Quote from: One Horse Town;641765Group hug? :cheerleader:

This thread got incredibly sad and bizarre rather quickly didn't it?

Quote from: One Horse Town;641765Group hug? :cheerleader:

Dammit man you'll break the internet, don't you know it's fuelled by pure rage?

Quote from: The Traveller;641769Dammit man you'll break the internet, don't you know it's fuelled by pure rage?

Fuck you.

Spoiler

don't want to run out of gas before the next pointless flamewar

Quote from: Piestrio;641770Fuck you.

Spoiler

don't want to run out of gas before the next pointless flamewar

And you sir, verily get fucked. The recent outages of therpgsite had me worried for a bit, keep those wheels spinning!

Quote from: Phillip;641766

Really nothing but disagreement in this reply, which is fine. From what I can see, it depends completely upon the argument that "it's all taste and I refused any other standard to be applied".

So really, there's nothing to say in return except that I stand by my original post.

Actual red flags of bad game design:

"Have I personally used this material in a campaign? You think I'm the kind of geek who actually plays this crap?"

"Give a 'final' prototype to people with no previous familiarity with the project? No, surely any errata our regular playtesters and editors miss must be trivial!"

"Playtesters? What are those?"

"I'm my own developer and editor!"

Quote from: gleichman;641773Really nothing but disagreement in this reply, which is fine. From what I can see, it depends completely upon the argument that "it's all taste and I refused any other standard to be applied".

So really, there's nothing to say in return except that I stand by my original post.

Really nothing but disagreement in this reply, which depends completely upon the argument, "Gleichman's taste is The One True Way."

Quote from: Phillip;641780Actual red flags of bad game design:

They are signs of a bad game design process, not actually bad design. Most of the time the two are linked, but not always. In fact, good design process from what I can tell has little impact on final quality.

Quote from: Phillip;641780"Have I personally used this material in a campaign? You think I'm the kind of geek who actually plays this crap?"

It's worth noting that many designers don't play their own games. Something I noticed here in a recent thread of about what you were playing when.

Quote from: Phillip;641780"Give a 'final' prototype to people with no previous familiarity with the project? No, surely any errata our regular playtesters and editors miss must be trivial!"

Hmm, I believe that's call blind testing and is a good thing. You did say 'final prototype' and not 'final product' after all as the later wouldn't be a prototype at all but actual release. And actual release sort of has the goal of it going to people who aren't aware of everything (unless you're me that is).

Quote from: Phillip;641780"Playtesters? What are those?"

People say this, but do we actually know a case of when it happened?

Quote from: Phillip;641780"I'm my own developer and editor!"

I had three editors/proof readers. But they were no more professionals at it than I- those cost money and my design wasn't worth spending a penny on.

Quote from: Phillip;641784Really nothing but disagreement in this reply, which depends completely upon the argument, "Gleichman's taste is The One True Way."

The OP depended upon such things as genre simulation and actual play of of a meaningful game. If those ideas are 'One True Way', then so be it.

Quote from: gleichman;641787The OP depended upon such things as genre simulation and actual play of of a meaningful game.

Which became rather meanigless when you criticied some games for not having genre mechanics and others for having them.

Quote from: TristramEvans;641789Which became rather meanigless when you criticied some games for not having genre mechanics and others for having them.

Taking role-playing decisions away from players is counter to what RPGs are all about, in this one case genre simulation must give way to player desires- otherwise they are indeed playing a type of wargame.

Quote from: gleichman;641786In fact, good design process from what I can tell has little impact on final quality.

Then how is it "good"?

Quote from: gleichman;641791Taking role-playing decisions away from players is counter to what RPGs are all about, in this one case genre simulation must give way to player desires- otherwise they are indeed playing a type of wargame.

This doesn't work as a counter, until you address the question I posed earler regarding wounds and diseases, however. While I agree that roleplaying the character is the perogative of the player, if the player's control supercedes the reality and consequences of the gameworld, thats even more of a blow to immersion, and thus self--defeating.

If a player wanders around in a bog, they are likely to contract a disease, if they meddle in things not meant to know, they are likely to acquire an mental disease. These aren't, in real life, contrary concepts.

Quote from: TristramEvans;641792Then how is it "good"?

I think the point would be that 'good process' does not always correct for the inability to do good design in the first place.

Ideally it would prevent it from going far (i.e. to release), but as your reaction and others in this thread shows- people will excuse just about anything. Consider how much stronger that desire would be for the actual designer of a game.

Quote from: TristramEvans;641793This doesn't work as a counter, until you address the question I posed earler regarding wounds and diseases

I was going to ask you to remind me, but you did in the same post. Thanks

Quote from: TristramEvans;641793If a player wanders around in a bog, they are likely to contract a disease, if they meddle in things not meant to know, they are likely to acquire an mental disease. These aren't, in real life, contrary concepts.

The implied agreement in a RPG is that the player gets to role-playing his character as he wishes, and (unless it's a Story Game) he doesn't not get to determine the outcome of the world's physical reality.

Thus wounds and disease were something he never had control over nor would he expect it. While his mental state was something he would expect to have full ownship over.

Breaking *either* expection is a Story Game concept.

I consider Story Games to be bad RPGs. Now if one considered Story Games to be Good RPGs, I would expect them to hold the opposite opinion. And we will flatly never agree- nor is it very likely we'll play the same games. Hence we have nothing to talk about.