Hiya All!

I'm still plugging away at the rewrite of my game system, and have a direct question that pertains to authoring style.

I am a published author, and even somewhat of a 'hack' semi-professional writer, and have fallen into the habit in this rewrite to introduce each chapter with a small snippet of fictional story. This bit of story illustrates whatever points are goign to be discussed in the chapter. The prupose of this is three-fold.  And I would like eveyone's opinions as to the effectiveness of this.

***This is probably going to be so long-winded, but I want to give as much insight as I can.***

First and foremost, I feel that it is much easier to learn about something while being entertained.  Although one of the main goals of ANY game designer (I think) is to create entertaining text, having a bit of fiction set in the game easily allows one to engage their imagination in a way that focuses on the points being covered in the chapter.  So when the reader gets to the dryer rules and mechanics, they have an exemplary backdrop for a context.

Secondly, rather than pull arbitrary examples out of some mysterious hat, such as Pete The Pilot, or Bob the Blacksmith, the utilization of whatever rules and mechanics that are being discuseed is fresh in the reader's mind and they have vicariously experienced the subject at hand through characters that tey have become somewhat familiar with.

Third, it is a great way to communicate the tone and feel of my particular setting in an entertaining manner.  Such things as general mindset, personalities, history, backgrounds, etc can be relayed quite easily without having to state in a dour and stioc manner that my setting is like X and Y.  Of course, there is a large section covering the setting that wold do Tolkein proud, but the reader is familiar with the setting on an intuitive level by the time they get into the nuts and bolts of it.

The overall experience I've had with my test players, other test groups, and readers whom are not roleplayers (just reading it for me to see if they get it...most of these comprise my second test-play group, so I guess they enjoyed it as they desired to play the game) has been very positive.  It easily allows them to get into whatever the topic is, and the change from just rules & mechanics keeps their interest.


The story snippetts are very short, being perhaps two or so pages of prose on the average.  Within the text (centered around three characters) we focus on the subject matter of the chapter and learn by example.  The points of mechanics aer then discussed in detail, with the appropraite mechanics, in typical manual form thereafater, but the examples draw upon the story given at the beginning of the chapter.

Here's an example from the chapter that discusses "skills", their use and function, and how they work.  This chapter also goes into the "nature versus nurture" facets, and how they apply and are used.

****you may skip this story snippet if you wish, of course***

Cassius watched with amusement as Ragnor drilled Ableaus in swordplay.  Constantly amazed at just how unskilled Ragnor truly was, she decided with no more than a few glances that she was superior in her mastery of the long sword.  Ableaus looked a buffoon, attempting to grasp the sword properly, let alone striking effectively.  She continued cutting and filing on the key she was making.  Cast in sand, made from discarded trinkets, and then slowly shaped by hand, the key was taking form.  Now had she had her locksmithing tools with her, this would have gone much faster.  Putting the project again into the fire to make it more malleable, she turned her attention towards her comrades and observed them with a haughty amusement.

 Ragnor was already a growing legend.  He had the looks and physique for it, to be sure.  His physical prowess was perhaps his mightiest asset.  It was due to his great strength that he was such a successful swordsman.  Ableaus, on the other hand, was as inept as a child with the sword.  Although he could wield it with some effectiveness against the untrained, Cassius knew that she'd be able to dance through his meager attacks and defenses without so much as a second's thought.  She held Ragnor in a similar view, although he was greatly more skilled than her spell hurling friend,

Cassius knew how to make a sword sing and could weave a tapestry of steel around her foes.  Of course, Ragnor's blows that actually connected with his targets were another thing altogether.  Her blows were quick, precise, and deliberate, whereas a single blow from Ragnor's mighty blade could dismember the unwary with one fell strike...

Noting that the key was slightly glowing in the fire again, she removed it with her makeshift tongs and set again to refining the edges, using a rock for the anvil and the back of a hand axe for her hammer.  If the pictures she had seen on the ancient scrolls they had obtained were correct and not mere legends, then this key should unlock the gate they needed to pass through.  If that was the case, then they could enter into their target's lair stealthily instead of inviting all the armies of their foe unto them with a clamor of arms and chaos...

A ringing sound of metal drew her attention just in the nick of time.  She glanced up to see Ableaus' blade spiraling towards her, flipping end over end as it turned about each and every axis.  Almost without thinking her hand darted out and she grasped the blade firmly by the hilt.  Noting how she kept her face staunch and stone-like, she tossed the blade back to Ableaus; her toss making the sword fly like a spear until it almost reached him and then thrusting itself into the earth a mere hand's breadth away from his boots.

Ableaus smiled at her, relieved that he didn't harm her, and perhaps even more relieved that she didn't run him through for his clumsiness.  He bowed curtly and again picked up the blade.  Ragnor stood rigid, staring at her.  His body was in a defensive posture, but his face was awash with something between amazement and admiration.  He stared at her, not saying a word, but she could easily tell that he finally realized that she not only has the reflexes of a cat, but that she also knows enough about swords to toss one perfectly.  And anyone that knows anything about swords can tell you that tossing one like that takes skill.  She smiled her seductive smile that is usually reserved for men that she is planning on letting seduce her...or those that she plans to rob later, and reverted her attention back to the project at hand............

*****End of story snippet*****

The chapter then goes on to explain what skills are (called abilities in my game system), how they are used, and how physical and mental traits enhance them.  It also discusses the mechanics invovled in game play and draws the examples fomr the above text.

Your thoughts?

Quote from: GladenYour thoughts?

I skip fiction 99.9999999999% of the time. I don't get upset if it's included (some people do), but I almost never read it.

Seanchai

I skip the fiction too. If the fiction is great, but the rules text itself is boring, I'll be bored and have to read several times to learn the rules. My adviceis to make the whole book entertaining.

I wholeheartedly agree with both of your points.  In a game manual, I abhor fiction for its own sake, and likewise boring text of the manual generally leaves me not wanting to learn the game.

I also abhor examples plucked from the air.  

The fiction I am speaking of is not a contiual storyline, merely bits of prose that are the examples.  I see a vast difference, but I might just be pulling the wool over my own eyes.

And yes, I endeavour to make the entirety of the manual as entertaining as I can; that is, afterall (IMO), one of the reasons that the most successful RPG's are so successful.

I believe that snippets of story have their place in a manual, as long as it is there is a supportive function to help one learn the spirit and mechancis of the game.  Furthermore, I feel that extremely dry manuals, putting themselves forward as a "serious" matter belay the intention of having fun.  If I want dry and formulaic prose, I'll go read a textbook.

I skip fiction a lot of the time, but it depends on the quality, and how interested I am in the games "tone setting", for example, I've read all the Providence stuff, and Shadowrun's fiction in the 4E book--both give me ideas of how the world works, how it feels, and color--on the other hand, I don't think I've read any fiction from a White Wolf book.

SLA Industries - the fiction was key and vital to me giving it a second look.

Gladen, I think you should go for it, your way of using story snippets is sound. I welcome fiction that illuminates the rules and establishes the tone.

Keep at it !

I use fiction in the games I write as well.  I keep short (abot one page, very rarely 2 pages) and I also try to illuminate the setting and gaming concepts.  Of course, art can some of the same things but that's the topic of another thread.

To the extent that the prose is meant to lead into specific rules sections I like it to have a bit of crunch descretely inserted.  In your example maybe a reference to her skill level or some needs to be highly skilled to do X (e.g. skill levels Y+).

I like it when it is mostly prose with a few very short, crunchy parentheticals.  I do like longer prose expositions in separate setting, or character backgruound or adventure building sections areas where I feel it really can shine.

I very much like when the prose (used to illustrate rules) is of a connected whole, we are following the same example folks from the character creation, through skills, to combat, etc.

Yet in general I do not care stylistically for prose leading a rules section unless the game is really heavily setting dependent/focused.  But it won't turn me off from a good game.

QuoteIn your example maybe a reference to her skill level or some needs to be highly skilled to do X (e.g. skill levels Y+).

Actually, the references are there, in prose.  One of the ideas is to get the feel of the separation of the game from the mechanics.  To our characters, in any game, there is no such things as a level, hit dice, skills,powers, etc.
The story snippets describe, descriptively, what is going on.  The mechanics break it down into game terms.  Let's face it, if your character meets a person in a tavern, they do NOT say, " Good morrow, my friend.  I am Dave, a second level barbarian."  The game text goes on to describe, in the example I gave, how Ableaus is only barely skilled, perhaps X power in skill, whilst Ragnor is more than like Y level in power, etc.

The entire idea is to give a pointed and direct context, from the story form, for the reader to relate to.  If I told the story of Luke skywalker on the Milenium Falcon practiving with his light saber and how Obi-Wan was teaching him in patient and soothing tones, whilst explaining the ways of the force and then stated later that, by their actions, Luke is a Padawan, a young jedi in training, barely first level, and Obi-Wan is a much more experienced Jedi, at least tenth level, then those that know the story, or have just read it, shold go "aaah! I get it.  level is a description of matsery of the force and general skills in the way of the Jedi...just like I just read".

QuoteI like it when it is mostly prose with a few very short, crunchy parentheticals. I do like longer prose expositions in separate setting, or character backgruound or adventure building sections areas where I feel it really can shine.

First off, what do you mean by "crunchy"?  The term is bandied about with so much vernacular meaning that I oftimes cannot grasp what the general crunchiness is attempting to define.

The setting stuff actually highlights the same characters as they are purposely from different areas and different backgrounds.  But for the point of introducing the concepts and philosophies of each chatper, I find it to be better to not overburden the reader with so much prose for its own sake, but in a short and focused manner.  Now granted, there is so much fluff in there as well, but it is also for the purpose of rendering the setting in prose rather than in tables and charts, and other stuff that nobody really wants to be burdened with.

QuoteI very much like when the prose (used to illustrate rules) is of a connected whole, we are following the same example folks from the character creation, through skills, to combat, etc.

This is a point that I can somewhat agree with, but am not using.  I'm not wiriting about Dave setting up his character and whom he makes his character out to be:  I am writing about the example characters in the sense of the world of the game and their actions and thoughts give insight, examples, and extra focus to the game text.  Their histories (being created along with their background stories) are relayed in prose, not mechanics.  their mindset is likewise revealed.  All in all, one gets to know the character apart from the mechanics, and then see how the mechanics govern this or that facet.

QuoteYet in general I do not care stylistically for prose leading a rules section unless the game is really heavily setting dependent/focused. But it won't turn me off from a good game

This is exactly the kind of opposing comments, and the reasons behind them, that I was hoping to get.  As I stated, I think that prose, for its own sake, within a rules book is wasted unless it edifies the manual; which is what I'm attempting to do.  
Good game?  I hope it is!  My original group of test players is hitting year number three soon, with no drop outs and two add-ons.  My secondary fgroup is from non-gamers, that were reading the manual to give me crap about how it was put together and worded.  The third and fourth groups of test players are several hundred miles away from me and have instructions to break the game, rip it apart, and leave my ashes trodden into the earth.  They are all hooked thus far.

This doesn;t mean that I am not spending far too much time revising and reworking, just that the base ideas are solid, and the spirit of fun remains intact.  I just hope that my abilities are up to the challenge.

Here's what I mean by crunchy bits.  Bascially numbers to tie the qualitative story description into the game mechanics.  That is, what is "mighty" in mechanics when a say a mighty swordsman.  It's certainly relative and may even be exactly what you don't want.  The numbers I insert are purely arbitrary, or actually geared to my own approach.

Quote from: GladenCassius watched with amusement as Ragnor drilled Ableaus in swordplay.  Constantly amazed at just how unrefined Ragnor truly was (skill 6), she decided with no more than a few glances that she was superior in her mastery of the long sword (skill 10), .  Ableaus looked a buffoon (skill 2), , attempting to grasp the sword properly, let alone striking effectively.  She continued cutting and filing on the key she was making.  Cast in sand, made from discarded trinkets, and then slowly shaped by hand, the key was taking form.  Now had she had her locksmithing tools with her, this would have gone much faster (avoid -4 on smithing skill checks), .  Putting the project again into the fire to make it more malleable, she turned her attention towards her comrades and observed them with a haughty amusement.

 Ragnor was already a growing legend.  He had the looks and physique for it, to be sure (Appearance 21; Stength 25).  His physical prowess was perhaps his mightiest asset.  It was due to his great strength that he was such a successful swordsman.  Ableaus, on the other hand, was as inept as a child with the sword.  Although he could wield it with some effectiveness against the untrained, Cassius knew that she’d be able to dance through his meager attacks and defenses without so much as a second’s thought.  She held Ragnor in a similar view, although he was greatly more skilled than her spell hurling friend,

Cassius knew how to make a sword sing and could weave a tapestry of steel around her foes.  Of course, Ragnor’s blows that actually connected with his targets were another thing altogether.  Her blows were quick, precise, and deliberate, (Initiative 30) whereas a single blow from Ragnor’s mighty blade could dismember the unwary with one fell strike…(Ragnor: 3D6 damage; Cassius:1D8)
Noting that the key was slightly glowing in the fire again, she removed it with her makeshift tongs and set again to refining the edges, using a rock for the anvil and the back of a hand axe for her hammer.  If the pictures she had seen on the ancient scrolls they had obtained were correct and not mere legends, then this key should unlock the gate they needed to pass through.  If that was the case, then they could enter into their target’s lair stealthily instead of inviting all the armies of their foe unto them with a clamor of arms and chaos…

A ringing sound of metal drew her attention just in the nick of time.  She glanced up to see Ableaus’ blade spiraling towards her, flipping end over end as it turned about each and every axis.  Almost without thinking her hand darted out and she grasped the blade firmly by the hilt. (Reflex 24; reflex roll made on 3D10) Noting how she kept her face staunch and stone-like, she tossed the blade back to Ableaus; her toss making the sword fly like a spear until it almost reached him and then thrusting itself into the earth a mere hand’s breadth away from his boots.

Ableaus smiled at her, relieved that he didn’t harm her, and perhaps even more relieved that she didn’t run him through for his clumsiness.  He bowed curtly and again picked up the blade.  Ragnor stood rigid, staring at her.  His body was in a defensive posture, but his face was awash with something between amazement and admiration.  He stared at her, not saying a word, but she could easily tell that he finally realized that she not only has the reflexes of a cat, but that she also knows enough about swords to toss one perfectly.  And anyone that knows anything about swords can tell you that tossing one like that takes skill.  She smiled her seductive smile that is usually reserved for men that she is planning on letting seduce her…or those that she plans to rob later, and reverted her attention back to the project at hand…………

Something like the bold italics above is what I've seen and generally like.  It gives me an idea of how the qualitative view my characters would have is backstopped by the mechanics.

I prefer Xanther's example.

Unless you're selling me on your original and amazing setting or using the fiction to help me understand the mechanic (like the above post), fiction is by and large completely superfluous to our shared goals. (You explaining your game system to me, and me understanding it.)

Xanther:  thanks!  That's kind of cool, but to be honest it falls a bit outside of what I'm trying to accomplish....but has the same ends.  perhaps you're point is better.  I'll think it over, I really will.  Just for me, I tend to learn better by seeing (reading) the scene and then having the mechanics applied to something fresh in my memory.  The running narrative of the "crunchy bits" is awesome in its own way, but I'm not certain that it holds the other intention of setting the mood and spirit of the setting.

And Kaz: like I said earlier, I abhor fictional prose for its own sake, but also do not like the "telegram reading" form of explaining mechanics within a snippet of prose.  To me it reads like a delivery person spouting out a telegram:

Bob the Blacksmith has been hired to make a dagger (STOP:  A difficulty rating of 20, roleld on a D20 plus his expertise).  he has the tools on hand that will make his task easier (STOP: a bonus of +2 to his roll).

I like to abosrb the feel and flavor of the world of the game and then digest the mechanics.  But then again, I hate it when my food touches on my plate as well...

Again, perhaps you and Xanther are correct and tha tis the better method.  I'll have to mull this over in the sense of rewriting an almost complete final draft whilst my advance gets reduced due to the onslaught of rum, pizza, and chips that are "required materials for text development"

I'd also like to very respectfully and politely hurl the gauntlet at you two as well.  Why is ity better to add in the crunchy rules bits wihtin the text, rather than to put forth the prose and then explain it all in game terms?  And....are you sepaking from the goal of learning the game solely, or are you taking into account that the abstracts of the setting (i.e. the spirit, mindest, customs, way of life, etc) are also being related?

And you may also feel free to speak your minds without me taking offense.  I simply want to make the best game I ever possibly could.  For this I need to forego my ideals and listen to everyone, and weigh the options before I finalize.

My preference is for the fiction to set up a mechanical resolution.  The fiction provides a meaningful context for examples of the mechanic to be applied to after.  It flows sort of like a session.  That way it reads more as an illustration that I could reference possibly.

Quote from: GladenI abhor fictional prose for its own sake, but also do not like the "telegram reading" form of explaining mechanics within a snippet of prose.  To me it reads like a delivery person spouting out a telegram

One way to have your cake and eat it too, might be to include a sidebar with annotations. That way people who want to read your fiction for what it is, can do just that. Others that want to see your system in action can do that, as well.

*shrug*

Just a thought.

Quote from: KazOne way to have your cake and eat it too, might be to include a sidebar with annotations. That way people who want to read your fiction for what it is, can do just that. Others that want to see your system in action can do that, as well.

*shrug*

Just a thought.

I like that idea a lot.  It keeps the text free to set the mood yet the connection to mechanics for those who want it is there.  It could even be bullet popinted or footnoted, like a superscript 1 that you reference for the first crunchy bit.

I do like it very low on the crunchy bits if included in the text.  I'd say at least 95% prose with a few rule connections, not much more than I illustrated or even less.  The idea is not to make every connection but just a few relevant ones for the example.  Of course depending on length, you could always have pure prose up front.  Set forth the rules.  Then have the prose with all the mechanistic connections thrown in at the end.  In a way coming ful circle to your original prose and bringing the setting and mechanics together.

In a way that might work much better.  After all what does Reflex 24 mean if you haven't even introduced Reflexs yet.