Last week, I got a new Star Wars B-Wing (the big one for action figures) for my collection of toys.  On Saturday/RPG/Gaming Day, I was showing it off to my best friend when we fairly spontaneously started playing with Star Wars action figures like we were little kids.

Now, aside from the childishness of this, which will surely brand me on these boards forever, there were some observations I made about RPGs from this.  One thing is that the figures were sort of the "character sheets."  Their representations, as well as our shared knowledge of the Star Wars movies and the characters in them, provided the definitions of the characters terms of personality and capabilities.  Another thing is that we each played more than one character.  We controlled a wide range of figures in our play, and these characters were mixed heroes, villains, NPCs, and mooks distributed between the two of us.  Finally, there was no GM.  We played adversarial roles against our own characters and each others'.  Things happened merely because we wanted them to happen.  Each player had equal authorial power.

The only goal was entertainment.  Immersion was not a goal, and may not have been attainable in the circumstances.  Competition wasn't a goal because there was no competitive framework, and the goal was too vague to define quantitively and therefore not valid for clear competion.  Plus, competition or disagreement would have ruined the goal of the play in this case.  Authorial decisions were made solely based on the goal of whatever created more enterainment.  Also, there was no way to be passive.  Passiveness would kill the play.  Both players had to be proactive and drive the play.

It struck me that this is what the Forge is after, exactly this style of play.  However, instead of starting with two people who want the same goal and merely want to play a story, they seem to start with the concept of two people who can't agree, who have some desire for oneupsmanship and need an outside arbitrating force of rules and a GM to then force them through those rules and arbitration to tell an appropriate story.

Another thing to think of: Is playing with action figures an RPG or not?  Why so?  My attitude is that it is not.  Playing with the figures is about play.  It isn't about competition, which is why RPGs need a GM to arbitrate matters (sometimes to provide outside competition to the players) and rules to facilitate things and provide a framework and boundary for the competition.

Quote from: GabrielNow, aside from the childishness of this, which will surely brand me on these boards forever

Yes, you are branded as awesome.

The other night, my 2-and-a-half-year-old hauled out her Playskool Little People  Farm Set, some Playskool Little People, and a blanket.  (The blanket goes on the floor under the farm house.)  I was then invited to play farm.

Upon joining, I found that I was having more fun than she was.  

I started riffing on everything I could think of, giving the different figures names, personalities, voices, goals, running jokes...you name it.  A Little People princess in a pink dress became Sarah, The Princess of Pink, and she had such a fascination with noodles (and the consumption thereof) that a room in the farmhouse playest was soon designated as Noodle Country for the sole purpose of giving her someplace to invade; on the other hand, Wally Mart, a mustachioed Weeble in a baker's hat, tried unsuccessfully to sell The Five-Dollar Kangaroo to Chuck the Prince of Cars ("Hey, how-a you eh-doing?  'Ey, Chuck, you wanna buy kan-a-ge-roo?  'E's a verra, verra nice-a kan-a-ge-roo, see, he got-a nice-a bow, ehhh...?  He's a-just five-a dollers...!")

Twenty, thirty minutes of me talking to myself, while Lily kind of moved little guys around and tried to keep up with Daddy's wild, wild little world of Sleepy Wizards and lackadaisical, obsessive royalty.  

That tapped into a creative part of me that I had kind of...I dunno, tried to control as a Serious Adult Gamer.  I let go of the constraints of, you know, sense, and just started creating characters, places and situations without any worries about demographics and themes and mapping and pacing.  

The best part is, she still thinks "Noodle Country" is funny.  And she's right.

I have maintained for years that roleplaying is a natural skill, not a learned one. Kids roleplay all the time, spontaneously, without ever being taught. I can sit down with any normal 2-8 year old and in minutes we will be roleplaying - with action figures, dolls, hotwheels cars, plastic dinosaurs, wet dishrags, or nothing but our imaginations. Try the same with adults and it's almost always... awkward. What has happened is that most adults have forgotten how to roleplay, and forgotten they ever did it. It's like they got re-programmed at the Middle School level. That is why I contend we don't need "How to roleplay" junk. "Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed. It's the game part that's odd, not the roleplaying.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice"Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed.

So Frankie's only half-right.

Quote from: GabrielIt struck me that this is what the Forge is after, exactly this style of play.  However, instead of starting with two people who want the same goal and merely want to play a story, they seem to start with the concept of two people who can't agree, who have some desire for oneupsmanship and need an outside arbitrating force of rules and a GM to then force them through those rules and arbitration to tell an appropriate story.

Well, you two guided events consensually, organically creating events through your own actions. Though there's no GM or rules present, it seems pretty indicative of ideal traditional play. You work things out while retaining your freedoms as individuals and whatever happens, happens.

Quote from: flyingmiceI have maintained for years that roleplaying is a natural skill, not a learned one. Kids roleplay all the time, spontaneously, without ever being taught. I can sit down with any normal 2-8 year old and in minutes we will be roleplaying - with action figures, dolls, hotwheels cars, plastic dinosaurs, wet dishrags, or nothing but our imaginations. Try the same with adults and it's almost always... awkward. What has happened is that most adults have forgotten how to roleplay, and forgotten they ever did it. It's like they got re-programmed at the Middle School level. That is why I contend we don't need "How to roleplay" junk. "Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed. It's the game part that's odd, not the roleplaying.

-clash

Now this I is something I dig. It gets to the heart of how all the rules in the world can't support roleplaying unless you are willing to take the plunge on the personal level and just go for it.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!So Frankie's only half-right.

I literally spit coke and ice on my keyboard.

The IT guys will be sending you the bill for their time.

Quote from: flyingmiceI have maintained for years that roleplaying is a natural skill, not a learned one. Kids roleplay all the time, spontaneously, without ever being taught. I can sit down with any normal 2-8 year old and in minutes we will be roleplaying - with action figures, dolls, hotwheels cars, plastic dinosaurs, wet dishrags, or nothing but our imaginations. Try the same with adults and it's almost always... awkward. What has happened is that most adults have forgotten how to roleplay, and forgotten they ever did it. It's like they got re-programmed at the Middle School level. That is why I contend we don't need "How to roleplay" junk. "Relax and just do it" is all that's really needed. It's the game part that's odd, not the roleplaying.

-clash

QFT

Even with pnemonia, my daughter wants to play "safari" with her brother. I'm not sure what evolutionary raison d'etre exists, but it's like that with pretty much every kid I've ever encountered.

And it's great, as Doc experiences, those times when you can participate. To top it all off - everyone gets to have fun!

And just so you know, Doc - it tends to be in inverse proportion to their age.  I'm not sure when or why (perhaps the socialization of school and such - I'm no child psychologist), but they start to put more and more structure around it; more and more rules; wishes to play "a certain way," etc. It's very interesting to watch.

Quote from: James J SkachI literally spit coke and ice on my keyboard.

The IT guys will be sending you the bill for their time.

Coca-Cola has more money than I do, and you were the point of origin for the stream of soda.

I'm a force of nature, turkey -- you can't in that rap on me!

Plus, you shouldn't be putting ice in your soda.  Waters it down.  

Oh, and you're welcome.

Quote from: GabrielIt struck me that this is what the Forge is after, exactly this style of play.  However, instead of starting with two people who want the same goal and merely want to play a story, they seem to start with the concept of two people who can't agree, who have some desire for oneupsmanship and need an outside arbitrating force of rules and a GM to then force them through those rules and arbitration to tell an appropriate story.

It often seems that way. Though you'll also find people who acknowledge that the games are designed to channel play between people who already agree.

At least as important, what often causes conflict in game groups is mismatched paradigms of the purpose and methods of play. To an extent, games can suggest a common paradigm by structural means, but they can also do so on a primarily symbolic level.

In plain terms, I think the reason a lot of games "work well" is because the advertising, hype, and culture around them encourages the formation of gaming groups with homogeneous interests. Once you have that, mechanical structure doesn't really have to do a whole lot of work.

Quote from: James J SkachEven with pnemonia, my daughter wants to play "safari" with her brother. I'm not sure what evolutionary raison d'etre exists, but it's like that with pretty much every kid I've ever encountered.

We talked about this in a sociology class long ago - about kids' roleplaying in general, not rpgs.  A common view is that it's part of being an intelligent social animal.  In order to successfully interact with others, it helps to have a mental model of others - what they expect, desire, and know.  You have to be able to put yourself in their mind to some extent to know how to behave towards them.

Humans have more complicated social structures than other animals so need more complicated mental models.  When kids play like they're running a store, being a family, in a school, etc., they are building up ideas of what it is like to have those various roles.

Quote from: NicephorusWhen kids play like they're running a store, being a family, in a school, etc., they are building up ideas of what it is like to have those various roles.

So...my kid is exploring her options as a crack Stormtrooper hunter?

Swank.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!So...my kid is exploring her options as a crack Stormtrooper hunter?

Swank.

Mine has decided his calling in life is to be a Napoleonic frigate captain.

-clash

Quote from: GabrielAnother thing to think of: Is playing with action figures an RPG or not?  Why so?  My attitude is that it is not.  Playing with the figures is about play.  It isn't about competition, which is why RPGs need a GM to arbitrate matters (sometimes to provide outside competition to the players) and rules to facilitate things and provide a framework and boundary for the competition.

First, thanks for sharing Gabriel. =) You rock.

And I think you pose an interesting question to help explore the revelations of figurine play and how it might illuminate our understanding of what makes rpgs tick. Is playing with action figures an RPG? Or more specifically, was what you were doing with the action figures roleplaying? Unless we wanted to start splitting hairs on what an rpg actually is I think most people would agree that it wasn't a roleplaying game but it certainly was a roleplaying activity of sorts. You were certainly playing in the same way that you play with any toy. And in your play you chose to tell stories which involved playing many roles. It was not a game in the sense that it had objectives and required skill to achieve them, but it certainly had a lot in common with what we traditionally call RPGs and like many people have been saying in this thread I think there is a lot to be learned from remembering our roots here. When we get uppity about which rules are better or the way things are supposed to be we should remember that at the heart of it we want the roles not the rules when we play. The rules serve the roles or they're out. Because we can just grab a couple action figures and get by without any rules thank you very much.

=)