Quote from: droogBut roll/role doesn't seem to describe those things very accurately.

Perhaps true in the beginning but probably irrelevant now. The words have had staying power.

"Gay" doesn't describe homosexuality very accurately either. In fact, it doesn't describe homosexuality at all.

Quote from: droogOkay, given that roleplaying is the default word for the activity, is rollplaying inherently a sneer?.

Among those who use it yes.

It's meant to describe the type of player who sees an NPC and rolls initiative.

Quote from: droogOkay, given that roleplaying is the default word for the activity, is rollplaying inherently a sneer?.

It's inherently a cheesy play on words.

Anyway, I'm just trying to demonstrate that it can be a meaningful way to analyze play (and player) styles, if you take it out of an insulting context.

Quote from: YamoI don't consider DitV to be an RPG, as it fails to meet the list of qualifications in my sig.

Also, I already gave you my definition of "rollplay" and it didn't include not thinking. You'll notice that I didn't define them literally.

Yes, I read your definition and I understand what you mean by it. I want to know if that's what everybody else means by it.

For the purposes of this thread, DitV fits your description. But, relax, I'm not trying to force Forgey stuff on you. It's just that most games don't go that sort of thing very well.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckBeing a "roll-player" does not involve not thinking.

Yes I get that. I'm talking about what the word seems to imply (ie rolling dice).

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckAmong those who use it yes.

Well, that can't be true, since I've known people people who didn't use it as a sneer. As usual, a bit of perspective might help.

Some people use it as a sneer, some people don't.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckIt's meant to describe the type of player who sees an NPC and rolls initiative.

The behavior you refer to is more often refered to as "hack n' slash", I believe.

Quote from: droogSo are some people using them as synonyms for 'gamism' and 'narrativism'?

Nope, two different false dichotomies.

"Rollplaying" has the inherent bias that dice are bad. Most of the times I've seen it used this avoidance goes beyond sheer common sense. It's some kind of "anti-gamism". If at all, the Forgites use more mechanical systems (whether it's dice or bean counting) to improve narrativism.

Guys who use "Rollplaying" are probably the same who would use "Rulemaster".

I don't like to roll for everything. Some players would probably like it if I rolled more Diplomacy and avoided judging their performance. But I don't see some kind of invisible barrier between rolling dice and acting it out. Those two aren't mutual exclusive.

Quote from: droogOkay, given that roleplaying is the default word for the activity, is rollplaying inherently a sneer?.

Yes--I agree that it is.

This is true of many, probably all of the gamer classification systems. That is:

1. One class is obviously the preferred, "correct" one. Others are, at best, treated patronizingly.

2. More important, the unprivileged class practically vanishes in discussion of what people actually enjoy. That is, once the details of the value system are understood, everyone believes that they're playing the "right" way. In practice, the "other" way is always something that someone else is doing. "Roll playing" is really just a way of saying, "more combat (or more reliance on mechanics) than I, personally, like." Nevermind that somebody else out there would judge the speaker's game as "roll playing".

It's like the world of audio. I assemble a system of carefully-matched components with quality cabling. Anyone who spends markedly less than I do is a philistine; anyone who spends more (say, on separate CD transport and D/A converter, and $100/ft. speaker cables) is a looney.

The categories in short are just vectors indicating relative position in a continuum. The only way to bring a degree of objectivity into the discussion is to either (a) sample the population and create normative borders based on the distribution (direct or normalized quartiles, or possibly empirical observation of some kind of modal clustering), or (b) claim an inherent qualitative method of distinguishing categories, such as "feedback cycles".

(a) is expensive. Some work has been done in market research by WotC. I got  this link from a discussion that appeared earlier on this board. Unfortunately the data and methodology aren't publicly available. But if we take the conclusions at face value, they tell us that there really are empirical clusters in the gamer population. However, they don't tell us how to figure out where someone stands in graph. Just as a person's self-description as "centrist" or "moderate" politically may have little relationship to their actual position in the political spectrum relative to the rest of the population, the perception of value or identity in a given category can easily overwhelm empirical or normative analysis. (I.e., people who pick up on the positive connotations of ""role-player", or who identify with the implicit complaint against "roll-players", are going to self-identify as the former unless there are clear standards and benchmarks for categorization.)

As for (b), well, I'm skeptical.

I have no idea what you guys are going on about, because I rolleplay....

Regards,
David R

You're French?

Quote from: droogYou're French?

No, but I run games that way

Regards,
David R

Quote from: droogYes I get that. I'm talking about what the word seems to imply (ie rolling dice).

What the word implies is that someone games differently than you, therefore you decry them as bad.

See also: video game-y, monte haul, hack n' slash, munchkin

The terms themselves come and go, but there's always a segment of the gaming populace who thinks their way is the one true way and everyone else's game is shit.

Quote from: Consonant DudeWell, that can't be true, since I've known people people who didn't use it as a sneer. As usual, a bit of perspective might help.

Some people use it as a sneer, some people don't.

Yes, clearly what I meant was that everyone uses the term perjoratively all the time, in every instance.

QuoteThe behavior you refer to is more often refered to as "hack n' slash", I believe.

The terms are the same thing. Just like monte haul and munchkin and video game-y.

Someone's game is different than yours to a degree that you would find unacceptable, so therefore their game is shit (even though you're not playing in it, never have and never will).

There's been a segment of the gaming populace like this from its earliest days.

What can you say, some people are assholes.

Elliot, I'd just add to your post that there are obviously people identifying with the term 'rollplaying' as well. I suppose you can see that in the sense of reclaiming identity (cf. 'nigga'), at the cost of some clarity.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckWhat can you say, some people are assholes.

I myself am guilty of using the term 'hack-and-slash' a long time ago, before I gained some perspective.

But what I'm trying to do is see whether these particular terms have any coherence. It's been argued both ways.