TheRPGSite

Hi everyone,

I've decided to dust off an old Mafia game I had worked on a while back and wanted to get some feedback on the core system.  When I left off I had written in notes for both a standard rules-lite DC system and a dice pool system, but I'm undecided on which one to use.  Just wondering what the current trend of preferences is these days.  If I don't get sidetracked by real world issues I'll probably post more about the game and system for feedback.  

Thanks in advance,

Pete

I like both - witness I have alternative percentile and dice pool t-r systems for my games - but I don't like dice pool systems where there are a lot (more than 7-8) of dice. They're a pain to read, and take too much time.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI don't like dice pool systems where there are a lot (more than 7-8) of dice. They're a pain to read, and take too much time.

Yeah, I know what you mean.  To clarify, the pool I've got counts 5s and 6s as "successes" so it would just be a matter of separating them from the rest of the pack.  I think 10 dice max was the range I was fiddling with, but that's not concrete.

Dice pools is a really large category that covers a lot of ground. I personally like the esthetics of a fist full of dice. The probabilities curves of the dice pool are also nice if you choose the appropriate method for the feel you want.  EDIT: Hint, for a fixed TN based pool like yours a higher TN (usually with more dice to differentiate) has a higher standard deviation so you get a wider results range. A lower TN (say 2 or 3 on a d6) means lower standard deviation. So the bigger dice pool has more of an advantage over the smaller than with the higher TN. Less "randomness", less surprising/amazing results, so it lends itself to gritty vs. the more superhuman feel you tend to get from the higher TN.

You can also do dice pools very, very poorly. I certainly don't like adding up all the numbers on 10d6 when rolling, at least not on a semi-regular basis.

For larger pools, especially for old foggies like Clash and me, it helps to use more suitable dice. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58097803@N00/198488168) With those dice a SR4 dice pool (which can easily run into double digits) is as fast as interpreting a couple of dice. Rivaling even a single die in some ways. No sea of pips, no reading dice upsidedown.

It takes a bit of effort though. Once I had the plan for those it took me about 10 minutes per/die to etch and paint. Although I actually balanced them as well, meaning they are closer to representing the true probabilities inspite of normal manufacturing imperfections, which takes an extra 10 min or so per die. In all it problably took me, including planning, about 8 hours for a set of 18 dice. Not all in one sitting mind you. I built the set up over time. Sounds a bit crazy but I kind of enjoyed it. Definately enjoy the results.

I like dice pools as long as they are kept fairly simple. Nothing is worse than a complex, overly detailed dice pool system.

Quote from: McrowI like dice pools as long as they are kept fairly simple. Nothing is worse than a complex, overly detailed dice pool system.

I agree with that.  I'm taking a fairly simple: stat dice + skill dice +/- misc. dice approach with this pool system.  5s and 6s count as a success - you must get one success to succeed (or one more than your opponent with resisted rolls).  

I'm using d6s BTW.

Pete

BTW I consider things like "2d10, substract the lowest from highest" or "total of 2d6" to be a dice pool mechanic. Just a fixed size pool. The former, while it sounds a bit awkward, seems to play well for most people.

Quote from: blakkieBTW I consider things like "2d10, substract the lowest from highest" or "total of 2d6" to be a dice pool mechanic. Just a fixed size pool. The former, while it sounds a bit awkward, seems to play well for most people.

It *is* a fixed size pool, but it doesn't work like most pools, so I find it easier to categorize them as something different. I generally call systems where you subtract one die from another, like Qin or D4-D4, "Balance Dice," and small totaling pools, like GURPS or JAGS, as "Bell Curve Dice."

D6 pools are not good for me unless you use Blakkie's trick of distinguishing visually successes from non-successes. It gets to be a blur of pips otherwise.

-clash

Quote from: blakkieEDIT: Hint, for a fixed TN based pool like yours a higher TN (usually with more dice to differentiate) has a higher standard deviation so you get a wider results range. A lower TN (say 2 or 3 on a d6) means lower standard deviation. So the bigger dice pool has more of an advantage over the smaller than with the higher TN. Less "randomness", less surprising/amazing results, so it lends itself to gritty vs. the more superhuman feel you tend to get from the higher TN.

Hi Blakkie.  I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  Are you saying that higher numbers on a d6, 5s and 6s come up more often than 2s and 3s?  Or are you just saying it feels more heroic to be rolling for higher numbers?

Quote from: pspahnHi Blakkie.  I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  Are you saying that higher numbers on a d6, 5s and 6s come up more often than 2s and 3s?  Or are you just saying it feels more heroic to be rolling for higher numbers?

No, Pete. He means that using a lower TN like a 2+ = success increases the randomness - the standard deviation - than using a higher TN, like your 5+ = success.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceD6 pools are not good for me

d6 was my first thought because the ranges are more manageable and the dice are more accessible.  I had envisioned this as a pickup and play game with a bit of punch for longer runs, so I wanted to avoid non-d6 dice.  Here at work I've been mulling over the mechanics that stack on the core (Rep - street rep; Heat - how much the police hassle you; that sort of thing).  Clash, I'm tentatively using a Notice system a lot like what you outlined in A&A for building Rep.  I hope you don't mind.

Quote from: flyingmiceNo, Pete. He means that using a lower TN like a 2+ = success increases the randomness - the standard deviation - than using a higher TN, like your 5+ = success.

Ah, I get it now.  Thanks!

Quote from: flyingmiceNo, Pete. He means that using a lower TN like a 2+ = success increases the randomness - the standard deviation - than using a higher TN, like your 5+ = success.

-clash

Yeah, except the opposite. :)  Higher TN (target number, the number you have to roll on a die, or beat, to have a "success" with that die) means less adherence to the number of dice you start with.

EDIT: Although I might have got the 'standard deviation' wrong, not sure at the moment I'd have to check on that. I should have just left that term out. Doh!

The confusing part is that if you are in a system that varies the TN within different parts of the game then the characters with the lower TN are the 'superhumans' but only because they are more consistant.  For overall feel the higher TN means reasonable chance for succeeding at a mundane task also provides for a more likely for the same pool to suceed at an over-the-top task that is requiring more successes.

Quote from: pspahnd6 was my first thought because the ranges are more manageable and the dice are more accessible.  I had envisioned this as a pickup and play game with a bit of punch for longer runs, so I wanted to avoid non-d6 dice.  Here at work I've been mulling over the mechanics that stack on the core (Rep - street rep; Heat - how much the police hassle you; that sort of thing).  Clash, I'm tentatively using a Notice system a lot like what you outlined in A&A for building Rep.  I hope you don't mind.

Heck no! I'm flattered!:D

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceIt *is* a fixed size pool, but it doesn't work like most pools, so I find it easier to categorize them as something different. I generally call systems where you subtract one die from another, like Qin or D4-D4, "Balance Dice," and small totaling pools, like GURPS or JAGS, as "Bell Curve Dice."

That's a pretty good way to look at it, and good examples.

QuoteD6 pools are not good for me unless you use Blakkie's trick of distinguishing visually successes from non-successes. It gets to be a blur of pips otherwise.

When you use TN 4 on d6 (without a bunch of special rules) it becomes like a "Bell Curve Dice" of d2s. Yes or no, 1 or 0. You add up all the 1s.  But coins are physically even more a PITA to pick up than a bunch of d6.

P.S.  That's why I like Fudge too. Because you can just go buy the much easier to read dice. And they are a bit more explicit about the fact that you are just adding/subtracting 1s.

Love them, long as there's no more than about five dice, and they're not additive.

Quote from: blakkieThe confusing part is that if you are in a system that varies the TN within different parts of the game then the characters with the lower TN are the 'superhumans' but only because they are more consistant.  For overall feel the higher TN means reasonable chance for succeeding at a mundane task also provides for a more likely for the same pool to suceed at an over-the-top task that is requiring more successes.

Gotcha. BTW, that was one thing that used to bother me - a "success" doesn't mean a success in many t-r systems. Fine concept, bad choice of word. :D

-clash

For dice pools, I am a fan of high-low setups ala oWoD. I am thinking of something like this for Iridium Pool. Basically, skill rank + Stat mod + sit mod equals number of d6 in the pool. Roll pool and count up 6's, subtract 1's. I do not know if this would be too simple. I might need to allow some range like 3 is easy, 4 tough, 5 is challenged and 6 nigh impossible but I am not sure I like the distribution. Maybe start with 4 and go up. Anyway, yeah, some pools are great some are not so much. If I remember, SW d6 was a o.k. while SR seemed kind of not so much fun for me. Too many dice, too much adding that took too long.

Bill

I would say for simplicity's sake diffculty modifications should be adding and removing dice from the pool as opposed to changing the TN.
Modifying the TN does work but it adds an extra mental step that you don't really need and if you remove it you can as has been pointed out just paint up the faces with TN and up in red or whatever and then it's a really easy count.
Also explosive pools are great but I think you need to be using a d10 to make them rare enough to be 'special'
I am in 2 minds as to whether critical failure (ie 1's ) should detract from sucessess or not I think a situation where you only score a critical failure if you get no TNs and a 1 is better.

I generally dislike dice pools (additive to get a total, or counting success). But as someone alluded to above, dice pools with extra little trick rules like special dice, subtracting or adding successes, different meaning of dice combos, etc., are PARTICULARLY bad. I could stand to play nWoD, for example, but wouldn't touch oWoD with a 10' pole.

Hi Pete:

Take a look at StarPool (http://jalan.flyingmice.com/PlayingStarPool.pdf), my drop-in replacement for StarCluster's usual percentile system as used in Aces And Angels. This shows what I like in a dice pool system:

• Relatively small pools, so successes are easy to count
• Using a die with numbers rather than pips, and one usually available in fair quantity in a group - my biggest quarrel with Dread TFBoP was the d12 die pools! That means d20 and d10, usually
• One success is still a success
• Quality of success is part of the chance roll
• Uses a variable TN, but the TN is part of the character rather than an arbitrary GM rating
• Simple to explain - my group learned it perfectly in less than 5 minutes

I was under some contraints you wouldn't be, as I needed to make it compatable with a completely different system. Anyway, it might give you some ideas.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceBTW, that was one thing that used to bother me - a "success" doesn't mean a success in many t-r systems. Fine concept, bad choice of word. :D

Agreed, it is much less confusing when the terminology is something like "hit" or such. Unfortunately there isn't yet a more global term for that. *shrug*

I also like it when you have some success (or at least effect) with a single "hit", even if it isn't all of what you expected. So 1 "hit" is always better than 0 "hits". But that's more of a personal philosophy, always looking for the positive in the larger failure. :deflated:

Quote from: blakkieI also like it when you have some success (or at least effect) with a single "hit", even if it isn't all of what you expected. So 1 "hit" is always better than 0 "hits". But that's more of a personal philosophy, always looking for the positive in the larger failure. :deflated:

Same here. That's what I did with StarPool. More than one success just means a better "hit". :D

BTW, nice to see you again, Blakkie!

-clash

Neutral. I can only say that dice pools for the sake of dice pools suck as much as do no dice pools for the sake of no dice pools, and I can only add to this that every base mechanic can be fucked up. Dice pools are probably a bit more prone to this as there are more angles to change them, but if they are well crafted, there's nothing to say against them, and they can have some useful effects that aren't easily to achieve otherwise (like camouflaging probabilities to make mastery of the game harder, or by mathematically easy handling by just counting successes and dice rather then calculting anything).

Hi everyone,

I posted the basics for the system here:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=173903#post173903

It's more flavor than mechanics at this point, but I'm pretty confident I can make the numbers work if it's worth pursuing.  Let me know what you think if you get a chance and thanks,

Pete

Sorry for being an ignorant but what do mean by dice pools in this case? I've heard the team bandied about but I can't say I really understand. :)

Thanks for your patience.

Quote from: Rob LangSorry for being an ignorant but what do mean by dice pools in this case? I've heard the team bandied about but I can't say I really understand. :)

Thanks for your patience.

Dice Pools refer to various dice TR systems where you roll more than three or four dice at once. Single die games or d% games are considered linear TR, games with more than one and less than 5 dice are considered to be bell curve TR, like GURPS or JAGS. With dice pools you can add all the numbers, find relationships like pairs and triplets, look for numbers over or under a threshhold or Target Number, and other such tricks.  

-clash

As always, you're a oracle, clash! :)

Oh right. I quite like the sound of the mechanic. As long as it remains simple, I think it would be cool to use. ;)

I should be able to select options two and three. I hate them, but if a GM I like wants to run a game with a system that uses them, I'm not going to bitch about it.

Quote from: flyingmiceDice Pools refer to various dice TR systems where you roll more than three or four dice at once. Single die games or d% games are considered linear TR, games with more than one and less than 5 dice are considered to be bell curve TR, like GURPS or JAGS.

Not quite. The term "dice pool system" is typically used to describe systems in which changes in odds are managed in whole or in part by varying the number of dice. This can be by adding dice or counting the number of "successes" (individual dice exceeding a certain number.)

The upshot is that these are about the only systems that typically exceed 4 dice, as you suggest, but there are some that don't.