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Post Apocalyptic Resources

Started by Ghost Whistler, July 06, 2010, 04:38:53 AM

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Ghost Whistler

I've been wrestling with the concept of Ammo for a fallout style game i'm writing. Ammo is a point based resource that abstracts and represents the scarctiy of resources (of all kinds) in the post apocalyptic playground I'm working on.

Currently I'm proposing that Ammo works by requiring that, outside of combat, every time a player makes a stat roll (your basic action resolution process) he must spend a point of Ammo. In combat, the player must spend 1 ammo to participate in a given round (makes it a bit easier).

Ammo can be recovered by finding resource caches, trading, or looting corpses you've killed in combat.

My question: is asking a player to spend a point each roll asking too much?

If the player can't spend, he can't act - he's out of resources. That's harsh, of course, and contrary to gaming freedom - but this is the wasteland. So there is another idea: Favours. The GM can give a player a point when he needs it. In return he owes the GM a favour which the player can cancel when the GM calls it in for 2 Ammo.

Have i got the balance right?
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

Phantom Black

I would never ever use such a point-based system in respect to resources in post apo games...

Why?

Because ammo counting is IMHO a part of the post apo playfeel.
I wouldn't buy/read/play a system that uses a point-based mechanic for this, tbh.



And we can't judge your sub-system because we don't fully know how it works overall, so it's in a way not really useful of you to ask us about what we think about this subsystem.

Hope this doesn't sound too harsh.
Rynu-Safe via /r/rpg/ :
Quote"I played Dungeon World once, and it was bad. I didn\'t understood what was happening and neither they seemed to care, but it looked like they were happy to say "you\'re doing good, go on!"

My character sheet was inexistant, and when I hastly made one the GM didn\'t care to have a look at it."

Ghost Whistler

#2
You mean not a part...
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

Silverlion

Wouldn't it be easier to track individual shots from a weapon? Since then you are only tracking it when used? Or are you trying for some sort of "effort is a resource.." sort of Indie like?
High Valor REVISED: A fantasy Dark Age RPG. Available NOW!
Hearts & Souls 2E Coming in 2019

Ghost Whistler

#4
Quote from: Silverlion;392074Wouldn't it be easier to track individual shots from a weapon? Since then you are only tracking it when used? Or are you trying for some sort of "effort is a resource.." sort of Indie like?

I thought that would be too much effort, especially in combat.

I think there is merit to the idea of representing scarcity of resources/fragility of equipment etc somehow. the only probvlem is finding a way to do this unobtrusively and without screwing the player (too much!).

The basic system has 10 stats covering everything (so every character can at least try anything). Actions require rolling (stat) d6 and comparing total to (difficulty level+opposing stat - where relevant). If no lower the action succeeds.
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

Ghost Whistler

I'm sensing that any kind of idea like this is really really bad.
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

Silverlion

I'd probably tie it to critical failures--if you have such a mechanic. Make it where a critical failure means "out of ammo" (in this meaning until you grab more rather than the need to reload) or gear breaks.
High Valor REVISED: A fantasy Dark Age RPG. Available NOW!
Hearts & Souls 2E Coming in 2019

kregmosier

Seems to me that you'd have to go one way or the other, full-bore.  (...and honestly I kinda like your idea...)

If you account for resources, account for EVERYTHING...need a match? well, you've already used 12, and I told you you found 14; hope the wind is calm... Also, if you're gonna do it, call the stat/ability "Resources" rather than ammo, and just have the players do "Resource Checks."  

Might even be possible to do hard accounting of all ammo, but use the Resources stat for food & misc.  (This all reminds me of the d20 modern Wealth Check...so it's nothing that hasn't been done before)  

I think your whole line of reasoning is certainly well within genre...
-k
middle-school renaissance

i wrote the Dead; you can get it for free here.

Ghost Whistler

Quote from: kregmosier;392326Seems to me that you'd have to go one way or the other, full-bore.  (...and honestly I kinda like your idea...)

If you account for resources, account for EVERYTHING...need a match? well, you've already used 12, and I told you you found 14; hope the wind is calm... Also, if you're gonna do it, call the stat/ability "Resources" rather than ammo, and just have the players do "Resource Checks."  

Might even be possible to do hard accounting of all ammo, but use the Resources stat for food & misc.  (This all reminds me of the d20 modern Wealth Check...so it's nothing that hasn't been done before)  

I think your whole line of reasoning is certainly well within genre...

Interestingly I think going full bore would be too much bean counting which is the aspect of the concept I'm trying to avoid.

Ammo isn't an entirely accurate title as its function is basically syunonymous with resources, but it's a more colourful term and I'mthinking of calling the currency of the world Ammo (it may literally be bullets). I suppose Fuel could work just as well.

I think if you tie it to a random mechanic you really do run the risk of pissing off players. Point expenditure at least allows the players control with the guise of a finite resource which is the point. The point is NOT to hinder the players but to create the illusion thereof. It's the wasteland, people don't have access to gun shops and unlimited ammo, fuel, energy cells, food, meds, etc.
"Ghost Whistler" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). Parental death, alien battles and annihilated worlds.

kregmosier

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;392337Interestingly I think going full bore would be too much bean counting which is the aspect of the concept I'm trying to avoid.

Ammo isn't an entirely accurate title as its function is basically syunonymous with resources, but it's a more colourful term and I'mthinking of calling the currency of the world Ammo (it may literally be bullets). I suppose Fuel could work just as well.

I think if you tie it to a random mechanic you really do run the risk of pissing off players. Point expenditure at least allows the players control with the guise of a finite resource which is the point. The point is NOT to hinder the players but to create the illusion thereof. It's the wasteland, people don't have access to gun shops and unlimited ammo, fuel, energy cells, food, meds, etc.


Yeah, I think you might be right.  I always use Mad Max as a frame of reference...ammo seemed moreso "dramatically" scarce, as opposed to scarce-scarce. (Like when he and the feral kid are fumbling for the shotgun shell while Wez is hanging on the truck in RW)  

Anywho, yeah, use it as you said like a point expenditure system and playtest.  Most of the kinks will come out when players fiddle with it. ;)
-k
middle-school renaissance

i wrote the Dead; you can get it for free here.

Xanther

Quote from: Silverlion;392307I'd probably tie it to critical failures--if you have such a mechanic. Make it where a critical failure means "out of ammo" (in this meaning until you grab more rather than the need to reload) or gear breaks.


I think this is more the way to go.  The trick would be to balance the frequency so you don't have neigh infinite ammo or running out every other shot.  To get a feel for reloading you may want to rate a weapon by Condition (which is an abstract that includes the amount of ammmo you have, etc.) a failure on this roll means you're out, it jams, etc.

You can give the players, Fate, Fortune, etc. points to undo bad things or do good things.

I'm surprised you have no problem bean counting Ammo as an abstract concept for each and every action you undertake, but do have a problem tracking Ammo, as well ammo, only when you use a gun.  The latter would involve less work than the former.

I also don't see it as all or nothing.  Track what's central to genre.
 

Silverlion

Quote from: Xanther;392360I'm surprised you have no problem bean counting Ammo as an abstract concept for each and every action you undertake, but do have a problem tracking Ammo, as well ammo, only when you use a gun.  The latter would involve less work than the former.

I also don't see it as all or nothing.  Track what's central to genre.


My issue is that my fists don't run out of ammo. Neither do my feet, or a club. They're also pretty unlikely to break if I know what I'm doing. Tracking ammo for everything means I have to track something ALL the time. While firing a gun means I only have to track it when I shoot at someone. (Which is not all that common in some of my games, even PA ones.) It's amount of time spend doing something. (I don't care to track ammo at all really, but at least tracking it for weapons makes a logical and verisimilitude based kind of sense.)

You might tie condition into critical failures. With items that are in poorer condition have broader chances of critical failures, and perhaps better gear a larger chance of critical success.

Let's say you were using a 1d20 style game. A Good condition gun might have critical failure 1-2, and critical success on a 19-20. A Poor condition gun might have that failure on 1-4 and no chance of Critical success. While a brand new, hand crafted from the ground up, work of art device or weapon might have a 1 critical failure and a critical success of 16-20.
High Valor REVISED: A fantasy Dark Age RPG. Available NOW!
Hearts & Souls 2E Coming in 2019

Xanther

Quote from: Silverlion;392398My issue is that my fists don't run out of ammo. Neither do my feet, or a club. They're also pretty unlikely to break if I know what I'm doing. Tracking ammo for everything means I have to track something ALL the time. While firing a gun means I only have to track it when I shoot at someone. (Which is not all that common in some of my games, even PA ones.) It's amount of time spend doing something. (I don't care to track ammo at all really, but at least tracking it for weapons makes a logical and verisimilitude based kind of sense.)

You might tie condition into critical failures. With items that are in poorer condition have broader chances of critical failures, and perhaps better gear a larger chance of critical success.

Let's say you were using a 1d20 style game. A Good condition gun might have critical failure 1-2, and critical success on a 19-20. A Poor condition gun might have that failure on 1-4 and no chance of Critical success. While a brand new, hand crafted from the ground up, work of art device or weapon might have a 1 critical failure and a critical success of 16-20.


Sorry Silverlion, my first part on critical failures was with respect to your comment.  My last two "paragraphs" were directed at the OP.  

I certainly like your failure tied to condition ideas, makes repair skills mean more and gives me that warm and fuzzy PA feel.  Currently running one pbp and playing in two pbp PA games, we count ammo and we avoid using the guns if a crossbow or sword will do the job.
 

Phantom Black

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;392069You mean not a part...

Pardon?
Scarcity and (environmental) hazards are THE important concepts of Post-Apo, aren't they?
Rynu-Safe via /r/rpg/ :
Quote"I played Dungeon World once, and it was bad. I didn\'t understood what was happening and neither they seemed to care, but it looked like they were happy to say "you\'re doing good, go on!"

My character sheet was inexistant, and when I hastly made one the GM didn\'t care to have a look at it."

Xanther

Quote from: Phantom Black;392456Pardon?
Scarcity and (environmental) hazards are THE important concepts of Post-Apo, aren't they?


Well that and mohawks.