I'm compelled to write something like this. Not just 40k (though I have 0 interest in buying into the ridiculous tabletop), but this 'kind' of 'hard' science fantasy in general. But something more heroic and less nihilistic. But something where there are tangible forces of evil, grand SF scale/vistas, almost gothic medieval architecture of all kinds (and not just buildings), etc. I'm drawn, consistently, to this genre, like a moth to a very hot and very dangerous flame.

I love the idea of a medieval technological mindset, but, ever since I read Fading Suns (which I didn't consdier an enjoyable read unfortunately) I've had a hard time reconciling those two ideas. Technology implies the modern world with all its sensibilities, including a general freeing up of all things. The internet is quintessential; it gives people access to all sorts of information. The medieval mindset makes technology superstitious, inaccessible, arcane and something to be feared. In Fading Suns I could never reconcile the explicit proscription of technology alongside its use. 40K isn't quite the same whereas Dune is more about freeing humans from the grip of technology (so you have humans who are better than computers). But in Dune technology is not regarded in quite such a dark ages fashion.

I have alwasys struggled, in trying to come up with ideas for such a setting, to create medieval technology (and without ripping off the influences too much, though that's not going to be 100% possible). Here then is what I have thus far. There is obligatory use of silly words - a Savantist is basically a scientist type.

Since the decline of the High Technological Era (HTE), the great computer nodes of the galaxy wide information database have fragmented. Each core occupied or was located on a single world, some of which have been either destroyed isolated or otherwise lost. Consequently the sum of knowledge that the remaining database contains is a shadow of that which existed during the HTE.
It has been centuries since that time and the database has become an arcane source of lore controlled by the Savantists of the Machine Guild that controls technology and science. They refer to the database as the Wyrd: a timeless source of learning containing all that is was and will ever be known. They are aware that nodes, which they call Wyrdstones, exist outside of the current network, and these are a focus for some of their efforts.
Savantists connect via their cybernetic implantation remotely to the Wyrd using equally arcane ritual. These processes keep the knowledge they guard to themselves so as to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands (as was the case during the HTE). This also helps them maintain their powerbase, but all believe that technology should not be so common or so easily accesible. The fall of mankind during the HTE was enabled by such a mass consumption (and thus lack of respect for) technology.
When accessing the Wyrd, a Savantist always connects to the nearest machine. Beyond the reach of the furthest Stone (unknown space) and the Savantist will feel uncomfortable: he knows he is open to foreign signals, possibly those from distant Wyrdstones. He must prepare himself and fall prey to corruption. Some are tasked with seeking out these signals as Guild Missionaries.
Each Wyrdstone contains the sum of all but each is overseen within by the spirits of that library. These are the machine intelligences that were created and perfected by man during the HTE. They are viewed with suspicion in the modern world, even though the Wyrdstone could not function without this internal machinery. These Wyrd Spirits must bow to the Four Logos (the gods of the Guild representing, amongst other things, the 4 basic forces) which is also to say they must acede to mortal control. It is a central tenet of human belief that a machine must bow before a man and that no machine should replace or outthink a human. Wyrd Spirits are capricious and do not give their loyalty easily, but all crave to be part of the whole they once were. When new Wyrdstones are found, the Guild must process the Spirit within to bind it to the whole. If that cannot be done, the Spirit is deemed corrupt and must be destroyed. Though the Savantists always lament the loss of potential knowledge, nothing must transgress the Machine Laws.
Savantists serve as guardians of knowledge and systems of communication. They are also able to channel the power of the Four Logos (as are most Guildsman) through their cybernetics. They can also be possessed by Wyrd Spirits in the same way. This can be either positive or negative - the latter especially in the case of unknown (which is to say uncontrolled) entities from foreign sources. In either case channelling these greater powers of technology make the individual Guildsman a pwoerful force.

Can this work?

Need better terms for things like HTE, the Era of the Science Gods!

Or something.


I'm doing my own stuff as you know wuxia space opera, and horror space opera, both which have suggestions from 40K but aren't really them. Mostly because I've never cared for Nazi's in space ideal. Yet I lvoe the visuals.

One things to consider is what makes the feel, beyond the visual? What construction of language do they use to convey the world, how can you create your won language to suggest a gothic age of science/space opera?



You ever see the game Too Human? Horrible game play, but brilliant visuals and concept--its Norse Saga in a far future with Cybernetic Gods (Baldur, Thor, etc..)

At one point Loki is being tortured having the venom of the snake dripping into his eyes. It's all holograms and e-feeds, but its a brilliant spin onf 40K esque concepts.

I'd see if you can get clips of the games cinematics from youtube or something.

Oi, I hate this setting and everything it stands for because I am far too cool for it.

But.. um... I kinda dig it so now I must fix it in line with my own elite understanding of reality and all that is in it.




Dude: you live in a very real world where people pay 50 bucks to someone (who, by the way they feel they are MUCH smarter than) to change the oil in their car because 'everything under the hood is too confusing'.

Technology as arcane mystery is hardly unbelievable.  I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm reasonably certain that if I handed you they keys to a complete machinists workshop and unlimited materials you could not produce a working assault rifle. Or a car.  A fucking bicycle might be beyond your capabilities and those have been around for 150 years.

If my computer goes down I may not be able to tell you if its hardware or software. I basically have three options: roll the dice and pray I can undo whatever went wrong myself (not likely but stranger things have happened), convince someone who works on computers to do it (by leaning on friendship or paying real moneys) or buy a new fucking computer.

Fading Suns at least doesn't try to postulate that NO ONE knows how shit works... just that the specialized knowledge is not freely available (and even then... Freelancers. Or Priests who like to tinker. Or Nobles... ditto.  No one is, by the rules, barred from learning tech.

Likewise, no one insists that some nomad in Outer Mongolia doesn't set up a factory to produce the latest CPUs for computers... yet strangely no one does.   Technical and social obstacles are more real than you give credit for, objectively knowing HOW things are done isn't enough.

Quote from: Silverlion;378014Need better terms for things like HTE, the Era of the Science Gods!

Or something.


I'm doing my own stuff as you know wuxia space opera, and horror space opera, both which have suggestions from 40K but aren't really them. Mostly because I've never cared for Nazi's in space ideal. Yet I lvoe the visuals.

One things to consider is what makes the feel, beyond the visual? What construction of language do they use to convey the world, how can you create your won language to suggest a gothic age of science/space opera?



You ever see the game Too Human? Horrible game play, but brilliant visuals and concept--its Norse Saga in a far future with Cybernetic Gods (Baldur, Thor, etc..)

At one point Loki is being tortured having the venom of the snake dripping into his eyes. It's all holograms and e-feeds, but its a brilliant spin onf 40K esque concepts.

I'd see if you can get clips of the games cinematics from youtube or something.

Yes Too Human was a heartbreaker (crap gameplay, interesting setting). I have had ideas for an SF Norse game based on my extremely limited knowledge of Norse myth. But I'm not sure I like games that are directly based on myth. Hellas is the same. It's blatant (and deliberately) Greek myth in space and that feels too restrictive for me. I would rather take my inspiration from it.

With respect to feel, I woudl envisage characters of this kind:

Investigating the depths of space to trace the signal of a newly discovered Wyrdstone.
Excorsising the 'demon' of a rogue Wyrd Spirit (an AI possessing the machinery of an ancient world).

There is a slightly celtic vibe to it.

Quote from: Spike;378029Oi, I hate this setting and everything it stands for because I am far too cool for it.

But.. um... I kinda dig it so now I must fix it in line with my own elite understanding of reality and all that is in it.




Dude: you live in a very real world where people pay 50 bucks to someone (who, by the way they feel they are MUCH smarter than) to change the oil in their car because 'everything under the hood is too confusing'.

Technology as arcane mystery is hardly unbelievable.  I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm reasonably certain that if I handed you they keys to a complete machinists workshop and unlimited materials you could not produce a working assault rifle. Or a car.  A fucking bicycle might be beyond your capabilities and those have been around for 150 years.

If my computer goes down I may not be able to tell you if its hardware or software. I basically have three options: roll the dice and pray I can undo whatever went wrong myself (not likely but stranger things have happened), convince someone who works on computers to do it (by leaning on friendship or paying real moneys) or buy a new fucking computer.

Fading Suns at least doesn't try to postulate that NO ONE knows how shit works... just that the specialized knowledge is not freely available (and even then... Freelancers. Or Priests who like to tinker. Or Nobles... ditto.  No one is, by the rules, barred from learning tech.

Likewise, no one insists that some nomad in Outer Mongolia doesn't set up a factory to produce the latest CPUs for computers... yet strangely no one does.   Technical and social obstacles are more real than you give credit for, objectively knowing HOW things are done isn't enough.

True but i'm thinking more about information, as opposed to actual how stuff works, with that example above. These days while peopel might not be able to diagnose why their computer brokened, they might have a much easier time surfing the internet to find out stuff. That's easy.

The problem I had with FS specificually was that on one hand you have a belief system pervading the Empire that technology was generally not to be trusted at all, but at the same time, as an interstellar community, it was very essential. This is beyond the kind of attitude you still might hear today from (usually the old) people who dont trust computers. People today can still get by without needing to use a pc, but the FS society really won't work if everyon stayed away from spaceships etc.

That contradiction was how FS came across to me when I read it. As I said, it was a chore to read. It has some cool ideas, but I could never reconcile this and that has always plagued ideas such as the above.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;378084Yes Too Human was a heartbreaker (crap gameplay, interesting setting). I have had ideas for an SF Norse game based on my extremely limited knowledge of Norse myth. But I'm not sure I like games that are directly based on myth. Hellas is the same. It's blatant (and deliberately) Greek myth in space and that feels too restrictive for me. I would rather take my inspiration from it.

With respect to feel, I woudl envisage characters of this kind:

Investigating the depths of space to trace the signal of a newly discovered Wyrdstone.
Excorsising the 'demon' of a rogue Wyrd Spirit (an AI possessing the machinery of an ancient world).

There is a slightly celtic vibe to it.

Hellas isn't quite as ripped off as that, but yeah I can see where you are coming from. I'd strongly suggest that feel "exorcising" and wyrdstone, and essentially making technology "magic" to most people. Weird and other wordly. You may goto a doctor-priest who intones the words to  call favor from the healing spirits (Activate the medical equipment.) Yet most people don't understand how it works. Maybe a few in on the divine mysteries/magical tradition know how to repair it--but even then it is done with awe and reverence. Robots are demons and so on..

I wouldn't say Hellas rips off anything - it's based on Greek mythology directly. That itself is no problem, but it's not what interests me. Actual Greek myth in space doesn't interest me as much as influenced by greek myth.

Anyway, to complete the shameless rip on 40k et. all. here are the rest of the ideas:


Wyrdspeaker:
The ancient galactic information network is known as the Wyrd. This network is stored in vast nodes called Wyrdstones found on planets throughout the Realm. However the current network is a fragment of what once existed and so there is a constant search for lost Wyrdstones.
So great is the information stored within that Wyrd Spirits exist, capricious and ancient entities managing the information (or simply created by the sheer weight thereof). These must be palcated in order to enter the Wyrd. Many such spirits seek to free themselves of the machine's confines and msut be dealt with. Those who deal wtih the Wyrd and its denizens are Wyrdspeakers; they are equipped with cybernetic implants that allow them to access the Wyrd and receive its signals across the void. This also allows them to locate lost Wyrdstones or other, alien, sources of information. This information is translated through the arcane rituals of the Infocarna.

Seer:
An individual born with the Sight, a potential for psychic power, is valuable to the Realm. Their power is unpredictable and can only be tamed on one planet: the remote hinterland known as Epiphane. Without Epiphane's influence, the potential would likley find their talent corrupting and destructive. The Seers Guild constantly tracks the Realm for those with potential and brings them to Epiphane where they are trained, changing their life forever.
Many Seers become trained in the use of Nexus Staves and learn to call into the hyerspatial void of the Astral Dark training a lifelong Familiar that serves to guide them psychically as Navigators for the Realm's shipping. Other Seers can serve in the Realm's Legion.

Legionnaire:
As old and as austere as the Realm itself, the Legion is its army. Those who serve are accorded greater honour than regular citizens (though nto as much as the fallen receive). Legionnaires are zealous and tenacious; the ideals of the Realm are drilled into them as much as the art of warfare and they are deployed throughout space to combat threats to the Realm, often against the barbarian Warling horde and it's Heathen God master.
The Hall of Battle is the vast planetary haven for the Legion and within its walls every single conflict the Legion is currently engaged in is recorded, watched and scanned by the Legion's machine servitors. They watch to learn, study and to scan for any sign of treachery or dishonour. They also watch to monitor the wounded who are brought to the attention of the Sisterhood of War: the fabled Valkyries who bring the fallen back into the hall and record their memories, as soldiers fall in battle, for posterty in the Hall itself. Here they spend eternity in glorious celebration of battle and the Realm. Notable warriors so preserved may join the Realm's Council of the Sword. This respected council speaks for the Realm on all matters concerning war and is accorded great respect.

Valkyries:
The Sisterhood of War includes those assigned to the field of combat trained to preserve the fallen forever as well as administer battlefield healing as well as to sing tribute to the heroes of the Realm. They are a mysterious sect whose ways are ancient. It is also beleived they house many great Seeresses and even a clandestine assassin group.

Assassin:
The realm's assassins are a unique Guild formed to mitigate conflicts between powerful Realm nobles. They are hired to fight on the Assassin Worlds, a unique battlefield created from the last great fief to be destroyed, on behalf of rival nobles who seek satisfaction from one another. The rules of such conflict are strict but basically limit the conflict to the Assassin Worlds and between those they hire to fight though the nobles themselves are free to join in if they so wish. The terms of victory and failure are dictated prior and the Guild recompensed handsomely. However the work of the Assassins is never really believed to be restricted to just these matters. Many Realm prisoners are given the chance, as parole, to join the Guild. Once a member, Assassins can leave through buying their freedom, if they survive.

The Eye:
Some call them Witch Hunters, others call them vultures, but the agents of the Eye are singular in their duty to protect the Realm from all threats born within. They watch the Seers for signs of corruption, trace agents of the evil Maleficium, topple seditious plots to overthrow nobles and escort Realm lords, captains and sovereigns, when travelling abroad. They can be bought in to deal with alien emissaries as well as to investigate the supposed treachery of a Legion Knight-Captain. Many are trained Seers, others are former potentials who failed the training but showed discipline enough to control their potential, others are merely exceptional humans.

Machineling:
Long have robots served the Realm; from the time of their first creation by burgeoning Machine Guild Architechs, to the Mechanic Templars that serve as the Legion's unique robot elite. Machines exist to serve the Realm, but some earn Yeoman status for their performance as exceptional constructs. As such they are given the same rights as any honoured citizen an may even be granted the right to reproduce - which is to say construct a facsimile born of their own memory banks. They are responsible for the new machine and must entrust it to Realm service that it might one day become a Yeoman like it's father-creator.

So my three book format would be thus:

Explorer:
The Wyrd is as old as time and just as wise. It is the storehouse of all that is known and worth knowing, protected by caprcious spirits and served by Wyrdspeakers. You are a Wyrdspeaker accompanied by a retinue charged with finding lost kowledge. Maybe you are a Seer-Navigator summoning the Spirit Familiar of the Void Between Stars to guide your crew through stars unknown. You will be sailing the Great Reach to locate lost Wyrdstones as well as called upon in service of the Throne to deal with rogue Wyrd spirits or the machines that serve them, or perhaps to seek out new sources of High Caliburn that the Monarch may survive.

Soldier:
It is said that every battle is accorded immortality; laid down in word and sound in the Halls of Battle where the honoured fallen are taken. You are a warrior: soldier of the Legion - or maybe a Sister of the Fallen to recover and watch over the heroes in battle to bring their memories back to the Halls of Battle. You fight the enemies of the Legion, protecting the Throne from the depradations of the Maleficium and the ravening Warling horde that constantly harries the Realm's borders.

Investigator:
There are foul things that hide within the confines of the Realm's borders; within its cities men and their allies plot insidious schemes to bring down the Throne. It is the tireless work of the Eye that foils countless myriad plots everyday, unknown to the masses for their own protection. These agents of the Throne are dauntless and incorruptible and their greatest weapon against the fear their enemies breed is fear itself. You are one such agent, a servant of a force to whom even the Throne answers. The Eye even has jurisdiction over those with Seer powers, watching out for corruption.