light weapons can be used to make ranged attacks, Medium weapons can be directed in a particular direction up to 10 feet away (but not as a ranged attack), and Large weapons can be directed up to 5 feet away.

Level IV
  Greater Blinding Strike: Once per day, the Weaponmaster can make an attack with her chosen weapon before any other attacks are made during an encounter (even before initiative is rolled). In order to use this ability, she cannot be flat-footed and must be within 5 feet of an opponent (she can make a 5-foot step to attack). This attack is made at her highest attack bonus, and is exclusive of any other attacks made that round. Feats like Cleave or Great Cleave that grant extra attacks cannot be used in conjunction with this ability. If the target is denied its Dex bonus, the fighter can make a sneak attack.

  Superior Disarm: The penalties for disarming a weapon of another size are halved, as are any bonuses the opponent receives from holding the weapon with two hands. The DC for catching another weapon is reduced to 15, and the penalty for making ranged attacks with Light weapons is reduced to -2.[/sblock]


Way of the Bear
[sblock]The focus of this combat style can be summed up in one word: power. Specialists are almost always hulking brutes, as great strength (and often large size) is required to wield large weapons (greatswords, heavy maces, greataxes, etc.) to greatest effect. Those who follow this style are often slow to attack, but they rely on their heavy armor to protect them from attackers while they give as well as (or better than) they get.

  Strength, followed closely by Constitution, are the main stats for fighters who choose this style.

Level I
  Imposing Size: The fighter can use his sheer size (and the threat of his huge weapon) to intimidate opponents. He can use his Strength bonus instead of Cha, if it is higher, when making Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents; he also gains a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks in general when wielding his weapon.

  Oversized Weapon: The fighter can use a weapon of one size larger without penalty, due to his strength and proficiency with wielding large weapons.

Level II
  Dazing Blow: If the fighter uses Power Attack to strike a foe and scores a hit, the target must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 damage) or be dazed for one round. This ability can be used once per round.
  Mighty Strike: Once per day per three class levels, the fighter can declare a mighty strike. As a standard action, he can make a single attack at his highest base attack bonus, with a +4 bonus. If the attack hits, he deals double damage. If the attack scores a crit, the crit is applied first, then the damage is doubled. This ability cannot be used in conjunction with Power Attack.

Level III
  Crushing Blow: If the fighter attacks a helpless opponent (including one denied its Dex bonus) or attempts to sunder an unattended object, he automatically deals double damage on a successful strike. If he makes a critical hit, the crit is applied first, then the damage is doubled. This ability can be used once per round, anytime during the normal attack routine, but not in conjunction with Power Attack.

  Pounding Strike: If the fighter takes a -4 penalty to his attack roll, he can knock an opponent of the same size or smaller back 5 feet, or knock it prone, with a successful attack. The choice to knock it back or prone must be made before the attack is made, and it requires a standard action. If the fighter chooses to knock his opponent back, treat it as a bullrush with a +1 bonus to the attacker's Strength check per 5 points of damage dealt. If the fighter chooses to knock his opponent down, treat it as a trip attack, except that if he fails to knock the opponent down (but still hits), the opponent cannot make a counter. If the fighter misses entirely, the opponent can counter.

Level IV
  Dire Charge: If the fighter makes a successful attack as part of a charge, he deals double damage. If the attack scores a critical hit, the crit is applied first, then the damage is doubled.

  Stunning Blow: If the fighter uses Power Attack to strike a foe and scores a hit, the target must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 damage) or be stunned for one round. This ability can be used once per round.[/sblock]


Way of the
[sblock]The Path of the combat style (colloquially called "sword and board") is by far the most common of all the styles. Within the discipline itself, though, the individuals vary widely. Some choose to use a buckler and a light weapon like a rapier or longsword, gaining minimal defense while maintaining speed and grace, while others favor the more conventional light shield and sword, mace or hammer; still others (usually the larger fighters) go for a heavier shield and a heavy bludgeoning weapon like a heavy mace or morningstar, bashing opponents with their shields as often as their weapons. True defensive fighters choose the tower shield, using it to create a bulwark behind which other party members can shelter. These fighters work best in conjunction with others of their type, however; a shield wall formed by fighters with tower shields trained in this combat style is near-impregnable.

  Constitution, followed closely by Strength, are the stats of choice for fighters who train in this style.

Level I
  Deflect Weapon: By sacrificing one of his attacks for the round, the fighter can deflect an opponent's weapon away from his body. He gains a +2 bonus to attack that opponent for the rest of the round, and the opponent suffers a -2 penalty for the rest of the round as it attempts to get its weapon back in line. This ability cannot be used with a tower shield. If the fighter has already made his attacks for the round, the attack is counted as the first of the next round's actions.

 Shield Focus: When using a shield of any type, the fighter's shield bonus is increased by +1 for each level he has in this combat style.

Level II
  Improved Cover: A fighter using a light, heavy, or tower shield while fighting defensively gains a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against spells and effects.

  Shield Rush: When using a shield and performing a bull rush, the fighter gains an additional +2 bonus to his opposed Strength check to push his opponent back (this stacks with the +4 from Improved Bullrush). This ability can only be used with a heavy or tower shield.

Level III
  Bulwark: A fighter using a light, heavy, or tower shield grants his shield bonus (up to his Con bonus) to an adjacent ally as well as himself. This benefit lasts until his next turn or the ally moves away, whichever comes first. The fighter suffers a -2 to attacks while using this ability, since he is putting some of his attention on his ally. He can use this ability each round as a free action – he must declare it before he acts.
  Shield Strike: The fighter can make a disarm attempt with his shield by striking with the edge of the shield at his opponent's hand/arm. Due to the awkwardness of the move, he suffers a -2 penalty to the attack roll (this applies even if he has Improved Disarm), but the opponent does not get a chance to disarm him in turn if it fails. This ability cannot be used with a tower shield.

Level IV

  Spell Deflection: The fighter can add his shield bonus to his touch AC against rays and other touch attack or ranged touch attack spells.[/sblock]


Way of the Wolverine
[sblock]Fighters who choose this style are specialized in close-quarters combat; they typically fight either unarmed or with short stabbing or slashing weapons – daggers, short swords, hand axes, etc. They rarely use a shield (thought some choose a buckler), as it impedes their abiilty to grapple their opponents, and seldom wear anything heavier than medium armor. They are often experienced grapplers, closing on their foes quickly and pinning them down so they can beat or stab them repeatedly before the enemy can react.

  Strength and Dexterity are equally important to fighters who choose this combat style.

Level I
  Improved Unarmed Strike: The fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free.

  Great Escape: The fighter is more adept at getting out of holds and pins placed on him by others; he gains a +2 bonus to his check when attempting to break free of a grapple.

Level II
  Close Quarters Fighter: The fighter suffers no penalty to attacks made against his opponent while involved in a grapple.

  Dirty Fighting: The fighter deals an extra 1d4 points of damage from melee attacks made while invovled in a grapple.

Level III
  Crippling Strike: When striking with a light weapon as a standard action, the fighter can strike an opponent's weak spot such that it deals 2 points of Strength or Dex damage (fighter's choice). Ability points lost to damage return at the rate of 1 point per day of rest. He can use this ability while involved in a grapple.

  Pounce: The fighter can leap up to 10 feet and make an attack against his target. This grants him a +2 bonus to the attack roll. He can also attempt to grapple the target as his attack, in which case he gains a +2 bonus to his CMB for the check (and the opponent must make a Strength check with the fighter's attack roll as the DC or fall prone). This ability cannot be used if the fighter is wearing heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavier load.

Level IV
  Frenzy: 3 + Con bonus times per day, the fighter can go into a frenzy as a free action. He gains a +2 bonus to Strength and Dexterity and gets an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus, but all attacks suffer a -2 penalty due to his unfocused rage. The frenzy lasts for 3 rounds, +1 round per point of his Con bonus.

  If he is not currently in melee combat or a grapple, the frenzy drives him to engage the nearest opponent; if that opponent dies or flees, he moves to the next, etc. If there are no more opponents left but there are allies within his reach, he must make a DC 15 Will save to avoid attacking one of them (though he is not drive to move to engage them) each round until the frenzy wears off.[/sblock]

No offense - and I can't emphasize that enough given this medium's tendencies with respect to being clear, but this might be where we respectfully part company.

I like what you've got here. I think it's interesting as a kind of supplemental rule set or alternative approach (particularly with the different Way of stuff - I like your stuff better than, for example, ToB:Bo9S), but it goes beyond what I would do for a core rule set.

When I think about a 3.75 (or whatever you want to term it), I think about stripping out prestige classes and rethinking the existence of feats - stuff like that. So this could just be a different set of assumptions about what "3.75" means.

I am still interested in your stuff - like I said I like aspects of what you've done here - so I'll keep looking and you're always welcome over this way. And I'm still very interested in your methods - as much or maybe even more so than the actual content; if that makes sense at all...

Good Luck!

No offense taken - you can't please all the people all the time and all that...

I'm kind of curious: if you could fix 3.5, what would you do? What do you mean by "rethinking the existence of feats"? I agree about PrCs, to some extent - there are way too many of them, and most exist simply because the base classes are too bland. This was part of the reason for the expansion of the fighter - give players more reason to stay with it and do cool things as a fighter, not as a .

QuoteI am still interested in your stuff - like I said I like aspects of what you've done here - so I'll keep looking and you're always welcome over this way.

Thanks! Any feedback at all is better than none; even if you're not interested in my vision of 3.75, comments on invidual bits would be very helpful and much appreciated.

QuoteAnd I'm still very interested in your methods - as much or maybe even more so than the actual content; if that makes sense at all...

Kinda sorta. I'm doing a design diary, too, to explain the method behind my madness. I've only got one entry so far, which is basically the same as the first post in this thread, but I'll be updating as I can. You can find it here, if you're interested.

In short, my goals are to:

Fix things that need to be fixed (broken rules, things that simply don't work, or subsystems that are totally different from the core, like turning).

Give more options and flexibility without ramping up the power level.

Scale things so that they work reasonably well at all levels (there's a reason to get more than a +15 in a skill, for instance).

Fix things at lower levels that provide problems at high levels (immunities, BAB/save progressions, spells, etc.).

Quote from: KerrickI'm kind of curious: if you could fix 3.5, what would you do? What do you mean by "rethinking the existence of feats"? I agree about PrCs, to some extent - there are way too many of them, and most exist simply because the base classes are too bland. This was part of the reason for the expansion of the fighter - give players more reason to stay with it and do cool things as a fighter, not as a .

PrC just seemed...overkill to me. I'd rather look at ways to make the core system, even with the "blandness" inherent in the base classes, more customizable at higher levels - like you did, to some extent, with the fighter.

Feats - I don't know, I just never felt comfortable with them. I'd rather see them implemented through the skill system as opposed to their own subsystem (I think that's the best way to describe my sense of it). This would mean taking a look at the way weapon skills are used and tracked, rolling them into a more general skill system, as well. So you take Long Bow use as a skill, and that's your attack bonus (as opposed to just you BAB for all weapons with which you are proficient). Now if you want to attempt some maneuver like what the Manyshot feat provides, you just take the negative that would apply to anyone trying it and it's offset by your expertise (rank) in Long Bow skill. Something along those lines, anyway.

One of my main reason for this is the implications of feats and how people start to think along lines of the specific maneuvers allowed. I'd rather a more open approach that comes from the perspective that anyone can try anything, negative modifiers are applied, and your skill is taken into account. But that's my personal view - I'm sure it's get taken apart by someone

Quote from: KerrickKinda sorta. I'm doing a design diary, too, to explain the method behind my madness. I've only got one entry so far, which is basically the same as the first post in this thread, but I'll be updating as I can. You can find it here, if you're interested.

I did check out the wiki from the link you provided about...Spot was it? You had mentioned a spreadsheet and a flowchart and so I've been curious about how you're laying out the stuff you see needs work and how you move through the process. Does that help explain?

QuoteWhen I think about a 3.75 (or whatever you want to term it), I think about stripping out prestige classes and rethinking the existence of feats - stuff like that. So this could just be a different set of assumptions about what "3.75" means.

Yeah, it seems like it. You want a pure skill-based system, which is a lot more bookkeeping, I think. I rather like feats, because they're simple - you take it, it applies a bonus or an ability or whatever, and that's it.

QuotePrC just seemed...overkill to me. I'd rather look at ways to make the core system, even with the "blandness" inherent in the base classes, more customizable at higher levels - like you did, to some extent, with the fighter.

What I'm trying to do is focus more on archetypes and give them abilities that reinforce them and make them fun to play, while giving them a variety of abilities to choose from so that Joe Fighter or Bob Monk the same as every other Joe Fighter or Bob Monk. Sure, fighters are pretty customizable as is, but feats are boring, and a common complaint is that many other classes can out-fight the fighter at high levels - clerics and druids especially.

QuoteI'd rather a more open approach that comes from the perspective that anyone can try anything, negative modifiers are applied, and your skill is taken into account.

You don't need a skill-based system to do that. Say I want to run up the wall and flip over the head of the orc chasing me, to land behind him. The DM notes that I've been running for 20 feet, so he says "Make a DC 15 Dex check." If I'd done it from 10 feet back, it could be DC 20.

QuoteI did check out the wiki from the link you provided about...Spot was it? You had mentioned a spreadsheet and a flowchart and so I've been curious about how you're laying out the stuff you see needs work and how you move through the process.

I thought I'd provided the link in my second post, but I forgot it. Here it is.

Quote from: KerrickYeah, it seems like it. You want a pure skill-based system, which is a lot more bookkeeping, I think. I rather like feats, because they're simple - you take it, it applies a bonus or an ability or whatever, and that's it.

I'm curious as to why a skill system based on d20 is more bookkeeping than the same skill system with feats?

Quote from: KerrickYou don't need a skill-based system to do that. Say I want to run up the wall and flip over the head of the orc chasing me, to land behind him. The DM notes that I've been running for 20 feet, so he says "Make a DC 15 Dex check." If I'd done it from 10 feet back, it could be DC 20.

You don't need a feat system to do it, either - as is obvious by your example. It's just different ways to skin a cat...

Quote from: KerrickI thought I'd provided the link in my second post, but I forgot it. Here it is.

Got it! Thanks!

QuoteI'm curious as to why a skill system based on d20 is more bookkeeping than the same skill system with feats?

I mean, if you apply different skill levels with different weapons, you'd have to keep track of all those diffrent skills, instead of having one melee attack bonus and one ranged attack bonus. Course, Weapon Focus and racial bonuses factor in too, so I guess it's not really much different.

Quote from: KerrickI mean, if you apply different skill levels with different weapons, you'd have to keep track of all those diffrent skills, instead of having one melee attack bonus and one ranged attack bonus. Course, Weapon Focus and racial bonuses factor in too, so I guess it's not really much different.

Yeah, I mean, you could have a generic skill for melee combat if you wanted - maybe even based on style (two weapon versus weapon and shield versus whatever). But given feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Specialization, Two Weapon Fighting, etc. (not to mention all the "greater" versions..well..all kinda starts to look the same to me from a bookkeeping perspective :haw:

An 3.5+ system is an admirable goal, but harder than it sounds.  From what I can tell from looking at Pathfinder and other proposals, everybody's got their own idea of what constitutes an "improvement" and what constitutes outright heresy. For example, I started out as an ardent advocate of Pathfinder, but rapidly backpedaled from it as, in my opinion, it is closer to a D&D 3.95 than 3.75. And 90% of the suggestions I see are just people advocating for their personal pet peeve or R0X0r homebrew rule.

I looked over the documents that you posted and looked over the link to the Spot system. While the system is without a doubt a more detailed method of obtaining a Spot DC, my question to you is, "What good does it do?" Frankly, it looks like the beginnings of an entirely new system! When is a Spot check going to be so important to the game that it needs 5 tables and what I would estimate to be about 3 pages of typed text to calculate? Outside of a narrow band of standard DC check ranges, when would you need so much detail?

Now, the above is not intended to be a personal attack, but rather more of a reality check. There are definitely some rough spots in 3/3.5 that could use a good polishing. I think your flow chart is an interesting idea (although it could use some elaboration--that is explanation) and could provide good guidance and necessary constraints. But, as soon as you start talking about rebalancing (itself a loaded and relative term) all the classes, the weapons, and the armor, you're not talking about incremental changes anymore, you're pushing up into the wholesale rewrite territory.

I would suggest a very narrow and well-defined set of goals for the initial effort, but just getting a consensus on, say, the top 3-5 things that are a problem with 3.5 is going to be a real bitch.

My personal thoughts on the matter (for what it's worth):

1) Multi-class spellcasters (could be fixed with gestalt classes, but still needs something to balance the advantages)
2) clerics
3) (probably) fly-buff-teleport (although Rituals from 4E may be the one good idea that could be easily back-filled into 3E and could help address this)
4) DR/Golf-bag-o'-weapons (could be fixed by reverting to 3E rules or using Monte Cooks proposed fixes (which are similar to 3E's rules))
5) Turning

I would look forward to seeing further discussion on the matter, regardless.