I always thought when one uses the term rollplaying they were refering/deriding the fact, that certain systems relied on dice rolls to determine aspects of rpgs that normaly one would role play - social interactions for example. This made it seem immature and some how wargame -ish. After all it is supposed to be a roleplaying game.

So, even though there was a lot of roleplaying going on in a roll heavy system, the mere fact of having to rely on dice rolls meant that your games were somehow inferior to what is actualy supposed to happen in a roleplaying game. (Nevermind the fact, that you could have been exploring some really heavy stuff in your rollplaying adventure)

So, no I don't really think there is a difference between between roll and role in terms of what exactly happens around most gaming tables, but it sure does mean something on online rpg discussions - which lets face, really has very little relevence (online discussions) to most gamers.

I play mostly with people who game as opposed to gamers. I can't articulate the difference, and yeah I know ol' JimBob goes "if you play rpgs, you are a gamer" , but I still think there is a difference. And one of the things that seems to preoccupy most gamers is this roll/role debate...

Regards,
David R

As I see it so far, we've got the following oppositions:

Tactical combat vs character acting
Gamism vs Narrativism (?)
Fantasy Wargaming vs Method Acting
Lots of dice vs few dice
Violent vs thoughtful (?)
More combat vs less combat
Heavy rules vs light rules (?)

Quote from: droogFine, but what do you actually mean by it? Same as above?

I consider a minmaxer a rollplayer, and someone who enjoys being in character a roleplayer.

QuoteGamism vs Narrativism (?)

We hates it.

What if you scored points for quality of narrative and/or improvisational acting?  I can understand Game >> Not Game, and Narrative >> Not Narrative... but Game and Narrative aren't on the same spectrum, let alone being two discreet points on that spectrum that represent "Game" and "Narrative.

Here -- since we can't ever get away from it, let's fix GNS.  

Instead of being G, N, or S, all games have varying amounts of G, N or S in them.  Other letters too.  They're not interdependent though -- you can have a lot of one without having to have less of any others.  If you've got a game with lots of N in it, you might want to look at some GNS stuff about N.  You might have lots of S in it too -- so don't forget that stuff as well.

Now, if JimBobOz is correct, this won't catch on without a funky name so that people can show their RPG theory cred by dropping it into conversations.  So let's call it the Fruitcake Model.  It's the holiday season, fruitcake has lots of different stuff in it, blah, blah, blah...

I'll look into setting up a website, wiki, and online store for the Fruitcake Model, but we can start jargonizing with it right away.

Looking at Rolle's Theorem, and living in Canada (c'est magnifique!) I'm definitely a Rolle Player.

I think there are two distinct context that the terms can be used in.

The first is the common usage. In every case where I've heard it simply used as a term it's been a sneer. It's I-game-better-than-you. The speaker has always been the "roleplayer" except for a very few cases where the speaker was being decidedly contrarian--but was still better-than-the-target.

The second is when someone is trying to determine the sort of etymology of the terms. In this conversation people are asking (as we see here) "what exactly does that mean" or are using stated assumptions about what the terms mean ("using the dice is seen as implicitly contrary to 'story' which is bunk") and talking from there.

In this case, I think there's a theory that people mean something specific by the term. I doubt that's really true. Roll-playing is certainly some kind of spectrum for hack-and-slash but the spectrum is entirely based on the person speaking. One person's soulful roleplayin' is someone else's weak, shallow, roll-playing.

I think it's a personal value statement and there isn't much beyond that.

-Marco

Quote from: James McMurrayI consider a minmaxer a rollplayer, and someone who enjoys being in character a roleplayer.

Don't Hate the Player Hate the Game

Quote from: MarcoIn this case, I think there's a theory that people mean something specific by the term.

It's more like a theory that people think the term means something specific.

I don't hate either styles of play. I enjoy both. Most of the players in our group are roll players first, but not afraid of roleplaying.

@James McMurray:  That wasn't meant to be directed at you personally.  Your post was just the best one to quote to work in that lyric

People have used "rollplaying" in a derogatory way for ages.  I bought into that way of thinking back in the 80s, and in hindsight it was pretty dumb.  I'm starting to see people use it in a reclaimed way, which is kinda cool -- but it still usually comes up as a snide remark.

I think roleplaying is the method through which you interact with the gameworld in an RPG.  You don't need to be standing on your chair and giving a shakesperean performance -- even saying that your character goes over to the chest and searches for traps is roleplaying.  If there's no roleplaying at all... it's probably an abstract boardgame of some kind.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckYes, clearly what I meant was that everyone uses the term perjoratively all the time, in every instance.

If you don't mean it, don't say it.

I've heard the term enough to know there are various meanings. Saying "people mean X when they say rollplaying" is wrong, no matter how you cut it.

And no, rollplaying and hack n' slash are not the same. At least they aren't for everybody.

"rollplaying" is a phenomenon that exists, its when people play an RPG as if it was entirely mechanics-based, using that in place of actual playing in character.

This was something that originated in the earliest days of D&D, "rollplaying vs. roleplaying" was initially an argument made within the D&D game.

The problem was that subsequently, the Swine took over the terms to try to paint the RPGs they disliked (D&D, in the case of Vampire, who used the "roll vs. Role" thing not just in the original Vampire but in the latest WoD 2e, just so that you don't think its all in the past) as being "all rollplaying".  These days, when someone uses that phrase its almost certainly the case that they're a Swine (either WW or Forge variety) and they're just using it as a mindless, meaningless insult against D&D.

In fact, its particularly ironic in the case of Forge games, almost all of which could be much more readily accused of being "rollplaying", since almost all of them insist on trying to resolve anything that normal gamers resolve through roleplaying by the use of gimmicky mechanics instead.

RPGPundit

Thank you for that message from our sponsor.

Quote from: droogElliot, I'd just add to your post that there are obviously people identifying with the term 'rollplaying' as well. I suppose you can see that in the sense of reclaiming identity (cf. 'nigga'), at the cost of some clarity.

Yes.

Also, what Marco said.

The terms have become completely useless. Whatever they might have had to say one time is concealed behind the fact that introducing them to a discussion immediately and very reliably poisons the well. It comes with a bias laden with value judgement, hindering further communication instead of making it easier. Even GNS is a better model than that.