Last week, I got a new Star Wars B-Wing (the big one for action figures) for my collection of toys. On Saturday/RPG/Gaming Day, I was showing it off to my best friend when we fairly spontaneously started playing with Star Wars action figures like we were little kids.
Now, aside from the childishness of this, which will surely brand me on these boards forever, there were some observations I made about RPGs from this. One thing is that the figures were sort of the "character sheets." Their representations, as well as our shared knowledge of the Star Wars movies and the characters in them, provided the definitions of the characters terms of personality and capabilities. Another thing is that we each played more than one character. We controlled a wide range of figures in our play, and these characters were mixed heroes, villains, NPCs, and mooks distributed between the two of us. Finally, there was no GM. We played adversarial roles against our own characters and each others'. Things happened merely because we wanted them to happen. Each player had equal authorial power.
The only goal was entertainment. Immersion was not a goal, and may not have been attainable in the circumstances. Competition wasn't a goal because there was no competitive framework, and the goal was too vague to define quantitively and therefore not valid for clear competion. Plus, competition or disagreement would have ruined the goal of the play in this case. Authorial decisions were made solely based on the goal of whatever created more enterainment. Also, there was no way to be passive. Passiveness would kill the play. Both players had to be proactive and drive the play.
It struck me that this is what the Forge is after, exactly this style of play. However, instead of starting with two people who want the same goal and merely want to play a story, they seem to start with the concept of two people who can't agree, who have some desire for oneupsmanship and need an outside arbitrating force of rules and a GM to then force them through those rules and arbitration to tell an appropriate story.
Another thing to think of: Is playing with action figures an RPG or not? Why so? My attitude is that it is not. Playing with the figures is about play. It isn't about competition, which is why RPGs need a GM to arbitrate matters (sometimes to provide outside competition to the players) and rules to facilitate things and provide a framework and boundary for the competition.
Quote from: GabrielNow, aside from the childishness of this, which will surely brand me on these boards forever
Yes, you are branded as
awesome.
The other night, my 2-and-a-half-year-old hauled out her Playskool Little People Farm Set, some Playskool Little People, and a blanket. (The blanket goes on the floor under the farm house.) I was then invited to play farm.
Upon joining, I found that I was having more fun than she was.
I started riffing on everything I could think of, giving the different figures names, personalities, voices, goals, running jokes...you name it. A Little People princess in a pink dress became Sarah, The Princess of Pink, and she had such a fascination with noodles (and the consumption thereof) that a room in the farmhouse playest was soon designated as Noodle Country for the sole purpose of giving her someplace to invade; on the other hand, Wally Mart, a mustachioed Weeble in a baker's hat, tried unsuccessfully to sell The Five-Dollar Kangaroo to Chuck the Prince of Cars ("Hey, how-a you eh-doing? 'Ey, Chuck, you wanna buy kan-a-ge-roo? 'E's a verra, verra nice-a kan-a-ge-roo, see, he got-a nice-a bow, ehhh...? He's a-just five-a dollers...!")
Twenty, thirty minutes of me talking to myself, while Lily kind of moved little guys around and tried to keep up with Daddy's wild, wild little world of Sleepy Wizards and lackadaisical, obsessive royalty.
That tapped into a creative part of me that I had kind of...I dunno, tried to control as a Serious Adult Gamer. I let go of the constraints of, you know, sense, and just started creating characters, places and situations without any worries about demographics and themes and mapping and pacing.
The best part is, she still thinks "Noodle Country" is funny. And she's right.
I have maintained for years that roleplaying is a natural skill, not a learned one. Kids roleplay all the time, spontaneously, without ever being taught. I can sit down with any normal 2-8 year old and in minutes we will be roleplaying - with action figures, dolls, hotwheels cars, plastic dinosaurs, wet dishrags, or nothing but our imaginations. Try the same with adults and it's almost always... awkward. What has happened is that most adults have forgotten how to roleplay, and forgotten they ever did it. It's like they got re-programmed at the Middle School level. That is why I contend we don't need "How to roleplay" junk. "Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed. It's the game part that's odd, not the roleplaying.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmice"Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed.
So Frankie's only half-right.
Quote from: GabrielIt struck me that this is what the Forge is after, exactly this style of play. However, instead of starting with two people who want the same goal and merely want to play a story, they seem to start with the concept of two people who can't agree, who have some desire for oneupsmanship and need an outside arbitrating force of rules and a GM to then force them through those rules and arbitration to tell an appropriate story.
Well, you two guided events consensually, organically creating events through your own actions. Though there's no GM or rules present, it seems pretty indicative of ideal traditional play. You work things out while retaining your freedoms as individuals and whatever happens, happens.
Quote from: flyingmiceI have maintained for years that roleplaying is a natural skill, not a learned one. Kids roleplay all the time, spontaneously, without ever being taught. I can sit down with any normal 2-8 year old and in minutes we will be roleplaying - with action figures, dolls, hotwheels cars, plastic dinosaurs, wet dishrags, or nothing but our imaginations. Try the same with adults and it's almost always... awkward. What has happened is that most adults have forgotten how to roleplay, and forgotten they ever did it. It's like they got re-programmed at the Middle School level. That is why I contend we don't need "How to roleplay" junk. "Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed. It's the game part that's odd, not the roleplaying.
-clash
Now this I is something I dig. It gets to the heart of how all the rules in the world can't support roleplaying unless you are willing to take the plunge on the personal level and just go for it.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!So Frankie's only half-right.
I literally spit coke and ice on my keyboard.
The IT guys will be sending you the bill for their time.
Quote from: flyingmiceI have maintained for years that roleplaying is a natural skill, not a learned one. Kids roleplay all the time, spontaneously, without ever being taught. I can sit down with any normal 2-8 year old and in minutes we will be roleplaying - with action figures, dolls, hotwheels cars, plastic dinosaurs, wet dishrags, or nothing but our imaginations. Try the same with adults and it's almost always... awkward. What has happened is that most adults have forgotten how to roleplay, and forgotten they ever did it. It's like they got re-programmed at the Middle School level. That is why I contend we don't need "How to roleplay" junk. "Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed. It's the game part that's odd, not the roleplaying.
-clash
QFT
Even with pnemonia, my daughter wants to play "safari" with her brother. I'm not sure what evolutionary raison d'etre exists, but it's like that with pretty much every kid I've ever encountered.
And it's great, as Doc experiences, those times when you can participate. To top it all off - everyone gets to have fun!
And just so you know, Doc - it tends to be in inverse proportion to their age. I'm not sure when or why (perhaps the socialization of school and such - I'm no child psychologist), but they start to put more and more structure around it; more and more rules; wishes to play "a certain way," etc. It's very interesting to watch.
Quote from: James J SkachI literally spit coke and ice on my keyboard.
The IT guys will be sending you the bill for their time.
Coca-Cola has more money than I do, and you were the point of origin for the stream of soda.
I'm a force of nature, turkey -- you can't in that rap on
me!
Plus, you shouldn't be putting ice in your soda. Waters it down.
Oh, and you're welcome.
Quote from: GabrielIt struck me that this is what the Forge is after, exactly this style of play. However, instead of starting with two people who want the same goal and merely want to play a story, they seem to start with the concept of two people who can't agree, who have some desire for oneupsmanship and need an outside arbitrating force of rules and a GM to then force them through those rules and arbitration to tell an appropriate story.
It often seems that way. Though you'll also find people who acknowledge that the games are designed to channel play between people who already agree.
At least as important, what often causes conflict in game groups is mismatched paradigms of the purpose and methods of play. To an extent, games can suggest a common paradigm by structural means, but they can also do so on a primarily symbolic level.
In plain terms, I think the reason a lot of games "work well" is because the advertising, hype, and culture around them encourages the formation of gaming groups with homogeneous interests. Once you have that, mechanical structure doesn't really have to do a whole lot of work.
Quote from: James J SkachEven with pnemonia, my daughter wants to play "safari" with her brother. I'm not sure what evolutionary raison d'etre exists, but it's like that with pretty much every kid I've ever encountered.
We talked about this in a sociology class long ago - about kids' roleplaying in general, not rpgs. A common view is that it's part of being an intelligent social animal. In order to successfully interact with others, it helps to have a mental model of others - what they expect, desire, and know. You have to be able to put yourself in their mind to some extent to know how to behave towards them.
Humans have more complicated social structures than other animals so need more complicated mental models. When kids play like they're running a store, being a family, in a school, etc., they are building up ideas of what it is like to have those various roles.
Quote from: NicephorusWhen kids play like they're running a store, being a family, in a school, etc., they are building up ideas of what it is like to have those various roles.
So...my kid is exploring her options as a crack Stormtrooper hunter?
Swank.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!So...my kid is exploring her options as a crack Stormtrooper hunter?
Swank.
Mine has decided his calling in life is to be a Napoleonic frigate captain. :D
-clash
Quote from: GabrielAnother thing to think of: Is playing with action figures an RPG or not? Why so? My attitude is that it is not. Playing with the figures is about play. It isn't about competition, which is why RPGs need a GM to arbitrate matters (sometimes to provide outside competition to the players) and rules to facilitate things and provide a framework and boundary for the competition.
First, thanks for sharing Gabriel. =) You rock.
And I think you pose an interesting question to help explore the revelations of figurine play and how it might illuminate our understanding of what makes rpgs tick. Is playing with action figures an RPG? Or more specifically, was what you were doing with the action figures roleplaying? Unless we wanted to start splitting hairs on what an rpg actually is I think most people would agree that it wasn't a roleplaying game but it certainly was a roleplaying activity of sorts. You were certainly playing in the same way that you play with any toy. And in your play you chose to tell stories which involved playing many roles. It was not a game in the sense that it had objectives and required skill to achieve them, but it certainly had a lot in common with what we traditionally call RPGs and like many people have been saying in this thread I think there is a lot to be learned from remembering our roots here. When we get uppity about which rules are better or the way things are supposed to be we should remember that at the heart of it we want the roles not the rules when we play. The rules serve the roles or they're out. Because we can just grab a couple action figures and get by without any rules thank you very much.
=)
Gabriel what is really amusing about your original post is that Hasbro/WOTC/ Lucasfilm was trying to get gamers to do EXACTLY that about 4 or 5 years ago.
At Gen*Con all of the demos of the STAR WARS roleplaying game that were "official" were using the SW action figures and NOT 25mm figures. Many of us thought this was funny because wer knew that the majority of gamers tended to prefer 25mm figures for their RPGs.
So...all you guys needed were the SW RPG rules - and it would have looked like an official WOTC demo game from about 5 years ago.
- E.W.C.
Quote from: flyingmiceI have maintained for years that roleplaying is a natural skill, not a learned one. Kids roleplay all the time, spontaneously, without ever being taught.
[SNIP]
What has happened is that most adults have forgotten how to roleplay, and forgotten they ever did it. It's like they got re-programmed at the Middle School level. That is why I contend we don't need "How to roleplay" junk. "Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed. It's the game part that's odd, not the roleplaying.
This is really interesting. If that's the case, could it be that roleplaying theory should be concerned with what needs to be
unlearned? Like de=programming all that Middle School (or wherever the hell it comes from) conditioning? I wonder what guidelines for that sort of thing would look like?
Offhand, I'd maybe start with some basic improv principles, like "there are no bad ideas," and "work with what people throw out there." (Though it occurs to me that kids roleplaying
don't tend to embrace the "no Blocking" principle; at least whenever I play "pretend" with a kid they're bossy as hell.) I dunno, what do you guys think? I'm not sure if Theater Improv is
the way to go, but something about shedding inhibitions and giving input confidently without overthinking would be central, I think.
Peace,
-Joel
PS A "Me too," Gabriel, in asserting that you rock and are awesome.
Quote from: MelinglorThis is really interesting. If that's the case, could it be that roleplaying theory should be concerned with what needs to be unlearned? Like de=programming all that Middle School (or wherever the hell it comes from) conditioning? I wonder what guidelines for that sort of thing would look like?
Offhand, I'd maybe start with some basic improv principles, like "there are no bad ideas," and "work with what people throw out there." (Though it occurs to me that kids roleplaying don't tend to embrace the "no Blocking" principle; at least whenever I play "pretend" with a kid they're bossy as hell.) I dunno, what do you guys think? I'm not sure if Theater Improv is the way to go, but something about shedding inhibitions and giving input confidently without overthinking would be central, I think.
Peace,
-Joel
PS A "Me too," Gabriel, in asserting that you rock and are awesome.
I think that's it in a nutshell - give them confidence in themselves, de-inhibit them, get them to let their imaginations loose. It's UN-learning, not learning. This seems to work great for me - I have half a dozen high-school age kids playing in my game, and they all had to un-learn this way. The only kid who never had to un-learn was my son, who never seemed to pick up the stiffness most kids attain in middle school.
-clash
Quote from: MelinglorOffhand, I'd maybe start with some basic improv principles, like "there are no bad ideas," and "work with what people throw out there." (Though it occurs to me that kids roleplaying don't tend to embrace the "no Blocking" principle; at least whenever I play "pretend" with a kid they're bossy as hell.) I dunno, what do you guys think? I'm not sure if Theater Improv is the way to go, but something about shedding inhibitions and giving input confidently without overthinking would be central, I think.
I don't disagree with you at a meta-level. I think you have to be careful about how you express the unlearning. If you start by saying something like "it's like Improv" you turn people off. If you keep it strictly about the unlearning process and don't tie it into "it's like..." you can avoid certain flame wars. I know you weren't saying it's
the way. It's an interesting enough possibility that I'm hoping you can avoid those flame wars in your search.
Quote from: Michael MWhen we get uppity about which rules are better or the way things are supposed to be we should remember that at the heart of it we want the roles not the rules when we play. The rules serve the roles or they're out. Because we can just grab a couple action figures and get by without any rules thank you very much.
I don't think that the rules serve the Role Play anymore than Role Play serves the rules. They are different aspects of the RPG as a whole. Role Play does not equal RPG, and Rule Set does not equal RPG. RPG + Rule Set = RPG. The trick is in finding the balance that's right for you. I'm fine with action figures
with my kids. But when I want to play an RPG, I have different expectations.
For you, the Roles are more important (at least that's what I infer from your statements). For mean, it's more balance – Rules and Roles. For others, it's more Rules, less Roles. So saying you can just toos the rules and play the roles is, well, a bit uppity. :D
Quote from: James J SkachI don't think that the rules serve the Role Play anymore than Role Play serves the rules. They are different aspects of the RPG as a whole. Role Play does not equal RPG, and Rule Set does not equal RPG. RPG + Rule Set = RPG. The trick is in finding the balance that's right for you. I'm fine with action figures with my kids. But when I want to play an RPG, I have different expectations.
For you, the Roles are more important (at least that's what I infer from your statements). For mean, it's more balance – Rules and Roles. For others, it's more Rules, less Roles. So saying you can just toos the rules and play the roles is, well, a bit uppity. :D
I guess i did come off as a bit uppity. It wasn't my intention. I was just waving the flag a bit for the idea of embracing that child-like notion of make-believe as part of the hobby. I think that is where a lot of the magic happens. I didn't mean to make it sound like a campaign that everyone should play that way, but I can see it very much came across that way. What I am campaigning for is that if people are after the roleplay and are having trouble finding it they need to tap into that same attitude when they had when they were kids playing make-believe.
In the end I agree with you that an RPG is roleplay + ruleset. In fact, that is what I was saying that without the ruleset you just have a roleplaying activity but not necessarily a game. So, if you want to improve roleplay do not look to the rules, look to pure roleplay activities, like action figure playing. And what I was trying to say when I mentioned 'tossing' the rules(which is admittedly heavy-handed, like in a book-burning crusade kind of heavy-handed) was that you may find some rulesets actually hamper getting yourself into the roleplay frame of mind. In which case, feel free to let roleplay trump ruleset when the two disagree. =)
Quote from: Michael MI guess i did come off as a bit uppity. It wasn't my intention. I was just waving the flag a bit for the idea of embracing that child-like notion of make-believe as part of the hobby. I think that is where a lot of the magic happens. I didn't mean to make it sound like a campaign that everyone should play that way, but I can see it very much came across that way. What I am campaigning for is that if people are after the roleplay and are having trouble finding it they need to tap into that same attitude when they had when they were kids playing make-believe.
In the end I agree with you that an RPG is roleplay + ruleset. In fact, that is what I was saying that without the ruleset you just have a roleplaying activity but not necessarily a game. So, if you want to improve roleplay do not look to the rules, look to pure roleplay activities, like action figure playing. And what I was trying to say when I mentioned 'tossing' the rules(which is admittedly heavy-handed, like in a book-burning crusade kind of heavy-handed) was that you may find some rulesets actually hamper getting yourself into the roleplay frame of mind. In which case, feel free to let roleplay trump ruleset when the two disagree. =)
Then we are, as far as I can tell, in agreement.
Quote from: GabrielOne thing is that the figures were sort of the "character sheets." Their representations, as well as our shared knowledge of the Star Wars movies and the characters in them, provided the definitions of the characters terms of personality and capabilities. Another thing is that we each played more than one character. We controlled a wide range of figures in our play, and these characters were mixed heroes, villains, NPCs, and mooks distributed between the two of us. Finally, there was no GM. We played adversarial roles against our own characters and each others'. Things happened merely because we wanted them to happen. Each player had equal authorial power.
I went pretty much right from playing with toy cars and action figures into role-playing and, in fact, my earliest homebrew rules were for Star Wars action figures and my earliest role-playing games had no GM,the players played multiple characters, and we played adversarial roles for each other. As such, I have a pretty good idea of what I got from using a rule system and playing using the conventional GM/player structure. Can all you describe be done in an RPG? Yes. I've done it. It's how my earliest Traveller games were played. But, personally, I've been there, done that, clearly remember what I used to do and like what I do now better.
In fact, one of the reasons why I've never seen role-playing as competative or about getting stuff is that despite playing tons of board games as well as a kid, I quickly associated RPGs more closely with the cooperative imaginative play with action figures, toy cars, and Legos and not competitive board games.
Quote from: GabrielThe only goal was entertainment. Immersion was not a goal, and may not have been attainable in the circumstances.
I would think it would be difficult. What I did see, with both action figures and those early RPGs, was players who would essentially create themselves (or a version of themselves) to stick into the game for avatar play. This was less common with Star Wars figures but more common with things like Legos, Action Jacksons, MAC figures, toy cars, and other generic character toys that weren't linked to specific TV or movie properties.
Quote from: GabrielIt struck me that this is what the Forge is after, exactly this style of play. However, instead of starting with two people who want the same goal and merely want to play a story, they seem to start with the concept of two people who can't agree, who have some desire for oneupsmanship and need an outside arbitrating force of rules and a GM to then force them through those rules and arbitration to tell an appropriate story.
I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who remembers doing this as a kid because they make it sound like they've never seen or done anything like that before.
Quote from: GabrielAnother thing to think of: Is playing with action figures an RPG or not? Why so? My attitude is that it is not. Playing with the figures is about play. It isn't about competition, which is why RPGs need a GM to arbitrate matters (sometimes to provide outside competition to the players) and rules to facilitate things and provide a framework and boundary for the competition.
I've never looked at the GM as being in a competitive role or the objective being competition. Like I said, I've always seen role-playing games to be a close cousin to the sort of action figure play you described. As such, I think they can be a form of role-playing game, though I think they differ from what we normally mean by that term in some very important ways.