I think we're really arguing realism and style. I see where you are coming from, though.

I left out another thing:

If final death is a possibility and the possibility is .. significant? Then players will avoid danger. ( Because in order to play the game you have to keep your PC 'alive'. ) Some GMs really appreciate this- they want players to think their way through situations or negotiate rather than go into battle.

I know this sounds pretty crazy, but I'm just the opposite. I want the players to get into all kinds of dangerous situations, and to do so willingly-- even eagerly. And I want all the other stuff too- I want them to negotiate with certain encounters and work out puzzles and think their way through too. But I definitely want crazy battles and PCs bravely (or otherwise) going forth into danger without me forcing them into it.

So things like magical healing and such are a way to allow players to manage that risk on their own.

QuoteIf final death is a possibility and the possibility is .. significant? Then players will avoid danger. ( Because in order to play the game you have to keep your PC 'alive'. ) Some GMs really appreciate this- they want players to think their way through situations or negotiate rather than go into battle.

I know this sounds pretty crazy, but I'm just the opposite. I want the players to get into all kinds of dangerous situations, and to do so willingly-- even eagerly. And I want all the other stuff too- I want them to negotiate with certain encounters and work out puzzles and think their way through too. But I definitely want crazy battles and PCs bravely (or otherwise) going forth into danger without me forcing them into it.

This is why I think the underlying conflicts of interest that lead to all kinds of in-between solutions, derivative games and even derivative hobbies is:

Pirates of the Carribbean vs Master & Commander

Quote from: SettembriniThis is why I think the underlying conflicts of interest that lead to all kinds of in-between solutions, derivative games and even derivative hobbies is:

Pirates of the Carribbean vs Master & Commander

I think you totally nailed it.

My players know I can and will kill their characters at any time. I think this is what makes my games worthwhile.  The danger of character death is ever present, the risks are real, and the rewards become all the sweeter. Fuck, the very fact of surviving the session becomes a rewarding experience.

The problem is today players are, as a rule, spoilt whiny bitches, and GMs are emasculated wusses.  And yes, the Swine are directly to blame.

RPGPundit

QuoteThe problem is today players are, as a rule, spoilt whiny bitches, and GMs are emasculated wusses. And yes, the Swine are directly to blame.

Lo, and behold! It was no one other than Mike Mearls who nerfed the poor rust monster to "fair" levels; so that it shall die a horrible death, when it's "spell like rust" wears off, while the plate armour is in his stomach! There at us, Pundit! They are coming for us! They try to take it away from us!
They are everywhere!

Quote from: RPGPunditMy players know I can and will kill their characters at any time. I think this is what makes my games worthwhile.  The danger of character death is ever present, the risks are real, and the rewards become all the sweeter. Fuck, the very fact of surviving the session becomes a rewarding experience.

:bow:

Quote from: RPGPunditThe problem is today players are, as a rule, spoilt whiny bitches

My players are generally hard-nosed, daring and ridiculously savvy of the possibility of biting it most of the time.  Of course, we do have a set of pampers on hand, just in case anyone insists on rules lawyering.  The point can be settled by the player in their favor in exchange for wearing the pampers on their head for the remainder of the session.

Yes. I mean of course that MY players aren't whiny bitches, I mean most players are.
 
Most of the ones who are drawn to my campaigns are already willing to risk from the beginning, and not come in with a sense of entitlement. The ones that are either learn fast and realize that its a lot more fun when there's a real chance of losing, or they decide that I'm not the right master for them and go off to play Exalted or some so-called "narrativist" game that lets them get what they like/be what they want to feel good about themselves.

Its the RPG equivalent of the "everyone's a winner" school of children's sports. Give everyone the big blue ribbon, even though that inherently makes said ribbon meaningless.

RPGPundit

Once in a while my players ARE whiny bitches, and that's when we break out the pampers.  And the killing REALLY begins.  :axe:

Quote from: ReimdallOnce in a while my players ARE whiny bitches, and that's when we break out the pampers.  And the killing REALLY begins.  :axe:

(Can I just say I'm really glad someone finally used that smiley?  I wanted to use it for the past week, and couldn't seem to find the right opportunity).

Dude - I think that's one of the prime reasons I post on this site!



:toast:

:verkill:

I guess that my experiences differ from some, perhaps due to playing with friends and family, as opposed to strangers.

Not that I don't have some "whiny" players, but I've never had a problem dealing with it.  I do use "kid gloves" at times, especially if running a one-on-one campaign, since the player is the only star.  Otherwise, I have never had a problem with Raise Dead/Resurrection/Healing.

This is not to say that the risk has always lived up to the reward, since I am anything if not inconsistant (and I'm a fairly lenient DM).  Of course, I do use DM fiat left and right.  I blatantly ignore rules and I haven't even attempted to utilize the CR/EL system (and don't plan on starting).  I give arbitrary experience and arbitrary rewards.  I hate running published modules and I hate being bogged down in minutae.  If a character dies, he creates a new character (not that I wouldn't allow some sort of raising, it just hasn't happened).

So, why do my players want me to run a game?  Because, they have fun.  I have not had a game die because the players stopped having fun, except when I try other non-D&D games.  My games always die when my fickle nature gets the best of me.

Do some of my players want more "empowerment"?  Maybe, but I'll be damned if I'm allowing a magic shop to open across the street...