I saw this earlier:

One guy was talking about how he wanted to use some alternate XP system for D&D, that players would get XP for 'setting and accomplishing goals'.

So Ok, so  far, so good.

Then, some of the players balked at this, saying they didn't want their characters to set any goals at any point.

Ok, sounds good so far. I'm following along.

Then some fart smeller, er.. smart feller peeped up with "Thats because those kind of players are just along for the ride..  or they really want the GM to set goals for them!"

(here's that needle scratching off the record sound)

To which I say "How do you get that?"

I submit this:
A player who is not interested in setting goals for his character is not interested in anyone else doing it either. Neither is he "just along for the ride'. A lot of times players want to just ease into a new game or explore the possibilities of play without interference.

Why is this such a hard concept?

It's a hard concept because it pisses off GMs when their players have no goals. "Well shit, what am I supposed to run?"

Agreed, Abyssal Maw.  In fact, I've had open conflict about Exalted 2e's requirement for each PC to have an epic goal at character creation.

It's hard enough trying to herd nuclear powered cats when they're not all driven in different directions.  And my players had immense trouble coming up with suitably epic goals in the first place.

Motivations are sometimes really helpful when you're GMing, but they're just another tool.  They're not necessary and people who like using them shouldn't shit all over people who don't.

Quote from: beejazzIt's a hard concept because it pisses off GMs when their players have no goals. "Well shit, what am I supposed to run?"

Well, it doesn't piss me off, and I'm a GM. I liken it to this: I like  car games. I like to race the cars.. and then sometimes I'll spend an hour or so crashing the cars into walls and other cars to see how that works. Then maybe I spend some time in the customizer making new cars and giving them cool paintjobs. Then I try out the campaign game. Sometimes I just get in the car and surf around for a while.

Sometimes the goal is just "to play"

I think it's great when one play *does* have a goal, because i can really play to that. But I'm not offended when they don't. Especially when I consider that in a long running campaign- the guy might suddenly decide he's got a goal at level 5 or 7 or something down the road.

I tend to find goals that develop in-play are much more rewarding on average than ones brought to the table.  YMM, of course, V.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI submit this:
A player who is not interested in setting goals for his character is not interested in anyone else doing it either. Neither is he "just along for the ride'. A lot of times players want to just ease into a new game or explore the possibilities of play without interference.

Why is this such a hard concept?

It's a hard concept to get people to agree to because it's at least partially wrong. You've stated it as an absolute but it's not always true. Some players fit it, but other players do want goals set for them by the GM (or even other players). Others really are just along for the ride.

Change the second "is not" to "may not be" and you're in the right territory with A player who is not interested in setting goals for his character may not be interested in anyone else doing it either.

James: I concede. Your'e definitely right about that.

Huh? What?

What happened to my internet!?!?!?!?!?

Right, I don't think goals are needed off the bat, but I can't imagine GMing without at least having some sense of what the players want to do, or at bare minimum, will agree to do.

I get very frustrated as a player all too often due to stuff like this.  I LIKE to set a goal for my character. But I LIKE to do it after I've spent a few games puttering around and seeing what the world is like, what the character is like and what the GM is like.

Organically if you will.  

Of course, a lot of games I've been in I come in, ready to start working on a long term goal only to find the rest of the players had grown bored with the game and created new characters, reseting the game to zero. Or the GM has decided that I am a 'utility player' and relegated me to the background and doesn't want to hear about my grand ideas.


But to come up with an Epic Goal at the start of character creation? Can't do it.

Quote from: SpikeI get very frustrated as a player all too often due to stuff like this.  I LIKE to set a goal for my character. But I LIKE to do it after I've spent a few games puttering around and seeing what the world is like, what the character is like and what the GM is like.

Organically if you will.  

Of course, a lot of games I've been in I come in, ready to start working on a long term goal only to find the rest of the players had grown bored with the game and created new characters, reseting the game to zero. Or the GM has decided that I am a 'utility player' and relegated me to the background and doesn't want to hear about my grand ideas.


But to come up with an Epic Goal at the start of character creation? Can't do it.

This is the problem that I have, if the characters aren't driven and interesting the game will fizzle out.  I'm not totally sold on Exalted's epic motivations, and will allow the player to choose a more mundane one to start with, which we can expand on later.  For example, maybe they'll start with 'kick the dragon-blooded out of my city'.  Then we'll worry about 'destroy the Realm' or 'restore the Solar Deliberative' later.

It's hard as a GM to write a game for characters without goals, especially if you're at least somewhat character driven.  To me, if the character has no goals why are they a PC?  What is interesting about them?  Why are they going off to instead of staying home and watching TV like everyone else?  If you find the character so boring you can't think of anything you want them to do, I can't imagine you're going to have much fun in the game.

Quote from: MaddmanThis is the problem that I have, if the characters aren't driven and interesting the game will fizzle out.  I'm not totally sold on Exalted's epic motivations, and will allow the player to choose a more mundane one to start with, which we can expand on later.  For example, maybe they'll start with 'kick the dragon-blooded out of my city'.  Then we'll worry about 'destroy the Realm' or 'restore the Solar Deliberative' later.

It's hard as a GM to write a game for characters without goals, especially if you're at least somewhat character driven.  To me, if the character has no goals why are they a PC?  What is interesting about them?  Why are they going off to instead of staying home and watching TV like everyone else?  If you find the character so boring you can't think of anything you want them to do, I can't imagine you're going to have much fun in the game.

I think part of it might simply be people shying away because they feel they have to come up with acceptable goals.

"Walk the earth" is a perfectly valid goal, as is "beat up lots of guys and get stronger."

Some people also don't know where their character is going yet, or just don't care much about them other than as a vessel for escapism.  Many players are reactive rather than proactive as well, and GMs have to come to grips with that.

Quote from: RedFoxI think part of it might simply be people shying away because they feel they have to come up with acceptable goals.

"Walk the earth" is a perfectly valid goal, as is "beat up lots of guys and get stronger."

Some people also don't know where their character is going yet, or just don't care much about them other than as a vessel for escapism.  Many players are reactive rather than proactive as well, and GMs have to come to grips with that.

True, and my general way of dealing with that is to put them in a situation where we see what kind of person they are.  Are they the kind of person that will risk their life to save an innocent?  It's happening right across the street.  Will they fight to protect their honor?  A thug has just insulted them.  By giving the player these kinds of situations you can suss out where they want to go with them.  It's a lot easier and a lot more fun if they have some idea.

Acceptable goals to me means what do you want beyond the premise.  (Not the Ron Edwards meaning of Premise, but the normal one)  If we're playing Buffy, then all the PCs want to protect the people of the town from vampires and demons.  If we're playing D&D, they want to kill monsters and get their treasure.  Saying you want to do that isn't helpful - what makes *your* character special?  Even if they do, flavor it up a little.  Maybe your Buffy character wants to fight against vampires because one of them is stalking her.  Or your D&D character wants to go treasure hunting so he can find the lost McGuffin of Plot Device, a family heirloom.

Truthfully, I find the first session of a new game the hardest to prep for and the hardest to run, because generally the players haven't given me very much about their characters, and what they have given me they may not stick to.

Quote from: SpikeI get very frustrated as a player all too often due to stuff like this.  I LIKE to set a goal for my character. But I LIKE to do it after I've spent a few games puttering around and seeing what the world is like, what the character is like and what the GM is like.

Right, this is where I'm headed with knowing what the players want to do. So you want to putter around. What kind of puttering are you looking for? Doesn't have to be the same thing every campaign, of course, but it will give some sense of the type of prep needed both in terms of setting elements and (if necessary) events to throw at the player.

Quote from: Elliot WilenRight, this is where I'm headed with knowing what the players want to do. So you want to putter around. What kind of puttering are you looking for? Doesn't have to be the same thing every campaign, of course, but it will give some sense of the type of prep needed both in terms of setting elements and (if necessary) events to throw at the player.

That's just it, there isn't a single answer.  In one game that notoriously ended when I showed up for the next session to see everyone making new characters.. the first few game sessions my 'guy' was some big, ugly over the top (Hawiian shirts, white boy dreads that had been tie-dyed) ex-commando who had been picked up as part of this mercenary team.  He was a loud obnoxious and over the top guy. By three games in, I had worked out a bit more of his past, got him side intrests (trade, black market arms dealing and the like), a potential love intrest he was woo-ing... which meant ditching the hawiian shirts, at least some of the time, for suits and ties.  In other words, he was evolving as a character. Just in time for the game (which only lasted four sessions as I recall...) to end unexpectedly.

More recently, I joined a long running D&D game that meets infrequently. My character is, coincidentally, a mercenary. The GM needed him to be from a local village, so he's the prodigal son returned to find his home in peril. Not much to go on, and as we've only played twice I still don't know where he's going. That comes out in play.   Right now, the closest thing I have to a goal is that he collects things that might have magical resonances (like thousand year old manacle chains still holding their last occupants and the shards of shattered weapons and armor) with some crude idea of getting a Mage to forge them into a weapon of significant power. Maybe. It's just an idea floating in my head, and as goals go, it sucks. Right now, that game is being driven by the other players, and for now I'm content to just hang out in the background and do my thing.

I've done lots of characters, from the Drow that wanted to become closer to his Goddess (Eliestree or whatever.. the dancing huntress goddess of the moon...), to the former Sergeant Major who wanted to rebuild a shattered Poland from the base we'd set up in an abandoned warehouse on the riverfront, to... well, i wouldn't want to bore you with them all. The thing is, none of those goals were written down before I played the character for a few games.