So I suppose most gamers try their hand at system design at one point or another. I am at that point again, my goal is to come up with a relatively simple system that will handle several setting projects I have been tinkering with.

My approach in the past has been rather ad hoc and I think it has been a detriment to my progress. So when you are working on a system is there a point you find it more logical to start at? I was thinking of coming up with a design document with a list of goals and ideas and working from there. I typically try to start with a core resolution mechanic, but I suppose that is not necessary depending on how many subsystems you are comfortable with having. Any particular pitfalls I should keep in mind? Any tips?

Remember that gamers are really bad at math. Anything other than simple adding is too much. Very simple adding at that.

I remember making a d100 system where you'd have to roll under the skill+ability score that was modified by a fraction according to difficulty.

2x for easy, 1x for average, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, etc for harder difficulties.

But apparently that's too difficult for most gamers.

If you want, you can simply take one of the many SRDs out there (such as D20, Mongoose-Traveller, Legend/D100, Fate and so on) and use it as a base to build your own system.

Anyhow, keep in mind the following:

1) The Human short-term memory can hold at once 5-9 "items". This means, that players can consider at once a choice of about 6 meaningful options with ease (as all option will be in their "RAM" at once), but having 10 or more options per choice slows things down. Choices between 5 or less meaningful options are the best, IMHO. This is why D&D's original 6 abilities, 3 alignments and 3 classes work so well.

2) We players are a lazy lot for the most part. Try to make calculations, especially in-session one, ones that can be easily done in a the head without too much effort. Avoid subdivision and even multiplication for the most part - try using addition or subtraction of small numbers for most calculations.

3) Try avoiding "fiddly" bits. Choices should be meaningful.

4) And most importantly - playtest A LOT. Things on paper look quite different from how they feel in play, in many cases.

Figure out what level of detail is important to you, or more importantly the people who would be playing this. That should keep you from diving too deep into any single subject.

If you have a core/unified mechanic get it largely straight before making off shoots, reviewing any offshoots when you modify that mechanic later to make sure it all works as intended still.

Beyond that, make your design document to determine the subjects you'll need to delve into. Then it's a matter of filling in your desired level of detail on your list of subjects. Personally, I've never been able to hold myself to my desired level of detail, always wind up mucking with things until I'm wondering why I've spent so long on something no one could possibly care about, including myself by the time I'm asking that question.

Quote from: JeremyR;787224Remember that gamers are really bad at math. Anything other than simple adding is too much. Very simple adding at that.

I remember making a d100 system where you'd have to roll under the skill+ability score that was modified by a fraction according to difficulty.

2x for easy, 1x for average, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, etc for harder difficulties.

But apparently that's too difficult for most gamers.

I wish you were joking, but there is a certain stereotype that says no.

Muh Thac0.....

As I have mentioned a few times I have done and still on occassion do do Ad libbed game design where the players vote on what eh system will be like then I scratch up an adventure Idea as they create characters.

So the logic to that is that you can create a very playable system in about 5 munutes

the rules are

i. What type of game do you want? Cinematic, gritty, historic, fantastic? etc
ii. Do you want it to be a simulator (I always end up coming down on this side of the coin however much I try to avoid it) or a game. Ths tells you how you need to balance the  realism witht eh fun and the speed of play. So combat can be as abstract as T&T 1e or as precises as Gurps with all the knobs. Decide where you want it to end up and try to stick to it. makign this more complex is easy
iii. Decide on a core mechanic you like. It doesn't matter what it is you have to like it as you will be using it a lot. dice pool, %d, d20, 3d6, 2d12 whatever just decide.
iv. get a setting that is engaging. Your system doesn't need to be setting specific but no one will want to play test it unless the setting is engaging and grokkable.
v. Determine the charcter generation process doesnt matter what it is so long as you enjoy it. If chargen is a chore (M&M 2e I am looking at you) then you havea barrier, if chargen is fun (traveller) or fast then you have an easier entry
vi. Fill int eh gaps usig your core mechanic where you can, magic, skills, etc etc
vii. start playing and experiment with ideas you like the good stuff will stick the dross will be burnt away

Answer this question: "Why do I want to create an RPG system?" This can be "idle curiosity" or whatever, but answering this honestly will tell you a lot about how you should approach it.

Then answer this question: "What do I want my system to do that others don't do well enough?" This question will tell you what you need to focus on in building your system.

-clash

Ok so lots of good advice in here, thanks everyone.

I am wanting to do a low fantasy game of mid complexity at most, the largest part of my desire to do this is to tailor a game to specific setting elements I have had in mind for a while.

One thing I would like to avoid is one of my pet peeves about d20, the die roll is to linear. I would prefer the results to come fairly consistently toward the middle. I was thinking of using 2d6, or 2d8, something along those lines so that the average die result tends more toward the middle instead of the flat 5% chance of any given number coming up on a d20 (it is 5% right?). Am I on the right track as far avoiding that?

Rule #1 is: Your first RPG will suck. Inevitably. (Mine did.) At best, it will be a heartbreaker with cool ideas buried under silly mistakes. At worst (and more likely), it will just be silly mistakes. (Mine was.) And it will teach you first-hand what errors and mistakes there are in writing RPGs, by inserting every conceivable fluke into your first game.
It is only from the 2nd game onwards and up that you have a chance to write a game that won't suck... With emphasis on chance.
So best start small, and not with the one game you always wanted to write and strongly care about. Timed design challenges like Iron Chef RPG make for a good proving and training ground by requiring only limited commitment.

Rule #2: You won't make money with RPG writing. Ever. Well, at least not real money, unless you hit the one-in-a-million score, or are in the right place at the right time hitting the right spot of the right people. (Like Savage Worlds did when people where excited of 3.x and its ideas and structure, but not so mucn of the bookkeeping. Or like Pathfinder did when 3.x was discontinued and 4e drove away players like it was going out of style. It boils down to as much marketing and dumb luck, as to actual design skill.)
The best you can realistically hope for is some beer money, and it will cost you oodles of sacrificed spare time.
If you want to make money, make adventures and other material for established games with a permissive license, not your own RPG.


After these illusions have been shattered, and if you are still willing to write a game, I recommend to come up with your goals first, before coming up with any specifics, and then prioritizing them with a strong hand. Lack of clear priorities (and accompanying areas that can and must be sacrificed to reach the main goal(s)) is what turns most games into muddly heartbreakers that are mediocre in everything, without having any qualities that make them remarkable.
Everything else, like basic mechanism, health mechanism, skill system (or lack thereof) and so on should follow those goals and nothing else.

Quote from: Skyrock;787330Rule #1 is: Your first RPG will suck. Inevitably. (Mine did.) At best, it will be a heartbreaker with cool ideas buried under silly mistakes. At worst (and more likely), it will just be silly mistakes. (Mine was.) And it will teach you first-hand what errors and mistakes there are in writing RPGs, by inserting every conceivable fluke into your first game.
It is only from the 2nd game onwards and up that you have a chance to write a game that won't suck... With emphasis on chance.
So best start small, and not with the one game you always wanted to write and strongly care about. Timed design challenges like Iron Chef RPG make for a good proving and training ground by requiring only limited commitment.

Rule #2: You won't make money with RPG writing. Ever. Well, at least not real money, unless you hit the one-in-a-million score, or are in the right place at the right time hitting the right spot of the right people. (Like Savage Worlds did when people where excited of 3.x and its ideas and structure, but not so mucn of the bookkeeping. Or like Pathfinder did when 3.x was discontinued and 4e drove away players like it was going out of style. It boils down to as much marketing and dumb luck, as to actual design skill.)
The best you can realistically hope for is some beer money, and it will cost you oodles of sacrificed spare time.
If you want to make money, make adventures and other material for established games with a permissive license, not your own RPG.


After these illusions have been shattered, and if you are still willing to write a game, I recommend to come up with your goals first, before coming up with any specifics, and then prioritizing them with a strong hand. Lack of clear priorities (and accompanying areas that can and must be sacrificed to reach the main goal(s)) is what turns most games into muddly heartbreakers that are mediocre in everything, without having any qualities that make them remarkable.
Everything else, like basic mechanism, health mechanism, skill system (or lack thereof) and so on should follow those goals and nothing else.

Oh I have no illusions of making any money on anything I produce. It would be simply for my enjoyment, though I would give it to any one who took an interest.

Quote from: Arkansan;787068So I suppose most gamers try their hand at system design at one point or another. I am at that point again, my goal is to come up with a relatively simple system that will handle several setting projects I have been tinkering with.

My approach in the past has been rather ad hoc and I think it has been a detriment to my progress. So when you are working on a system is there a point you find it more logical to start at? I was thinking of coming up with a design document with a list of goals and ideas and working from there. I typically try to start with a core resolution mechanic, but I suppose that is not necessary depending on how many subsystems you are comfortable with having. Any particular pitfalls I should keep in mind? Any tips?

Well, you already have rule one.  Build the system to match the setting and gamestyle.

Also, what duration game?  How important is magic, and how many different types do you want the system to represent?  What level of detail?  What lethality level?  What areas are the rules going to include competency increase for?  What level of randomization vs niche equality are you thinking?

I only play homebrewed systems, so I have a few, though one main mechanic.  But that main system represents 95% of the games I've run since 83.  So...familiar I am to the homebrew bug, and I believe the system must be tailored to the above answers.

Quote from: Arkansan;787324Ok so lots of good advice in here, thanks everyone.

I am wanting to do a low fantasy game of mid complexity at most, the largest part of my desire to do this is to tailor a game to specific setting elements I have had in mind for a while.

That is an excellent reason to write your own system.

A piece of advice - read lots of other games and borrow liberally! There are tons.

-clash

1) Don't think about specific mechanics at first. Think about what type of feel you want the game to have. This feel should inform the design of the mechanics and not the other way around.

2) Envision what is most important about playing a character in this game. You might be tempted to start with the all too familiar basic stats. Before deciding on a schema for characters, remember to overall feel of the game and try to come up with a character structure that best supports that.

3) Based on the feel you want for your game, would it be better served by an abstract type, or more detailed/simulationist style of mechanics. This is what I call the great D&D/ Runequest(GURPS) divide. An abstract game stresses fast easy play, often featuring strong archetypes, at the expense of detailed process and realism. A simulationist game can be more granular, offering more options, more detailed action resolution and so forth.

This is also the time to give thought about the overall weight of the system. How detailed do you want the rules to be? Designing a rules light simulationist system is quite the challenge.

4) Once you have a decent idea of the feel for the game, and the type and rough weight of the rules, there is enough to start sketching out mechanics to create the game you have envisioned. Novel mechanics are fun to tinker with but including them should add to the feel you want for the game. If a new mechanic brings nothing but novelty to the table, it might be best to see if a more tried & true simple mechanic can get the job done. There should be a good reason for folks playing your game to learn unfamiliar types of mechanics.

5) Always keep players in mind when working on mechanics. When your mind is racing with ideas and resolution mechanics are flying from your brain to the page, remember how they affect the game's participants. A complex procedure for doing X might simulate exactly what you believe is the best way to handle a given task in the game but make sure it is also fun to play out at the table. Even a simulationist game should keep the table procedures smooth and fun, even if they aren't all that simple.

6) Find victims and playtest at the earliest draft stage possible. Even if all you have is a skeletal framework of character design and rudimentary combat rules, playtest what you have before building more around that. A house of cards needs a solid foundation. Designing too much before playtest is the best path to maximize wasted effort.

7) Have fun with the project. If it stops being enjoyable then scrap the project and start one that you will enjoy.